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jcremin
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Re: Problems with DNS for www.google.com

Fri Feb 12, 2010 9:34 pm

For those who want to defend running a nameserver on windows: a nameserver is as alien to microsoft as Alf to Earth: there will be trouble.
You're making a generalization. It's like saying that just because Ford was established in 1903, you will definitely have problems driving a GM vehicle since they were founded in 1908. Microsoft didn't always have a web server either, but the newer versions of IIS are rock solid and work great. Same with DNS. As long as they follow the RFC's it shouldn't matter what software you are running. Post some real proof that Microsoft's DNS totally breaks the internet and I will listen, but until then, I'm just going to ignore any scare-tactic generalizations.
Just ask yourself: what do the root nameservers run? what do all the TLD nameservers for every ccTLD in the world run? answer: bind.
They probably use bind because that's what they started with and it works. I'll be the first the admit that Windows probably won't scale to nearly the capacity that bind can, but for me, I don't need anything to handle thousands of site, so I'm sticking with what works.
About uptime, reliability: a long long time ago freeBSD was more stable than Linux. Today, they are equal. Sure RouterOS fits in the list of stable platforms because as long as the hardware is good it is stable because the kernel is Linux.
Yes, a solid Kernel and good drivers makes all the difference in the world. I know you keep giving me the 3rd degree about running Windows, but this isn't windows ME I'm running. It used to be less stable, but like you admit, the times change. My server has been solid for 4 years and hasn't crashed once. RouterOS is solid too, and if it ran bind, I would use it. I'm not against Bind or Linux. I just can't justify setting up a new box just to handle my minimal DNS traffic when what I have works fine.


I don't plan to drag on this MS vs Bind debate anymore... Neither is 100% right in every situation... You know bind and that's what you're comfortable with... I know MS and that's what I'm comfortable with. While it may be a good discussion, it is way off topic. Cheers!
 
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Re: Problems with DNS for www.google.com

Fri Feb 12, 2010 10:11 pm

@jcremin: I can generally agree with our post, but don't you find it curious that you are the only one in the world that had this problem without using any OpenDNS servers?? Think!

And like I said: there's bind for windows too.

cheers,
Nick.
 
WirelessRudy
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Re: Problems with DNS for www.google.com

Sat Feb 13, 2010 2:36 am

RouterOS is small and fast as a router. If we start adding DNS server, Webserver, Mailserver, Antivirus ... it will become something else.
Normis,

As you must have noticed on the reactions after this reply of yours I think the point of adding 100% compatible dns server functionality in a separate ROS package is a definite pro. If you want it you use it, if you want to build the fastest router possible, you can. Let the customer decide. Probably most of the users use only half of the supplied packages anyway. I'll bet the some of the ´high-end´ routing packages and options are only used by a relative small group of users.
Some already mentioned, MT customers base is probably more to be found in the field of small to medium sized providers that would surely appreciate an add-on package performing dns.
We all want fast networks, fast reliable dns resolving is just one of the tools to achieve that. Like web proxy can, like MPLS can etc. (And indeed, how does NTP make routers faster? And what is the relation with routing?)

Routerboards are also the perfect platform to run small add-on packages. They are reliable, have long lifetime, are small, are relative cheap, consume little power and are almost perfect to use in low energy (solar, wind) environments. They are perfect even on a sailing boat drifting the Caribbean! :wink:
I have to run a PC now to do mail, dns and web server for my little network. So this machine has to run 24/7 and consumes each hour probably as much power as all my other 8 or so routerboards here in my masts! I have to buy an expensive UPS to make it survive small power cuts while all my boards run at least for 24 hours on one 200A Gel battery costing half the price of the UPS.

These are all factors that especially small and medium sized business are looking for. The moment I could do everything I need to do as a small WISP on rb's this PC-server is the first that will retire....

MT aimed with their RB750(G) to the interesting SOHO market. Well, with dns server (and yes indeed small mail and webserver as extra would make it even more interesting) they will definitely be appreciated by the same group and everybody that wants to run a small network or to become a small and growing provider.

Fine tuning and keeping up with the competition to deliver the ´best price/quality router' with the latest protocols etc. must cost a lot of energy of development in Latvia. Steer a bit of this energy into more widely needed and used functionality like dns, mail, 802.11n (where is the first MT deployment of PtMP setups with 802.11n? So far I can see MT starts to miss the boat here...) etc. and your sales will probably go up faster then by having the high-end users satisfied with latest developments in routing. These big boys having the need to run routers that do the best possible in networking probably stick with their contractual suppliers of Cisco stuff anyway...
It's not Ferrari that satisfies most drivers, its Toyota or Volkswagen!

So MT, stick your heads together and do us (and yourselves) a favour and listen to your wide base of users and make something we want. We want a vehicle that brings us to where we want to go. We are not waiting for a F1 race car, we need a Ford, Volkswagen, Toyota or whatever......
 
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Re: Problems with DNS for www.google.com

Sat Feb 13, 2010 4:50 am

Let's not forget that most of the routerboard's storage is based on flash memory with limited number of writes. With the emergence of flash drives (low power high reliability) and fast MIPS cpus it's perhaps time for MT to rethink their strategy and allow for more write happy applications when using an external drive?

I can see MT competing well in situations where I need to use cisco (btw, there are cheap cisco routers out there now too) and additional PC where I can do it with one or two MT appliances (winbox is a plus as well). Yes I do consider MT not a router but an appliance.

As to DNS, here's a link where adding static dns entries have revealed wakness in current implementation:

http://forum.mikrotik.com/viewtopic.php ... +static+ad
 
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Re: Problems with DNS for www.google.com

Sat Feb 13, 2010 4:52 am

@WirelessRudy: Not that I enjoy shooting in own lines, but don't get too carried away. ;)
Web server is already in MT, only you can't use it for yourself. But even if you could, you'd quickly realize that it's just not it without php, mysql and the list goes on. It's getting a little too complicated to distribute all this, keeping it up to date, etc.. Similar with mail server. It really calls for spam filter and even that antivirus. Also on RB, it would be quick and reliable way to kill the flash memory, because it writes to disk a lot. And it's not really so much disk space on RB anyway. And what applies to both of them, there are tons of different settings that MT would have to make available if those servers should not be only very limited.
Dns on the other hand, does not depend on anything else. It's simple and there are only few needed settings. It doesn't need to write to disk at all (talking about recursive resolver). All it needs is some memory and little cpu time, no problem for almost any RB. Once it gets going, there isn't really much to update, it just works. Many years ago, when I didn't know yet about MT, I set up company's inet gw on Linux and put DJB's dnscache on it. No one touched it since and it'll probably work until the hw goes to Silicon Heaven or some major "once in twenty years" change happens in dns (DNSSEC comes to mind).
 
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Re: Problems with DNS for www.google.com

Sat Feb 13, 2010 5:26 am

Yes, DNScache is rock stable, don't hesitate to use it.

On the rest: they have httpd for other routers and it's doing just fine. Even a couple of pages with stuff to download etc. is nice. no server-side stuff, no Apache.

Disk: what does some USB flash cost? I have thrown these out because they were too small in capacity for today but never because they wear out! I nice tight little SMTP server with a POP3 daemon, some way to rewrite a couple of headers: plenty choice in open source! Blacklisting/anti-virus can be done on the next big SMTP server or on the clients. It is not very productive to go from no functionality to the world's most advanced SMTP server... such statements are only brought forward in an attempt to kill the initiative.

cheers,
Nick.
 
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Re: Problems with DNS for www.google.com

Sat Feb 13, 2010 7:15 pm

hmm, maybe I was getting carried away.
dns, that's really what we want. The other servers is not really important for small WISP's anyway. Plenty of third party soluciotions available on the web so why should I want to do that myself.
But dns, yes we just want a good and fast working dns solucion for clients.

cheers
 
roadracer96
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Re: Problems with DNS for www.google.com

Sat Feb 13, 2010 7:21 pm

hmm, maybe I was getting carried away.
dns, that's really what we want. The other servers is not really important for small WISP's anyway. Plenty of third party soluciotions available on the web so why should I want to do that myself.
But dns, yes we just want a good and fast working dns solucion for clients.

cheers

Then install BIND. I dont know what power costs in Spain, but running a PC with bind should run you more than about $1USD/month. Expensive battery backups? $300 USD will buy you a backup that will run a standard PC for over an hour.
 
jcremin
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Re: Problems with DNS for www.google.com

Sat Feb 13, 2010 8:50 pm

hmm, maybe I was getting carried away.
dns, that's really what we want. The other servers is not really important for small WISP's anyway. Plenty of third party soluciotions available on the web so why should I want to do that myself.
But dns, yes we just want a good and fast working dns solucion for clients.

cheers

Then install BIND. I dont know what power costs in Spain, but running a PC with bind should run you more than about $1USD/month. Expensive battery backups? $300 USD will buy you a backup that will run a standard PC for over an hour.
I'm not sure what you are using to calculate $1/mo, but in April 2009, the average US electric cost was about 12 cents per kilowatt hour, and the trend has been that the price keeps rising. The average desktop computer takes between 100 and 200 watts, so lets compromise at 150 watts. Running it 24 hours a day would cost about $12/mo, or $150/year in electricity. I'm sure some places have cheaper electricity, but I'm also sure that a lot of countries cost much more. Don't forget about some who need to run off of solar or wind power where every watt is valuable.

Now that $300 battery backup might keep it running for an hour, but if you're running a serious ISP, you probably want a lot more than 60 minutes of uptime. While my small towers may only have 2 hours of uptime, I make sure my main tower and servers can run at least 18, and I'm working to get that up to 36 hours when I get a chance to install a second battery. For that kind of uptime, we're now talking about thousands or tens of thousands of dollars for batteries or generators to keep your network online. A routerboard at about 5 watts of consumption will cost a lot less to keep running in an outage, and my $500 battery backup system can now keep my network up for a day and a half.

Also take into account that you typically have a much higher up-front cost for a computer than a routerboard, $500-$1000 for a high grade reliable computer (you don't want to skimp because a DNS server failure would bring your whole network to it's knees). I'm sure a 450G for around $100 including a case and power supply is powerful enough to run quite a snappy DNS server, and it would be much less prone to component failure than a regular PC.

My 2 cents...
 
WirelessRudy
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Re: Problems with DNS for www.google.com

Sun Feb 14, 2010 12:51 am

Then install BIND. I dont know what power costs in Spain, but running a PC with bind should run you more than about $1USD/month. Expensive battery backups? $300 USD will buy you a backup that will run a standard PC for over an hour.
I'm not sure what you are using to calculate $1/mo, but in April 2009, the average US electric cost was about 12 cents per kilowatt hour, and the trend has been that the price keeps rising. The average desktop computer takes between 100 and 200 watts, so lets compromise at 150 watts. Running it 24 hours a day would cost about $12/mo, or $150/year in electricity. I'm sure some places have cheaper electricity, but I'm also sure that a lot of countries cost much more. Don't forget about some who need to run off of solar or wind power where every watt is valuable.

Now that $300 battery backup might keep it running for an hour, but if you're running a serious ISP, you probably want a lot more than 60 minutes of uptime. While my small towers may only have 2 hours of uptime, I make sure my main tower and servers can run at least 18, and I'm working to get that up to 36 hours when I get a chance to install a second battery. For that kind of uptime, we're now talking about thousands or tens of thousands of dollars for batteries or generators to keep your network online. A routerboard at about 5 watts of consumption will cost a lot less to keep running in an outage, and my $500 battery backup system can now keep my network up for a day and a half.

Also take into account that you typically have a much higher up-front cost for a computer than a routerboard, $500-$1000 for a high grade reliable computer (you don't want to skimp because a DNS server failure would bring your whole network to it's knees). I'm sure a 450G for around $100 including a case and power supply is powerful enough to run quite a snappy DNS server, and it would be much less prone to component failure than a regular PC.

My 2 cents...

All true. We have at least once a year a serious power cut lasting several hours. I have been lucky each time that I was home to start my gen after some hours to charge my UPS. Units running on batteries could last at least several hours more....
Price/quality of battery-charger compared to UPS is 300% better option I learned the hard way...
Same counts for rb hardware compared to PC hardware.

And yes, why not save some bucks on electricity. "Think green" is the fashion nowadays and if this can be achieved without any loss of service and quality, why not go for low energy demand hardware like rb?
But now we are seriously drifting off-topic here.

The message and conclusion of this topic should be that the problem of the initiator gets solved and it seems to me the best route to go for MT would be to make a dns-server package for ROS
There are plenty arguments given for this and solucions to the initial problem given so far are basically nothing more then sympton curing, or just avoidance by going another road.

The intial question was "How can MT solve a problem with dns." and the answer should read; "MT develops a full dns-server package."
 
roadracer96
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Re: Problems with DNS for www.google.com

Sun Feb 14, 2010 8:18 pm

MT has a DNS caching package. It just doesnt work with ONE provider.

Sorry. I forgot to carry a 1 when multiplying the power consumption. Regardless. It isnt a big deal. Cheap is cheap.

Where do you run your mail servers, webpages, etc, etc, etc.

I guess Im done with this argument. Ive worked for ISPs that cheap out on shit or cant bring themselves to pay someone to set something up right or take the time to learn to do it themselves. Ive had the same basic argument many times over the years. At this point, we have been arguing it for months, applying workarounds, and pointing the finger at MT. The whole time, you and your customers have been the ones suffering. Is that worth $10ish/month in electricity? I dunno.

Personally, I would rather see expansion of the VPN components of MT WAY before a full featured DNS or mail server. At least those are "native" to a router/firewall.
 
jcremin
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Re: Problems with DNS for www.google.com

Sun Feb 14, 2010 8:40 pm

MT has a DNS caching package. It just doesnt work with ONE provider.
Yeah, this has gone off topic from the specific problem. While not directly related to the original topic, it still would be nice to have a little more dns functionality than what is currently offered.
Sorry. I forgot to carry a 1 when multiplying the power consumption. Regardless. It isnt a big deal. Cheap is cheap.
Depends, electricity costs much more in some countries, and like we discussed, there can be a heck of a lot more to the cost of a server than just the electricity. Plus, we're talking about reliability too, not pure costs.
Where do you run your mail servers, webpages, etc, etc, etc.
I lease my servers from a real datacenter, but there are many other services available. Once I grow large enough, I will probably move my email over to Google apps. There's nothing saying that an ISP has to offer email or web sites in the first place, so a DNS server could be the only "real" server that is required for the network to be operational.

Not trying to say that anyone is right or wrong, just stating that running DNS on a real server might be appropriate for some, while alternative solutions might be better for others.
 
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Re: Problems with DNS for www.google.com

Sun Feb 14, 2010 8:55 pm

Not a single network has the same necessities. That's why we will never find standard answers or solutions to many issue or questions we come across in this forum.

As user in the past I never understood why I could not have my own mail address but was bound to that one of my provider. Nowadays we have hotmail, gmail and many others so why should I actually as a provider want to run mail servers? Or web or file servers? Unless you want to make the extra bug I personally think others can do that much better then me and it leaves the client its freedom.

On the other hand, dns is a basic tool for networking and browsing on the internet. That has to work flawless and fast.
It did it for me with MT-cache in combination with OpenDns for a long time. And then the google issue popped up last November.
I tried to install BIND two years ago but ended frustrated due lack of knowledge on how to set a reliable system up to run something like BIND.

Most of the knowledge needed for running networks has to be learned. Everybody has been or is in that boat and up to some months ago I never had the real need to have an alternative for MT-dns chache.
Now I have I simply lack the time to spend in studying BIND again. I need to run my network and have higher priorities on my work list then to solve a problem that is cured by a simple switch to my ISP's dns servers.
But it nevertheless would be a great add-on if MT could make something needed to close this topic.

R.
 
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Re: Problems with DNS for www.google.com

Fri Feb 19, 2010 12:58 am

Hey guys can we move the argument to a new thread and get on with working out what is happening and fixing the problem... I'll use whatever's to hand & yes I have a windows XP box running bind...

I have an install with the same problem, What I did notice was:

my dns servers are resolver1.opendns.com and resolver2.opendns.com which are the ones the ISP gave me!!!

www.google.com is a CNAME for www.l.google.com

www.l.google.com wasn't in the cache.

I didn't think I had the opendns redirection entry initially but it was there just now and when I flushed the cache it was the only entry for www.google.com with a 30sec TTL. Before the cache flush I had CNAME entries for www.google.com that pointed to both the opendns redirect AND the www.l.google.com so I wonder if that is the root of the problem - at some point the MT has managed to get the 'proper' google CNAME entry as well as the opendns one?

Prior to the cache flush it was the same problem:-

doing an nslookup (against the MT) for www.google.com returned ' No address (A) records available for www.google.com'
doing an nslookup for www.l.google.com returned several (6) IP addresses which were then returned by an nslookup for www.google.com.

Looking in the cache the www.l.google.com A records have a TTL of 5 minutes which counted down, when it reached 0 it started counting up...?? & the query for www.google.com failed again...

It seems to be the l.google.com domain that is causing the problems as I just noticed some entries for
youtube-ui.l.google.com that are showing the same counting up behaviour...

Why did does the TTL count up???? Why doesn't MT flush & requery an expired entry??

aaargh....

David
 
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Re: Problems with DNS for www.google.com

Thu Feb 25, 2010 12:34 pm

Hi.

I still having DNS problems but not with google, i made static entries and everithing it´s working ok, now the problems is with es.search.yahoo.es

I made the same procedure to fix it, add stratic entrie but no luck.

Any idea?

Thnks
 
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Re: Problems with DNS for www.google.com

Thu Feb 25, 2010 7:38 pm

I have the same problem i.e. unable to reach google.com. I am using simple workaround which is changing IP by using Mask Surf application. But I can not explain why this works:)
 
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Re: Problems with DNS for www.google.com

Fri Feb 26, 2010 12:31 am

Hi.

I still having DNS problems but not with google, i made static entries and everithing it´s working ok, now the problems is with es.search.yahoo.es

I made the same procedure to fix it, add stratic entrie but no luck.

Any idea?

Thnks
Making static entries for domains that you are not authoritive for is the beginning of the end. You break a system that has proven to work for 30 years.

What is your DNS config and what does dig or nslookup show?

cheers,
Nick.
 
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Re: Problems with DNS for www.google.com

Fri Feb 26, 2010 11:54 am

Hi.

I still having DNS problems but not with google, i made static entries and everithing it´s working ok, now the problems is with es.search.yahoo.es

I made the same procedure to fix it, add stratic entrie but no luck.

Any idea?

Thnks
Making static entries for domains that you are not authoritive for is the beginning of the end. You break a system that has proven to work for 30 years.

What is your DNS config and what does dig or nslookup show?

cheers,
Nick.

I don´t know if it´s the beginning of the end but this worked for me with google.

"The temporary solution for this problem is
Code:
/ip dns static
add address=208.69.34.230 disabled=no name=www.google.com ttl=1d
add address=208.69.34.231 disabled=no name=www.google.com ttl=1d"


Respuesta no autoritativa:
Nombre: rc.europe.fyeu.b.yahoo.com
Address: 87.248.121.75
Aliases: es.yahoo.es

>
 
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Re: Problems with DNS for www.google.com

Fri Feb 26, 2010 5:17 pm

Sure looks like the same problem. What is your DNS config, which servers are you using?

Also, what does a dig/nslookup tell you about es.yahoo.es ?

cheers,
Nick.
 
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Re: Problems with DNS for www.google.com

Tue Mar 02, 2010 2:43 pm

Sure looks like the same problem. What is your DNS config, which servers are you using?

Also, what does a dig/nslookup tell you about es.yahoo.es ?

cheers,
Nick.
First DNS Server 8.8.8.8
Second DNS Server 8.8.4.4

nslookup

Non-Authorative answer
Name: rc.europe.fyeu.b.yahoo.com
Address: 87.248.121.75
Aliases: es.yahoo.es


Thanks.
 
und3ath
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Re: Problems with DNS for www.google.com

Tue Apr 20, 2010 5:29 pm

Nothing new with this issue? I am still having problems with all google services (google.com, gmail.com,...)
 
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hilton
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Re: Problems with DNS for www.google.com

Tue Apr 20, 2010 5:41 pm

I gave up on OpenDNS and I now use my local ISP's DNS and it's much better. Pity there's no local cloud based web filtering service that's friendly on the pocket.
 
jcremin
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Re: Problems with DNS for www.google.com

Tue Apr 20, 2010 8:03 pm

I gave up on OpenDNS
Same here. No problems using Google's Public DNS service. Wasn't worth my time to keep fighting to find the problem.
 
pedja
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Re: Problems with DNS for www.google.com

Tue Apr 20, 2010 11:49 pm

There are other public DNS servers. I tried several and got rid og problem. I've published long list of puiblic DNS at http://pedja.supurovic.net/kako-upotreb ... provajdera

You can also use http://www.grc.com/dns/benchmark.htm (free tool) to check speed of number od DNS servers which would help you choose which one to use.
 
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Re: Problems with DNS for www.google.com

Mon Mar 16, 2020 6:56 am

Hi, I am Om Prakash Yadav
When i try to ping 8.8.8.8 it says request timeout but when i ping google.com it's working fine.
I am using mikrotik router rb 1100ah. How to solve this issue??

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