so i got a wireless internet from a local isp , but sometimes my DNS ping time goes as high as 300 ! but when everything is normal its around 2-3 ms.

my ccq is above 90% , and signal Strength is around -60 and Signal To Noise 40 db
also the frequency that im using has a very low usage , and i changed to other low usage frequencies and the problem didn't solve( my bandwidth is empty when the ping time goes high and ping time to my access point and my radio is 1ms since im using a lan connection)


my isp says its because of the noise around the area that i live !!! but wouldn't that effect ccq or signal Strength ? and when the ping time goes from 3 to 300 my CCQ or my signal Strength does not change !

so are they lying to me ? is there a problem with their routers or something ? or can it be actually the noise from my area ?


also my radio is mikrotik sextant g 5hpnd

PSA , when the DNS ping time goes from 3ms to 300ms , the signal strength , CCQ or signal to noise , non of them changes ! so it just goes from 3ms to 300ms all of the sudden without any change to any parameters !

and distance is 14km

PSA , when the DNS ping time goes from 3ms to 300ms , the signal strength , CCQ or signal to noise , non of them changes ! so it just goes from 3ms to 300ms all of the sudden without any change to any parameters !

and distance is 2km

Perhaps it would be better to call it "interference" vs "noise". But yes, you can have poor QoS due to interference, and still see the radio stats you're reporting. For example SNR is measured between received signal strength and average background noise level -- but if interference is bursty (which it typically is) it will not factor in the average background noise level. Similarly, interference will have no impact on the RSSI. This is because when the signal is received, it is always received at the same level. Problem is : sometimes it is not received! (due to interference drowning it out).

PSA , when the DNS ping time goes from 3ms to 300ms , the signal strength , CCQ or signal to noise , non of them changes ! so it just goes from 3ms to 300ms all of the sudden without any change to any parameters !

and distance is 2km

Perhaps it would be better to call it "interference" vs "noise". But yes, you can have poor QoS due to interference, and still see the radio stats you're reporting. For example SNR is measured between received signal strength and average background noise level -- but if interference is bursty (which it typically is) it will not factor in the average background noise level. Similarly, interference will have no impact on the RSSI. This is because when the signal is received, it is always received at the same level. Problem is : sometimes it is not received! (due to interference drowning it out).

Thanks for the reply!

can you simplify what you just said ? because i dont have much education about wireless stuff
so this QoS that you are saying , can i see it in my winbox ? is there anyway that i can be sure what is causing the problem ? i just wanna make sure its not a problem with the ISP ( shouldn't them be able to fix the problem ?)

can you explain more about this interference ?! is it same as Frequency usage in WinBox ?




also i spoke with a wireless expert , and he said i should get the ip address of the radio that i'm connecting to (radio of the ISP) and then go the Bandwidth Test (in Winbox) and then type IP address and see if the link is ok ( he didn't explain what is considered OK and what should i do in there ) if it was ok then the problem is not the noise and its the ISP , but i could not see the Radio IP address in the Winbox neighbors since the isp does not allow customers to see the IP address of their radio , and they didn't give the ip to me , my question what is this bandwidth test and why they are not giving the IP address of their radio to me ?!


and my last question is , how can i fix this problem ?! is there any hope ?!


PSA. distance is 14km , not 2km

Do a test:

Start an FTP download from an internet server (preferably a big file). Make sure you download it though the IP address of the server.

For example: ftp://48.25.26.145/pub/........ (fill in the IP address of the correct FTP server).

Run it when everything is "fine", when the DNS queries are 3 mSec.

note the speed, average.

Then run the same test when the DNS ping rises to 300. Do you still have the same speed?


Also, change the DNS servers to Google DNS: 8.8.8.8 and 8.8.4.4 or OpenDNS: 208.67.222.222

Do a test:

Start an FTP download from an internet server (preferably a big file). Make sure you download it though the IP address of the server.

For example: ftp://48.25.26.145/pub/........ (fill in the IP address of the correct FTP server).

Run it when everything is "fine", when the DNS queries are 3 mSec.

note the speed, average.

Then run the same test when the DNS ping rises to 300. Do you still have the same speed?


Also, change the DNS servers to Google DNS: 8.8.8.8 and 8.8.4.4 or OpenDNS: 208.67.222.222

what do you mean by a FTP download ? i googled FTP download but didnt find any link like what you said
can you give me a link ?

but my overall average download speed goes from 800-900KB/s ( when 3ms ) to 200-500KB/s(when 200-300ms) and i used Internet Download Manager To calculate

also when you say change the DNS servers to 8.8.8.8 , you mean i should change both the prefered dns server and alternative DNS server to 8.8.8.8 ?



also i posted this somewhere else and someone replied with this :

Since you are in an open frequency you can't count on you getting data across the links every single time so the ping time increases as the retry occurs.

is he right ? is this a normal thing ?

Correct. The IP for the FTP server is an example.

this is a real one:

ftp://194.109.21.27/pub/test. There you will find a dummy file of 100 Mb or 1 Gb.

And yes, the DNS can be primary and secondary.

Correct. The IP for the FTP server is an example.

this is a real one:

ftp://194.109.21.27/pub/test. There you will find a dummy file of 100 Mb or 1 Gb.

And yes, the DNS can be primary and secondary.

so i tired that and the result was same as before , went from 800KB/s to 400KB/s when the ping raise up

also changing the DNS to that made the ping time even go higher sometimes so i had to put it back to default

also someone said this on another forum :

Since you are in an open frequency you can't count on you getting data across the links every single time so the ping time increases as the retry occurs.

is this guy right ? this problem is a normal thing with wireless internet and has nothing to do with ISP ?!

Yes, he "can" be right. To investigate it will require a lot of effort, regarding finding out the "interferer", and even then, if you found it, what are you going to do about the guy (or woman) who messes up your link.....

Solutions:

1. Switch to 5 GHz. both ends should support it (the LHG is pretty cheap, 59$ per unit (you need two of them).
2. Switch to a different channel. Both sides should do that.
3. Use a more directive antenna, cover it with a dome if needed. But that might not work well, since the interference can also be at the ISP's end.

Yes, he "can" be right. To investigate it will require a lot of effort, regarding finding out the "interferer", and even then, if you found it, what are you going to do about the guy (or woman) who messes up your link.....

Solutions:

1. Switch to 5 GHz. both ends should support it (the LHG is pretty cheap, 59$ per unit (you need two of them).
2. Switch to a different channel. Both sides should do that.
3. Use a more directive antenna, cover it with a dome if needed. But that might not work well, since the interference can also be at the ISP's end.

but can you explain why if there is a "interferer" shouldn't that effect the ccq or signal Strength or signal to noise ? i even tried a frequency with a low usage but it didn't work , as you may already know i'm not an expert in wireless stuff and i just gathered some information from different sources so if you help me understand why this isn't effecting any of these parameters that would be great

also what do you mean by switching to 5GHz and channel ? you mean Band and Channel Width in my wlan1 setting ?if so , my band is on 5GHz-A/N and channel width is 20MHz , should i change them ?

interference as an example: is when you talk to someone on the street, and there is some noise form cars, busses etc... When there is not too much, it is fine. When tere is a lot of car traffic, you should "shout" harder. And if you are in a disco or club, you really need to shout very very hard, and move your mouth close to the ear of your partner.

Well, you and your partner are the dishes of Mikrotik. The noise are other people.

Noise is always present, and you cannot avoid it. You can though make your signal so loud that the noise influence is minimized.

So OK, you are already on 5 GHz. Try to change the channel number. Not the bandwidth yet. The narrower the bandwidth the better for interference, but less throughput.

So do not change the channel width yet, but try different channels. 5 Ghz band has much more channels, and you will probably find a good one .

interference as an example: is when you talk to someone on the street, and there is some noise form cars, busses etc... When there is not too much, it is fine. When tere is a lot of car traffic, you should "shout" harder. And if you are in a disco or club, you really need to shout very very hard, and move your mouth close to the ear of your partner.

Well, you and your partner are the dishes of Mikrotik. The noise are other people.

Noise is always present, and you cannot avoid it. You can though make your signal so loud that the noise influence is minimized.

So OK, you are already on 5 GHz. Try to change the channel number. Not the bandwidth yet. The narrower the bandwidth the better for interference, but less throughput.

So do not change the channel width yet, but try different channels. 5 Ghz band has much more channels, and you will probably find a good one .

sorry if im asking too much i'm just trying to learn , but in your example , i can hear the noise right ? like in the street i can know that there is a noise coming from some where ( maybe not knowing the source , but at least knowing its because of noise)
but in my situation everything stays the same when that "noise" comes around , as i said my CCQ and Signal and Signal To Noise stays the same when ping time goes as high as 400ms , shouldn't this noise effect something ? like shouldn't that effect CCQ or something ?!

maybe i'm missing something ? like another parameter that i dont know of ? like so far i learned about CCQ , Signal strength , signal to noise , and frequency usage , is there something else ?






also when you said try different channels , how should i change channel ? like in wireless tab i should go to scanner tab and then search for another antenna or something ? because my isp has another "antenna " nearby but that one has another problem , when i download anything the CCQ goes from 80-90% to 20% and then i get disconnected from the internet! so its unusable

You can hear the noise. See the spectral scan from both ends and select the best frequency. Also use the dish antennas with side shielding to suppress the noise from the environment.

Let your isp to solve the problem for you. He should have the necessary experience and you can learn from him.

Let your isp to solve the problem for you. He should have the necessary experience and you can learn from him.

well i don't think they are really good at solving problems because everytime i call them they are like "hmmm no its normal for a wireless internet to have 400ms even though CCQ and signal are GREAT!" and when i ask them why when my ping time goes from 3ms to 400 my CCQ or singal does not change they don't answer !

You can hear the noise. See the spectral scan from both ends and select the best frequency. Also use the dish antennas with side shielding to suppress the noise from the environment.

what do you mean see the spectral scan ?
and i already selected the frequency with lowest usage , also what do you mean use side shielding for dish antennas ? i don't use a dish antenna i just have a mikrotik radio , and i don't have access to my ISP's antennas

please answer this question , how can it be possible to go from 3 ms to 300-400ms ( DNS ping time ) without any change in CCQ (90%) and signal (-60) and signal to noise (40db) ?? ( without usage of bandwidth )
shouldn't this noise effect something ? i also talked to a wireless expert(as he claimed to be ) and he said if there was a noise problem and overall a problem with the link , it should have effected the CCQ or at least something

Well, I agree with Jarda.

Let the ISP solve it. If they cannot, then they are not capable in doing this. Select a different one (probably they are the only one with "high speed" internet), so then you are stuck with them...

Well, I agree with Jarda.

Let the ISP solve it. If they cannot, then they are not capable in doing this. Select a different one (probably they are the only one with "high speed" internet), so then you are stuck with them...

well the problem is i already spend money on that radio and they won't give my money back
and there is no other ISP around my house !

so this is why i'm asking you guys to help me figure this out , because if this is not a noise problem and in fact it's a problem with them then i might just sue them , but before i do that i need to make sure about what is causing this problem
and all i'm asking is to answer the question i asked above :



how can it be possible to go from 3 ms to 300-400ms ( DNS ping time ) without any change in CCQ (90%) and signal (-60) and signal to noise (40db) ?? ( without usage of bandwidth )
shouldn't this noise effect something ? like dropping the CCQ ?? i also talked to a wireless expert(as he claimed to be ) and he said if there was a noise problem and overall a problem with the link , it should have effected the CCQ or at least something

also i need to state that i use the mikrotik's console -> tools > ping to calculate my dns's ping time and this is a problem because when my dns ping time goes from 3 to 400 , then for example my google.com ping time goes from 80ms to 500-600 ms and so other websites too ! and download speed goes from 900KB/s to 300-200KB/s






PSA : i'm going to say again that i'm not an expert on wireless stuff and i gathered information from different places so if i'm missing something here please let me know ! any help would be appreciated!!!

You should isolate the problem first. Are you sure that the delay is on your last mile? Maybe it is somewhere in or behind the network of your isp. It's always better for consumer to buy the service delivered to his ethernet port leaving all the technology on the isp. Then its not your business what is wrong with the connectivity.... But its too late now. There is option to nicely negotiate with the isp to help you or to hire a local independent consultant to either help you to connect or to proove the origin of the problem. You cannot succeed with blind help over the discussion forum with this especially if you don't have own experience.

You should isolate the problem first. Are you sure that the delay is on your last mile? Maybe it is somewhere in or behind the network of your isp. It's always better for consumer to buy the service delivered to his ethernet port leaving all the technology on the isp. Then its not your business what is wrong with the connectivity.... But its too late now. There is option to nicely negotiate with the isp to help you or to hire a local independent consultant to either help you to connect or to proove the origin of the problem. You cannot succeed with blind help over the discussion forum with this especially if you don't have own experience.

but can you at least say that is it possible to be a noise problem even when the CCQ signal and frequency usage are ok ? and how can i know this "delay" is on my last mile?!

i mean all i'm asking is this : how can it be a NOISE problem if ping time goes from 3ms to 400ms without any change to CCQ ?

your answer can be as technical as you want but all i'm asking is this , is it possible or not ?



there is gotta be a way to at least locate the problem with the access i have , i know i don't have access to isp antenna and stuff but i'm not even asking for a fix !!!!! all i'm asking is that someone with good knowledge of wireless connection and mikrotik radios to tell me something like " YES , even with 100% CCQ and best signal possible and a Frequency with lowest usage , it still can be because of the noise , because ..... (technical reason or personal experience or ...) "


and i don't know any local independent consultant! so my only hope is you guys since my isp won't be trying to solve the problem anymore because they are sure its the noise !

Ok. There can be whatever. I told you to see spectral scan and to use side shielded antenna. May happen that it is badly aligned or there is noise on Ap side that makes your signal bad. Hard to say without local observation.

Ok. There can be whatever. I told you to see spectral scan and to use side shielded antenna. May happen that it is badly aligned or there is noise on Ap side that makes your signal bad. Hard to say without local observation.

sorry for the late reply
but can you teach me how to do this spectral scan ? there is no spectral scan in my tools tab in my mikrotik's console

Not sure how it is on your place, but for me the google works fine:
https://www.google.cz/search?q=mikrotik ... 8wfnt4HgBA
first link:
http://wiki.mikrotik.com/wiki/Manual:Spectral_scan

Also check the spectral scan in the Dude...

Not sure how it is on your place, but for me the google works fine:
https://www.google.cz/search?q=mikrotik ... 8wfnt4HgBA
first link:
http://wiki.mikrotik.com/wiki/Manual:Spectral_scan

Also check the spectral scan in the Dude...

yes i checked google first ofcourse ! i saw that "the dude" program too 
but as i said i'm really newbee with these stuff , so i should install this "The Dude" how ? i went to download page and it was some sort of Update for my Mikrotik radio ? 

Get more familiar with ros and try the spectrum analyzer from the console first.

The dude is something you will need more time to get in.
See the manual before you start with it: http://wiki.mikrotik.com/wiki/Manual:The_Dude

Just reading the topic, and occurred to me:

Could it be a problem with too deep queues? Maybe the wireless signal is ok - but the bandwidth is saturated. With a deep queue there would be no packet loss - but the latency would suffer...

Something Jarda mentioned is very appropriate and hasn't been mentioned by either of you since:
The bottleneck might not be your wireless link at all.

Consider that whatever tower you're talking to, the ISP must have a good connection reaching that tower from the rest of their network. Your link could be the best one in the history of humanity with 0 packets lost in ten trillion packets, 160db signal to noise ratio, etc.... but if the ISP has problems reaching the tower you're connected to, then it won't matter.

Analogy: you could have a race track quality driveway and road in front of your house - it could be easy to drive 400km/hr on this with the right vehicle, and never crash, and there are never cars in the way, but if the road that your driveway connects to is busy with cars and has lots of potholes, then it doesn't matter how fast you can drive on your driveway, because the next road in your route to ANYWHERE will be slow....

Here's how to test this:
Use the traceroute tool in your SXT to see a list of IP addresses that your packets must travel through to reach some destination. Choose some well known address like 8.8.8.8 as your test destination. Then note the IP addresses in the first, second, and third hops.

In both good and bad conditions, try ping tests to each of these 3 addresses. If the first hop (most likely it will be at the tower you're connecting to) stays good even when pings to DNS server, and other ISP hops get bad, then your wireless is fine, and the problem exists further upstream.

Other clues to look for if the first hop's ping never gets worse:
second or third hop IP changes consistently with the performance changes (usually means that a link is failing to a backup link and getting congested)
First hop past your ISP's network starts getting bad pings (means the ISP's upstream bandwidth is congested)

Something Jarda mentioned is very appropriate and hasn't been mentioned by either of you since:
The bottleneck might not be your wireless link at all.

Consider that whatever tower you're talking to, the ISP must have a good connection reaching that tower from the rest of their network. Your link could be the best one in the history of humanity with 0 packets lost in ten trillion packets, 160db signal to noise ratio, etc.... but if the ISP has problems reaching the tower you're connected to, then it won't matter.

Analogy: you could have a race track quality driveway and road in front of your house - it could be easy to drive 400km/hr on this with the right vehicle, and never crash, and there are never cars in the way, but if the road that your driveway connects to is busy with cars and has lots of potholes, then it doesn't matter how fast you can drive on your driveway, because the next road in your route to ANYWHERE will be slow....

Here's how to test this:
Use the traceroute tool in your SXT to see a list of IP addresses that your packets must travel through to reach some destination. Choose some well known address like 8.8.8.8 as your test destination. Then note the IP addresses in the first, second, and third hops.

In both good and bad conditions, try ping tests to each of these 3 addresses. If the first hop (most likely it will be at the tower you're connecting to) stays good even when pings to DNS server, and other ISP hops get bad, then your wireless is fine, and the problem exists further upstream.

Other clues to look for if the first hop's ping never gets worse:
second or third hop IP changes consistently with the performance changes (usually means that a link is failing to a backup link and getting congested)
First hop past your ISP's network starts getting bad pings (means the ISP's upstream bandwidth is congested)

thanks for the reply
as for the traceroute test , i already did that , and the problems starts from the second hop
the first hop (192.168.1.1) is my Mikrotik Console address , which is 1ms all the times
and the second is my ISP's DNS address which starts with 85.15 ... , but the real weird thing is that the IP address of the RADIO of my ISP ( the radio that my radio is connecting too ) is not shown in traceroute ! and they wont give it to me for "security reason" but i don't get how it doesnt show itself in traceroute , also they blocked it in WinBox neighbors tab so it wont show there either !

so what should i do now ? 

and thanks to jadra for replying again , but you think i'm going to be able to use this spectral scan considering my knowledge in wireless stuff is about 0% ?! i guess i have to study a bit about it for now and understand what it is and how to use it but thanks anyways guys for all the replies 


also thanks to Paternot for replying , but what do you mean by the bandwidth is saturated ? can you explain please  and also do you think this actually could be our problem ? how to determine that this is the problem or not ? 

also thanks to Paternot for replying , but what do you mean by the bandwidth is saturated ? can you explain please  and also do you think this actually could be our problem ? how to determine that this is the problem or not ? 

My suggestion was basically what Paternot was telling you to do, but spelled out in steps... the basic idea was to determine whether your first hop is in fact the problem, or if it exists somewhere further up the line. It appears that your first hop is indeed the problem, but pings/traceroutes can only give clues, not definitive proof that the bandwidth is saturated. (i.e. running at 100% capacity)
One thing to do if you can log into your own Mikrotik is watch the wireless connection statistics when things are bad - Is the CCQ dropping (it should be above 90%)? Is the speed dropping to low values? If these numbers start looking bad, then it means there's an issue with the wireless transmission itself. If not, then it means that the problem is either at the tower or somewhere further upstream from the antenna you're connected to. 

As to how you don't see the next hop, this can be obscured in many ways, and it could even be the case that your connection goes through several devices and links before it reaches the next IP hop, and ping/traceroute cannot diagnose any of that infrastructure... However, if your first hop (above your own router of course) then that's something to complain about to the ISP.

also thanks to Paternot for replying , but what do you mean by the bandwidth is saturated ? can you explain please  and also do you think this actually could be our problem ? how to determine that this is the problem or not ? 

I mean that they (the ISP) may have sold (too much) more bandwidth than they have. I'm thinking that maybe your signal is 100% okay, but there are too many users on the tower. In order to keep http "clean", they made a huge QOS queue. The result is exactly what You are complaining about: high latency and zero packet loss.
When the network load gets down, your service improves.
Well, I can't be sure of this - I just THINK that's the problem. But would explain everything...

also thanks to Paternot for replying , but what do you mean by the bandwidth is saturated ? can you explain please  and also do you think this actually could be our problem ? how to determine that this is the problem or not ? 

My suggestion was basically what Paternot was telling you to do, but spelled out in steps... the basic idea was to determine whether your first hop is in fact the problem, or if it exists somewhere further up the line. It appears that your first hop is indeed the problem, but pings/traceroutes can only give clues, not definitive proof that the bandwidth is saturated. (i.e. running at 100% capacity)
One thing to do if you can log into your own Mikrotik is watch the wireless connection statistics when things are bad - Is the CCQ dropping (it should be above 90%)? Is the speed dropping to low values? If these numbers start looking bad, then it means there's an issue with the wireless transmission itself. If not, then it means that the problem is either at the tower or somewhere further upstream from the antenna you're connected to. 

As to how you don't see the next hop, this can be obscured in many ways, and it could even be the case that your connection goes through several devices and links before it reaches the next IP hop, and ping/traceroute cannot diagnose any of that infrastructure... However, if your first hop (above your own router of course) then that's something to complain about to the ISP.

well my first hop is 192.168.1.1 and its the address of my radio and its fine with no problem
the problem starts from the next hop
and yes the CCQ stays above 90% when my ping goes from 3ms to 400ms , but i don't know about that speed you said , what is this speed and wheere can i find it ? also my signal streagth stays the same aswell
, and i talked to a wireless expert , and he said it might be because of the old stuff that my ISP is using for their wireless connections 
he said they are using stuff which was built in 1999 , IEEE 802.11a-1999 he said , which i have no clue what this but he said they are using this which is very old and this might be the problem , what do you think ?

also here is the spectral scan that our friend asked : 

The modulation rate is the speed that the radios are actually using to transmit to each other. I think they're called TX/RX rate in Mikrotik.

If these stay stable during poor performance times then the most likely cause for your problem is that the ISP's wireless sector is too oversubscribed- i.e. Has run out of bandwidth.

Judging from the spectrum scan, there's not much room in the area for another channel, either.

The modulation rate is the speed that the radios are actually using to transmit to each other. I think they're called TX/RX rate in Mikrotik.

If these stay stable during poor performance times then the most likely cause for your problem is that the ISP's wireless sector is too oversubscribed- i.e. Has run out of bandwidth.

Judging from the spectrum scan, there's not much room in the area for another channel, either.

yes the TX/RX stays stable aswell 
so you think my isp is lying to me ? because they are saying that it's because of the "Noise" from the area around my house !  
so if they asked me how i'm sure that its not the noise , i should just tell them because that CCQ , Signal and TX/RX stays stable and in good condition during this problem right ? 

also what are your thoughts about them using this IEEE 802.11a which is from 1999 ? could this be the problem ? that they are using old and outdated equipment ?

so you think my isp is lying to me ? because they are saying that it's because of the "Noise" from the area around my house !  
so if they asked me how i'm sure that its not the noise , i should just tell them because that CCQ , Signal and TX/RX stays stable and in good condition during this problem right ? 

also what are your thoughts about them using this IEEE 802.11a which is from 1999 ? could this be the problem ? that they are using old and outdated equipment ?

They are not necessarily lying.
1) By "noise" they may mean the number of clients. Yes, it is not technically correct to use the term in this way. But sometimes we need to simplify things.
2) Maybe the noise is between their tower and their network, not between their tower and you.
3) They could be lying, of course. One can always be lying.

Well you can say with certainty that it's not your wireless connection itself that is to blame.

If the ISP has placed too many customers on your sector, then it would just be getting too much demand at peak hours.

Whatever the case, your link is not getting any interference.