RB411 and RB 433AH with XR2 radios - 200 concurrent users
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derrick32
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RB411 and RB 433AH with XR2 radios - 200 concurrent users

by derrick32 » Thu Mar 15, 2012 7:14 am

Hello all,
Im setting up a seminar for a company. I have had great luck with Mikrotiks at small office/home office setups where there would be no more than 10-20 users at one given time. Well now I have to put Mikrotik to the test. I have one large ballroom (ROOM A) filled with 200 users some with Ipads, some with iphones, maybe a few laptops.

I currently have in my inventory:

15 brand new RB 411's
2 Routerboard 433AH's
Enough Ubiquity XR2 radios to populate all RB's

I am willing to purchase more inventory to make this job work, if i have to. I also have a large stock of Ubiquiti equipment (nanostations and pico stations), but would rather use MikroTik. I need advice on how this should work, or at least if my thoughts are outlandish and stupid :? . This is what I envision:

ROOM A (10MB of TOTAL Bandwith)

(5) RB 411's with (5) XR2 N Radios ----------> 20-30 users per routerboard/radio should yield me APPROX 100-150 connections

(1) RB433AH with (3) XR2 N radios ----------> 20 users per radio should yield me APPROX 60 connections

ROOM A total connections = 160-210 connections

Does this sound sane? Most of these numbers came from my reading on forums and online.
Can these devices carry roughly this many connections?
I need to disperse the 10MB's fairly evenly, does anyone have any tips so users can maintain connection?
I may add one more RB 411 to bump that total closer to 200 (at the minimum side), would that be a good idea??

I do know that I will need to seperate my channels accordingly as to not create channel conflicts or over congestionwhen using N. Each of these deviceswill be wired into a switch and the networking will be done on a RB1100. I want them just to serve wifi and the RB 1100 to hand out addresses.

The one good thing is that I will be able to run cables to all of them and I wont need any wireless links to rely on. Can anyone direct me to any materials regarding what i want to do, or EVEN BETTER personal experiences with this??

Thanks,
Derrick

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andreacoppini
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RB411 and RB 433AH with XR2 radios - 200 concurrent users

by andreacoppini » Thu Mar 15, 2012 12:40 pm

Remember that in 2ghz you only have 3 non overlapping channels available. In your big room, I would install the 5 APs, but only enable the radio on 3 of them (ch 1, 6, 11).

Monitor them during the conference, then if you start seeing excessive data loss errors in the ap logs, you can quickly enable the radio on a 4th ap with DFS enabled.
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mahnet
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Re: RB411 and RB 433AH with XR2 radios - 200 concurrent user

by mahnet » Thu Mar 15, 2012 8:28 pm

3 xr-2 radios in 1 board 433ah ?? do u think it will work.
3 XR2 needs more wattage than the 433AH can supply to the mini pci.

however i think 433ah with 1 XR2 should be good enough to handle 50 concurrent users.

how about the RB751-2hn? never tried it but would like to know how many concurrent users can it support. i can upgrade to level 5 from level 4 if necessary.

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Re: RB411 and RB 433AH with XR2 radios - 200 concurrent user

by derrick32 » Thu Mar 15, 2012 9:51 pm

mahnet wrote:3 xr-2 radios in 1 board 433ah ?? do u think it will work.
3 XR2 needs more wattage than the 433AH can supply to the mini pci.

however i think 433ah with 1 XR2 should be good enough to handle 50 concurrent users.

how about the RB751-2hn? never tried it but would like to know how many concurrent users can it support. i can upgrade to level 5 from level 4 if necessary.


I have put (1) XR2 on a 433AH for wifi, and (2) RB52n-M's used for AP bridge ----> (3) stations each. Not sure if that was not supposed to work but its been pretty solid for the last 3 months.

andreacoppini wrote:Remember that in 2ghz you only have 3 non overlapping channels available. In your big room, I would install the 5 APs, but only enable the radio on 3 of them (ch 1, 6, 11).

Monitor them during the conference, then if you start seeing excessive data loss errors in the ap logs, you can quickly enable the radio on a 4th ap with DFS enabled.


How many clients do you think those 3 AP's using channels 1,6,11 will handle?? I need to get the total as close to 200 as possible.. What if I divided the network into 2 different SSID's??

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Re: RB411 and RB 433AH with XR2 radios - 200 concurrent user

by mahnet » Thu Mar 15, 2012 9:59 pm

derrick32 wrote:(1) RB433AH with (3) XR2 N radios ----------> 20 users per radio should yield me APPROX 60 connections


this is what got me to think u had 3 XR2's if not it should be working, r52nm requires very less wattage

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Re: RB411 and RB 433AH with XR2 radios - 200 concurrent user

by derrick32 » Thu Mar 15, 2012 10:35 pm

mahnet wrote:
derrick32 wrote:(1) RB433AH with (3) XR2 N radios ----------> 20 users per radio should yield me APPROX 60 connections


this is what got me to think u had 3 XR2's if not it should be working, r52nm requires very less wattage



Sorrry, I wasnt clear. On another setup i have a 433ah stacked with 3 radios (1 XR2 and 2 r52nm's). For the job im inquiring about now i was wonderring about 3 XR2's on one 433ah. But i guess youre telling me the power wont be sufficient for 3 xr2's..?

So rather than a 433ah with 3 xr2's, i should put 3 411's each with one xr2??

Alternatively, could i use the 433ah with (3) R52nm's to achieve my concurrent connection goal???

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Re: RB411 and RB 433AH with XR2 radios - 200 concurrent user

by mahnet » Thu Mar 15, 2012 10:38 pm

yup

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Re: RB411 and RB 433AH with XR2 radios - 200 concurrent user

by derrick32 » Thu Mar 15, 2012 10:41 pm

Any idea how many solid connections id get out of that one board? (433ah with 3 r52nm's)

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Re: RB411 and RB 433AH with XR2 radios - 200 concurrent user

by 0ldman » Thu Mar 15, 2012 11:46 pm

I've got a 433 running 3 2.4GHz cards. It is a bad idea. I'd use individual 411 boards and space them around the room.

Are you going to have any 5GHz AP? I'd double up a 2.4/5GHz in a 433, but I wouldn't put 3 2.4GHz cards in a single AP again.

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Re: RB411 and RB 433AH with XR2 radios - 200 concurrent user

by WirelessRudy » Fri Mar 16, 2012 3:03 am

I don't know. I hope for you your connected users are not really going to demand real data streams. Before you know your network will crash....
Under low traffic demand you might expect to server 30-40 clients per radio and since 802.11b/g only has 3 relatively separated channels (don't try NV2 in such confined high density spectrum use environment) you'r talking 90-110 connected devices.
The moment many of these really start using the network the latency will start to deteriorate and usefull data rates will crumble... Signal interferences is un-avoidable in such confined environment.

Even mainstream technology (cisco etc.) needs heavy equipments and managment to do something like you'd want.
The only branch so far that will have no problems with such setup is Ruckus. They are specialized in these kind of solucions with their next generation Wifi technology.

If in Spain, I can help you out.... :)
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Re: RB411 and RB 433AH with XR2 radios - 200 concurrent user

by derrick32 » Fri Mar 16, 2012 7:12 pm

Thanks Oldman, that seems to be the consensus. 1 radio card per board on 2.4

WirelessRudy wrote:I don't know. I hope for you your connected users are not really going to demand real data streams. Before you know your network will crash....
Under low traffic demand you might expect to server 30-40 clients per radio and since 802.11b/g only has 3 relatively separated channels (don't try NV2 in such confined high density spectrum use environment) you'r talking 90-110 connected devices.
The moment many of these really start using the network the latency will start to deteriorate and usefull data rates will crumble... Signal interferences is un-avoidable in such confined environment.

Even mainstream technology (cisco etc.) needs heavy equipments and managment to do something like you'd want.
The only branch so far that will have no problems with such setup is Ruckus. They are specialized in these kind of solucions with their next generation Wifi technology.

If in Spain, I can help you out.... :)



This is a social media convention for employees, the most i would expect is Facebook and Twitter data flowing in and out. What about using N-radios? Would that help or hinder me at all? Shoot I wish I was in SPAIN, stuck in crappy old Los Angeles!!

Thanks guys, I appreciate everyones input!! :D

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Re: RB411 and RB 433AH with XR2 radios - 200 concurrent user

by mahnet » Fri Mar 16, 2012 8:06 pm

WirelessRudy wrote:Even mainstream technology (cisco etc.) needs heavy equipments and managment to do something like you'd want.
The only branch so far that will have no problems with such setup is Ruckus. They are specialized in these kind of solucions with their next generation Wifi technology.

If in Spain, I can help you out.... :)


What about the Unifi AP?? I heard it is working gr8.

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Re: RB411 and RB 433AH with XR2 radios - 200 concurrent user

by derrick32 » Fri Mar 16, 2012 8:27 pm

Soo what Im thinking is I need to start planniing to run this on 5ghz for the sake of channel separation. Does that sound about right?

Can anyone suggest a good antenna for this scenario? I only have omni's in stock which only take one mmcx connector. Can I just buy 2 sector antennas and place them side by side, or do I need an antenna that accepts 2 mmcx connectors??


Thanks again all!!

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Re: RB411 and RB 433AH with XR2 radios - 200 concurrent user

by dsobin » Fri Mar 16, 2012 10:23 pm

In a small space like you have, I'd go with the omni's. Sector antenna's won't help in this application.

You will only be able to use channels 1,6,11 at 2.4 GHz, as previously mentioned.

I think adding another radio in each box at 5.8 GHz is the right way to go. However, keep in mind that many (most?) clients only support 2.4 GHz. The 5.8 radios will help, but most of your users will have to use 2.4 because that's all they have. If possible, try to encourage the users to select 5.8 GHz (probably called 802.11a on their device) if they have support for that frequency. That will reduce the number of users who have to compete for the available 2.4 GHz spectrum.

You can safely put an XR2 and any other 5.8 GHz radio in a single RB433. I do it all the time.

As previously suggested, the best configuration is 3 RB433 each with 2 radios - 1@2.4 and 1@5.8.

You could add a few more boxes with 5.8 radios, since 5.8 has lots of non-overlapping channels, but I don't think enough of your users will have 5.8 GHz support to make use of more than 3 radios.

There is no reason to use another SSID at 2.4 GHz. It won't help at all. However, if you create different SSID's for the 2.4 and 5.8 networks, you can tell the users to connect to the 5.8 network if they see it, and the 2.4 network otherwise. This may be easier than trying to get them to select a specific frequency on their wifi card. Of course, this will only work for wifi devices that scan on both frequencies. I've seen some devices do that.

Another technique, but a last resort, is to add more boxes and reuse 2.4 GHz frequencies as far apart as you can. In that case, reduce the transmit power to a very low value. People sitting close by will have a fine signal, and hopefully, the signal will be too low to interfere with the reused frequency at the opposite end of the room. Note that this is a "last resort" effort. It might not help.

I would also suggest restricting the bandwidth per user to 1 mbit/second. You don't want some bored user to download a movie to their laptop during the session and use up all of your bandwidth.

Also, be sure to tell us afterwards how it worked out and what your configuration finally looked like.

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Re: RB411 and RB 433AH with XR2 radios - 200 concurrent user

by WirelessRudy » Sat Mar 17, 2012 1:36 am

Yet again, Silicon Valley already produced the answer; "bandsteering" where the dualband (dual radio) actually denies a dualband client's probes in the 2,4Ghz radio and allows the 5Ghz association. User won't even notice and you get every 5Ghz capable device on 5Ghz. How many such device you'll have amongst your audiance is the question... not much I'll guess.

So, these "Big Dogs" from San Jose having it all thought through very well.
There are other solutions but if you really start compare these for simplicity and performance there is only one answer imho.
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Re: RB411 and RB 433AH with XR2 radios - 200 concurrent user

by derrick32 » Mon Mar 26, 2012 7:18 am

All worked out well with the suggestions.. Thanks Gents. I did 3 radios on 2.4 and 5 radios on 5Ghz. No complaints!

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