IPv6 over PPPoE
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IPv6 over PPPoE

by nickshore » Wed Feb 25, 2009 3:05 pm

We have been happily using IPv6 over PPPoE but note that this was removed/disabled in ROS 3.18

Is there a timescale for when this will be reinstated ?

Thanks

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Re: IPv6 over PPPoE

by NAB » Wed Feb 25, 2009 3:09 pm

I'll second that question - I raised a bug report yesterday when a perfectly working IPv6/PPPoE configuration failed to operate at all after an upgrade to 3.20.

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Re: IPv6 over PPPoE

by mrz » Wed Feb 25, 2009 4:39 pm

If you want to transport IPv6 traffic over a tunnel, then the only option is 6to4 tunnels

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Re: IPv6 over PPPoE

by NAB » Wed Feb 25, 2009 4:50 pm

mrz wrote:If you want to transport IPv6 traffic over a tunnel, then the only option is 6to4 tunnels
That's not a particularly helpful answer - especially since it used to work and appears to have been deliberately broken. It's also not helpful if one's Internet connection is delivered over a PPPoE connection. Perhaps it would be helpful if you explained why this feature is no longer available and why it cannot be enabled with a 'I want this feature' switch.

In the mean time, as far as I am concerned, the only option is not to use 6to4 tunnels, but to revert to ROS 3.17.

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Re: IPv6 over PPPoE

by nickshore » Wed Feb 25, 2009 4:52 pm

mrz wrote:If you want to transport IPv6 traffic over a tunnel, then the only option is 6to4 tunnels


I understand the only current option from 3.18 onwards is 6to4 tunnels

I want to know when we will be able to use native IPv6 over PPPoE, as this is what our ISP provides and is a clean solution.

It was working up to 3.17 and then someone took it away.

Surely it must be possible for the PPPoE tunnel to know the IP6CP has been negotiated and then to allow IPv6 to pass over the PPPoE rether than just not allowing it at all. (after all it used to work)

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Re: IPv6 over PPPoE

by mrz » Wed Feb 25, 2009 5:07 pm

If it was working for you, it doesn' t mean that it was working correctly in all cases.
IPv6 can't be transported over ppp, it requires new implementation which will not be added in near future.

Sure you can revert to v3.17, but when eventually some problems will occur then do not complain, you have been warned. :D

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Re: IPv6 over PPPoE

by NAB » Wed Feb 25, 2009 5:51 pm

mrz wrote:IPv6 can't be transported over ppp
Are you stating that your implementation of PPP is broken/buggy and that you are not prepared to investigate/fix? If so, this has very serious implications for our use of ROS/RBs in future.

I appreciate that electronic communications are sometimes unintentionally confrontational, so perhaps this is something we could discuss face to face in Prague over the next couple of days?

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Re: IPv6 over PPPoE

by gr0mit » Wed Feb 25, 2009 6:26 pm

hello there
I think this thread finally explains the problems I also have been having here in the UK with my IP V6 configuration over PPPoE since upgrading to version 3.20. Everything was working just fine with 3.17, and I have spent a morning trying to work out why my IP six connectivity failed!

Having now read the release notes in more detail, it seems that this feature has actually been removed! I have had to resort to a 6-4 tunnel in order to restore my IPv6 connectivity. this is not an ideal situation, especially since our Internet provider is one of the few to support native IP V6.

it would be really helpful if you could provide some details on why these changes have had to be made, and your approximate date for resolution.

Best regards

Tim Robinson
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Re: IPv6 over PPPoE

by NAB » Mon Mar 02, 2009 1:08 pm

To update:
I wrote:perhaps this is something we could discuss face to face in Prague over the next couple of days?
Well, I did try, but sadly this didn't happen.

I have received the following response from Mikrotik:
Janis Krumins (e-mail) wrote:that is by design that IPV6 is not working over PPPoE tunnel. That was securyty bug, that in some previous versions IPV6 worked over that tunnel type, also there where problems with other pppoe clients that where not aware of IPV6.
Which seems to say to me "Our product has a bug in it we're not prepared to fix", and "we've disabled the feature because some other people's products have bugs in them."

In the first case, please can you categorically state that your PPP code is buggy and that you are not prepared to fix it?

In the second case, none of my clients have this problem, my ISP doesn't have this problem, so why can't I use this feature? At least disable it by default and give me an option to enable it if I want to.

Given the number of people at MUM who were talking about PPPoE connections, it seems to me that Mikrotik will disenfranchise an awful lot of people who would like to move to IPv6.

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Re: IPv6 over PPPoE

by normis » Mon Mar 02, 2009 4:15 pm

no, it's like this

3. it was a bug that it was working, because it's not supposed to work over IPv6. We fixed the bug, so it doesn't work anymore, as it should be
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Re: IPv6 over PPPoE

by Chupaka » Tue Mar 03, 2009 1:10 pm

so, what's replacement of PPPoE for IPv6? =)
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Re: IPv6 over PPPoE

by hci » Tue Mar 03, 2009 5:52 pm

normis wrote:no, it's like this

3. it was a bug that it was working, because it's not supposed to work over IPv6. We fixed the bug, so it doesn't work anymore, as it should be


That explains it. We are not using IPv6 'yet' but do use PPPoE. Is there any time frame for PPPoE server to work with IPv6? Year from now? IPv6 is the future. Hopefully a good long ways off but there is no way around it.

Matt

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Re: IPv6 over PPPoE

by nickshore » Tue Mar 03, 2009 6:52 pm

normis wrote:no, it's like this

3. it was a bug that it was working, because it's not supposed to work over IPv6. We fixed the bug, so it doesn't work anymore, as it should be



WOW its not often that something working is described as a bug !

Lets just get this clear

in version 3.17 I can configure up PPPoE client, with my DSL router in bridge mode.
I can then login to my ISP and it automatically negotiates both IPv4 and IPv6 - yes it all works - even IPV6CP
I can then route IPv6 over the connection.

From 3.18 you removed this facility, so why was it removed ? and when can we have it back ?

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Re: IPv6 over PPPoE

by changeip » Tue Mar 03, 2009 7:46 pm

I specifically ran into the bug they were talking about. There may have been many others I'm sure. In my specific case L2TP encryption no longer worked, even without using IPv6 across it. Simply adding the IPv6 package broke L2TP encryption.

Prior to where we are at today there was no RFC or standard for IPv6 over PPP lines. I show RFC2742 has been updated, http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-i ... -ppp-v2-03 or http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5072. This talks about IPv6 over PPP. Microsoft has also just implemented this in their newer OS, per their statement below:

"For native IPv6 traffic, the VPN client, server, or router sends IPv6
packets across the VPN connection without the initial IPv4 encapsulation.
This works for intranets that have native IPv6 connectivity and requires
that the VPN clients, servers, and routers support the IPv6 Control Protocol
(IPV6CP), RFC 2472, which defines how IPv6 nodes negotiate IPv6
configuration options for Point-to-Point Protocol (PPP)-based connections.
Windows Vista and Windows Server 2008 support IPV6CP while Windows XP and
Windows Server 2003 do not. Figure 4 shows the general packet structure for
VPN traffic when sending a native IPv6 packet using a VPN connection across
the IPv4 Internet." ...
http://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/maga ... leguy.aspx

I am sure that if there is an RFC that it will get implemented soon... I really need it.

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Re: IPv6 over PPPoE

by nickshore » Wed Mar 04, 2009 4:23 pm

IPv6 over PPP is defined in RFC2023 originally.

And that's dated October 1996.
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Re: IPv6 over PPPoE

by NAB » Fri Mar 06, 2009 4:53 pm

Bump
Last edited by NAB on Tue Mar 10, 2009 4:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: IPv6 over PPPoE

by bazzer » Sun Mar 08, 2009 1:01 am

Looks like I'll have to continue exploiting the bug in v3.17 for IPv6 over pppoe too until either the option/(bug) is re-introduced in newer versions or I find alternative equipment.

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Re: IPv6 over PPPoE

by NAB » Mon Apr 20, 2009 2:11 pm

Bump
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Re: IPv6 over PPPoE

by taylorc » Tue Jun 02, 2009 4:18 am

Bump

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Re: IPv6 over PPPoE

by NAB » Tue Jun 16, 2009 5:03 pm

Bump
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Re: IPv6 over PPPoE

by cieplik206 » Tue Jun 23, 2009 12:53 am

bump ?

I need that feature in about 2 months, i am preparing a project that will need that feature, if that will not work, i will buy other equipment than Mikrotik
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Re: IPv6 over PPPoE

by NAB » Wed Jun 24, 2009 11:34 am

cieplik206 wrote:I need that feature in about 2 months, i am preparing a project that will need that feature, if that will not work, i will buy other equipment than Mikrotik
I rather suspect that you'll have to go elsewhere. The Mikrotik guys are being very evasive about the problem. Until I get an answer like "Yes, our code has a bug in it we're not prepared to fix", or "It'll be working in the next release" or something definitive, I'll keep bouncing this thread - we have more and more customers starting to use IPv6 and being able to deliver IPv6 traffic directly from the ISP is becoming more and more important.
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Re: IPv6 over PPPoE

by cieplik206 » Wed Jun 24, 2009 11:55 am

NAB wrote:
cieplik206 wrote:I need that feature in about 2 months, i am preparing a project that will need that feature, if that will not work, i will buy other equipment than Mikrotik
I rather suspect that you'll have to go elsewhere. The Mikrotik guys are being very evasive about the problem. Until I get an answer like "Yes, our code has a bug in it we're not prepared to fix", or "It'll be working in the next release" or something definitive, I'll keep bouncing this thread - we have more and more customers starting to use IPv6 and being able to deliver IPv6 traffic directly from the ISP is becoming more and more important.



More strange it is, that pppd works with IPv6, and i can bet they uses that deamon.
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Re: IPv6 over PPPoE

by changeip » Wed Jun 24, 2009 7:46 pm

i very much need this as well. both pppoe and standard l2tp tunnels. i know a sit tunnel takes care of it, but thats two tunnels per path now and twice the configuration.
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Re: IPv6 over PPPoE

by marlow » Sun Jun 28, 2009 12:04 am

I second that. We're running a native IPv6 network and end-user deployment is rather difficult with current consumer products. IPv6 (IP6CP) over PPPoE would be the most straight forward approach and is supported by some router manufacturers.

Please give us at least a timeline.

The IPv4 freepool is supposed to be empty in 2011. You'd hope that this is in Mikrotik before that.

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Re: IPv6 over PPPoE

by nickshore » Fri Jul 10, 2009 5:54 pm

Still no answers from mikrotik on this ?

This worked in earlier versions, why can't you just add a switch to make it be disabled by default, and then those of us who want to use IPv6 over PPPOE could then enable it.

Leaving everyone else not affected.

Be really good to get a response from mikrotik on this, instead of the deafening silence.

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Re: IPv6 over PPPoE

by changeip » Fri Jul 10, 2009 7:19 pm

it wasnt that they turned it off because they felt like it, it was causing problems with existing configurations. PPP encryption would stop working (so everythign was sent in the clear rather than stopping a tunnel), and a few other bugs if I could remember them.

The problem is that they need to fix the legacy PPP code before they can allow it back I assume. Heopfully this happens sometime soon.
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Re: IPv6 over PPPoE

by nickshore » Wed Jul 15, 2009 12:15 pm

Well 3.26 is out and still no answer on this.

How long do we have to wait to get IPv6 over PPPoE back ?

Please will someone from mikrotik answer this.

This is not idle curiousity, we have customers who are using this functionality on 3.17 and need it, but they would also like to be able to upgrade.

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Re: IPv6 over PPPoE

by bazzer » Fri Jul 24, 2009 2:48 pm

The longer the silence, the more I think its either a can't or won't fix.

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Re: IPv6 over PPPoE

by thadem » Fri Jul 24, 2009 4:32 pm

it's a "won't fix" :-)
they are actively ignoring this thread, i think.
perhaps it is too much work and they mind it, as they think it would be just for a few freaks and not a broad spectrum of customers. but mistakes like that scare customers away, as it is a industry-standard to be able to use v6 if you want to play in the same league as the big guys and not stay SOHO like linksys, d-link and others. use cisco, juniper or if you mind spending that much money, use a openwrt-box. v6 over pppoe won't be released in the next future i think. but who knows.

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Re: IPv6 over PPPoE

by NAB » Tue Aug 04, 2009 10:06 pm

Bump.
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Re: IPv6 over PPPoE

by janisk » Wed Aug 05, 2009 1:15 pm

as was answered in other thread somewhere - the problem is that some widespread ppp clients (like windows one, if not mistaken) does not support ipv6 over ppp and therefore (and some other security/management related reasons) ipv6 is disabled on ppp links.

thread was ignored due to answer was already in the forum.

at least, if it will be made available, it wont be in form that it was.

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Re: IPv6 over PPPoE

by nickshore » Wed Aug 05, 2009 1:43 pm

janisk wrote:as was answered in other thread somewhere - the problem is that some widespread ppp clients (like windows one, if not mistaken) does not support ipv6 over ppp and therefore (and some other security/management related reasons) ipv6 is disabled on ppp links.

thread was ignored due to answer was already in the forum.

at least, if it will be made available, it wont be in form that it was.


Please confirm you understand what we are using.

We want to use IPv6 over pppoe with the mikrotik acting as a pppoe client.
If there is a problem with the mikrotik serving ip6 over ppp then sure disable it !

But please can we have the possibility to switch it back on when the mikrotik is the client.

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Re: IPv6 over PPPoE

by janisk » Wed Aug 05, 2009 2:36 pm

yes, that is correct.

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Re: IPv6 over PPPoE

by rickhodger » Tue Aug 18, 2009 6:48 pm

To give my view, I work for a UK based ISP and we are in the process of upgrading our ADSL systems.

The system is delivered to us by our wholesale provider as L2TP tunnels (one for each user). Obviously a device such as the RB1000 is ideal for this due to it's price and available features.

Our problem is that we want to be able to offer IPv6 to our customers. If RouterOS cannot handle IPv6 over L2TP then we will have to use a different vendor as Cisco, Juniper and many others all support IPv6 over L2TP without issue. RouterOS appears to be the only device that cannot.

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Re: IPv6 over PPPoE

by liteforce » Wed Aug 19, 2009 1:48 am

Hi,

This is only my second post since joining the forum; recently deployed three RB1000U on a dual-stack IPv4/IPv6 production network to replace three Quagga boxes.

While we don't have a vested interest in IPv6 o/ PPPoE functionality, we are 'pro IPv6' and it greatly concerns us that Mikrotik are prepared to remove support for it because of *bugs* in other manufacturers' implementations.

For instance, if the Microsoft PPP implementation barfs when it receives an IPV6CP from the other end, that is a violation of the relevant RFC on Microsoft's part because any PPP negotiation that is supported by one end and not the other should result in a negative response from the client and not the behaviour which is described.

Also, the 'security' concern is not a Mikrotik bug either - if someone is using MPPE over the session, it makes sense for both ends to specify encryption is required rather than optional; if the Microsoft implementation does not honour this setting and allows the connection to establish with encryption disabled, that is a bug which Microsoft needs to address.

The whole point of RFCs is that each and every vendor adheres to them as strongly as possible; if any particular vendor breaks their implementation in such a way that it violates an RFC, other vendors should not be implementing workarounds to fix bugs in another vendors' products.

One thing does spring to mind though: Is it possible to run a PPP package from 3.17 with the remainder of the system being updated to 3.28 ?

If it does, it might be a temporary workaround until Mikrotik do the decent thing and fix their implementation or at least allow their customers to choose whether they want broken MPPE *or* working IPv6.

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Re: IPv6 over PPPoE

by changeip » Wed Aug 19, 2009 6:07 am

Also, the 'security' concern is not a Mikrotik bug either - if someone is using MPPE over the session, it makes sense for both ends to specify encryption is required rather than optional; if the Microsoft implementation does not honour this setting and allows the connection to establish with encryption disabled, that is a bug which Microsoft needs to address.


This was a RouterOS to RouterOS tunnel that was broken... at least in my case. I didnt test using other vendors.
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Re: IPv6 over PPPoE

by rickhodger » Wed Aug 19, 2009 11:45 am

liteforce wrote:If it does, it might be a temporary workaround until Mikrotik do the decent thing and fix their implementation or at least allow their customers to choose whether they want broken MPPE *or* working IPv6.


Cutting back IPv6 support from a product because of a bug and not making any effort to fix that bug when everyone is finally trying to make the push towards IPv6 seems like vendor suicide to me. If RouterOS can only run IPv6 over ethernet and wireless, and will never be able to run it over PPPoE, L2TP or any other PPP-using session then it is going to be of seriously limited to use to most ISPs.

IPv6 over L2TP makes it usable to every ISP in the UK using BT's 21CN delivery mechanism. IPv6 over PPPoE on a router that costs less than 100 GBP makes it useful to every ISP in the world wanting to offer cheap IPv6 access to DSL customers.

By not fixing whatever bug it is exactly, or offering a workaround Mikrotik are cutting themselves off from a huge segment of the market.

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Re: IPv6 over PPPoE

by bootc » Thu Aug 20, 2009 1:05 am

The most infuriating thing about this whole issue is that it used to work. I used it and it was great.

Then, all of a sudden, it disappeared for no apparent reason. After much fuss we eventually found out why it was removed, and no amount of begging can make MikroTik see that people want this feature.

OK, so it breaks crappy MS RAS - can it be an option please?

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Re: IPv6 over PPPoE

by changeip » Thu Aug 20, 2009 2:13 am

OK, so it breaks crappy MS RAS - can it be an option please?


Again, just for clarity, it broke Mikrotik to Mikrotik VPNs with > 1280 MTU... I have no idea about MS RAS, I never tried it.

I could really use this feature TODAY if it was working properly. I have tons of IPv6 opportunity going forward. You'd figure that an L2TP tunnel is Layer 2, so it shouldnt matter if you send IPv6 over it or not, thats layer 3. Same with pppoe.
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Re: IPv6 over PPPoE

by liteforce » Thu Aug 20, 2009 11:32 am

So the 'bug' broke a RouterOS to RouterOS PPPoE session ?

Does Mikrotik do any kind of interoperability testing with their own products or other vendors' implementations ?

... and who at Mikrotik makes the decision as to what functionality should be sacrificed in the event of an 'either or' scenario like the one detailed by the OP ?

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Re: IPv6 over PPPoE

by normis » Thu Aug 20, 2009 11:35 am

liteforce wrote:So the 'bug' broke a RouterOS to RouterOS PPPoE session ?

Does Mikrotik do any kind of interoperability testing with their own products or other vendors' implementations ?

... and who at Mikrotik makes the decision as to what functionality should be sacrificed in the event of an 'either or' scenario like the one detailed by the OP ?

Regards,
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I recommend reading the thread from the beginning, you will then understand what was the bug, and why was the bug removed.
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Re: IPv6 over PPPoE

by rickhodger » Thu Aug 20, 2009 12:08 pm

normis wrote:I recommend reading the thread from the beginning, you will then understand what was the bug, and why was the bug removed.


I can happily understand that there was a bug causing problems for people and that bug was corrected, and that as a side effect IPv6 no longer works over PPP which it was not intended.

However it's the complete lack of answer to the question that is frustrating us: When are we going to be able to use IPv6 over PPP? Does Mikrotik have any plan to add this in, or is RouterOS dead in the water as far as IPv6 over PPP goes?

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Re: IPv6 over PPPoE

by normis » Thu Aug 20, 2009 12:10 pm

Not quite. IPv6 working over PPPoE for some people was not intentional, and we had to remove it because it caused other issues.

We are working on a more complete IPv6 support, and this will be implemented in the way it's supposed to be.
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Re: IPv6 over PPPoE

by rickhodger » Thu Aug 20, 2009 12:16 pm

normis wrote:We are working on a more complete IPv6 support, and this will be implemented in the way it's supposed to be.


That's great to know, but is there any sort of time frame you can give us? As mentioned, my personal situation is that I could use 2 or 3 RB1000's as L2TP devices if they support IPv6 within the next 2-3 months. Otherwise I'm going to have to go and spend $30,000 on a pair of Cisco 7200 routers.

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Re: IPv6 over PPPoE

by liteforce » Fri Aug 21, 2009 8:10 pm

That's great to know, but is there any sort of time frame you can give us? As mentioned, my personal situation is that I could use 2 or 3 RB1000's as L2TP devices if they support IPv6 within the next 2-3 months. Otherwise I'm going to have to go and spend $30,000 on a pair of Cisco 7200 routers.


Rick,

Going slightly OT, we currently terminate our IPv4/IPv6 DSL end users using a custom build of l2tpns (http://l2tpns.sourceforge.net/) - only caveat is that l2tpns' in-built throttling capability doesn't work properly with IPv6 traffic.

I am currently experimenting with the use of FreeBSD and its' mpd5 daemon which does very much the same thing but is more actively supported and allows lots of other funky features such as individual 'walled gardens' for different groups of subscribers and proper supported multilink (in both MLPPP and the ability to route the same netblock to multiple static IPs - ideal for users who terminate multiple PPP sessions and use something like a Draytek to 'load-balance' between them).

The other alternative is a Watchfront FB6000 (http://www.firebrick.co.uk/) but I was quoted £6,000 just for a beta unit with full price anticipated to be around £15,000 for one unit - they may be stellar bits of kit but they aren't worth *that* much!

Hope this helps!

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Re: IPv6 over PPPoE

by rickhodger » Mon Aug 24, 2009 11:58 am

liteforce wrote:Going slightly OT, we currently terminate our IPv4/IPv6 DSL end users using a custom build of l2tpns (http://l2tpns.sourceforge.net/) - only caveat is that l2tpns' in-built throttling capability doesn't work properly with IPv6 traffic.


We considered it, but we do not have programmers on staff so the lack of any sort of vendor support is a real killer for us. We even built a preconfigured bootable CD for testing, but if we were to encounter a bug or problem we'd be dead in the water.

liteforce wrote:I am currently experimenting with the use of FreeBSD and its' mpd5 daemon which does very much the same thing but is more actively supported and allows lots of other funky features such as individual 'walled gardens' for different groups of subscribers and proper supported multilink (in both MLPPP and the ability to route the same netblock to multiple static IPs - ideal for users who terminate multiple PPP sessions and use something like a Draytek to 'load-balance' between them).


I haven't heard of mpd5... probably because we're not a BSD house, but we'll perhaps look into it.

liteforce wrote:The other alternative is a Watchfront FB6000 (http://www.firebrick.co.uk/) but I was quoted £6,000 just for a beta unit with full price anticipated to be around £15,000 for one unit - they may be stellar bits of kit but they aren't worth *that* much!


Exactly my issue... we can buy a Cisco 7201 for £10,000 which will pretty much do all the same things (bar their fancy graphs and such) and have proper vendor backing, as opposed to being built in someone's garden shed ;). If Mikrotik's RouterOS supported IPv6 properly, then suddenly it could be done on a box that costs £450.

As an aside, the "Firebrick" devices appear to be using lt2pns, albeit a more developed version. Andrews & Arnold /Watchfront donated code to l2tpns a number of years ago. If you try to start it up without a proper config file, it spits out a copyright line:

Code: Select all
2009-08-24 09:50:46 00/00 Copyright (c) 2002 FireBrick (Andrews & Arnold Ltd / Watchfront Ltd) - GPL licenced

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Re: IPv6 over PPPoE

by bootc » Wed Aug 26, 2009 1:29 am

I'm going to suggest that everyone who wants this feature please add your vote to this page:
http://wiki.mikrotik.com/wiki/MikroTik_ ... e_Requests

And in response to the note about L2TPNS on FireBricks - I believe the FB6000 OS and software stack was written completely from scratch, so this may have been the case some time ago but I believe this isn't the case anymore. I use Andrews & Arnolds ISP here in the UK and they have all their ADSL subscribers going through these - they are not basic pieces of equipment!

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Re: IPv6 over PPPoE

by NAB » Tue Sep 08, 2009 4:05 pm

Bump.
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Re: IPv6 over PPPoE

by bazzer » Tue Sep 22, 2009 10:49 am

normis wrote:We are working on a more complete IPv6 support, and this will be implemented in the way it's supposed to be.


Any timescale on this? This month, year or decade?

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