Community discussions

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by pjulian
Mon Feb 25, 2008 1:58 pm
Forum: General
Topic: SSL and Hotspot MT2.9.38
Replies: 5
Views: 778

SSL and Hotspot MT2.9.38

Hi folks, we have some Routerboard532's operating as hotspots and want to implement SSL. I have used MT to generate a certificate request, purchased a SSL certificate based on that request, then uploaded it to the Routerboard and imported it. When I do the decrypt it asks me for the passphrase and t...
by pjulian
Thu Feb 21, 2008 1:19 am
Forum: Scripting
Topic: Redirect hotspot user to different page
Replies: 14
Views: 5671

Re: Redirect hotspot user to different page

OK, firstly we modified the login.html page to redirect to our login page script: *****login.html**** <html> <title>...</title> body> <form name="redirect" action="https://yoururl/scriptname.cgi" method="post"> <input type="hidden" name="mac" value="$(mac)"> <input type="hidden" name="ip" value="$(i...
by pjulian
Sun Feb 10, 2008 1:03 am
Forum: General
Topic: Email backup script
Replies: 13
Views: 1927

Re: Email backup script

In your code above you have the line set server= from="souris-mikrotik@home.com" This is not going to work, you have to either define the server and sender address each time you send the email, or define it something like this /tool e-mail set server=1.2.3.4 from=fred@isp.com Doing it this way will ...
by pjulian
Sat Feb 09, 2008 4:49 am
Forum: General
Topic: Hotspot and CGI Scripts - Proxy Errors
Replies: 0
Views: 1195

Hotspot and CGI Scripts - Proxy Errors

Hi, we are trying to setup a redirect from a hotspot running 2.9.30 to a cgi script on a backend server. We have setup a really basic login.html which has simple form which when the user accepts the details on the form and clicks the OK button it runs a form action of the URL for our cgi script. On ...
by pjulian
Sat Feb 09, 2008 4:44 am
Forum: General
Topic: Email backup script
Replies: 13
Views: 1927

Re: Email backup script

This is what we use, nice and simple, we just schedule it to run at midnight each day. Obviously you need to set the smtp server name and sender address before any emailing can work. /system backup save name=daily_backup /tool e-mail send to=fred@mystuff.org subject "Config Backup" file daily_backup...
by pjulian
Sun Jul 29, 2007 10:08 am
Forum: Scripting
Topic: SNMP OID for Qty of Wireless Clients Connected
Replies: 25
Views: 27220

SNMP OID for Qty of Wireless Clients Connected

Hey guys, does anybody know how I can get the amount of wireless clients connected using SNMP ? I have trolled through the SNMP walk and can't find anything that relates to this value. I want to be able to graph the amount of clients connected to an AP every 5 minutes using MRTG. Any suggestions wou...
by pjulian
Sun Jun 24, 2007 11:45 am
Forum: Scripting
Topic: Hotspot Hit Counter
Replies: 1
Views: 1095

Hotspot Hit Counter

Has anybody out there implemented a hit counter on their hotspot running Mikrotik ? We have ads on our login pages and would like to be able to give our advertisers statistics on the hits they are getting. I don't want to use some third party service if possible, I know there are plenty of free ones...
by pjulian
Mon May 21, 2007 10:48 am
Forum: The User Manager
Topic: Usermanager web front end
Replies: 14
Views: 4924

Sergejs, you say it's currently not possible, but you also say that it will be possible in future releases. Are you able to elaborate on when the future might be ? Some of us a rolling these things out at a reasonable rate and may want to hold off if it's not too far around the corner rather than ha...
by pjulian
Mon May 21, 2007 4:45 am
Forum: The User Manager
Topic: Usermanager web front end
Replies: 14
Views: 4924

ANy news on this by any chance ?

Regards
Paul
by pjulian
Sat May 05, 2007 1:51 am
Forum: General
Topic: Port Forwarding not working
Replies: 23
Views: 3396

Rule 6, you need to change to dst-port, then try to connect again, making sure of course that you disable the relevant forward rule for port 22. What I was trying to get you to do is connect to the port 22 (SSH) on the mikrotik itself just to ensure that you can get port 22 into the router. Also, I'...
by pjulian
Fri May 04, 2007 12:28 pm
Forum: Scripting
Topic: Allow users to connect directly to each other
Replies: 3
Views: 1349

You may want to consider a bridged network then. All of your customers would then appear to be on the same network. This does however introduce other potential problems such as security and broadcast traffic, you could also consider VLANS for the customers that needed to talk to each other. It's har...
by pjulian
Fri May 04, 2007 8:37 am
Forum: General
Topic: Port Forwarding not working
Replies: 23
Views: 3396

So you can definately connect to these ports OK from inside the network, and you can definately ping your public addresses from outside ? Maybe temporarily allow port 22 in the input chain and test to make sure you can SSH to the router itself, work through it piece by piece. You rules look OK to me...
by pjulian
Fri May 04, 2007 8:29 am
Forum: The Dude
Topic: Change Mikrotik device port number
Replies: 0
Views: 1299

Change Mikrotik device port number

Hi guys, anybody know how, of if it's possible to change the default port number that the Winbox tool uses in the Dude ? I, like probably a lot of other people run the Winbox stuff on non standard ports for more security, and would like to be able to connect to the devices using the non standard por...
by pjulian
Fri May 04, 2007 12:46 am
Forum: The User Manager
Topic: "download" & "upload" limits
Replies: 10
Views: 5287

Sergejs, you may not be able to add it in the Mikrotik User Manager batch creation process, but you can generate a file which you can then use as a script to create your users, and by using the group-name attribute you can control the user profile that the user uses. Too many use's in that sentence ...
by pjulian
Thu May 03, 2007 4:32 pm
Forum: The Dude
Topic: Execute function help
Replies: 2
Views: 1589

Abertram, I can't help you with the code sorry, but can tell you that the probes run from the servers perspective and things like the tools are run from the client.

Regards
Paul
by pjulian
Thu May 03, 2007 4:29 pm
Forum: The Dude
Topic: Dude Ping Timeouts. Debugging
Replies: 2
Views: 1769

I have had this problem since 2.0, and still have it. I find it more when a device goes down, sometimes the dude doesn't know when it's come back up, even though you can use the Dudes on ping test and it works, plus a command line ping from a PC works, but dude doesn't start seeing the device respon...
by pjulian
Thu May 03, 2007 4:25 pm
Forum: Scripting
Topic: Allow users to connect directly to each other
Replies: 3
Views: 1349

To let users talk to each other on wireless AP you must enable forwarding between them in the wireless interface setup. If you wan't your users to be able to talk IP further than that you will need to configure the appropriate IP addressing and routing to perform such a function. From what you say y...
by pjulian
Thu May 03, 2007 4:20 pm
Forum: The User Manager
Topic: "download" & "upload" limits
Replies: 10
Views: 5287

I wrote a database to handle all this, it constructs a text file which I FTP to the MT box running user manager. It then has a script that runs every 15 minutes to import the new users. By setting the group name in the user attributes, this determines which user profile is used. If the profile doesn...
by pjulian
Wed May 02, 2007 5:42 pm
Forum: The User Manager
Topic: User Manager Feature request - sticky please?
Replies: 193
Views: 53757

My apologies, it does seem to come across, it just doesn't seem to be reliable. Sometimes when using a script to do the save and load it doesn't save, or it doesn't load fully.

Any suggestions guys ?

Regards
Paul
by pjulian
Wed May 02, 2007 5:29 pm
Forum: The User Manager
Topic: User Manager Feature request - sticky please?
Replies: 193
Views: 53757

Any progress on the redundancy for user manager ? We to require this functionality urgently, we thought that when the database save and load was released that it would allow you to save from one machine and load to another machine, however the users statistics such as uptime and usage don't come acr...
by pjulian
Sun Apr 29, 2007 9:51 am
Forum: General
Topic: Weird RouterOS problem
Replies: 2
Views: 636

Fair point, but I wouldn't consider that I was changing the config really by just adding a comment. The router had been running for a couple of weeks before I added the simple comment. I should try to SSH to and and do the same thing next time I am on site just in case it is a winbox thing. Thanks P...
by pjulian
Sun Apr 29, 2007 3:20 am
Forum: General
Topic: Weird RouterOS problem
Replies: 2
Views: 636

Weird RouterOS problem

Hi Folks, just thought I would ask about this to see if anybody had seen a similar problem to one I experienced last night. I am running RouterOS 2.9.40 in Intel hardware, been running for 3 weeks now without issue. Router has 3 main interfaces, public, private, and one other. We have about 5 public...
by pjulian
Sun Apr 08, 2007 3:02 am
Forum: The User Manager
Topic: Separating hotspot users
Replies: 9
Views: 2867

Thanks for the suggestion. After spending another 6 hours trying everything I could think of I found a good solution. What I have done is created all users under 1 subscriber, but for each user I have defined a group name within them. This group name matches hotspot user profiles on the router. So, ...
by pjulian
Sat Apr 07, 2007 2:41 pm
Forum: The User Manager
Topic: Separating hotspot users
Replies: 9
Views: 2867

Any other suggestions on how I might be able to get around this ?

Regards
Paul
by pjulian
Wed Mar 14, 2007 12:43 am
Forum: The Dude
Topic: Email Notification bug ?
Replies: 0
Views: 1269

Email Notification bug ?

We are running dude 2.2 and have multiple devices selected to notify us when down and back up using two email notifications. The first sends us an email, the second sends us a SMS message via an email address with our mobile phone provider. Dude doesn't seem to be able to do both when it notifies, w...
by pjulian
Thu Feb 22, 2007 11:15 pm
Forum: The User Manager
Topic: Customer permissions????
Replies: 3
Views: 1596

The main problem is from what I can see, is that the customers belong to the subscriber. I have a similar problem which I have raised in another thread about customer separation, and MT suggested I use a different subscriber for each customer, which in your case I think would help. However i my case...
by pjulian
Thu Feb 22, 2007 10:02 am
Forum: The User Manager
Topic: Voucher Template Customization Code
Replies: 10
Views: 6405

This is great, but when can we get this variable for us in the status page or other hotspot webpages ?

Regards
Paul
by pjulian
Thu Feb 22, 2007 9:47 am
Forum: The User Manager
Topic: Customer permissions????
Replies: 3
Views: 1596

Yeh, I find that a bit strange as well. The way I read it is that the subscriber is at the top of the tree, then customers under that, then users under each customer, although when you create customers and then login to usermanager as them, you can see all users of other customers of the same subscr...
by pjulian
Thu Feb 22, 2007 8:11 am
Forum: The User Manager
Topic: Separating hotspot users
Replies: 9
Views: 2867

Sergejs, I set everything up ready to go, added multiple subscribers, added users in each one, and all seemed to be OK. This is how I set it up. One subscriber called "PUBLIC", 2 other subscribers called "CUST1" and "CUST2". PUBLIC is for all public paying customers, CUST1 and CUST2 are for conferen...
by pjulian
Tue Feb 20, 2007 11:20 pm
Forum: The User Manager
Topic: Separating hotspot users
Replies: 9
Views: 2867

Thanks for the idea Sergejs, I'll give that a try.
I did try to create a second subscriber the other day, but once I created it I couldn't log in through the user manager web interface.
I'll try again and test what you suggest, I think that might just work !

Regards
Paul
by pjulian
Tue Feb 20, 2007 12:01 am
Forum: The User Manager
Topic: Separating hotspot users
Replies: 9
Views: 2867

Oh, that's a shame. Why I want to do it is that some of the hotspots have conference centres, and the customers want to use the hotspot for the conference centre access as well as the public hotspot use, but they don't want somebody to use their public hotspot if they got given time for free at anot...
by pjulian
Mon Feb 19, 2007 2:51 pm
Forum: The User Manager
Topic: Separating hotspot users
Replies: 9
Views: 2867

Separating hotspot users

Hi, I have been trying to find out if user manager supports this feature, but can't really figure it out. I'm hoping somebody can shine some light on it for me. If I have 5 hotspots all authenticating back to one central MT box running user manager, what is the best way to separate those users so th...
by pjulian
Tue Feb 13, 2007 12:30 am
Forum: Scripting
Topic: Redirect hotspot user to different page
Replies: 14
Views: 5671

Thanks, just figured it out this morning.
What I did was in the redirect from the login.html page to the status page, I sent the link-orig parameter with the redirect to my status page, then I grabbed that paramater again to use in the hyperlink.

Thanks for your help

Regards
Paul
by pjulian
Mon Feb 12, 2007 4:36 pm
Forum: Scripting
Topic: Redirect hotspot user to different page
Replies: 14
Views: 5671

Redirect hotspot user to different page

Hi, I want to redirect my hotspot users to the status page instead of the page they originally tried to go to after login, and then have a link on the status page for them to continue on to where they orginally wanted to go. I can get the redirect to the status page to work fine, but how do I carry ...
by pjulian
Sat Feb 03, 2007 2:51 pm
Forum: Scripting
Topic: Uptime Limit variable for hotspot html pages
Replies: 0
Views: 1096

Uptime Limit variable for hotspot html pages

Is anybody able to tell me what (if any) is the variable to use for the total uptime limit of a hotspot user to insert in a webpage ? I can find session-time-left which is the actual time the user has left, but not the total time or time limit allocated to the user. The uptime variable is also avail...
by pjulian
Fri Jan 26, 2007 1:29 pm
Forum: The User Manager
Topic: block default page on MT
Replies: 19
Views: 5671

Why not change the default www port on the router to something else, then tell the user to go to some webpage on your website or something with a link to the router http://routername:port_number_you_changed_www_to/user. This is how we get around the problem, it also removes an open port 80 on your r...
by pjulian
Fri Jan 26, 2007 1:17 pm
Forum: The User Manager
Topic: Usermanager Disk Space requirements
Replies: 3
Views: 1822

Thanks a lot Sergejs, so I think the 4Gb I have allocated should be sufficient :-) Also, do you know if I buy a LEvel 5 license, can I upgrade to Level 6 ? I have tried to upgrade an existing Level 5 license in the license management section of your website, but it says it has all the features and c...
by pjulian
Fri Jan 19, 2007 1:43 am
Forum: The User Manager
Topic: Usermanager Disk Space requirements
Replies: 3
Views: 1822

Usermanager Disk Space requirements

Mikrotik guys or anybody else, could you please advise recommended disk space requirements for user manager. I am just about to purchase L6 license to use as a basic central admin system for hotspot users, and I need to get an idea of how much disk space will be consumed, and if there is anyway to c...
by pjulian
Sun Jan 14, 2007 2:52 pm
Forum: The User Manager
Topic: UseManger and PPPoE Maximum clients with Level 4
Replies: 15
Views: 6169

I have to agree with Giepie here. Whilst I also agree that the UM licenses should increase with the license levels, I think that if you are using UM in a serious way to run multiple hotspots or similar, then purchase a Level 6 license and put it with you back end infrastructure on a proper server. I...
by pjulian
Sun Jan 14, 2007 2:46 pm
Forum: The User Manager
Topic: block default page on MT
Replies: 19
Views: 5671

You know how you could handle this is to perhaps set up a DNS record in the router of whatever, say, user.customer.com and point that to an IP address of a web server somewhere in your network. Set the default page on the webserver to do a redirect to the correct usermanager page and you're sorted. ...
by pjulian
Mon Dec 04, 2006 3:40 pm
Forum: The Dude
Topic: Email Notifications
Replies: 5
Views: 2305

I also found this to be a problem initially, and it turned out to be that Dude alerted once for a state change from up to unstable, then for the state change from up to down. You seem to have selected the items that are most logical, like I did, but I ended up just keeping up to down and down to up....
by pjulian
Tue Oct 31, 2006 12:26 am
Forum: Scripting
Topic: How to upload a script using FTP?
Replies: 9
Views: 3899

The import script is exactly as I wrote in my previous post, just the import command with the script name, really simple. Here is an example of a script that I import to run blacklists and whitelists: ****************************** /ip firewall rule blacklist :foreach i in=[/ip firewall rule blackli...
by pjulian
Sun Oct 29, 2006 11:40 pm
Forum: Scripting
Topic: How to upload a script using FTP?
Replies: 9
Views: 3899

I always upload to the default location (FILES) and then use the scheduler to run the scripts and have never had an issue. They don't actually appear as scripts because they are files with script commands in them. Only a script they you have created within MT will appear in the script window. You mu...
by pjulian
Mon Sep 25, 2006 8:10 am
Forum: General
Topic: Encryption help.....
Replies: 0
Views: 842

Encryption help.....

Hi All, I have a couple of sites running in a hub and spoke config using DSL with 3 sites going back to the main one using PPTP VPN, all using MT boxes 2.9.x. With the connection to one remote site, and only one, I get errors "Terminating.... - Encryption got out of sync" in the logs of the main rou...
by pjulian
Mon Sep 18, 2006 4:51 pm
Forum: Scripting
Topic: How to upload a script using FTP?
Replies: 9
Views: 3899

Your script must have an extension of .rsc and to run it, just upload it to your router using FTP (binary mode) and then use the scheduler to run the script by using the command "/import scriptname.rsc" I do this all the time to dynamically update firewall rules and it works a treat. Some commands d...
by pjulian
Sun Jul 23, 2006 12:57 pm
Forum: The Dude
Topic: Dude suggestion
Replies: 1
Views: 1343

Dude suggestion

Hi Guys, I have been playing with Dude v2.0 Beta3 and was wondering if there was a chance of getting what I believe to be a very useful thing added. It would be great if you could disable a device so that it wasn't polled, then enable it again when you needed it polled again. It seems logical that y...
by pjulian
Sun Jul 16, 2006 2:42 pm
Forum: Wireless Networking
Topic: Hotspot Filters and priorities
Replies: 2
Views: 776

Hotspot Filters and priorities

I have been trying to figure out how to give different traffic priorities to different users who authenticate using the hotspot service. I can assign the bandwidth fine using user profiles, but I just can't figure out how to use the Incoming and Outgoing Packet Filters. I assume (....) that when you...
by pjulian
Sat May 06, 2006 7:12 am
Forum: General
Topic: transparent traffic shaper
Replies: 35
Views: 9460

Guys, Here is a template that I use to create bandwidth management queues. First it creates the marking rules, then it creates the queues. I use this to manage a number of links from a datacentre, and it works fine with 2.9.17 and bridged interfaces. I also have one for 2.8.x as well. Let me know if...
by pjulian
Sat May 06, 2006 6:56 am
Forum: General
Topic: Limit on Bytes column in queue tree
Replies: 0
Views: 520

Limit on Bytes column in queue tree

Hi, Does anybody know if there is a limit on the amount of bytes shown in the "Bytes" column under queue trees ? I have some queues setup, and they are working fine, but I'm sure that there has been a lot more data match the queues than it is saying. I'm wondering if MT might wrap the bytes amount w...
by pjulian
Fri Apr 28, 2006 10:40 am
Forum: The Dude
Topic: Links between devices
Replies: 3
Views: 1714

Legend !, thanks
Paul
by pjulian
Sun Apr 16, 2006 11:02 am
Forum: The Dude
Topic: Links between devices
Replies: 3
Views: 1714

Links between devices

Hi, Does anybody know how I can create a link between devices in Dude ?
I can create a link from a subnet to a device, but I can't add one from a device to a device which I would like to be able to do.
any suggestions ?
Thanks
Paul
by pjulian
Tue Mar 28, 2006 2:33 pm
Forum: General
Topic: Radius & MySQL Question
Replies: 5
Views: 1405

Thanks Ken, but I think you need linux/Unix for Freeside, is that correct ? I'm starting to teach myself how to talk to a MySQL DB with Perl and see where I get with that. If I can read in the info from the accounting logs, then rewrite the user records in mysql that Radius looks at, I should be rig...
by pjulian
Tue Mar 28, 2006 10:50 am
Forum: General
Topic: Radius & MySQL Question
Replies: 5
Views: 1405

Thanks. I believe Alepo is quite expensive, any idea on the price of Rodopi ?

Paul
by pjulian
Mon Mar 27, 2006 10:59 pm
Forum: General
Topic: Radius & MySQL Question
Replies: 5
Views: 1405

Radius & MySQL Question

Just wondering if anybody has done something similar to the following, and could either offer me suggestions on a product to use, or some chargeable scripting time to do it. I need to be able to do the following for a hotspot type service: - Provide user with webpage to setup a password from an exis...
by pjulian
Sun Mar 19, 2006 2:53 am
Forum: General
Topic: Roaming hotspot users and radius
Replies: 3
Views: 947

Also, I am using a user file for user attributes and standard radius accounting log on my radius server (Freeradius)
by pjulian
Sun Mar 19, 2006 2:52 am
Forum: General
Topic: Roaming hotspot users and radius
Replies: 3
Views: 947

I can get the accounting working fine, but what I can't figure out is how do I use the accounting information that the AP sends back to the radius server to modify the user attributes and reduce the uptime and/or usage left for the user ? For example: User1 logs on and gets radius attributes saying ...
by pjulian
Sat Mar 18, 2006 4:55 pm
Forum: General
Topic: HOTSPOT + WLAN interface u have this config come in
Replies: 1
Views: 658

The best thing to try would be to run the hotspot setup wizard, it sets everything up for you and it's very easy. Just select your WLAN interface as the hotspot interface and you should be fine. It might also be a good idea to keep your WLAN interface and network on a separate IP range to your ether...
by pjulian
Sat Mar 18, 2006 11:43 am
Forum: General
Topic: Roaming hotspot users and radius
Replies: 3
Views: 947

Roaming hotspot users and radius

I have been trying to figure this out for some time now, and hopefully sombody may be able to help. How do you track a users login time and bytes in/out when they roam between hotspots when using radius to authenticate them? I am using freeradius, MT, and hotspot feature in MT. I can't understand ho...
by pjulian
Wed Mar 08, 2006 12:01 pm
Forum: General
Topic: Hotspot Page Modifications
Replies: 4
Views: 1015

Good point, that would be the logical way to approach it, I'll give that a try in the next couple of days.

Thanks

Paul
by pjulian
Tue Mar 07, 2006 11:25 pm
Forum: General
Topic: Hotspot Page Modifications
Replies: 4
Views: 1015

I want to use 2.9 but I don't think that it will upgrade all of my firewall rules, maybe I'm wrong, but I have a lot of config and I know the format of the firewall rules and things are different in 2.9

Paul
by pjulian
Tue Mar 07, 2006 12:39 pm
Forum: General
Topic: Hotspot Page Modifications
Replies: 4
Views: 1015

Hotspot Page Modifications

Hi, I am trying to make the hotspot servlet in 2.8.28 redirect to another page other than the one the user orginally requested. In the MT documentation it says how to change this to make it happen, however when I make the changes it makes no difference, the user still gets redirected to their reques...
by pjulian
Thu Sep 22, 2005 1:29 am
Forum: General
Topic: Mangle Reliability Question
Replies: 3
Views: 998

Correct, but a packet will only match an accept rule if the criteria is correct. But what I'm seeing is that you create a passthrough rule for example, and in the middle of the list it does nothing, doesn't match any traffic, but at the top of the list it matches traffic. YOu then move it back to wh...
by pjulian
Wed Sep 21, 2005 6:26 am
Forum: General
Topic: Mangle Reliability Question
Replies: 3
Views: 998

Mangle Reliability Question

Hi, I have been setting up some bandwidth management for a customer using MT 2.8.28 and all has been relatively well. However, sometimes when I create a new mangle rule, it does nothing, no matching of data. However, when I move the rule to another location in the list, like the top, it then starts ...
by pjulian
Fri Jan 28, 2005 11:39 am
Forum: Scripting
Topic: How to create a script from a txt file on MT Router
Replies: 2
Views: 1915

Thanks very much, I will give that a try.

Regards

Paul
by pjulian
Thu Jan 27, 2005 3:41 pm
Forum: Scripting
Topic: How to create a script from a txt file on MT Router
Replies: 2
Views: 1915

How to create a script from a txt file on MT Router

Does anybody know how I can dynamically create a script in MT from a txt file on the box ? I want to be able to have a script which runs every 1 minute or so, and that script reads a file in from the router, which is FTP'd to the router, and then creates a script from that file which is then execute...
by pjulian
Tue Jun 22, 2004 10:32 am
Forum: General
Topic: nstreme
Replies: 33
Views: 26210

I also see very low speeds with nstreme. I am using two 2.4Ghz PC's with 512MB RAM, Atheros AR5212 b/g cards running in G mode. I have tried so many different combinations of settings that I don't think there are any left ! During bench testing, using the standard "rubber duckie" antennas, I can onl...
by pjulian
Sun Jun 13, 2004 1:58 pm
Forum: General
Topic: Wireless Cards [Netgear WG311]
Replies: 2
Views: 1713

Wireless Cards [Netgear WG311]

Folks, just went out and bought a Netgear WG311 V2 card today to start some more testing with my MT box, but it won't recognise it. I checked with Netgear, and they say it is the AR5212 Atheros chipset, which the supported device list indicates will work, but it just does not show. Any suggestions o...