Bit of a problem

savage · May 9, 2009, 2:56am

Hi,

I cannot seem to have both the multicast, as well as routing[-test] packages installed on a Mikrotik? Is this by design? How would I be able to obtain both OSPF as well as Multicast support?

I am looking at deploying tripple play services to roughly 250 customers (initially), and want to make use of MT naturally to do so - especially on the customer side. My problem is that IPTV relies extensively on Multicast, and IGMP subscriptions and the like (we are looking at about 600mbit/s of IPTV traffic, therefore, Multicast becomes critical to reduce the traffic on the infrastructure). To ease routing, I was thinking of OSPF on the CPE in order to advertise the adresses in use at the CPE, instead of having to go enter 750 odd static routes myself.

Would MT allow for Multicast subscriptions, without the need of the Multicast packages in this scenario? The /30 uplink would be on a seperated VLAN, operating on Cisco 2960 and 3560 switches. My Core Routers would thus run 250 VLANs on a trunk interface connected to the switches, and the core routers would distribute IP data via OSPF / Static routes. I’m really not sure how the Multicast would be dealt with in this scenario?

Any feedback seriously appreciated…
Customer Network.jpg

Chupaka · May 9, 2009, 2:29pm

hm… VLANs?.. I think, for multicast you should use different VLAN, because in ‘vlan per IP’ (or 'interface per user, that is the same) setup there’s practically no difference between multicast and unicast

savage · May 9, 2009, 4:31pm

Hmm yes - Good point!

Would Multicast be passed through the routers without the Mulicast package installed though?

The problem is that whilst there is 600mbit/s of broadcast from the IPTV Head End, naturally, on the CPE side they only receive what they watch. Now, given multiple TVs per home, what happens when 2 TVs watch two different streams? Then I basically would need say, 2 x Multicast subscriptions to different CPEs for Channel 1, and 1 x Multicast Subscription on Channel 2.

I’m unsure how Mikrotik would handle the IGMP subscriptions on the Core Router without the Multicast package, and I can’t run both routing and Multicast packages on the same routers…

Chupaka · May 9, 2009, 6:00pm

unfortunately you cannot run routing-test with multicast, but do you really need it? what’s with routing package?

p.s. you may try to contact support@mikrotik.com for multicast package that will work with routing-test. or maybe they will suggest you something else

savage · May 15, 2009, 2:21pm

Multicast & Routing-Test will work together in next ROS version I’ve been told

Also just need PIM proxy at the CPE side… At the head-end side, the traffic won’t even go through the RB1000. The switch will manage all the IGMP subscriptions internally across the multiple VLAN interfaces as far as I understand the Cisco documentation. This will only therefore become a issue when I want to route Multicast to other sites, which means a Point-to-Point connection between two or more core routers, or where multiple clusters of switches are not connected to each other.

Damn, I love Cisco…

Chupaka · June 15, 2009, 5:26pm

still not =(

savage · June 16, 2009, 4:09am

Yeah. I share your paint

mrz · June 16, 2009, 5:18am

Multicast and routing works and will work together only in v4.0

savage · June 16, 2009, 5:55am

Had that conversation with support many times before afaik,

I cannot run a production network on beta software,
If V4 is the same as V3 (as support claims), then 1) why call it v4, and even more so, why call it beta?
V4 is not updated when V3 is. 3.25 has just been released, fixing quite a bit of stuff… No update for v4 - what are we, running your beta software, supposed to do about the bugs now?

Yet, MT expects me to run over 250 routers on beta software, just so that I can have ospf and multicast support? Two things which has really nothing to do with each other… Perception is a big thing, not only for us, your customers, but for our clients as well. I can just imagine what my customers should think when they realise I’m running a network on software flagged as beta.

mrz · June 16, 2009, 6:18am

Nobody were telling that v3 is the same as v4 and nobody is forcing you to use beta software. What was told is that Routing-test in v3.x is the same as routing in v4 that works together with installed multicast package. If you can’t live without multicast then we are giving an option and you have rights to choose whether to use it or not.

savage · June 16, 2009, 6:35am

sigh.

As I said, this has been at support already, and talked through extensively… Some of the emails:

Hi,

I've just upgraded my ROS to 3.24 - I cannot run routing-test 
together with the Multicast package as you said I would be able to.

I can run Multicast and Routing-Test together on v4 however... 
 
Please advise.

response

Hello,

Sorry, my mistake, it is not possible in v3.24.
If you want routing-test and multicast then upgrade to v4.0beta3

Regards,
Maris

and

Dear Chris,

Maybe Maris wasn't clear on this, but I would like to emphasize that v3.24 is identical to v4.0beta3 with the only difference being "test" packages renamed to regular. This means you already are using the same version, and it works for you, so there should be no problem upgrading to the "beta". 

Regards,
Normunds

If you read my post, you will see that this is for a IPTV deployment, in which Multicast is CRITICALLY important. So yes I require multicast. And trust me, I am very seriously considering alternative equipment at this stage. 3.25 from what I’ve read so far seems to be another one of those releases that just never made it to the Q&A Department.

Instead of going off and attacking, defending, and analysing everything to the point of no return, perhaps MT should just spend a little bit more time to listed to what their customers want and implement it where possible, rather than just going and doing what they feel is best and to hell with the rest.

I am still waiting for MT to supply me with good reasons why multicast together with routing cannot be implemented in v3, but can be in v4… And I’m not refering to test packages. As normis indicated, 3.24 is identical to v4beta3 with the exception of BETA packages. So, in v4beta3 I can run routing package together with multicast package. Why can’t I do it in v3?

Again, instead of giving reasons and exlpaining things, the simlpe answer is run beta software or live without it - your exact stance as well… Hardly professional, and hardly what I call adequate customer support, and not even close to a solution to the problem.

janisk · June 17, 2009, 1:26pm

You can use routing and multicast package togather, if you want to use routing-test, you wont be able to use multicast package. This is true for version 3. if you need features from routing-test and you want to use multicast package your only option is to use 4.0beta at this point in time.

Also - router have to be aware of multicast to forward multicast packages, or you have create tunnel to connect two multicast isles together. Also, IPM-SM is only needed between source and RP of multicast group, if clients wont broadcast any multicast streams (or you don’t want to allow them to) you should set up IGMP-proxy as it is straight forward for simple implementations (star scheme, for example).

What problems exactly you have with routing package in 3.25? Just shouting that everything is bad wont help you to solve your current problems.

savage · June 17, 2009, 2:15pm

Finally a straight answer. Tested and confirmed on 3.23 and 3.24. Not sure why this hasn’t been done before though, my own stupidity…

IGMP-Proxy with one uplink and 4 downlink (RB450G) is all that is required, and perfect for our needs yes. Granted, we still need to see how it will work out in production…

Thanks for clearing this up Janisk.