NV2 Sync Support

Do not confuse phase adjustment, frequency adjustement for channels in the same synchronisation domain, and synchronisation to different sync domains.

Phase adjustment can be very fast, frequency adjustment as well if the two channels are synched to a same time reference.

Imagin two transmitters with two differents frequencies, and one receiver. If the two transmitters are synched to a common time reference, then switching from one channel to the other one in the receiver can be instantaneous, with a synthetised receiver. You don’t need to resync, just ask an new frequency, based on the actual internal time reference.
Internal time reference is extracted from the previous chanel, or received by an external precision clock (atomic time).

Eventually a small phase adjustment is needed at channel switching, but not more.

So for a receiver, if transmitters are synched to a common clock, it’s faster to synchronize when roaming because you can rely on the internal reference, extracted from the previous chanel lock.

This explain why there is a precision local oscillator inside mobile phones, this is to keep sync during roaming.


Syncing to different synchronisation domains is longer to achieve.


When you are roaming between GSM access points, the frequency of each access point is different, but the sync domain is the same, so even if phase and frequency are different seen from the receiver to each transmitter, fast roaming is easy.


Synching with asbolute phase is only needed for transmitters on the same tower, and yes it need a common sync feed. Not really difficult because on the same tower.

The good thing with sync, is that you can use more advanced receivers, with real time roaming, without adding heavy costs on the receiver side.

This was the goal with GSM networks : low cost and realtime roaming receivers.

Well the biggest issue right now is self interference on a single tower. With the poor quality of filters in current wireless cards it isn’t possible to even collocate three of your own AP’s running 10Mhz channels without causing self interference. A few years ago running 802.11 that and relatively low throughput this wasn’t a huge issue but now with NV2 and other TDMA based protocols trying to push 40M through an AP it is a huge problem.

I would be happy if MT could come up with at least a stop gap sync for collocated AP’s until they can come up with a full blown network wide sync.

Second this. As customers and bandwidth increases you’ll see more problems with
self interference. With low density installations you can live without sync.
We work around this problem using different bands (including licensed).

Well, you guys almost got me over. I have to consume things a bit.

But beside of this I am realising that my choice of using many towers in relative small cells (but with their needed backhauls) hasn’t been such a poor decision after all compared to that few communication towers the competition uses with some times over 100 antenna’s in them! (Might be all different band but Wimax and 5Ghz Wifi are not that far apart. And I am sure the big telcos use powerlevels for their stuff we can only dream off… Even if their used bands are miles away fm 5Ghz it probably still has an effect on our relative low end receivers… ) I’ve been jealous at these tower users.. but actually I am growing a big smile!

I am also not so much against synch. I only couldn’t understand this enthusiasm fm you guys for it. But after all your explanations you almost got me on the same boat… :smiley:

What chadd said about the poor quality filters in the present radio cards is hitting the nail on its head. I also wish manufactures of these would do better.
Why make cards most of us use for outdoor that support freq’s only allowed for indoor use?
If manufacturers of radio-cards AND of the antenna’s we use would more focus on the bands most of us really use than that would probably give reception already better characteristics in most situations.
A bit effort in improving the filters, hand in hand with synch, would create cards you’ll lick your fingers off for…

Seems difficult to get more selectivity on receivers without sensitivity loss.

What could be interesting is adjustable filters, but i’m afraid by the cost. This is available on high end HAM receivers, but there is infinitely more room inside the enclosures to do this…

What could be done perhaps is optimized cards :

\

  • very selective cards, with less sensitivity, for professionnal short range and high density networks

  • less slective cards, with better sensitivity, for general use.


    Frequency hopping could greatly help as well, this is often used when link reliability is a primary concern.

I don’t know. Are selectivity and sensitivity not two different, non related things?
Sensitivity is just how sensitive something is for what it is made for. So in radio this is just how weak a signal a receiver still can use. Most cards are doing pretty ok in this since they can even hear the background noise.

Selectivity is more like how focussed can be something to what it should do. In radio terms this would mean the more selective a radio is the better he will only hear that signal he should listen to and discard anything else.
This is the portion were probably still a lot can be gained. This is what a good filter should do, filter out all signals outside the frequency band a radio is told to listen too.

By having a good filter removing all ´non-desired´ frequencies it also lowers the background noise on the receiver. But ´noise´ that is in the frequency the radio has to listen to is still around at the same level as before. Here some higher layer filtering is required that more looks to what the signal is carrying instead of the signals itself. This is done with mac filtering (accept and connect-to list), encryption. But it should also be able to filter out signals coming for non digital source for instance. Microwaves, remote controls, etc.
For instance I already noticed that the use of the management protection key or the nv2 encryption already makes links more stable as compared to same links without any encryption. We just put another layer of filtering on the data stream that hits the processing unit.
(This is now beyond radio wave interferences off course. So a bit off topic.)

Imho sensitivity and selectivity are two things important to radios but are not necessary counter productive related to each-other.
A very selective radio can actually also be very sensitive. Military ´listening stations´ use very selective and very sensitive radio’s plus off course very sophisticated filters to reduce the crap.


Frequency hopping could greatly help as well, this is often used when link reliability is a primary concern.

How would that help if all channels in a band are already in use?

In this case frequency hopping can help because you can send more power, as you are using multiple channels.

If using ten channels, you can send ten times more power, staying in the regulatory domain limits.


And it’s easier to find gaps to transmitt if your are watching ten channels, than if you are watching only one channel.


Some low cost (civilian) 2.4 GHz radio transmitters in the RC world are using frequency hopping (Futaba FASST protocol).

You can use hundred transmitters at the same time on the band, with only 20 channels, and there is no interferences.

hmm, I am afraid I have to spend some more of my scarse time to read in on this. I think I don’t understand.. Is “frequency hopping” not something that the radio swaps to another channel all the time? I don’t understand how power is increased this way. Half a Watt is half a Watt. But obviously I am a ´dummy´ in freq. hpping! :frowning: But I am eager to learn! :slight_smile:

Yes half a watt is half a watt, but if the spectrum is larger as it is the case with frequency hopping, then relative power on each channel (mean power) is smaller.


Under FCC regulations, frequency hopping systems fulfilling certain requirements in the 902-
928 MHz band are allowed to transmit using up to 1W output power.

This document outlines the basic principles of frequency hopping :


http://focus.ti.com/general/docs/lit/getliterature.tsp?baseLiteratureNumber=swra077

When I first started in the business 8+ yrs ago I built our first network using Raylink “raytheon” FHSS gear. It did have advantages because you could co-locate many AP’s on the same tower just by setting them to different hop sequences. FHSS was about bullet proof when it came to interference mitigation but it was limited to 2Mbit over the air that = ~1.2Mbit real TCP throughput so while it was fine 8 yrs ago we quickly outgrew the limited capacity of the FHSS system.

I wouldn’t think it would be too difficult for MT to do tower based sync of multiple AP’s but who knows I guess. I do wish they would give us some hint of what they are working on and a time frame.

I understand the limitations.

But i’m quite sure it should be possible to design better protocols, using frequency hopping or similar technics, to get better link reliability and speed keeping a low cost.

Frequency hopping was used primirily on very expensive military radios, and we see it today on civilian RC transmitter or even low cost talky walky systems.

any update from MT on gps sync is very welcome!

seems not avoidable when there is a busy tower on Nv2.

Please update us un the planning stage.

Regards
Ros

The way I see sync being used is to use the frequency more effectiantly. If you have 25mhz of 3.65ghz. You have to use 3 of 5mhz channels. Thats not effeciant. Sync will work for this.

To solve your issue. Use RF shielding. That will work better for you than sync will. Plus you can use it now.

do you have any advice on wich ids the best product to rf shield the APs?

regards

use the Y shield from lessemf.com. Install on the sides and back of antenna. So the rf cant blast over to the other antenna. Grounding this shield is required.

dallas - i bought a can of this y shield … but havent used it for anything yet. do you have any pics or useful tips?

Just dont paint it in the front of the antenna. Every time you put on a layer. It doubles the shielding. Paint right to the ground of the antenna. You know right where the N connector is. Because that is your ground of the antenna. Then make sure that is grounded. Thats it.

If you need GPS sync now then there’s no reason not to use UBNT for layer 2 and Mikrotik for layer 3. For fancy sites I use UBNT radios with Cisco routers since there’s things RouterOS can’t do. I’d rather see Mikrotik focus on routerboard/routeros and UBNT focus on radio/antenna systems. It’s very common for me to plug a UBNT radio into a Routerboard at a customer site. Yeah, there’s two devices instead of all-in-one, but then again I’m not stuck making a decision like you have to make now because I have the flexibility of both. IMHO those are their strengths and trying to make either do everything for everyone will only make for a weaker product (lack of focus) or extremely expensive product in the long run.

Yeah, I know there are fanboys for both sides that think you have to go all one or the other and that the other is crap (like all the “cheap plastic” comments MT fans made of UBNT products in the past and then MT comes out with similar products in plastic), but that’s simply not true. Picking the strengths of each results in a far more robust and flexible system for both you and your customers. Then you’re not banging down the door of MT to get GPS sync out the door ASAP because even when they do, UBNT will still have had it in the field longer and have worked out many of the bugs and “real world” application complaints from their users.

I believe Mikrotik has done a very good job on ap to clients and there really is no reason why they can’t. My opinion is there ap to client is more powerful than any other manufacture. You just need to know how to set it up right. If you do that, its very powerful.

I would be very cautious about the long term mixing of components from different manufacturers, while at present i use XR5 with 433Ah’s but what would be the result if say XR5 component build was changed, could we find it would not work properly with Mikrotik proprietary wireless protocols?