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normis
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Double QoS for v6 is possible

Mon Nov 05, 2012 1:56 pm

Thanks to your feedback in v6.0RC3 we will have some changes in QoS features.

We made simple queues completely independent from "Global" queue tree. Now simple queues will happen after "Global" queue tree:
packetflowv6.png
So there is no more need to remember who will get traffic first - simple queues or queues in "Global" queue tree. Now traffic can be captured by both separately and independently. This also give you possibility to implement Double QoS again.

1) mark traffic by type in mangle, and apply limitations by traffic type in "Global" queue tree
2) use dynamic simple queues from ppp servers or RADIUS or create simple queues manually and use PCQ for limiting traffic per user, "target" and "dst" options should allow us to make per-user-limitation without any problems
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Re: Double QoS for v6 is possible

Mon Nov 05, 2012 11:43 pm

Nice feature; good work.
 
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Re: Double QoS for v6 is possible

Tue Nov 06, 2012 11:56 am

one global (well, not about global queues, but about ideology :) ) question: do we still need queue tree at all?

in the light of kernel-level optimizations of Simple Queues and remembering Occam's razor to make queues more homogeneous, maybe it worths to transform Queue Tree to another set of Simple Queues (like Queues Step 1 and Step 2, or something)

currently simple queues are smart enough to install only necessary part of its subqueues (upload/download), so theoretically it won't affect performance. moreover, it will simplify understanding of queueing ("what should I use - queue tree or simple queues?") and you can use all delights of simple queues (like built-in Graphing, so you won't need some dedicated MRTG machine to draw some part of your queues unaffected by standard tools)
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Re: Double QoS for v6 is possible

Tue Nov 06, 2012 12:45 pm

To Chupaka:

Well sounds like these are nice ideas for RouterOS v7.x and v8.x. Only thing that is not covered in your idea is Interface HTB, i can't see it completely implemented into simple queues. and Parent that doesn't need to capture all the traffic for children first is very nice queue tree feature.

I for one like this implementation, looks simple and should provide the same set of features. Just in different way.
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Re: Double QoS for v6 is possible

Tue Nov 06, 2012 1:38 pm

Can anyone explain to me what's the meaning of the priority parameter in Simple Queues. I do understand what this parameters does when specified on the child queues in a Queue Tree, but that does not quite seem to apply to Simple Queues... Or does it? Any thoughts?
 
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Re: Double QoS for v6 is possible

Tue Nov 06, 2012 1:38 pm

yep, probably it's too late to change Simple Queues for parent=interface in v6...

but changing queues behaviour in every version is not good also %)

the main idea is to generalize work with queues, making it similar for currently separated things, nothing more :)

for example, allowing parent=ether1 in Simple queues may just disable 'upload' and 'total' options instead of necessity of using extra term 'Queue tree'
and Parent that doesn't need to capture all the traffic for children first is very nice queue tree feature
maybe I don't know something about simple queues and their parents, but I thought it's the same as in queue tree, and ordering of simple queues was due to hidden mangle rules created by simple queues...
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Re: Double QoS for v6 is possible

Tue Nov 06, 2012 1:43 pm

Can anyone explain to me what's the meaning of the priority parameter in Simple Queues. I do understand what this parameters does when specified on the child queues in a Queue Tree, but that does not quite seem to apply to Simple Queues... Or does it? Any thoughts?
as far as I (I hope) can (still) understand, Simple Queue with parent=none creates up to three hidden queues of queue tree with parent=global (well, according to this topic, simple queues are now completely separated from queue tree, so let's call it one more queue tree with the name 'global-2' :) )
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Re: Double QoS for v6 is possible

Tue Nov 06, 2012 1:44 pm

Guys, can you test the new queues in the new rc3 on your development download page? Todays build
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Re: Double QoS for v6 is possible

Tue Nov 06, 2012 1:49 pm

Can anyone explain to me what's the meaning of the priority parameter in Simple Queues. I do understand what this parameters does when specified on the child queues in a Queue Tree, but that does not quite seem to apply to Simple Queues... Or does it? Any thoughts?
In simple queues you can also make queue structures, with parent and child queues. In that case priority will halp to distribute parents traffic - similar to queue tree. In case you have all your simple queues in same level (no parent queues) you will not be able to see priority in action - as from simple queue perspective there is no bottleneck and no need to drop anything more than its max-limit.
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Re: Double QoS for v6 is possible

Tue Nov 06, 2012 2:18 pm

Guys, can you test the new queues in the new rc3 on your development download page? Todays build
when I change max-limit in Queue Tree, the queue catches no more packets, but some 'hidden' queue with old parameters is still working :) disabling/enabling the queue did not solve the issue, only reboot helps
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Re: Double QoS for v6 is possible

Tue Nov 06, 2012 3:22 pm

one global (well, not about global queues, but about ideology :) ) question: do we still need queue tree at all?

in the light of kernel-level optimizations of Simple Queues and remembering Occam's razor to make queues more homogeneous, maybe it worths to transform Queue Tree to another set of Simple Queues (like Queues Step 1 and Step 2, or something)

currently simple queues are smart enough to install only necessary part of its subqueues (upload/download), so theoretically it won't affect performance. moreover, it will simplify understanding of queueing ("what should I use - queue tree or simple queues?") and you can use all delights of simple queues (like built-in Graphing, so you won't need some dedicated MRTG machine to draw some part of your queues unaffected by standard tools)
My understanding is that simple queues are ordered, therefore evaluated one by one. This is less efficient than queue tree, which is evaluated by packet mark from firewall mangle. Therefore in a very complex setup queue trees are more efficient. Also in lab testing it appears simple queues don't adhere strictly to HTB rules for bandwidth re-distribution
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Re: Double QoS for v6 is possible

Tue Nov 06, 2012 3:44 pm

My understanding is that simple queues are ordered, therefore evaluated one by one. This is less efficient than queue tree, which is evaluated by packet mark from firewall mangle. Therefore in a very complex setup queue trees are more efficient. Also in lab testing it appears simple queues don't adhere strictly to HTB rules for bandwidth re-distribution
have you seen v6 presentation from MUM? they redesigned simple queues, so now thousands of simple queues are not problem. and if that new "Ex-Tree Simple" queues will create just hidden queue tree queues, without performance loss, it will be more obvoius than having two separate interfaces. that's it :)
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Re: Double QoS for v6 is possible

Tue Nov 06, 2012 4:38 pm

I have not seen it yet. If what you are saying is accurate then I agree, queue tree should not be required.
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Re: Double QoS for v6 is possible

Tue Nov 06, 2012 5:34 pm

one global (well, not about global queues, but about ideology :) ) question: do we still need queue tree at all?
1. I want to shape uplink/downlink traffic, and doesn't want to shape local traffic - simple queue shape all traffic going to/from interface and don't look it if local (low-price) or external (expensive).

2. I want use all features of HTB and hierarchical queues is one of them. For example I want to make 2 groups of users and give for 1st group guaranteed bandwidth and for 2nd all other bandwidth. Usually it help us in critical situations then one of uplinks is down.
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Re: Double QoS for v6 is possible

Tue Nov 06, 2012 9:53 pm

1. I want to shape uplink/downlink traffic, and doesn't want to shape local traffic - simple queue shape all traffic going to/from interface and don't look it if local (low-price) or external (expensive).
isn't it possible with simple queues?

ros code

/queue type
add kind=pcq name=up-1m   pcq-classifier=src-address pcq-rate=1M
add kind=pcq name=down-1m pcq-classifier=dst-address pcq-rate=1M
/queue simple
add name=queue1 target=LAN dst=WAN queue=up-1m/down-1m
2. I want use all features of HTB and hierarchical queues is one of them. For example I want to make 2 groups of users and give for 1st group guaranteed bandwidth and for 2nd all other bandwidth. Usually it help us in critical situations then one of uplinks is down.
do you know that simple queues do have 'parent' property? it's for hierarchy creation :)

again, I do NOT wat to remove some functionality, I want to make single powerful interface instead of splitting it on tabs with two _similar_ functions, and current state of v6 simple queues gives great possibilities for that :)
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Re: Double QoS for v6 is possible

Tue Nov 06, 2012 10:14 pm

1. I want to shape uplink/downlink traffic, and doesn't want to shape local traffic - simple queue shape all traffic going to/from interface and don't look it if local (low-price) or external (expensive).
isn't it possible with simple queues?

ros code

/queue type
add kind=pcq name=up-1m   pcq-classifier=src-address pcq-rate=1M
add kind=pcq name=down-1m pcq-classifier=dst-address pcq-rate=1M
/queue simple
add name=queue1 target=LAN dst=WAN queue=up-1m/down-1m
Simple queues are simple only for simple tasks. It is difficult for me to understand if this code solves my problem.
Ok, for example
1. ether-wan is uplink (expensive traffic)
2. vlan1 is first client
3. vlan2 is second client
4. vlan3_1 is first office of third client
5. vlan3_2 is second office of third client

First our server should shape in such way:
* first client have 1mbit of uplink traffic
* second client have 2mit of uplink traffic
* traffic between first and second client should not go through queue, i.e. first and second client can communicate at wire speed.
and we have about 1200 users per server

Second our server should shape in such way:
* first office of third client have 3mbit of uplink traffic
* second office of third client have 4mbit of uplink traffic
* traffic from first office to second office need shape to 10mbit
* traffic from second office to first office need shape also to 10mbit
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Re: Double QoS for v6 is possible

Tue Nov 06, 2012 11:15 pm

SQ seems to work good and solved problem with btest over nv2 link....
Can you tell me in shortage meaning of double qos?
What is the point of ip settings(why is that good for?)
 
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Re: Double QoS for v6 is possible

Wed Nov 07, 2012 1:53 pm

Guys, can you test the new queues in the new rc3 on your development download page? Todays build
when I change max-limit in Queue Tree, the queue catches no more packets, but some 'hidden' queue with old parameters is still working :) disabling/enabling the queue did not solve the issue, only reboot helps
this is fixed in the new rc3 build
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Re: Double QoS for v6 is possible

Wed Nov 07, 2012 3:55 pm


Simple queues are simple only for simple tasks.
simple queues are named this way due to historic reasons, at the start they where simple, but now, these can be considered simple only because you look at the name and if you use only basic features - set target and upload/download limit. And now here are so much more options what can be done with simple queues.
 
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Re: Double QoS for v6 is possible

Wed Nov 07, 2012 5:10 pm

From looking at the diagram it appears that Queue Trees hit first, then simple queues are applied?
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Re: Double QoS for v6 is possible

Fri Nov 09, 2012 9:47 am

From looking at the diagram it appears that Queue Trees hit first, then simple queues are applied?
yep, now both are completely separate things.
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Re: Double QoS for v6 is possible

Fri Nov 09, 2012 2:25 pm

From looking at the diagram it appears that Queue Trees hit first, then simple queues are applied?
yep, now both are completely separate things.
Excellent!
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Re: Double QoS for v6 is possible

Wed Nov 14, 2012 7:36 am

I played with this last night and still could not get it to work, so had to roll back to V5. I suppose I have made things more complicated for myself by expanding my network and using 2 more local interfaces on my RB1100ah.

Anyhow, I was using double QOS with NAT.

My ether1 is public facing (multiple public Ip's)
My ether 2 is Local facing (Public Ip's Natted across to customers who are grouped by service level) [ 6 groups so 6 public Ip's]

I only QOS upload using Tree with the parent being the Ether1, since its not possible to QOS download if you cant tell in what order packets are arriving anyway.

And I use address lists for the groups of customers.

I nearly understood the modified block diagram of Normis (nice), but it all seemed to go wrong (in my head) as soon as I started to consider the Nat.

And I am a fan of PCQ, I looked at the double qos method suggested before using SQ, but that would have meant 8 SQ's per client ( I use 8 levels of traffic priority) multiplied by the number of clients.

Is there an update to wiki for these changes.

I've seen plenty of comments on various threads regarding examples that don't "fit the bill", but I think that there are a few thousand of us with the same "stock set-ups" that need more clearer guidance and examples for double qos with the NAT scenario.

EG: an example that we can play around with, based on:

Qos upload against 1 public interface by traffic type
Bandwidth distribution to clients that are natted .

I have a basic grasp of PCQ now, and I really liked it, but I have to say that without a wiki things are becoming more confused especially when the packet flow through the interfaces are changing between ROS versions.
 
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Re: Double QoS for v6 is possible

Wed Nov 14, 2012 7:14 pm

Nobody using NAT??
 
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Re: Double QoS for v6 is possible

Thu Nov 15, 2012 5:34 pm

What's the reason for having SQ and QTree on INPUT? DDoS? VPN Tunnel shaping?

Also, what does it mean that PCQ is NAT aware? Is it so the pre src-NAT IP is used as source IP to classify a stream?
 
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Re: Double QoS for v6 is possible

Thu Nov 15, 2012 9:02 pm

Well I think the silence is worrying and so is the lack of help.

MT, why do you "dump" these new ROS or changed things in our lap without adequate support.

Even the wiki is out of date and of no use.

Where have all the "old timers" gone, is no one using NAT and doing double QOS with version 6???
 
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Re: Double QoS for v6 is possible

Thu Nov 15, 2012 9:21 pm

Thanks to your feedback in v6.0RC3 we will have some changes in QoS features.

We made simple queues completely independent from "Global" queue tree. Now simple queues will happen after "Global" queue tree:
packetflowv6.png
So there is no more need to remember who will get traffic first - simple queues or queues in "Global" queue tree. Now traffic can be captured by both separately and independently. This also give you possibility to implement Double QoS again.

1) mark traffic by type in mangle, and apply limitations by traffic type in "Global" queue tree
2) use dynamic simple queues from ppp servers or RADIUS or create simple queues manually and use PCQ for limiting traffic per user, "target" and "dst" options should allow us to make per-user-limitation without any problems
I usually do double qos by prioritizing traffic in prerouting section and shape in postrouting.
In a routing scenario i mark packets in prerouting to address them in a prioritizing queue (eg. using global-in) and then
remark them in fw-postrouting to be able to shape on global-out or interface queue.
this is straightforward because i can mark twice by using 2 separate and independant stage.
how can i apply the same logic in v6 if queueing section must uses only fw-postrouting marks ??
i guess in the near future someone implements the possibility to make multiple mark for packet, eg. new-packet-mark=mcr1,bes1,blablamark in this case more flexibility is added into qos...
 
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Re: Double QoS for v6 is possible

Fri Nov 16, 2012 12:10 am

What's the reason for having SQ and QTree on INPUT? DDoS? VPN Tunnel shaping?
customers' upload when using WebProxy? ;)
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Re: Double QoS for v6 is possible

Mon Nov 19, 2012 8:01 am

What's the reason for having SQ and QTree on INPUT? DDoS? VPN Tunnel shaping?
customers' upload when using WebProxy? ;)
i think you Talk about cause of Change in QOS Packet Flow ( Flowchart ) ( Queue in Input Direction ) This is True ?

But , In Which Scenario and Situation You Want to Classify Customers Upload , Usage , Cause ?

Do you Have a Scenario ?
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Re: Double QoS for v6 is possible

Mon Nov 19, 2012 12:59 pm

sure. when I limit customer's upload and download speed, I want it to be limited even in case of WebProxy usage
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Re: Double QoS for v6 is possible

Mon Nov 19, 2012 6:47 pm

sure. when I limit customer's upload and download speed, I want it to be limited even in case of WebProxy usage

Yes This is True , But Proles Is Here , in Almost all network users does not need Proxy for Upload .

Actually Proxy is Used for Decrease BW Usage and also Traffic Usage ( Internet Connection or ... )

So , Cache and Web Proxy in Common is Use for Inbound Traffic ( Download For Users & Customers )

So , Can be Use Input Chain , But its not Necessary for Web Proxy or ... :D

Anyway , Thank You !
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Re: Double QoS for v6 is possible

Fri Jan 11, 2013 6:26 am

Any successful configurations in high PPS multi-WAN multi-LAN environments? :) Do not brag - just post the config.
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Re: Double QoS for v6 is possible

Sat Mar 30, 2013 10:17 am

Please add the parameter "address-list" for the simple queue in ROS v6 ! it is not a dificult, but very usefull for many users
thanks ;p
 
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Re: Double QoS for v6 is possible

Wed Apr 10, 2013 4:10 pm

Please add the parameter "address-list" for the simple queue in ROS v6 ! it is not a dificult, but very usefull for many users
thanks ;p
That would be a useful feature indeed. I would really like to see it.
 
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Re: Double QoS for v6 is possible

Wed Apr 10, 2013 4:27 pm

you just mark necessary address-list in Mangle, then set packet-mark in Simple Queue
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Re: Double QoS for v6 is possible

Wed Apr 10, 2013 4:37 pm

you just mark necessary address-list in Mangle, then set packet-mark in Simple Queue
Yes of course. But wouldn't be better to not have mangle rules at all? Simpler configuration.
 
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Re: Double QoS for v6 is possible

Thu Apr 11, 2013 5:37 pm

you just mark necessary address-list in Mangle, then set packet-mark in Simple Queue
Yes of course. But wouldn't be better to not have mangle rules at all? Simpler configuration.
however, it makes the rules itselve "a bit" harder to implement. and, less transparent.
 
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Re: Double QoS for v6 is possible

Mon Apr 15, 2013 11:54 am

you just mark necessary address-list in Mangle, then set packet-mark in Simple Queue
but then you can't build double queueing ;p ...
because you mark services... then you do remark (address-list) ... so you lost mark for services without queueing ...
in this situation ...this is not a solution ....

PS.
I was ask question to support and I have got answer:
Hello,

Yes, we know about this feature request, but currently we don't have a way to do
it without slowing down performance significantly. Using mangle and packet mark
will be much faster than direct address-list approach. That is the only reason we
are not implementing this feature.

Regards,
Janis Megis
abandonment idea of double qos by mikrotik in v6 is very failed me....
 
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Re: Double QoS for v6 is possible

Mon Apr 15, 2013 4:12 pm

Cheer up. If there are no crashes and the queues actually work, when v6 final is realease, - you should be able to use the new design to do what you need :)
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Re: Double QoS for v6 is possible

Tue Apr 16, 2013 9:37 am

ok but I write again
for double queueing v6 must use something for group users... packet mark or address-list to be suitable and scalable
in this moment for double queue I have to use indyvidual queues for every user ... and in this situation I cant use pcq for dynamic rates...


address-lists is wonderful tool for grouping users....I can't imagine simple queues without this option ;
 
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Re: Double QoS for v6 is possible

Tue Apr 16, 2013 9:54 am

Dynamic rates? Setting another queue as the parent of a simple queue will not work for you ?

Looks like the big number of simple queues can safely replace PCQ especially for big number of packets per second?
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Re: Double QoS for v6 is possible

Tue Apr 16, 2013 1:23 pm

Dynamic rates? Setting another queue as the parent of a simple queue will not work for you ?
I dont understand... so I have to manualy create parent for group of users (group of simple queues) ... what about automatic creates simple queue... (for example from pppoe) I cant change the parent... so I have to create this queue manualy..
now my php/api software only add IP to address list... and thats all ....
now in v6 I have to creates complicated trees in simple queue for every client/group to do the same...
this is not a improvement !.....

I have two trees one for client limitation and one for services (when I have heavy network load ... peak load) queue tree guards the good level of services,

in firewall mangle before packet mark of client groups, I have mangle dns traffic, icmp etc... and this is in another queue (not in client limitation) ...
I have a couple of lists to dynamic limitation .....

I use address-list to many things...

with double queueing idea from v3,v4,5v this is very simple to do ... in v6 I can't do this ...

if I will be able use address-list in simple queue I will be able to do this, or if I can use packet-mark from mangle (but curently I cant because before I prioritize services ...i lost packet-mark ... )
this is a big problem so no I dont use v6...

I have a information from several networks with the same problem ...


the only advantage in v6 in traffic control is faster simple queue.... but I dont think that faster simple queues is more important than double qos idea....
especially that queue tree is the same fast ... and in v5 I can use mangle + tree to do simple client limitation (for example address-list in pppoe profile ...so I mark and create simple tree, the same situation in hotspot profile)... so were is the plus of simple queues ...when I can create the same in a simpler and faster way with queue tree + address-list (or dynamic address-list for pppoe or hot-spot profiles).... IN V6 I CAN'T DO MANY IDEAS !!!! .. andI lost the pros double queueing idea....

so I dont understand what is so important in faster simple queue at the expense of double queues idea .....
 
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Re: Double QoS for v6 is possible

Tue Apr 30, 2013 3:21 pm

Sorry, I can not understand with simple rules. How will these rules with version 5 to 6:

/ip firewall mangle
add action=mark-packet chain=prerouting comment="Pam_Unlim_500_x2 SRC" disabled=no \
new-packet-mark=Pam_Unlim_500_x2-OUT passthrough=yes src-address-list=Pam_Unlim_500_x2
add action=mark-packet chain=postrouting comment="Pam_Unlim_500_x2 DST" disabled=no \
dst-address-list=Pam_Unlim_500_x2 new-packet-mark=Pam_Unlim_500_x2-IN passthrough=yes

/queue type
add kind=pcq name=Pam_Unlim_500_x2-IN pcq-burst-rate=0 pcq-burst-threshold=0 pcq-burst-time=\
10s pcq-classifier=dst-address pcq-dst-address-mask=32 \
pcq-dst-address6-mask=64 pcq-limit=50 pcq-rate=512k pcq-src-address-mask=\
32 pcq-src-address6-mask=64 pcq-total-limit=2000
add kind=pcq name=Pam_Unlim_500_x2-OUT pcq-burst-rate=0 pcq-burst-threshold=0 pcq-burst-time=\
10s pcq-classifier=src-address pcq-dst-address-mask=32 \
pcq-dst-address6-mask=64 pcq-limit=50 pcq-rate=512k pcq-src-address-mask=\
32 pcq-src-address6-mask=64 pcq-total-limit=2000

/queue tree
add burst-limit=0 burst-threshold=0 burst-time=0s disabled=no limit-at=0 \
max-limit=0 name=Pam_Unlim_500_x2-IN packet-mark=Pam_Unlim_500_x2-IN parent=global-out priority=1 \
queue=Pam_Unlim_500_x2-IN
add burst-limit=0 burst-threshold=0 burst-time=0s disabled=no limit-at=0 \
max-limit=0 name=Pam_Unlim_500_x2-OUT packet-mark=Pam_Unlim_500_x2-OUT parent=global-in priority=1 \
queue=Pam_Unlim_500_x2-OUT
 
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Re: Double QoS for v6 is possible

Thu May 16, 2013 5:36 pm

what's problem with those rules?..
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Re: Double QoS for v6 is possible

Tue May 21, 2013 5:01 pm

There is a problem with queue simple and tree in v6 and we had to downgrade to keep running our network.


We have a hotspot that create dinamics simple queues for each user.
Web have a proxy cache.

in v5.x we have a mangle that all traffic coming from cache get mark and pass to a queue tree with more bandwidth to client than the hotspot queue.

But now with v6 the packets get mark, the packets go through queue tree but the final bandwidth is given by simple queue.

Any idea?
 
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Re: Double QoS for v6 is possible

Tue May 21, 2013 7:09 pm

as queue tree and simple queues are independent now, you need to create simple queue for cache traffic
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Turamarth
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Re: Double QoS for v6 is possible

Tue May 21, 2013 7:46 pm

so i can forgot queue tree and must do all simple queues :/
 
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Re: Double QoS for v6 is possible

Wed May 22, 2013 12:38 am

what's problem with that? what's significant difference? either you create a queue in the same place you limit your customers (what is actually more logical), or you use some other facility for that
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Turamarth
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Re: Double QoS for v6 is possible

Wed May 22, 2013 2:33 am

no, no problem at all with that, just need get used to think it other way.

anyway is working now with simple queues.

my last question is about the priority in queue list, i mean, the dynamic ones always are in top of the list.

how works the execution order in simple queue list? by order list? or by priority?
 
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Re: Double QoS for v6 is possible

Wed May 22, 2013 12:46 pm

by order, top to bottom. so if dynamic queues are added at the top, write to support@mikrotik.com so that they fix it. otherwise you won't be able to use your queue for cache hits after customer reconnect
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