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AlexLite
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extending network range

Wed Feb 17, 2016 10:22 am

hello
a complete newbie here with a brand new hap ac lite installed.

i would like to extend the wireless network range in my home. the hap is currently on one floor and on the second floor the throughput is only 10-20mbps.

i have got an ethernet cable between the two floors so i would like to purchase and additional piece of hardware from mikrotik that i could use to have better throughput. I d like to use the ethernet cable between them, possibly with poe, and migration to be seamless between the two APs. Configuration like DNS, etc i d like to do on only the master.

If possible i would also like to have ac on both of them, but i guess i can live without.

Maybe you guys could give me some advice on how to achieve the above in the most cost effective manner.

Sorry for all the requests, but this is all replacing an airport extreme setup that has worked simply and beautifully for the last 6 or so years without actually having to do anything. Love all the flexibility of router os, but still very much a newb...

Thanks
 
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pukkita
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Re: extending network range

Wed Feb 17, 2016 10:11 pm

It's not only possible but the most optimal approach (wiring both).

Once both Hap devices are wired, setup the wireless portion of the second floor unit with same SSID and security as the first floor unit (use a different wireless channel that doesn't overlap with the first floor's)

As long as both devices are truly layer-2 connected that's all needed.
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AlexLite
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Re: extending network range

Thu Feb 18, 2016 8:26 am

ah, cool, thanks for this. didn t imagine it would be that simple.

but i assume in the described scenario i d have 2 routers dishing out ips and so on? is there some bridge setting that i need somewhere?

so i would need another hap device then, worth waiting for hap ac (non lite) ? would there be any other current hardware that i could choose, like those dishes that just do wireless they put in hotels or something?

thanks again
 
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Re: extending network range

Thu Feb 18, 2016 2:52 pm

Second device you can make it bridge so the only dhcp server will be on first, and you will have the same subnet in your LAN . Also set up same ssid with same encription on both but different channels, for roaming clients.
 
AlexLite
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Re: extending network range

Thu Feb 18, 2016 3:07 pm

thanks guys.

and hardware wise what do you think, go with another hap ac lite, or get something better to replace it as the first device, or maybe with one of the hot spot/access point offerings like cAP-2n, or maybe a RB951G-2HnD ... so many choices....
 
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Thu Feb 18, 2016 3:46 pm

All depends of what do u need. More bandwidth... Go to ac. If not 951g or 2011 series arevery powerful device for home use.

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Re: extending network range

Thu Feb 18, 2016 4:31 pm

As kiaunel pointed out no need for a second DHCP, just plug the second floor device on a port on the same bridge (or master port) where the DHCP server runs on the first floor device.

RB951G or 951Ui are amongst my favourite APs, and any of them will probably provide coverage for both stories.

They're specially good with mobile devices.

Your pick:

951Ui version can both be powered by POE, and power another device (PoE out)
951G can be powered by PoE, but no PoE out; it has 5 gigabit ports however.

If following this route, I'd leave the Hap ac on the floor you need more bandwidth (next to your home office).

Regardoing 951 placement, it will probably work equally good on any of the stories. I'd disable the 2.4Ghz portion in the Hap if you position both on the same story and leave just the 951 for 2.4GHz coverage.
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AlexLite
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Re: extending network range

Thu Feb 18, 2016 5:06 pm

thanks guys for the info

due to apparently some huge amount of metal in the iron slab between floors, signal is highly degraded, so i probably won t ever get away with just one router.

thinking about it my connection from the isp is 200mbps through pppoe, so i would need a gigabit variant anyway in order to benefit of any increase of above 100mbps, as the first device in chain

that would pretty much mean either a hap ac or 951G as the first device and moving the ac lite as the extender...
shame about the lack of poe out, i could of powered the ac lite over poe and changed it s location to somewhere where i don t have power..
 
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Re: extending network range

Sun Feb 28, 2016 1:35 pm

Then the Hap ac is for you :D it has Poe-Out, and can be seen as the next-gen 951 in terms of "Workhorse AP" in Mikrotik AP lineup.

They were used in Europe MUM (Ljubljana) last week to provide WiFi on the conference hall, and they didn't miss a beat with 100-150 average registered stations.

It is already on most distributors, was released about 1 week ago.
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Re: extending network range

Sun Feb 28, 2016 4:19 pm

thanks guys for the info

due to apparently some huge amount of metal in the iron slab between floors, signal is highly degraded, so i probably won t ever get away with just one router.

thinking about it my connection from the isp is 200mbps through pppoe, so i would need a gigabit variant anyway in order to benefit of any increase of above 100mbps, as the first device in chain

that would pretty much mean either a hap ac or 951G as the first device and moving the ac lite as the extender...
shame about the lack of poe out, i could of powered the ac lite over poe and changed it s location to somewhere where i don t have power..
I would use a different SSID for each floor for the reason listed below,

Another consideration which could happen is where a client is registered on one floor moves to floor above but still remains registered to floor below and have a poor wireless service due to the weak signal,

I would ask for help with a script that would check registered clients signal level (maybe sample duration of 10/30 seconds (?) ) and disconnect those below a threshold level, hopefully this action will result in clients registering to the strongest signal?

Or you could simply manually switch between the different SSID's,
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AlexLite
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Re: extending network range

Mon Feb 29, 2016 10:56 am

that s a very interesting idea with the script...
if it s just two ssids, i have seen that phones/tablets like to cling onto the first they connected, even though there is a better AP around, so two separate aps won t really work without manual connection (which is a pain)

but the script thing is really interesting...worth a think
 
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Re: extending network range

Mon Feb 29, 2016 12:47 pm

In a home scenario two SSIDs aren't a big deal, and could ease seeing to which AP a given device is connected.

However if signal difference is so obvious between floors, a single SSID, different channels on each floor and adjusting tx-power should be enough to "make it more obvious" for stations to switch to each AP, while additionaly having a more optimized setup.

If needed, to instruct each ap a minimum signal level from which stations are kicked otherwise, there's no need for scripts, see Wireless > Access List http://wiki.mikrotik.com/wiki/Manual:In ... ccess_List
Last edited by pukkita on Mon Feb 29, 2016 2:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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AlexLite
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Re: extending network range

Mon Feb 29, 2016 2:05 pm

very cool, thank you very much

now need to get a second device and have a play :D
 
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Re: extending network range

Mon Feb 29, 2016 3:30 pm

In a home scenario two SSIDs aren't a big deal, and could ease seeing to which AP a given device is connected.

However if signal difference is so obvious between floors, a single SSID, different channels on each floor and adjusting tx-power should be enough to "make it more obvious" for stations to switch to each AP, while additionaly having a more optimized setup.

If needed, to instruct each ap a minimum signal level from which stations are kicked otherwise, there's no need for scripts, see Wireless > Access List http://wiki.mikrotik.com/wiki/Manual:In ... ccess_List
In a home environment manually adding each wireless device to the access list and setting min signal level on each wireless AP may not be a big issue, I don't think access list will work in a commercial environment with new devices registering daily,
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Re: extending network range

Tue Mar 01, 2016 12:54 pm

There's no need to add every device to the access list. In fact this is a "technique" I constantly deploy on multi-AP hotspot commercial scenarios, or redundant sector-APs WISP towers.

What I suggested is accomplished by setting two access list rules, the first allowing any device with signal higher than say 60dBm, and the second denying any device with lower signal.

Access list works like firewall filter rules, i.e. on a first match fashion. Check the wiki entry I linked to, is explained there.
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Re: extending network range

Tue Mar 01, 2016 6:10 pm

thanks guys.

and hardware wise what do you think, go with another hap ac lite, or get something better to replace it as the first device, or maybe with one of the hot spot/access point offerings like cAP-2n, or maybe a RB951G-2HnD ... so many choices....
If this was my network I would definitely go with two of these

https://www.roc-noc.com/mikrotik/router ... nT-US.html

They are Gigabit. Have tripple chain AC and B/G/N. And Poe in and out.

I'm definitely geting one of those since my 751 is allready enough to cover my whole place with wery reliable signal.
 
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Re: extending network range

Wed Mar 02, 2016 5:21 am

thanks guys.

and hardware wise what do you think, go with another hap ac lite, or get something better to replace it as the first device, or maybe with one of the hot spot/access point offerings like cAP-2n, or maybe a RB951G-2HnD ... so many choices....

hap lite, hap and hap ac lite have a medium power and low sensitivity radios

if you need a 2.4ghz powerfull and sensitive enough radio for wifi on 2.4ghz go for rb951Ui

if you need dual band powerfull and sensitive radios maybe the hap AC (full version) is the way to go
 
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Re: extending network range

Wed Mar 02, 2016 10:15 am

thanks guys, so much information
i will purchase either a RB951G-2HnD or hap ac in the following weeks and report back how it all worked out

thanks again
 
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Re: extending network range

Thu Mar 24, 2016 7:13 pm

so in the end i got a RB951G-2HnD (didn t know it had a buzzer, that s cool :P)

set it up as main router, connecting to ISP, so far so good.

now i ve got the following two issues:
- i can t find a way to make it so i can connect on 40mhz channels, both chains are active, set 20/40 mhz channels, no go, I still only connect at 20mhz, 145mbps max

- i can t figure a way to make my hap ac lite be a "dumb client", so it only extends the network, no dhcp, no nat, no firewall needed, only extend what it gets from the the RB951G-2HnD on ethernet and wireless...
 
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Re: extending network range

Fri Mar 25, 2016 8:13 am

so, i might have sorted at least part of it, the bridge ( i hope). posting what i ve done, in case i ve done something wrong and somebody can steer me in the right direction

main router
- set as home ap
- set app IP/Services to be available from local network only 10.0.88.0/24
- set wireless/wlan/frequency to 2437 (not all channels appear here?)
- no country set

secondary router
- connected port 1 wlan to port 2 of main router
- set as WISP router
- set app IP/Services to be available from local network only 10.0.88.0/24 (although this is behind the first router)
- set wireless/wlan/frequency to 2442 (highest, not all channels appear here?)
- no country set

this seems to have given me a bridge, no nat or dhcp server on secondary router, etc, but it does seem to have two interfaces
- ether 1
- bridge
each with it s own ip. is this ok?

i still can t connect to 40mhz channels on the main router...

thank you guys again for all your support
 
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Re: extending network range

Fri Mar 25, 2016 11:23 am

Regarding 40MHz channels, you won't be able to connect unless spectrum is clear on contiguous 40MHz space, this is limited on the Atheros chipset itself and also some client drivers.

It is also not really useful, as on 2.4GHz spectrum there are only three non overlapping 20MHz channels (1,6,11):

Image

On your scenario you will be forced to put one AP in 40MHz mode (channel 1, which will use channel 6 as extension channel) and the other in 20MHz mode on channel 11.

Additionally, 40MHz are only used for burst mode transfers... so not worthy at all, even less having already 5GHz coverage much more suitable for 40MHz.

On how to make the Hap ac Lite a "dumb" client (use winbox):

- reset it to no defaults
- set ether1 as master port for ether2,3,4,5
- Create a bridge, add ether1 and wlan1
- configure wlan1
- Assign an ip to the bridge (only needed to manage it by ip, you can manage it without ip through mac-winbox or RoMON)

done.

Connect ether1 from the Hap ac Lite to any ether port belonging to the bridge where DHCP runs on the main Hap ac. You can use any ether port on the HAp ac Lite as all are bridged, but ether1 is usually directly connected to the CPU.

With this what you have built is basically a pure Layer 2 AP/switch, which "extends" your main Hap ac layer2 segment.
Last edited by pukkita on Mon Mar 28, 2016 11:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
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AlexLite
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Re: extending network range

Fri Mar 25, 2016 4:59 pm

@pukkita
thank you very much, I could not have done it without you.

after a lot of stumbling, and using the wine port of winbox Winbox4Mac (which for some reason likes to impose a specific configuration when it first connects) I think o have set it up as indicated by you. thanks again.

i still can t connect at 40mhz, but as people seem to think, that s no big loss, i can still do about 90Mbps over wifi from both levels now (it was 10-20mbps on the oposite floor of the router before) and i got to 280mbps on speedtest.net on a wired computer. very cool :D

on the hap ac lite i can connect over wifi, at many hundred mbps... not much good really because the ethernet is still 100mbps :P

now, is there somehwhere a list of other optimisations and cool things i could set on these little toys? :D

thanks again for everything
 
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Re: extending network range

Fri Mar 25, 2016 6:48 pm

If you have another free ether port on both Haps, you could run another cable between them and bond both interfaces, so that there's 200Mbps between both Haps.
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AlexLite
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Re: extending network range

Fri Mar 25, 2016 7:27 pm

hmm, they are a bit far and don t have another cable, can t run a new one either.
but 4 wires are unused... how bad would it be if i would split them into a double headed network cable monster ? :P

one s a hap, the other one is a RB951G-2HnD, the hap ac was too expensive for this

thanks again
alex
 
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Re: extending network range

Fri Mar 25, 2016 8:49 pm

Yep, that could be a solution, if the already layed out cable ends in wall sockets, you can crimp an Y adapter "pigtail" for each end. If not using wall sockets, you can use a female-female RJ-45 adapter at both ends in order to not screw the cable.
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Re: extending network range

Fri Mar 25, 2016 10:39 pm

hmm, they are a bit far and don t have another cable, can t run a new one either.
but 4 wires are unused... how bad would it be if i would split them into a double headed network cable monster ? :P
Just keep in mind that you would loose the PoE function, since power runs on the unused pairs 4/5 and 7/8.
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Re: extending network range

Fri Mar 25, 2016 10:44 pm

Ouch... missed that!

Docmarius is right, so if you're powering it by poe and want the added bandwidth, you'll need to resort to the power brick.

Decisions, decisions :D
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AlexLite
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Re: extending network range

Sat Mar 26, 2016 8:03 am

thanks guys, i ll be sure to try it, need a utp crimper :P

i wanted poe, but since the RB951G-2HnD doesn t have poe out, i can t use it :P so that s that sorted :D

it has been running nicely so far

wow, i jsut got this from the forum "Your message contains too many smilies. The maximum number of smilies allowed is 3." jeez /hahhahah smiley
 
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Re: extending network range

Sat Mar 26, 2016 1:10 pm

I have quite the same problem. I have 2 cables which we use for 2 conference halls. They ran into 1st hall, but unfortunately we took by 1 pair from each of them going in telephone system. What I want to do is to make more elegant the things. There are power cables which go into where the routers/AP are, but I want somehow from these 3 pairs coming from the cable to power 1st AP and then from it, to power 2nd AP which will be on the 2 room. I have full 4 pair FTP from there. 1st option is to have RouterBOARD 951Ui-2HnD with HAP. 2nd is 2 x hAP, but the question is how to power it from PoE Cisco switch I got in server room? And btw what does it mean on HAP passive PoE output?
 
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Re: extending network range

Sun Mar 27, 2016 3:46 pm

I wouldn't use the Cisco to power them.

Cisco PoE switch provides Active PoE (af/at) standard. Active PoE is not compatible with Passive PoE.

PoE af supports two modes, A mode use signal pairs to send power on 100BT devices; mode B use spare pairs on 100BT devices.

Image

Your cisco switch will surely support PoE af A mode (you'll have to check), so even having just 2 pairs, you could power a PoE af capable device in mode A.

However, mikrotik devices support "passive poe" standard, with only a handful SOHO APs additionally supporting af/at, wAP for example (which doesn't have POE Out), so in theory a single wAP could be powered from the Cisco switch by selecting A mode on the cisco using the layed out cables as they are.

Check http://wiki.mikrotik.com/index.php?titl ... lity_table as reference for Active Poe switches / RB supporting af/at compatibility (no cisco switches are listed there)

A Better Option
Using the cisco would limit your AP device choice, along with the possibility of daisy chain powering a second one, so a better option would be getting a RB951Ui as first AP, powering it by using a passive POE injector like RBPOE ($5, http://routerboard.com/RBPOE) at the network closet.

Image

You'll need to crimp a modified ethernet patch cord to use between RBPOE-Patch Pannel, as Passive PoE use pins 4,5 to send DC+, and pins 7,8 for DC- (see http://wiki.mikrotik.com/wiki/Manual:PoE-In)

Then from the 951Ui, you could power a Hap as AP2.

I wouldn't power anything else from the Hap, as you only have 1 pair to send power; both devices (RB951Ui+Hap) will have a max combined power consumption or 7+4W = 11W which at 24V makes about 500mA; for a single typical CAT5 24AWG wire, this is just the safe current limit.

How far from each other are the 2 conference halls?
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Re: extending network range

Wed Mar 30, 2016 10:00 am

They are glued.
 
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Re: extending network range

Wed Mar 30, 2016 5:02 pm

Glued?? You mean they're contiguous? how many sq meters are each? how many people may fit on each?

Depending on this, and site construction a single RB951Ui will provide enough coverage for both conference halls.
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