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blazej44800
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Feature request: CAPsManager - roaming

Sat Jun 21, 2014 3:32 pm

Good morning,

I'm really glad, that mikrotik made and released CAPsManager. But I think, CAPsManager should support Roaming between networks, something like it has UBNT and UniFi.
Please, add this in new versions. I think, I'm not alone, who want this.


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Re: Feature request: CAPsManager - roaming

Sun Jun 22, 2014 5:44 am

Do you mean as you move from one AP to another if they have the same SSID + Security (which CAPsMAN manages) then it should auto switch to the new AP?

Because this already happens.

And is usually more-so governed by the client device rather than the AP.

If you mean another type of roaming, please explain it more clearly.
 
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Re: Feature request: CAPsManager - roaming

Mon Jun 23, 2014 10:14 am

Do you mean as you move from one AP to another if they have the same SSID + Security (which CAPsMAN manages) then it should auto switch to the new AP?

Because this already happens.

And is usually more-so governed by the client device rather than the AP.

If you mean another type of roaming, please explain it more clearly.
Yep, that's already happening with almost any kind of APs available these days. However in this case a brief disconnect happens when client roams from one AP to another, which is a no-go for some applications like VoIP.

I believe blazej44800 asks for a so called seamless/zero-handoff roaming, in which case disconnects either do not happen at all, or (at least) are significantly shorter. It used to be only available in costly solutions (with ruckus being the most affordable among them), but now Ubiquity claims that starting from v3.1.x UniFi supports it as well.
 
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Re: Feature request: CAPsManager - roaming

Wed Jul 16, 2014 12:42 am

There is one more problem with "seamless" wi-fi.
If phone connects to ap1, then phone owner moves to ap2, but phone is still connected to ap1, with bad signal.
Ubiquty use centralized managment to drop clients from far away aps.
It would be nice if capsman could do the same thing.
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Re: Feature request: CAPsManager - roaming

Wed Jul 16, 2014 11:54 am

You already can disconnect client with bad signal but it will not ensure seamless roaming to next ap.
 
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Re: Feature request: CAPsManager - roaming

Wed Jul 16, 2014 12:10 pm

I understand the request and it is a good one, but just wanted to note, that you can already configure access list to disconnect client with bad signal, and the client will then reconnect to the nearest AP
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Re: Feature request: CAPsManager - roaming

Wed Jul 16, 2014 12:19 pm

The client will decide itself where to connect. And it will not be seamless. I experimented a bit with client disconnection in such cases and can tell that you can easily disconnect the client that does not have better connection option to choose. Mobiles are moving and even they are in good area they can have temporarily bad signal. To disconnect them in this case is really silly because a second after the signal is good again. So what now?
 
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Re: Feature request: CAPsManager - roaming

Thu Jul 17, 2014 1:52 am

Vote for this too.
Really like Mikrotik products and it's sad that ubnt already implemented some alternative solution while we don't have one.
But at least I hope it's starting to appear and developing CAPsMAN is a really good step.
 
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Re: Feature request: CAPsManager - roaming

Fri Jul 25, 2014 10:08 pm

I also please let me agree with this opinion.
I'm glad I also and will be able to build a roaming environment utilizing the capabilities of CAPsMAN.

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Re: Feature request: CAPsManager - roaming

Sat Aug 02, 2014 12:14 pm

Hi,
I vote for this too!

With regards,
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Re: Feature request: CAPsManager - roaming

Wed Aug 06, 2014 1:42 pm

Here need it too. CAPsMAN is a great feature but lacks of 802.11r or similar solution.
CAPsMAN+usermanager+ovpn+dhcp+server+hotspot are all-in-one machine great wifi controller that lacks "native" seamless roaming.
Last edited by juanvi on Wed Sep 24, 2014 11:44 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Feature request: CAPsManager - roaming

Sun Aug 17, 2014 12:51 am

Hello,

I think we don´t need to worrie about seamless/zero-handoff, ubnt controler did not had on first versions, soo i think its a question of time for capsMan to have it :)
 
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Re: Feature request: CAPsManager - roaming

Wed Sep 24, 2014 1:22 am

I understand the request and it is a good one, but just wanted to note, that you can already configure access list to disconnect client with bad signal, and the client will then reconnect to the nearest AP

That's not even close to the capability of a fully managed zero handoff roaming situation. Zero reauth, virtual bss per client moving from ap to ap.
 
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Re: Feature request: CAPsManager - roaming

Mon Oct 20, 2014 10:50 pm

The amount of misinformation out there is astonishing!

First of all - roaming is always a client decision; When to roam, what AP to roam to, what band (2.4 or 5) to prefer.
The process is simple:
- All APs broadcast a beacon with their SSID
- Client connected to AP A will occasionally do a scan for other APs
- Client hears the beacon (actually a probe response, but let's keep it simple), showing the same SSID as the one it is already connected on
- Client notices that the signal strength of AP B is better, and that the SNR on AP C is better.
- Client chooses to start a roam to AP C (because the client's algorithm is coded to prefer a good SNR instead of a higher RSSI - this is called preemtive roaming)
- Client sends a Disassociation request frame to AP A and an Association request frame to AP C. Both APs accept.
- Client (and sometimes AP C) sends a gratuitous ARP and sometimes a DHCP Renew packet via AP C to inform upstream switches of its new location on the wired LAN.

As you can see, at no point is any AP doing anything to make the client roam.


What OP is talking about is Meru's Single Channel Architecture, which was copied by Ubiquiti with Zero Handoff. In simple terms, the AP dynamically creates a virtual access point for each associated client. The infrastructure (Meru controller) then moves this virtual access point to different APs depending on where it (controller) wants the client to be associated with. Essentially, it is fooling the client into thinking that there is no other AP, and therefore never actually roams. SCA/ZH have their advantages and disadvantages, but nowadays client devices have improved their roaming algorithms so much that the disadvantages far outweigh the advantages. Even Meru is moving away from that architecture.

802.11r/11k are standardised protocols which have been created to assist in client roaming. Note the use of the word assist, as it is still a client decision. 11r simply avoids the long trip to the RADIUS server whenever there is 802.1x authentication involved while 11k tells the client about neighbour APs so the client does not have to waste a lot of time scanning the air for new APs.

VoIP works fine even today on any standard WLAN, as long as it is set up properly and you use good VoIP handsets.

To see an example of a really bad roamer you don't need to go very far. a MikroTik wlan interface in Station mode will not scan or roam until it completely loses connectivity from the AP. This is called reactive roaming and no 'real' WiFi clients (phones, tablets, laptops) behave this badly.

nb: I say badly but the reality is that MT is designed as a fixed location PTP/PTMP endpoint so should never roam
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Re: Feature request: CAPsManager - roaming

Thu Nov 20, 2014 11:32 am

First of all - roaming is always a client decision; When to roam, what AP to roam to, what band (2.4 or 5) to prefer.
FALSE
AP can kick a client if weak signal, max clients reached or member of load balancing group forcing roam.

nb: I say badly but the reality is that MT is designed as a fixed location PTP/PTMP endpoint so should never roam
FALSE
I have 44 radios (88 SSID's) connected to a single CCR1036 (capsman+usemanager) and i can have a perfect skype conversation between all SSID's roaming seamless in 2.4 and 5GHz.

I liked the term "reactive roaming" you have said before. I understand your concept and I'm sure there are better formulas to roam but mikrotik works very well and for a lot less money than any other solution .
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Re: Feature request: CAPsManager - roaming

Thu Nov 20, 2014 11:46 am

Ap can kick. But then client decides autonomly where to try to connect.
 
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Re: Feature request: CAPsManager - roaming

Thu Nov 20, 2014 11:50 am

First of all - roaming is always a client decision; When to roam, what AP to roam to, what band (2.4 or 5) to prefer.
FALSE
AP can kick a client if weak signal, max clients reached or member of load balancing group forcing roam.
And that is where the confusion begins. By kicking off the client (a deauth request), the AP is simply telling the client to disconnect from it. The client may decide to reconnect to the same AP or try another AP, based on it's association algorithms.

Careful using the term load-balancing. Most enterprise-grade vendors which have AP load balancing or band-balancing do their 'balancing' at the moment of association. Once a client is associated, LB/BB never kicks out forcefully as that will trigger an emergency/reactive roam.

Of course, since it's a client-driven process and there are no standards defined on the roaming algorithms, how quickly the emergency roam takes depends entirely on the clients.
nb: I say badly but the reality is that MT is designed as a fixed location PTP/PTMP endpoint so should never roam
FALSE
I have 44 radios (88 SSID's) connected to a single CCR1036 (capsman+usemanager) and i can have a perfect skype conversation between all SSID's roaming seamless in 2.4 and 5GHz.
Good for you, it just means your client devices are very good roamers.

Read my post again, I specify that using a MT device as a station results in poor roaming, because MikroTik is not designed to roam quickly and therefore has practically zero roaming processes. It simply waits until the signal is too low, disconnects, looks for new APs, and joins strongest signal.

Also, Skype is designed to work in the wild west internet, so has very good adaptive algorithms and would probably work well even if used over a MT in station mode. Try doing the same with SIP or an old console-based application or a MS Access database.
I liked the term "reactive roaming" you have said before. I understand your concept and I'm sure there are better formulas to roam but mikrotik works very well and for a lot less money than any other solution .
If it works well for your application, go for it. The point of this discussion is different. OP asked that "CAPsManager should support Roaming between networks" and a lot of misinformation ensued (including yours I'm afraid), so I wanted to set the record straight on how 802.11 WiFi works.
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Re: Feature request: CAPsManager - roaming

Thu Dec 04, 2014 2:37 pm

I'd be interested as well
 
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Re: Feature request: CAPsManager - roaming

Thu Dec 04, 2014 6:34 pm

Hi,

Controlling clients with access list prevents bad signal clients and low bandwidth.

The biggest difference with seamless roaming, multiple AP and unifi is the that clients see only 1 AP and 1 mac-address.
This prevent Apple device to constantly jump, register, disconnect over detected APs when in idle mode. This completely kills the bandwidth in a multi-AP environment...

Best Regards,
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Re: Feature request: CAPsManager - roaming

Thu Dec 04, 2014 8:11 pm

This prevent Apple device to constantly jump, register, disconnect over detected APs when in idle mode. This completely kills the bandwidth in a multi-AP environment...
Not really. Roaming is the way 802.11 is designed to work!. In fact, Apple devices tend to be the best behaved devices on a WiFi network and their roaming behaviour is well documented - http://support.apple.com/en-us/HT203068
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Re: Feature request: CAPsManager - roaming

Sat Dec 06, 2014 8:49 am

Other manufacturers provide possibility to set the roaming threshold unlike apple. It has one fixed level at -70dbm. But anyway, mikrotik should have implemented 802.11k and 802.11r long time ago... I wonder when we will have it.
 
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Re: Feature request: CAPsManager - roaming

Sat Dec 13, 2014 8:47 am

Disconnecting a client with a bad signal is not always the best solution: if the client moves closer to another AP then it may reconnect to the nearest one, but if the client moves far away from all APs, then he gets no service.

My two cents:
Maybe it could be made reliably with dedicated hardware: an AP composed by two radios, one normal and one that keeps scanning the frequencies and informs the CAPsMAN server about what each AP can sense, when CAPsMAN sees that a mac-address is received better on another managed AP, he can decide to try to disconnect/deauth the client from the previous AP.
 
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Re: Feature request: CAPsManager - roaming

Sat Dec 13, 2014 10:33 am

This doesn't say anything about the position of the client. Maybe not scanning but sniffing the traffic could be helpful.
 
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Re: Feature request: CAPsManager - roaming

Tue Oct 06, 2015 5:26 pm

 
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Re: Feature request: CAPsManager - roaming

Fri Nov 06, 2015 5:48 pm

Is there any new regarding the support of roaming in the way Ruckus do is (virtual ap in their terminology)?
 
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Re: Feature request: CAPsManager - roaming

Fri Apr 01, 2016 4:04 pm

the new wireless-rep package in 6.35rc has "Station Roaming support"

is working? if somebody has using, can we tell something about it?

how is the setup?

thanks
 
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Re: Feature request: CAPsManager - roaming

Fri Apr 01, 2016 11:23 pm

Pretty sure station roaming allows the MikroTik to roam when it is in station mode.... e.g. it does nothing if the mikrotik is acting as an access point.
 
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Re: Feature request: CAPsManager - roaming

Tue Apr 05, 2016 11:47 am

Pretty sure station roaming allows the MikroTik to roam when it is in station mode.... e.g. it does nothing if the mikrotik is acting as an access point.
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Re: Feature request: CAPsManager - roaming

Mon Jun 06, 2016 2:25 pm

Yes, I second the request to have a single channel/single-MAC architecture.
But we all should be aware that this technology will definitely need more horsepower hardware-wise to ensure all APs are sync.
Meru has dedicated ASICs in their APs, Extricom (with their Channel Blanket technology) have the processing power in their controllers.
I'm dealing with huge Extricom and Meru deployments almost every day and I must admit that I really love the way they work.
Especially when it comes to high density environments and multiplpe, non-interfering APs on the same channel with the same MAC address can communicate with multiple clients at multiple locations in the very same time slot - Extricom calls it "True Reuse" - I don't remember the Meru term for this.

To cut a long story short - all of us who want this feature should be 100% aware that we'll pay a lot more for the supporting hardware - especially when looking at the compeititors pricing...

Just my two cents,
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Re: Feature request: CAPsManager - roaming

Sat Jul 16, 2016 9:11 pm

I understand the request and it is a good one, but just wanted to note, that you can already configure access list to disconnect client with bad signal, and the client will then reconnect to the nearest AP
If you actually understand the request: why do you sugest using the braindead (drop the client in the cold) ACL approach. A real wifi controller verifies that another AP is actually hearing the client and reception is better, then it will try use appropriate protocols for moving client if it supports it otherwise disconnect but then you know that the client is actually in range of another AP instead of leaving it out in the cold with no service at all instead of a low connection. 
These standards have emerged from the different proprietary technics (It would be lovley if Mikrotik would support them:  802.11k, 802.11v, and 802.11r
 
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Re: Feature request: CAPsManager - roaming

Wed Sep 21, 2016 11:10 am

I agree,we need this.
 
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Re: Feature request: CAPsManager - roaming

Thu Sep 22, 2016 11:18 am

+1 from me. Currently we have to use other vendors wifi :(
 
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Re: Feature request: CAPsManager - roaming

Tue Nov 08, 2016 10:38 pm

+1
Очень актуальный вопрос!!!
Спрос имеется огромный
 
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Re: Feature request: CAPsManager - roaming

Wed Nov 09, 2016 12:33 am

+1

Controller based roaming would be fantastic
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Re: Feature request: CAPsManager - roaming

Wed Nov 09, 2016 11:41 am

So, are we there yet? People tend to deploy expensive "proprietary" solutions only because of roaming support. We have few deployments that really need this, and there are problems with forceful disconnects from signal strength based access list entries.
 
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Re: Feature request: CAPsManager - roaming

Fri Nov 11, 2016 1:23 am

+1

Please improve roaming.

Add actual standards 802.11r, 802.11k and 802.11v.. + controller based roaming would be great.+++

Please keep us informed in this issue ! Any comments from milkrotik ?! .. is it planed ? or is it no possible with current hardware ?
 
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Re: Feature request: CAPsManager - roaming

Thu Nov 17, 2016 9:49 pm

Oh, btw.

we need roaming.
 
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Re: Feature request: CAPsManager - roaming

Sat Nov 26, 2016 11:22 pm

It looks like Ubiquiti is developing 802.11rkv support for their unifi AC line. MikroTik should do the same to remain competitive.
 
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Re: Feature request: CAPsManager - roaming

Mon Jan 02, 2017 10:52 pm

Obviously someting was added in the latest 6.39 rc4 release...
 
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Re: Feature request: CAPsManager - roaming

Tue Jan 03, 2017 6:14 am

Obviously someting was added in the latest 6.39 rc4 release...
No, this is station roaming, for MikroTik stations only (not phones, laptops, etc.)
 
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Re: Feature request: CAPsManager - roaming

Tue Jan 03, 2017 9:20 am

Obviously someting was added in the latest 6.39 rc4 release...
No, this is station roaming, for MikroTik stations only (not phones, laptops, etc.)
I got all excited there for a second :(
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Re: Feature request: CAPsManager - roaming

Wed Jan 04, 2017 12:10 pm

+1
I would love 802.11r/k/v support.
 
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Re: Feature request: CAPsManager - roaming

Wed Jan 04, 2017 9:22 pm

I understand this topic is roaming, but I also get asked a lot about band steering on Capsman ? This would also be a nice feature to have ?


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Re: Feature request: CAPsManager - roaming

Wed Jan 04, 2017 9:46 pm

Oh yes. I'm sure, everybody would love to have band steering.
Bu as there's no 802.11x standard for Band steering, I'm afraid it won't be implemented in CAPsMAN or w/l.
Every manufacturer implements it their own way and makes a big myth and secret around it.
For my perception a good start would be adjustable beacon rates per interface.
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Re: Feature request: CAPsManager - roaming

Thu Feb 02, 2017 2:52 pm

Definitely 802.11r/k support is required for TRUE seamless wireless roaming. And nowadays MikroTik, beeing my favorite hardware solution, gives up its positions because it lacks these software features. No business will choose solution without true roaming support for the office with VoIP...
 
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Re: Feature request: CAPsManager - roaming

Sun Feb 19, 2017 8:54 pm

I olso need this future.
I have an RDP application witch must work without disconect when client moves between access points.
At this point, I must buy Ubiquity.
 
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Re: Feature request: CAPsManager - roaming

Wed Apr 05, 2017 12:04 am

+1

Capsman is very useful to manage access points but it could do a bit more than configuration only.

802.11r,k,v is mandatory nowadays. Modern very widely available WIFI clients like Iphones and Samsung Galaxy phones (since S4) are compatible since years.

http://www.cisco.com/c/en/us/td/docs/wi ... guide.html

As well as entry level WIFI Access points available now with 802.11r support. For example Linksys RE7000 or Cisco WAP371.

http://www.linksys.com/us/support-artic ... Num=200528

http://www.cisco.com/c/en/us/products/w ... index.html

Compatibility list for Apple products :

https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT202628

I've seen inside 6.39 rc compatibility with background channel scan for Mikrotik station clients. This is a first step, but 802.11r,k,v should now be implemented in Capsmanager so that APs and Capsman can help compatible clients to roam optimally.

Is there a hardware compatibility problem, or a license problem to implement this ?
 
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Re: Feature request: CAPsManager - roaming

Wed Apr 05, 2017 2:48 pm

Some interesting technical details and roaming tests with a 802.11r setup :

http://revolutionwifi.blogspot.fr/2013/ ... ve-wi.html


Another big player in the computer world, if not the biggest one, support fast roaming (Microsoft Windows 10) :

https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/window ... nd-802-11r

And here an introduction to fast roaming protocols, 802.11r, 802.11k, 802.11v and what they do :

https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/window ... nd-802-11r

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802.11k (Neighbor Reports)

Wireless Access Points (APs) that support 802.11k are able to provide Neighbor Reports to devices running Windows 10. Neighbor Reports contain information about neighboring access points and allows the device to have a better understanding of its surroundings. Windows 10 takes advantage of this capability by shortening the list of channels that the device needs to scan before finding a neighboring AP to roam to.

802.11v (BSS Transition Management Frames)

APs that support 802.11v can now direct Windows 10 devices to roam to another AP that it deems will provide a better WLAN experience for the device. Windows 10 devices can now accept and respond to these Basic Service Set (BSS) Transition Management frames, leading to improved WLAN quality when connected to a network that supports 802.11v.

802.11r (Fast BSS Transition)

Fast BSS Transition reduces the time needed for a Windows 10 device to transition to an AP that supports 802.11r. This time reduction results from fewer frames being exchanged with the AP prior to data transfer. By decreasing the time before data transfer when the device roams from one AP to another, the connection quality is improved for latency sensitive applications, such as an active Skype call. Windows 10 supports Fast BSS Transitions over networks using 802.1X as the authentication method. Pre-Shared Key (PSK) and Open Networks are currently not supported.

With the combination of 802.11k, 802.11v, and 802.11r, Windows 10 takes advantage of established industry standards to improve the roaming experience for our users. VoIP applications can now take advantage of this improved roaming to deliver better call quality when users are not stationary.

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jo2jo
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Re: Feature request: CAPsManager - roaming

Mon Apr 10, 2017 8:18 am

+1 - i think the prior posts (esp. the last 2 posts) make very clear how important this feature set has become now (802.11k and 802.11r ), and it def should be at or near the top of mikrotik's ROS list.

if it is/isnt, i really think we should at a min. get a offical reply from MT on the features timeline (or lack of), if possible.

over the past year / 18mo. i had 2 x large projects where we have had to use (and learn) a mt competitors product wifi product line, just so that we could implement true roaming (such that UDP and voip traffic can roam, was the job requirement at both sites, one was 70+ APs the other ~ 40 APs). We love (and always) use MT / ROS products, so this was not a direction we were happy to go in- but had no choice.

pls MT implement roaming (and also the ability to set the Beacon Interval in SSID broadcasts)

(or at a min. pls let us know your intentions on this feature)
thanks!
:beep :beep :beep
 
kiler129
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Re: Feature request: CAPsManager - roaming

Sun May 14, 2017 1:56 am

Two or three years ago 802.11k/v/r weren't really an must-have thing, they were nice but in reality most of devices were unable to properly use them. It's middle of the 2017 - now it's a must for any new deployments :(

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