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WirelessRudy
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Mikrotik and Environment.

Fri Apr 13, 2018 1:40 pm

Not a technical topic this time. More about the product line and where Mikrotik stands in relation to our mother nature.
Because yes, also we users and producers of Mikrotik should look on how we can do better for our environment!

Two items in particular are prone for a huge improvement towards our living environment and it could even save us all money!


1. The amount of plastic in packages for new devices is ridiculous. Power adapter in plastic, the plastic Ty-rap in plastic, the metal clamp in foam (=plastic), a foam sheet on top of each devices, plastic bags for the small screws, that include small plastic plugs and/or other stuff most of us never use.

Most of this plastic is not needed. And after un-packing it ends up as waste and we all know plastic waste in 90% of the cases stays around harming our lands and Oceans for many decades to come.
We/Mikrotik can do better!

2. Most (if not all?) new devices come with adapter and power shot cable. Why? Probably 75% of sold devices are bought by users (special de outdoor stuff) to replace older stuff. Often existing poweradapter and powershots can still be used. Also, many wireless operators work with PoE power supplied from PoE routers or switches so the adapters and powershots are not needed at all...
This creates a huge surplus of these devices. There is no need!

I have only a 800 device network but we have probably the same amount of power adapters and powershots brand new lying waiting in a box to get binned one day! How idiot is that? And last year we already gave 2 boxes full of power cables and power adapters to the waste company.
There are so much of these cables, adapters and powershots around it doesn't even make worth the effort to try to sell them! There is no market!
And every time we replace a CPE or AP by a newer, better model, we yet again get a useless adapter and powershot. WE DO'N'T NEED THEM!

Basically; Together with the inevitable carton boxes etc. each time we buy Mikrotik stuff we buy 25-50% waste! THIS IS RIDICULOUS!!!!


So Mikrotik, PLEASE revise your production lines and see if things can't be changed! Humanity is drowning in its plastic production and pollution so everywhere we should try to do the best to reduce our harmful footprint to the planet we all live on!


Omit the power adapters and powershots from the standard packing. Probably the majority of users don't need them. And those that do, can purchase them from others that have huge surpluses. And off course, if a user still needs these new, they can still be ordered from suppliers.........

In omitting the power adapters the packages can become smaller and lighter. Less transport fees and again good for the environment (less weight to transport, less volume needed) and the price from the package can be reduced a little bit too! This could benefit either the Mikrotik company and/or the customer.

I'd really hope many of Mikrotik users will underwrite or support this plead!
And I hope the Mikrotik management will seriously take a look on this issue!


Let Mikrotik become one of the first company that has the Environment friendly approach as sales point too! This will proof good publicity in the future!
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Rudy R. Puister

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Re: Mikrotik and Environment.

Fri Apr 13, 2018 2:03 pm

You realise though this massive push against plastic will mean that cardboard and/or paper will be used instead. Once that happens all the tree huggers currently spitting feathers over plastic will start complaining about the amount of trees being cut down because of the use of cardboard and paper in our packaging? The solution will be a man made packaging that is easy to make and cheap. Vicious circle I'm afraid.
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WirelessRudy
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Re: Mikrotik and Environment.

Fri Apr 13, 2018 2:47 pm

You realise though this massive push against plastic will mean that cardboard and/or paper will be used instead. Once that happens all the tree huggers currently spitting feathers over plastic will start complaining about the amount of trees being cut down because of the use of cardboard and paper in our packaging? The solution will be a man made packaging that is easy to make and cheap. Vicious circle I'm afraid.
As I already stated, most of the plastic is not needed at all? Many items can go in one plastic bag or a small carton box.
Secondly, carton is usually and in several countries, and if not, can be produced our of recycled paper.
Thirdly, plastic still has a much higher impact on the environment then the use of carton/paper. Plastic is usually made out of oil and stays around for sometimes hundreds of year to come.
Paper/carton can be made from recycled paper and if trees are needed, most come from production forests where the trees are grown for the paper mills.
There is very little paper on this planet coming from 'real' forests.
Paper that is not treated for whitening or coloring is very small threat to the environment compared to plastic. And like I said, in most cases even the paper amount can be reduced or taken from recycling.

Some countries in the North of Europe like Holland, Sweden, Germany, Denmark show that the amount of paper used for packaging can be come from up to 98% of recycled paper or wood from special production forests... And plastic can be replaced in many, many instances. So the 'tree huggers' will be pleased by this plea since they in the end support a cleaner environment.
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Re: Mikrotik and Environment.

Fri Apr 13, 2018 3:47 pm

In omitting the power adapters the packages can become smaller and lighter. Less transport fees and again good for the environment (less weight to transport, less volume needed) and the price from the package can be reduced a little bit too! This could benefit either the Mikrotik company and/or the customer.
Maybe. But if people want complete package (and I'm sure many do), you can't just tell them to go get power adapters from somewhere else. Creating two different packages (device only / device with all accessories) doesn't sound like very good for logistics. And if you split current package in two (device only + accessory package), the combined price will most likely be higher than for current all-in-one package.
 
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Re: Mikrotik and Environment.

Fri Apr 13, 2018 4:31 pm

In the UK there were various government and non-government initiatives (usually in the form of grants to businesses) to reduce material waste, resource usage in manufacturing, etc. I would not be surprised if the PR team at MikroTik has thought about "Corporate Social Responsibility". It's a good story to tell in the news: "$manufacturer has audited and "greened" their supply chain" or "$manufacturer has used a grant from $carbon_trust to retool their production line to make less plastic waste".

MikroTik devices have a good reputation for power efficiency. I agree with the OP — efficiency could be the next step ;-)
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Re: Mikrotik and Environment.

Fri Apr 13, 2018 4:39 pm

In omitting the power adapters the packages can become smaller and lighter. Less transport fees and again good for the environment (less weight to transport, less volume needed) and the price from the package can be reduced a little bit too! This could benefit either the Mikrotik company and/or the customer.
Maybe. But if people want complete package (and I'm sure many do), you can't just tell them to go get power adapters from somewhere else. Creating two different packages (device only / device with all accessories) doesn't sound like very good for logistics. And if you split current package in two (device only + accessory package), the combined price will most likely be higher than for current all-in-one package.
Don't agree on that.
First, in the early years accessoires like poweradapter and powershots where usually not included and I know some supplier of Wifi antenna still sell them separate.
Secondly, it would be interesting to have a poll but I think more then half the market for Mikrotik product are replacement units. In most countries Wifi market is pretty much consumed so all it needs now is keeping up with the best devices money can buy to replace older stuff. For this all the supplied power adapter and powershot are not needed.

And if the splitting of packages is too much effort (pffff, we can fly to the moon but thinking of smarter package is too much hassle??) just take the power adapter and power shot and all the ridiculous plastic bags out....

Just on the web shop have the option "poweradapter + powershot + plastic waste included" or not..... No need to change the package, no need to change anything. Just ask the manufacturer in China to leave 50% of the boxes leaving the factory empty on these and stamp them with "Green product."
Don't even need to change the prices. But because shipping goes by weight and volume the first saver is already in the weight. So Mikrotik saves on shipping costs!

We get the product that we need and not all the un-necessary stuff that comes with it.


I know, we all have the habit to see new products in plastic and manufacturers wrap them up in many layers of protective materials. But why? This is not a food product or other delicate stuff that need several layers of wrapping? It's just that it 'looks' new and better. But that's only gimmic....
It's all a matter of consciences about what we actually do and a change of culture and habits. How difficult is that?

At least I hope this will indeed wake some up. Things can always be done better... and I am sure in years time we all look back and think; "what a mess did we make those decades ago...."
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Re: Mikrotik and Environment.

Fri Apr 13, 2018 4:40 pm

Thank you for expressing your concern. We are already putting some effort into this, but I agree we can do much better.
We are already using unbleached, recycled cardboard for most of our product packaging. Most devices don't have shrink wrap on the boxes. There is very little amount of printed material inside. And yes, all our products are extremely low power consumption, especially if you compare the CCR series to more expensive competitor devices.

I have shared your concerns with packaging and kit-planning colleagues and we will try to choose the more environmentally friendly alternative, when given a choice.
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Re: Mikrotik and Environment.

Fri Apr 13, 2018 4:40 pm

Agree with the plastic removal. Screws can be punched directly into internal carton lid, for example. But the power adapters are a must. The device has to work out of the box and none can expect that it is replacing other already existing device with the same powering requirements that will be thrown into the trash.
If anyone wants to liquidate new power adapters or other accessories, I am willing to get them and use. Better to give them to me than sending them for recycling.
 
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Re: Mikrotik and Environment.

Fri Apr 13, 2018 6:16 pm

Agree with the plastic removal. Screws can be punched directly into internal carton lid, for example. But the power adapters are a must. The device has to work out of the box and none can expect that it is replacing other already existing device with the same powering requirements that will be thrown into the trash.
If anyone wants to liquidate new power adapters or other accessories, I am willing to get them and use. Better to give them to me than sending them for recycling.
Well, the two box option could be possible? One included, and one excluded the adapter and powershot. I'll bet many will already opt for the second option...

Like I said, I have a very typical small wisp that has very similar characteristics as many hundreds of others around the world. If I have received some 300% of power adapters compared to my client base over the years I am not exaggerating. Send me a pm and pay me the transport and I can send you now immediate some 2 or 300 hundred Mikrotik power supplies collecting dust in a box.
If my very typical network has such an incredible surplus then many other have the same..... There must be hundreds of thousands power supplies hanging around in the world that never done any work....

If Mikrotik would sell 100.000 devices per month, and 50% of these are for replacement only, then 80% of these won't need the power adapter and power shot. That is 40.000 power adapters with their powershot that have been manufactured, shipped around the world, shipped a second time to the buyers and then ultimately straight away end up in the waste bin or dump! EACH MONTH!!!
Nobody can actually defend that any longer.

It's senseless waste of resources, senseless transport costs ans senseless pollution as a result. International shipping is one of the main CO2 producers and air polluters. 10-20% of all materials shipped around the world is package materials. We are talking millions of tons of materials which are produced and transported to no other meaning than to end up in waste dumps or just litter our environment......

And it's not only Mikrotik, our society is doing it all the same in all corners. Other technology producers, in fact 99% of ALL producers of ALL goods do the same. That has to change! Mikrotik will not save the world, we as users won't save the world. But all little bits help and believe me, where for most products price and performance are the only factors of interest for most buyers, more and more people will start to look at the product's 'green footprint'.
If Mikrotik changes now little by little, they can use this to their (sale-)benefit. When in 10-20 years this is all the norm this benefit ain't there no more...

Good enough Normis already replied to this. Very good of him! :D
I seriously hope the message will be heard at the management level. And its not a matter of the choice being presented. Mikrotik orders and Mikrotik can depict in what form it comes!
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Re: Mikrotik and Environment.

Fri Apr 13, 2018 8:31 pm

2. Most (if not all?) new devices come with adapter and power shot cable. Why? Probably 75% of sold devices are bought by users (special de outdoor stuff) to replace older stuff. Often existing poweradapter and powershots can still be used.
There is probably an equal number of cases where a broken down device is replaced (router and power adapter), while in fact only the power adapter is at fault!
In today's consumer electronics, the switch-mode power adapters usually have the shorter lifetime of the entire set.
Of course you can use the opportunity of a defect to replace the router/ap with a more modern version.

Selling everything separately (router/ap, power adapter, power inserter) will likely increase the cost of the total set, and it incurs the risk that some unknowing buyer forgers to to order essential items (orders a router and is surprised it comes without power adapter). This causes unsatisfied customers.

Maybe it is possible to do packages of larger numbers of devices without accessories, so that you as a WiSP can order 100 APs, 100 mounting clips and no power adapters/inserters as you wish. But I don't think it is necessarily a good idea to do this for the single unit packaging.

And actually I think MikroTik does not so badly. Basic carton boxes, no color-printed outer box, no fat manual, and I have seen cables packaged much worse.
(e.g. VGA or DVI cables with a cap on the connector, a foam wrapping around the connector, and the whole thing in a plastic sleeve almost impossible to remove, or 1m UTP cables with two clips around them, then packaged invidually in a plastic bag)
 
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Re: Mikrotik and Environment.

Fri Apr 13, 2018 9:31 pm

Wirelessrudy, the pm function is inactive here. Can you provide other way to contact you?
 
WirelessRudy
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Re: Mikrotik and Environment.

Sat Apr 14, 2018 4:19 am

Wirelessrudy, the pm function is inactive here. Can you provide other way to contact you?
info@marucom.es
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Re: Mikrotik and Environment.

Mon Apr 16, 2018 5:35 pm

Email sent. Thanks in advance.

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