Hello Mikrotik

I do not believe I am the only one looking for an answer on this question. A simple yes we are working to resolve the issue would be nice. I have been very loyal Mikrotik user but I am losing customers over this speed issue in PTMP NV2. Don't want to switch to something else but if I can not even get acknowledgment of the problem from you then you are leaving me and hundreds of other loyal customers very little choice. We need a solution to the Multi Client speed issues with NV2. So would it be possible to get some information from you????????????????????????

Hello Mikrotik

I do not believe I am the only one looking for an answer on this question. A simple yes we are working to resolve the issue would be nice. I have been very loyal Mikrotik user but I am losing customers over this speed issue in PTMP NV2. Don't want to switch to something else but if I can not even get acknowledgment of the problem from you then you are leaving me and hundreds of other loyal customers very little choice. We need a solution to the Multi Client speed issues with NV2. So would it be possible to get some information from you????????????????????????

I have around 1-thousand clients connected to many APs using NV2 in a multi-point environments.
I also have dozens of wds multi-point back-haul networks passing hundreds of vlans and thousands of mac addresses.

NV2 works well. However I do wish there were some new additional enhanced tuning options for NV2 to better favor more traffic from the AP to the clients at some expense of clients sending to the AP.

NV2 work very well - you just have to dial-in the settings.

North Idaho Tom Jones

rheostat

Mabey I can help - but I have some questions please

- What type of Mikrotik hardware are you using for the Multipoint AP (antenna - RB type - wlan card - mino - ec-ce-eeec-ceee-A/N/AC ?
- What is the Ethernet link speed on your AP
- What is the average wireless client link speed (up and down)
-What is the averate wireless client CCQ
- What is the average SNR for your clients on the AP (when checking on the AP)
- What is the average SNR your clients devices (when checking on your clients)
- What frequency are your using ?
- When you disable the wlan on the AP and perform a frequency usage, is there any frequency above and/or below the frequency you are using? If so - can you provide a snapshot of your AP frequency usage (using winbox).
- What is your NV2 cell radius
- What is your channel-width
- What is your band
- What is your Hw-Retries set for ?
- What is your TX power set for ?
- What is the CPU clock speed of your AP ?
- How many characters are in your SSID ?
- How many characters are in your NV2 key ?
- What wireless package are you using on the AP and on the clients ?
- What version of ROS are you using on the AP and on the clients ?

I literally set up multi-point NV2 links all of the time in a dozen locations here in North Idaho.
If you can provide the answers to these questions - I can come back with some really good things to check.

North Idaho Tom Jones

Mikrotik doesn't believe in WISP market, wireless development is arrest and I don't see any resource inside mikrotik to improve wireless communications.
They took other roads, unfortunately...I loved mikrotik.

You want grow? Change tecnology and prepare to spend more money.

Mikrotik doesn't believe in WISP market, wireless development is arrest and I don't see any resource inside mikrotik to improve wireless communications.
They took other roads, unfortunately...I loved mikrotik.

You want grow? Change tecnology and prepare to spend more money.

As a larger WISP, I am inclined to disagree with your statements.
My Mikrotiks are by far out performing two other WISPs who use another brand - by more than triple the speed and double the long-range customers.
I have zero plans to look at any other products in the 5 GHz band - none. I and my customers are very pleased and happy with my large Mikrotik networks.
25 meg speeds to many long-range distant customers (at the same time) on the same multi-point AP works - it works great !

North Idaho Tom Jones
Red-Spectrum Communications

I have to agree. My offices with 10~20km links running at 25~50mpbs are amazingly stable. No plans at all to move away from MikroTik.

Mikrotik doesn't believe in WISP market, wireless development is arrest and I don't see any resource inside mikrotik to improve wireless communications.
They took other roads, unfortunately...I loved mikrotik.

You want grow? Change tecnology and prepare to spend more money.

As a larger WISP, I am inclined to disagree with your statements.
My Mikrotiks are by far out performing two other WISPs who use another brand - by more than triple the speed and double the long-range customers.
I have zero plans to look at any other products in the 5 GHz band - none. I and my customers are very pleased and happy with my large Mikrotik networks.
25 meg speeds to many long-range distant customers (at the same time) on the same multi-point AP works - it works great !

North Idaho Tom Jones
Red-Spectrum Communications

Can you share your PTMP wireless settings.

rheostat

Mabey I can help - but I have some questions please

..................................................................
-

- What is your TX power set for ?
- What is the CPU clock speed of your AP ?
- How many characters are in your SSID ?
- How many characters are in your NV2 key ?
- What wireless package are you using on the AP and on the clients ?
..........................................................................................................................

North Idaho Tom Jones

Interesting ???
Have you noticed a performance improvement when adjusting TX Power parameters, CPU Clock speed and the numbers of characters used in SSID and NV2 key + wireless package used.

Mikrotik doesn't believe in WISP market, wireless development is arrest and I don't see any resource inside mikrotik to improve wireless communications.
They took other roads, unfortunately...I loved mikrotik.

You want grow? Change tecnology and prepare to spend more money.

As a larger WISP, I am inclined to disagree with your statements.
My Mikrotiks are by far out performing two other WISPs who use another brand - by more than triple the speed and double the long-range customers.
I have zero plans to look at any other products in the 5 GHz band - none. I and my customers are very pleased and happy with my large Mikrotik networks.
25 meg speeds to many long-range distant customers (at the same time) on the same multi-point AP works - it works great !

North Idaho Tom Jones
Red-Spectrum Communications

Can you share your PTMP wireless settings.

Yes I can


On my many many many APs, I do the following:
- Use the same SSID
- Use the Radio name to describe my AP (example 192-168.56.22-Tower1) where the 192-168.56.22 part is the IP address. Also I use the wireless radio name in my Identity. This makes it very easy to know what you are connecting to using a client Mikrotik device - or to quickly identify the IP address in neighbors.
- NV2 for Wireless Protocol
- NV2 key - - - I use only a few characters. I use the same NV2 key on all APs. I am not sure - but I suspect a small key might help reduce some stuff in the packets ?
- NV2 TDMA Period Size (on the AP), I use 2ms on all APs. Any other setting ends up making things run slower.
- NV2 TDMA Security is checked
- NV2 Cell Raidius , I try to use 10 --- or a value of the most distant customer + 5
- Wireless Protocol (NV2)
- Wireless Security Profile - default (I don't think this does anything when using NV2)
- Wireless BAND - never use mixed if possible !!! If all clients are N then set it to N-only.
- Wireless Channel Width - On my N only networks, I use 20/40MHz Ce
- Advanced - Hw Retries - I use 3 (for NV2 networks, every other setting appears to slow things down) (I use this setting on APs and on clients)
- NSTREAM - uncheck everything and only check "Disable DSMA" ( Don't ask what this does - but I do know what it does !!! )
- TX power - default
- I no longer use A type networks - almost everything is now N (single polarity ( 1x1 ) - with horizontal polarity antennas on everything)
- All APs have high-gain horizontal polarity 90-degree sector antennas
- For N wireless NV2 networks - The very very best long-distance client device I have experienced is the Mikrotik Metal 5 connected to a 31 db super high gain directional grid antenna. This combination will connect where other products will not make workable connections. It also works through some trees OK

*EDIT* Note - a client Mikrotik Metal 5 with a Poynting 31-dBi grid antenna will give you the ability to make 20+ mile connections (and much further) with a 150/150 meg connection rate. It will also be your best 5 Ghz possible solution to make it through trees. The Mikrotik Metal 5 has the best transmit power and receive sensitivity of all products I have ever tested in the 5Ghz band.

- Mikrotik routeboard overclocking - On your APs - overclock them.
- Ethernet to APs - this is important !!! - Use Gig Ethernet connections (not 10/100). A good NV2 N Ce connection can out-run a 100 meg Ethernet connection.

My network for all regular client customers is 5 GHz N Ce 1x1 (not mimo or AC). This gives me more frequency space on a tower for other sector AP.
On my towers - I try to use a minimum of 8 (eight) sector APs (90-degree) around a tower. This way if an AP fails, then my customers will auto connect to the next AP on the same tower.
My APs never have more than a single wlan card installed
On all APs, I run three ehternet cables for redundancy
POE - try NOT to use APs with a single Ethernet cable. I use the POE Ethernet cable only for power - and then have two other 1-gig connected Ethernet cables for spanning-tree redundancy

On backhauls (point-to-point) I try to way overbuild the connection.
Backauls - I use 5 ghz AC eeeC or Ceee only - and no plastic antennas - only metal reflectors. (I have found that stuff like the DynaDish never works in a high-noise environment. The plastic dish reflector lets all kinds of noise in and out the sides - through the side of the plastic dish reflector to adjacent microwave equipment. A decent backhaul will always give you 400 meg or greater throughput.

Avoid over saturated AP. If you have to many customers on an AP then you need to add more APs.

Often perform frequency usage tests on your APs to look for better cleaner channels. What worked 3 months ago may not be working now.

ALSO - rate limit all clients !!! I generally limit customer up speed and 20 percent of their download speed.

one last thing - Do not permit poor connections on your network. You want to have all devices with a CCQ if possible at 80 or greater.

I hope this helps
If anybody else has some tips - please share them

North Idaho Tom Jones
(A WISP and fiber-to-the-home ISP)

rheostat

Mabey I can help - but I have some questions please

..................................................................
-

- What is your TX power set for ?
- What is the CPU clock speed of your AP ?
- How many characters are in your SSID ?
- How many characters are in your NV2 key ?
- What wireless package are you using on the AP and on the clients ?
..........................................................................................................................

North Idaho Tom Jones

Interesting ???
Have you noticed a performance improvement when adjusting TX Power parameters, CPU Clock speed and the numbers of characters used in SSID and NV2 key + wireless package used.

re your question - answer yes - take a look at my larger post below ...

North Idaho Tom Jones

additional info for what I use

If I have a tower with A clients and N cleints
-then-
I do the following

Add A only APs - and add N only APs
You want to keep the A clients off of your N APs
and you want to keep the N clients off of your A APs.

another last thought - if you are a WISP still using 802 wireless protocol and/or 2.4 GHz --- then you are screwed

Very Very important - use the Mikrotik wireless-rep package on everything (APs and clients) - this will help you network perform better/faster.

again - more thoughts to consider

this is about eC and Ce and Ceee and eeeC and eCee and eeCe frequency space

The center main frequency you set your AP to is the "C"

If you use something like Ceee or Ce , then you need to allow additional clear frequency space above/higher than your channel frequency.
If you use something like eeeC of Ec, then you need to allow clear frequency spance below/lower than your channel/frequency.

And if you use something like eeCe or eCee (which I don't recommend) then you need to allow additional frequency clear space both above and below your frequency.

I did know at one what time the e and the C stands for - but I remember this way... C is the center channel frequency and e is extra-additional channel frequency.

Note: If you are making a public AP for everybody to connect to with anything - consider wireless-rep package - 802 protocol - 2.4 ghz - and G/N-only with Ce. You want to do everything to avoid old B connections. A single B connection will put your 2.4 GHz AP into a B-Protect-Mode and everybody slows down to 12 meg or less. Also set your hw-retried to 15 - also set your On-Fail-Retry-Time to 1.00 - also set your Disconect Timeout to 00:00:15 -also set the Distance for dynamic (not indoors - even if it really is indoors).


North Idaho Tom Jones

Funny follow up ---
If any information I posted helps ...
You are welcome to help increase my current forum reputation of 38 to a higher number
North Idaho Tom Jones

The admins turned off the rep system a while ago

The admins turned off the rep system a while ago

O - I rather liked the reputation feature.
It help identify those who had posted good meaningful information that helped others.

North Idaho Tom Jones

The admins turned off the rep system a while ago

Wowa - I just now changed your reputation from 50 to a 53 - it works !

To add reputation points - I clicked on your icon/avatar image - then on the next page I clicked on reputation/rate-user - then clicked on +3

Ha! Wow! I never looked there! Some extra for you too for all the detail!

Ha! Wow! I never looked there!

me too, so rep+ to Tom

Anyway, nv2 key size never make packets bigger, only "more encrypted" (so more cpu? probably not)

Hardware retry default to 7 if I remember well, I usually set it lower for good links (keeping latency down) and higher for bad one (help reducing packet loss to gain little troughput); this seems to be in line with your recommendations - 3 for backhauls , 15 for public ap.

The dynamic/indoor statement has captured my attention, why do you say so? I've always left it untouched but recently I started to set indoor when indeed the AP is indoor (without noticing any effects to be honest)

Ha! Wow! I never looked there!

me too, so rep+ to Tom

Anyway, nv2 key size never make packets bigger, only "more encrypted" (so more cpu? probably not)

Hardware retry default to 7 if I remember well, I usually set it lower for good links (keeping latency down) and higher for bad one (help reducing packet loss to gain little troughput); this seems to be in line with your recommendations - 3 for backhauls , 15 for public ap.

The dynamic/indoor statement has captured my attention, why do you say so? I've always left it untouched but recently I started to set indoor when indeed the AP is indoor (without noticing any effects to be honest)

Re the indoor vs outdoor settings, I run several high-density public hot-spots. A few years ago I tested these settings on a saturated public access hot-spot and as a client among 40 other active connections to the AP , I achieved the greatest throughput at 200-to-300 feet away from the AP when the AP was set for dynamic. The same also holds true when heavily over subscribed to the point the network is erring out.

Hello Tom,

I have to ask: For your APs, are you using horizontal polarity only? If so, why?

- I no longer use A type networks - almost everything is now N (single polarity ( 1x1 ) - with horizontal polarity antennas on everything)
- All APs have high-gain horizontal polarity 90-degree sector antennas

I guees, crowded vertical reasons

HW retry settings is not used if you use NV2 protocol

Ha! Wow! I never looked there!

me too, so rep+ to Tom

Anyway, nv2 key size never make packets bigger, only "more encrypted" (so more cpu? probably not)

Hardware retry default to 7 if I remember well, I usually set it lower for good links (keeping latency down) and higher for bad one (help reducing packet loss to gain little troughput); this seems to be in line with your recommendations - 3 for backhauls , 15 for public ap.

The dynamic/indoor statement has captured my attention, why do you say so? I've always left it untouched but recently I started to set indoor when indeed the AP is indoor (without noticing any effects to be honest)

Hello Tom,

I have to ask: For your APs, are you using horizontal polarity only? If so, why?

- I no longer use A type networks - almost everything is now N (single polarity ( 1x1 ) - with horizontal polarity antennas on everything)
- All APs have high-gain horizontal polarity 90-degree sector antennas

About a dozen years ago I started out using horizontal polarity because there is generally less man-made noise/interference. An engineer person I know who designed military radar systems told me so... Also, with most APs using verticle polarity I have an automatic 3 to 15 db less noise because of verticle vs horizontal noise.
And yes I have also tested horizontal vs vertical polarity many times and horizontal wins out - espically in areas where there are other WISPS creating noise.

North Idaho Tom Jones

HW retry settings is not used if you use NV2 protocol

Ha! Wow! I never looked there!

me too, so rep+ to Tom

Anyway, nv2 key size never make packets bigger, only "more encrypted" (so more cpu? probably not)

Hardware retry default to 7 if I remember well, I usually set it lower for good links (keeping latency down) and higher for bad one (help reducing packet loss to gain little troughput); this seems to be in line with your recommendations - 3 for backhauls , 15 for public ap.

The dynamic/indoor statement has captured my attention, why do you say so? I've always left it untouched but recently I started to set indoor when indeed the AP is indoor (without noticing any effects to be honest)

re: HW retry settings is not used if you use NV2 protocol

My reply - O yes it most definitely is used and makes a major difference (when using nv2). I have verified with almost 1-thousand nv2 links - it does make a difference - big time ...

This thread talks on nv2 on 11n singlepol. To be honest this is not where we are heading to. We are in 2016 and try to get stable 100MBit. We do this with dualpol 11ac and with vdsl/vectoring. NV2 is still not capable doing this with ptmp.

This thread talks on nv2 on 11n singlepol. To be honest this is not where we are heading to. We are in 2016 and try to get stable 100MBit. We do this with dualpol 11ac and with vdsl/vectoring. NV2 is still not capable doing this with ptmp.

- NV2 N 1x1 (single polarity) is good for an easy 150meg/150meg rate connection

- I would like so see you figure out how to get a DSL connection to the middle of a field (aka clients that you do not have access to the telco copper lines - or no copper ) .

- VDSL has a limited distance reach. What are your going to do in you have 20 clients 10 miles away ?

- By using NV2 N 1x1, I can have almost twice the APs facing slightly different sectors than I can with 2x2 or AC.

- 100 Meg is easy to hit if needed with NV2. Can DSL/VDSL hit & sustain 400 meg ? - don't think so ...

- If you wanna talk about future pure throughput to customers, fiber-to-the-home is the only way to go.

- It is theoretically possible to pass the combined traffic from every DSL (including VDSL) connection in the world -and- the combined traffic from every microwave connection in the world, and pass that amount of traffic to/through any one of my fiber-to-the-home customers.

- Why would anybody build a new copper-to-the-home network for VDSL connections - bad expensive low throughput idea.

- Why would anybody build a new microwave-to-the-home network - because working solutions are low cost (Mikrotik with nv2).

- Why would anybody build a new fiber-to-the-home network (Like me) - because in the long run, it is the only solution that will never run out of throughput bandwidth.

- How many VDSL customers can you currently turn up at 80 gig or 40 gig - or 20 gig - or 10 gig - or 1-gig throughput - none. With FTTH, I have the ability to make every customer run that fast - and even faster as newer fiber devices come out.

I give high credits to every Mikrotik WISP here. We/they are doing pretty good - even if they do not have copper-to-the-home or FTTH plants.


I am lucky - I am a WISP and a FTTH ISP.

North Idaho Tom Jones

This thread talks on nv2 on 11n singlepol. To be honest this is not where we are heading to. We are in 2016 and try to get stable 100MBit. We do this with dualpol 11ac and with vdsl/vectoring. NV2 is still not capable doing this with ptmp.

- NV2 N 1x1 (single polarity) is good for an easy 150meg/150meg rate connection

This is 40MHz channel brutto datarate half duplex with good conditions. In my real world customers see way below this. There is 802.11ac and there is Mimo now which gives higher data rates with lower Spectrum usage.

- I would like so see you figure out how to get a DSL connection to the middle of a field (aka clients that you do not have access to the telco copper lines - or no copper ) .

There we use Wireless 802.11ac and deliver 100MBit/s.

- VDSL has a limited distance reach. What are your going to do in you have 20 clients 10 miles away ?

There we build a tower or a pole do a ptp hop and use short wireless or wired connections.

- By using NV2 N 1x1, I can have almost twice the APs facing slightly different sectors than I can with 2x2 or AC.

Using V and H singlepol gives some separation but you need twice the aps and you cant give high peak speeds to single clients. With 40MHz Channels we've a lot more interference problems than with 20MHz using dualpol.

- 100 Meg is easy to hit if needed with NV2. Can DSL/VDSL hit & sustain 400 meg ? - don't think so ...

This is not easy with NV2/PTMP. We see degrading performance with increasing number of CPEs. There are a lot of complaints here on the forum describing this effect.
We see CPE-Speed going down to 20-30MBit/s with >10 CPEs connected to a AP. We get much higher numbers with VDSL and with .ac products.

- If you wanna talk about future pure throughput to customers, fiber-to-the-home is the only way to go.

Agree. But this is not cost effective in many cases.

- It is theoretically possible to pass the combined traffic from every DSL (including VDSL) connection in the world -and- the combined traffic from every microwave connection in the world, and pass that amount of traffic to/through any one of my fiber-to-the-home customers.

There are limits at the backbone and how you build out the network. Most here do GPON as they want to save money. So Fiber is not fiber. It depends on the offering.

- Why would anybody build a new copper-to-the-home network for VDSL connections - bad expensive low throughput idea.

In my country every building has copper. So it is more cost effective to use it than to dig another cable.

- Why would anybody build a new microwave-to-the-home network - because working solutions are low cost (Mikrotik with nv2).

- Why would anybody build a new fiber-to-the-home network (Like me) - because in the long run, it is the only solution that will never run out of throughput bandwidth.

- How many VDSL customers can you currently turn up at 80 gig or 40 gig - or 20 gig - or 10 gig - or 1-gig throughput - none. With FTTH, I have the ability to make every customer run that
fast - and even faster as newer fiber devices come out.

The limit is not the fiber. It is the backhaul, the routers and the uplink. Just show me your 1000Gbps BGP Router where your fiber network is feeded with.
So giving 100MBps to customers is fine for the moment. This can be done with .ac and vdsl. Both will increase speed further in the future.

I give high credits to every Mikrotik WISP here. We/they are doing pretty good - even if they do not have copper-to-the-home or FTTH plants.

Yes. We've some hundred customers connected with Mikrotik. What we are missing at the moment is the evolution towards higher PTMP speeds.
NV2 does not scale enough to keep up with the traffic So we have to use other products. We waited a long time. Staying with singlepol 11n is no longer an option.

I am lucky - I am a WISP and a FTTH ISP.
North Idaho Tom Jones

ste - I give you high credits. You have a good intelligent come-back for every question/item I posed.

Bottom line - It comes down to the following things for any type of delivery system:

- Money (and return on investment)
- Engineering know-how
- What facilities and technologies you have access to for any given market location

Microwave, copper & fiber all have their strengths and weakness.

FYI - network engineers are allowed to disagree from time to time - that is how we learn. Heck, if all network engineers always agreed on everything - then we would be out of jobs and the Internet/networks would be run by high-school students.

Question - does anybody know of any public faster than 1-gig speed-test servers to test to ? A common problem is that after your network is faster than 1-gig, it becomes hard to locate gig+ speed-test servers. (FYI - My public 207.32.195.2 mikrotik btest server does support 3.2 gig bandwidth tests to/for everybody to test to).


North Idaho Tom Jones (with a 10-gig connection to my workstation PC computer I am currently typing on...)

My reply - O yes it most definitely is used and makes a major difference (when using nv2). I have verified with almost 1-thousand nv2 links - it does make a difference - big time ...

for the Nv2 protocol the hw-reties setting is ignored.
http://forum.mikrotik.com/viewtopic.php?t=48242#p245161

My reply - O yes it most definitely is used and makes a major difference (when using nv2). I have verified with almost 1-thousand nv2 links - it does make a difference - big time ...

for the Nv2 protocol the hw-reties setting is ignored.
http://forum.mikrotik.com/viewtopic.php?t=48242#p245161

You might be correct. I just did a quick test and I nolonger see a difference ...
I do not remember where I got the Hw-Retries 3 from or what wireless package I had tested it with. I do know it did used to make a difference on PTP and MTPT links at one time...


If you have the spare/free time - please do me a favor and try/test this on a multi-point system.
on a NV2 AP with a NV2 clients

1 - set your nv2 cell radius to 10 (if possible)
2 - on you nv2 AP - only have checked Disable CSMA
3 - on you nv2 AP - set your TDMA Period Size to 2ms
4 - Overclock both the AP and the client
5 - If possible - set the Band to ONLY ( example -- 5GHz-only-N )
6 - Use the wireless-rep package on both AP and Clients.
7 - on your nv2 AP & Client - btest your throughput using Hw Retries (on client ant AP) of Hw-Retries of 1 then 3 - then 15

Please let me know if you see any maximum speed differences from the AP to the client.