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LHG 60 project in Hawaii

Posted: Tue May 15, 2018 9:48 am
by normis
A customer from Hawaii has gotten his first LHG60 link up with good results. Here are some photos and test results:

1,470 Meter Link

TRAFFIC GENERATOR TEST SETUP:
LHGG60 in Bridge Mode (192.168.88.2) - - to - - LHGG60 in Station Bridge Mode (192.168.88.3)

MacBook Pro (192.168.88.10)
/tool traffic-generator packet-template
add ip-dst=192.168.88.2 ip-gateway=192.168.88.3 ip-src=192.168.88.10
name=test1 udp-dst-port=100-300
/tool traffic-generator stream
add mbps=2000 name=stream3 packet-size=1500 tx-template=test1
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31947541_10156245514707510_4002452561121509376_n.jpg

Re: LHG 60 project in Hawaii

Posted: Tue May 15, 2018 5:57 pm
by server8
Good results but in rainy days? The US version has the same power outpu of EU?

Re: LHG 60 project in Hawaii

Posted: Wed May 16, 2018 10:37 am
by antonsb
Good results but in rainy days? The US version has the same power outpu of EU?
Same power output.
In other forum threads there are results from rainy days as well. Rain adds some attenuation but if link is set up correctly there shouldn't be any issues in those distances.

Re: LHG 60 project in Hawaii

Posted: Wed May 16, 2018 1:10 pm
by server8
I read the orther thread and If i remember well the link drop during heavy rain at 1200m :-)

Re: LHG 60 project in Hawaii

Posted: Wed May 16, 2018 1:22 pm
by antonsb
I read the orther thread and If i remember well the link drop during heavy rain at 1200m :-)
That link drop was due to misalignment and multiple devices squeezed close together with self made solutions.
There are clever LED alignment option added to those devices that helps to find best position. Wiki will be updated soon.

Re: LHG 60 project in Hawaii

Posted: Wed May 16, 2018 1:31 pm
by doush
We need an XL version. Bigger antenna + better gain

Re: LHG 60 project in Hawaii

Posted: Wed May 16, 2018 1:32 pm
by server8
Antonsb I hope you are true ;-)

And I hope to see a version with integrated 5 Ghz backup

Re: LHG 60 project in Hawaii

Posted: Wed May 16, 2018 4:43 pm
by ste
I read the orther thread and If i remember well the link drop during heavy rain at 1200m :-)
That link drop was due to misalignment and multiple devices squeezed close together with self made solutions.
There are clever LED alignment option added to those devices that helps to find best position. Wiki will be updated soon.
This is much more than we see with ignitenet. What is the difference? More TX, higher gain or better sensivity? Or marketing ;-)

Re: LHG 60 project in Hawaii

Posted: Wed May 16, 2018 6:09 pm
by antonsb
I read the orther thread and If i remember well the link drop during heavy rain at 1200m :-)
That link drop was due to misalignment and multiple devices squeezed close together with self made solutions.
There are clever LED alignment option added to those devices that helps to find best position. Wiki will be updated soon.
This is much more than we see with ignitenet. What is the difference? More TX, higher gain or better sensivity? Or marketing ;-)
All of mentioned + beam forming antennas :)
Results from sunny day, but at least some useful insight:
Distance Speed(tx+rx)
1100m 1.8Gbps+
1200m 1.8Gbps+
1500m 1.8Gbps+
1600m 1.8Gbps+
1700m 1.8Gbps+
1800m 1.8Gbps
1900m 800Mbps+

Re: LHG 60 project in Hawaii

Posted: Wed May 16, 2018 6:25 pm
by sup5
Is there any chance to overcome 3000 meters?

Re: LHG 60 project in Hawaii

Posted: Wed May 16, 2018 10:54 pm
by Matess
we have custom made antennas on WAP and on 1km test link it has 4dBi less then LHG60 on the same link. 500m link still drops with heavy rain. 420m is rock solid.

Re: LHG 60 project in Hawaii

Posted: Thu May 17, 2018 10:02 am
by Matess
Does WAP has any kind of limitation? When I am using it on larger dsitances speed drops a lot and signal is still 80. Is there lower ACK or something?

Re: LHG 60 project in Hawaii

Posted: Thu May 17, 2018 10:06 am
by normis
wAP60 has a specially designed and calibrated beamforming antenna with pre-configured patterns. you can't use it with custom antennas and I am surprised it works for you at all.

Re: LHG 60 project in Hawaii

Posted: Thu May 17, 2018 10:33 am
by arjanwixx
Antonsb I hope you are true ;-)

And I hope to see a version with integrated 5 Ghz backup
+1 Can't be to diffilcult

Re: LHG 60 project in Hawaii

Posted: Thu May 17, 2018 10:42 am
by antonsb
we have custom made antennas on WAP and on 1km test link it has 4dBi less then LHG60 on the same link. 500m link still drops with heavy rain. 420m is rock solid.
Custom antennas will never work as well without proper calibration.

Re: LHG 60 project in Hawaii

Posted: Thu May 17, 2018 5:39 pm
by anav
Sweet pics, thanks for sharing.

Re: LHG 60 project in Hawaii

Posted: Thu May 17, 2018 7:58 pm
by sup5
Antonsb I hope you are true ;-)

And I hope to see a version with integrated 5 Ghz backup
+1 Can't be to diffilcult
Seems to be already prepared in WAP60G and LHG60G. Just missing the Amplifiers and Internal Antennas.

Re: LHG 60 project in Hawaii

Posted: Tue May 22, 2018 9:49 am
by server8
Any update in rainy days? Some print screen from wireless monitor 'll be appreciated :-)

Re: LHG 60 project in Hawaii

Posted: Tue May 22, 2018 10:32 am
by djdrastic
Awesome Normis !

If you could add a integrated 5 Ghz backup radio this would be amazesauce !

Re: LHG 60 project in Hawaii

Posted: Tue May 22, 2018 5:22 pm
by changeip
where can these be bought? I dont see anyone carrying them yet...

Re: LHG 60 project in Hawaii

Posted: Tue May 22, 2018 7:09 pm
by WirelessRudy
Very nice indeed. But suppliers in Europe still can't deliver them. "Mid June" is best answer I get......

Re: LHG 60 project in Hawaii

Posted: Tue May 22, 2018 7:26 pm
by WirelessRudy
Antonsb I hope you are true ;-)

And I hope to see a version with integrated 5 Ghz backup
And I hope they don't make the same mistake then as Ignitenet. Most of us will use 60Ghz to escape from the 5Ghz overloaded spectrum. But if the backup solution now is that it still needs to run this advantage is actually lost.
Maybe the advantage is there for the link itself, but in many cases in freeing 5Ghz on a link gives more 'spectral' space for our AP's and maybe other long distant links. If this new 60Ghz link now still has to run to maintain its capacity we haven't gained a lot in that respect.

So a 5Ghz backup should be a 'cold' backup. When 60Ghz goes down the 5Ghz radio's fire up and take over... Maybe at such specific moment we create poor conditions for other 5Ghz networks or links but this is only an emergency solution. Usually during a heavy rainstorm people are really more interested in what happens outside then what happens on the internet.....
As soon as the downpour stops the 60Ghz can take back duties and 5Ghz is shut down waiting for next event again.....

Re: LHG 60 project in Hawaii

Posted: Tue May 22, 2018 7:30 pm
by WirelessRudy
wAP60 has a specially designed and calibrated beamforming antenna with pre-configured patterns. you can't use it with custom antennas and I am surprised it works for you at all.
OK, and how is this with LHG 60? On bigger distances 'non' beamforming 60Ghz devices are very hard to align. How is this on the 60Ghz LHG? Just eyesight aligning and 'bang' it goes?

Re: LHG 60 project in Hawaii

Posted: Tue May 22, 2018 8:24 pm
by Matess
wAP60 has a specially designed and calibrated beamforming antenna with pre-configured patterns. you can't use it with custom antennas and I am surprised it works for you at all.
thank you for your answer... it was some kind of error... Now even at 500m with wap and custom antenna it works 1,6Gb/s so I am very happy with it. I am using old and unused jirous antennas which can be bought almost for free now. LHG60 is not on stock and never was. I am not sure if it will be legal in Czechia. I am worried about LHG in snowy weather and with jirous with radom it should be better...

Re: LHG 60 project in Hawaii

Posted: Tue May 22, 2018 8:34 pm
by WirelessRudy
I am worried about LHG in snowy weather and with jirous with radom it should be better...
You could be right here. Somewhere on the forum a guy says the 5Ghz LHG's don't work in snow. The snow sticks to the disk and completely destroys the elips needed to reflect the radio waves. And due the design snow sticks easy and packs in the honey-grate structure and takes a long time to melt. So you might be right in that respect...

Re: LHG 60 project in Hawaii

Posted: Tue May 22, 2018 8:36 pm
by WirelessRudy
I am worried about LHG in snowy weather and with jirous with radom it should be better...
You could be right here. Somewhere on the forum a guy says the 5Ghz LHG's don't work in snow. The snow sticks to the disk and completely destroys the elips needed to reflect the radio waves. And due the design snow sticks easy and packs in the honey-grate structure and takes a long time to melt. So you might be right in that respect...
But then again, in Hawaii it never snows! But what about the heat resistance? With lava flowing in the streets this might become an issue with these plastic devices! :lol: :lol:

Re: LHG 60 project in Hawaii

Posted: Tue May 22, 2018 8:49 pm
by Matess
Should I move to Hawai? :)

Re: LHG 60 project in Hawaii

Posted: Tue May 22, 2018 9:05 pm
by blue
Should I move to Hawai? :)
No! Didn’t you hear about vulcanos?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Re: LHG 60 project in Hawaii

Posted: Wed May 23, 2018 12:38 pm
by antonsb
wAP60 has a specially designed and calibrated beamforming antenna with pre-configured patterns. you can't use it with custom antennas and I am surprised it works for you at all.
OK, and how is this with LHG 60? On bigger distances 'non' beamforming 60Ghz devices are very hard to align. How is this on the 60Ghz LHG? Just eyesight aligning and 'bang' it goes?
LEDs show you where to move the device

Re: LHG 60 project in Hawaii

Posted: Wed May 23, 2018 6:08 pm
by WirelessRudy
wAP60 has a specially designed and calibrated beamforming antenna with pre-configured patterns. you can't use it with custom antennas and I am surprised it works for you at all.
OK, and how is this with LHG 60? On bigger distances 'non' beamforming 60Ghz devices are very hard to align. How is this on the 60Ghz LHG? Just eyesight aligning and 'bang' it goes?
LEDs show you where to move the device
WHAT? "LEDS show you"?? Meaning they tell me to; "go left", or "go right"? "Go up", or "go down"?? THAT would be nice... but I doubt it. The leds probably only tell you the signal level. But that is nothing more then a rough adjustment. Fine adjustments would still be needed?
But then again, surprise me.... In some future when these LHG-60's become available I can give it a try....

Re: LHG 60 project in Hawaii

Posted: Thu May 24, 2018 11:06 am
by server8
This is a great installation to test the limit of the technology if we can have some prinstcreen and/or report about signals in rainy days to help to plan future link without selfyesting it :-)

Re: LHG 60 project in Hawaii

Posted: Thu May 24, 2018 3:15 pm
by antonsb
WHAT? "LEDS show you"?? Meaning they tell me to; "go left", or "go right"? "Go up", or "go down"??
Exactly, depending on used beam-forming pattern LHG can tell you where to turn it. LED sticker comes with small arrows and device "blinks you to the right direction"

Re: LHG 60 project in Hawaii

Posted: Thu May 24, 2018 7:04 pm
by WirelessRudy
WHAT? "LEDS show you"?? Meaning they tell me to; "go left", or "go right"? "Go up", or "go down"??
Exactly, depending on used beam-forming pattern LHG can tell you where to turn it. LED sticker comes with small arrows and device "blinks you to the right direction"
Ok, that would be nice.

But then I have one question; Is there a difference in which 'beam-forming' pattern is used? I was given the impression that with the beam forming patterns it didn't make a lot of difference anymore if the two back haul devices were precisely aligned or not....

In fact, we just fit two w60g units in a backhaul constellation where we just aligned by eye sight.
In the C.L. I see now:
/interface w60g> monitor 0
       connected: yes
       frequency: 62640
  remote-address: 30:07:4D:89:F1:BE
             mcs: 8
        phy-rate: 2.3Gbps
          signal: 65
            rssi: -66
       tx-sector: 34
  tx-sector-info: right 11.4 degrees, up 3.8 degrees
       rx-sector: 96
Does this mean we should align this unit a bit better and move it right some 11 degrees and move it up some 4 degrees?

And what are these tx and rx sector's telling us? "rx-sector: 96". What is that?

Could this 'mis' alignment also be the reason we can only get some 600Mbps tcp aggregated over this link that only has to cross some 116 meters..
When I'd try udp traffic we'd reach the full 1Gb cable limit easy.

I was surprised by this since we've setup some P2MP networks with these devices and here we get similar or even better speeds at bigger distances.
I also made a test with a 'wirespeed out of the box' set two months ago and had no problems getting more then 1Gb of aggregated tcp traffic over 150 meters distance.....

So is this unit not aligned well?

Re: LHG 60 project in Hawaii

Posted: Thu May 24, 2018 8:04 pm
by Matess
can someone explain what "signal" means? RSSI is -69 to -70 and signal is load dependent.. up to 100Mb/s = 80, 700Mb (maximum and full duplex) 35 to 50.

It is longest WAP with custom antenna i have... 520m

Re: LHG 60 project in Hawaii

Posted: Fri May 25, 2018 5:30 am
by changeip
can anyone ship these? Ill buy 5-10 right now.

Re: LHG 60 project in Hawaii

Posted: Wed May 30, 2018 3:42 am
by nz_monkey
All those photos of you in Hawaii and not one of them showing you in a swimsuit at the beach. For shame
+1


:D

Re: LHG 60 project in Hawaii

Posted: Sat Jun 02, 2018 12:52 am
by djvolt1942
Results on a rainy day: P Light rainfall ...
w60g_1421 — kopia.jpg

Rock stable at 1200m on the rain. The new antenna model has a box with a connector Keysotne or Krone at the back of the antenna, the front is completely enclosed with a draft radom shield :P

Re: LHG 60 project in Hawaii

Posted: Sat Jun 02, 2018 12:11 pm
by WirelessRudy
Rock stable at 1200m on the rain. The new antenna model has a box with a connector Keysotne or Krone at the back of the antenna, the front is completely enclosed with a draft radom shield :P
?? Photo's of the antenna and the type of shield? Would the shield make any difference in respect of the rain?

Re: LHG 60 project in Hawaii

Posted: Tue Jun 05, 2018 9:10 am
by ccpaulin
The rain affects the attenuation and polarization of millimeter waves, shielding will not lessen the impact of rain.
"At the millimeter wave frequency of 60GHz, the atmospheric absorption is very high, with 98 percent of the transmitted energy absorbed by atmospheric oxygen. While oxygen absorption at 60GHz severely limits range, it also eliminates interference between same frequency terminals.
A 60GHz communications system must overcome the effects of oxygen absorption, 16dB/KM. In order to operate reliably at even short ranges, a very focused, narrow-beam antenna must also be employed to increase the level of signal available to the target receiver. This combination of oxygen absorption and narrow beam transmission enhances the security of the 60GHz radio link, minimizing the probability of unauthorized intercept."

Check the rain level in your area.
This can help: https://www.e-band.com/index.php?id=86

Re: LHG 60 project in Hawaii

Posted: Tue Jun 05, 2018 10:21 am
by normis
The rain affects the attenuation and polarization of millimeter waves, shielding will not lessen the impact of rain.
"At the millimeter wave frequency of 60GHz, the atmospheric absorption ...
We write about the test links that actually are running. I know the limitations of the physics, but we are speaking from experience of actual effects on traffic running on a LHG60 link.

Re: LHG 60 project in Hawaii

Posted: Tue Jun 05, 2018 10:29 am
by ste
The rain affects the attenuation and polarization of millimeter waves, shielding will not lessen the impact of rain.
"At the millimeter wave frequency of 60GHz, the atmospheric absorption ...
We write about the test links that actually are running. I know the limitations of the physics, but we are speaking from experience of actual effects on traffic running on a LHG60 link.

Yes. This is great.

As 60GHz is very special it would be a great if someone does a showcase with a fast 5GHz Failover solution. Esp where 60GHz is used near to it's physical limits and voip is used ...

Re: LHG 60 project in Hawaii

Posted: Tue Jun 05, 2018 4:02 pm
by WirelessRudy
The rain affects the attenuation and polarization of millimeter waves, shielding will not lessen the impact of rain.
"At the millimeter wave frequency of 60GHz, the atmospheric absorption is very high, with 98 percent of the transmitted energy absorbed by atmospheric oxygen. While oxygen absorption at 60GHz severely limits range, it also eliminates interference between same frequency terminals.
A 60GHz communications system must overcome the effects of oxygen absorption, 16dB/KM. In order to operate reliably at even short ranges, a very focused, narrow-beam antenna must also be employed to increase the level of signal available to the target receiver. This combination of oxygen absorption and narrow beam transmission enhances the security of the 60GHz radio link, minimizing the probability of unauthorized intercept."

Check the rain level in your area.
This can help: https://www.e-band.com/index.php?id=86
This is exactly the reason I asked the question.
?? Photo's of the antenna and the type of shield? Would the shield make any difference in respect of the rain?
We've recently had some heavy rains here (reduced visibility to 500 meters due the rain) and the 50-100 meters 60Ghz links with the w60G units had no issue to stay up. (There was no traffic though, but the parameters stayed fine).
We also had some 300 - 350 meter (Ignitenet) 60 GHz links that lost 6 to 9 dB of signal but they managed to stay connected.
So I am really wondering what the LHG 60Ghz link would do under 'it is raining cats and dogs' conditions.

The photo's and movie of the test case of 'djvolt1942' are nice but I can't call that serious rain (nor snow).
This guy in Hawaii with its rain forest alike tropical climate must be able to show us some real life downpour conditions on his link..... I can't believe it didn't rain over there since the initial setup..... :o

Nevertheless I am dying to buy one of the first sets of LHGG60 when they come available in Europe/Spain. I have plenty use for them.... My dreams are to have all my 100 - 1500 meters links replaced by 60 GHz links in an interference free low latency high capacity and affordable backbone network! If I can't beat the 'big' competitors in money I have to play it smart.... :D

Re: LHG 60 project in Hawaii

Posted: Tue Jun 05, 2018 5:45 pm
by djvolt1942
E-Band like Siklu ETH v1200 works at 2500meters at 76GHz!!!.. 16GHz difference and only 500MHz width!

WirelessRudy - do you have in Spain the Snowy days? :P If yes the standard LHG60 doesnt work :P That's why the first links are in Hawaii where there will never be snow... IgniteNet ML-60-35 is ok max up to 1700m.

This are the first stable link thats we made at February at Havy Snowy Day: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=87kzOolah8A

Re: LHG 60 project in Hawaii

Posted: Tue Jun 05, 2018 7:35 pm
by antonsb
E-Band like Siklu ETH v1200 works at 2500meters at 76GHz!!!.. 16GHz difference and only 500MHz width!

WirelessRudy - do you have in Spain the Snowy days? :P If yes the standard LHG60 doesnt work :P That's why the first links are in Hawaii where there will never be snow... IgniteNet ML-60-35 is ok max up to 1700m.

This are the first stable link thats we made at February at Havy Snowy Day: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=87kzOolah8A
This is not LHG 60G in that video and has nothing to do with this thread.
Different frequencies has different oxygen absorption parameters. 60GHz frequency is at it's worst.
In Latvia there are snowy winters and Rainy days - 1500m worked fine alrady before all the major improvements from latest RC releases.
Rain adds some attenuation, but link will stay stable.
Self made antennas won't provide such precision as used in LHG60G as well as there will be no suitable calibration for them.
P.S.
If You will continue to push out Your solution in every post you make, we will be forced to limit your forum access.

Re: LHG 60 project in Hawaii

Posted: Tue Jun 05, 2018 11:26 pm
by djvolt1942
Dear antonsb please answer for my email question about LHG60 :)

Is it possible or not possible to get what I am asking for...

Re: LHG 60 project in Hawaii

Posted: Wed Jun 06, 2018 12:51 am
by WirelessRudy
E-Band like Siklu ETH v1200 works at 2500meters at 76GHz!!!.. 16GHz difference and only 500MHz width!
That's another band and also not a free one. There are plenty of solutions on the market to bridge 2500 meters. But mostly licensed of very, very expensive.... let's stick to the topic.

WirelessRudy - do you have in Spain the Snowy days? :P If yes the standard LHG60 doesnt work :P That's why the first links are in Hawaii where there will never be snow... IgniteNet ML-60-35 is ok max up to 1700m.
We have rarely snow in Spain. I live here now for 16 years and have seen 3 times a morning with a snow deck. In the afternoon it was gone....
Rain is more regular so that's where my concern lies. Although heavy rain is also a pretty rare event here... but it happens, 2 or 3 times a year....

I have 4 Metrolink 60Ghz links running but it took me 2 complete set of RMA's (ALL units!) to keep them running and still they give regular cuts. These units are not worth the money but at the time no economical alternative.
Hence I am waiting for the Mikrotik solution. So far these small (w60G) devices work splendid. Easy to align, easy to setup, affordable, high capacity and small form factor. What more does a man need? Well, some bigger distance. If the new LHG60G devices are as good as their small brothers they will be a landscape mover in short range wireless networking.....

I have a dense populated area to serve and use Mimosa 5ghz for high capacity delivery (up to 200Mbps!). But a w60G as CPE is cheaper then a Mimosa CPE and it works better then the Mimosa too! What a pity we are limited to 7 clients per AP.....
No, after the w60G devices I fell completely in love (again) with Mikrotik. But for short distances only.....
[/quote]

Re: LHG 60 project in Hawaii

Posted: Sun Jun 10, 2018 8:22 am
by venthyl
In my opinion,
snow when snowing is no big problem

in Poland we have sticky snow in windy winter day , in about 0 temperature,
its make all antena in beaten sticky snow

antenna lokls like that

Image

we haeve that weather 2 - 12 days in a year
its cut ~~ 20 db from grid and ~~15 db from dish antennas 5g


dry snow is less problematic, most problem make snow around 0 degree, whitch is sticky,and wet

i think that will kill 60g LHG link
due to antenna construction
Regards

Re: LHG 60 project in Hawaii

Posted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 9:51 am
by antonsb
Please keep in mind that stated 1.5km range is with including weather factors.

Re: LHG 60 project in Hawaii

Posted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 11:50 am
by WirelessRudy
Please keep in mind that stated 1.5km range is with including weather factors.
We have a Wap 60G client connected to a Wap 60G basestation since last week. Distance 204 meters. (Only one other client to this AO at 50 meters).
mcs 4
phy-rate:1155.0Mbps
signal : 40
rssi :-69
tx-sector : 28
tx-sector-info: left 3.8 degrees, down 3.8 degrees
rx-sector : 96

I can 'pump' some 400+mbps over the link so that is fine. But rain fade is an issue. We've had a good but moderate rain shower over weekend and the link dropped a couple of times during this. As soon the severity took off it came back. Actually by the signal I could see the shower increasing or decreasing in its intensity.
This was not a shower like a tropical downpour, we still had some 1000 or more meters visibility. But it shows that these little brothers are effected by serious rain if on the edge of their reach.
The other units at 50mtrs didn't even drop in signal.

I am sure as soon as we have some 60G LHG we can replace this little one by its bigger sister and we have no more rain issue on this link....

Re: LHG 60 project in Hawaii

Posted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 12:18 pm
by Matess
I have prrtty much same problem. Water is a big issue. This weekend signal dropped by 23dBm on 400m. I didnt get my hands on lhg60 yet ( not on stock ) but it seems that signal can drop over 50dBm on 1km. I am using dish with radom. Maybe water on radom is that problem... I dont know. Does anyone has data from lhg in bigger rain?

I also have another question on mikrotik. Are you planning any kind of improvements on ptmp? It works kinda like 802.11b.... More clients = slower speed. Also do you have any plans for backed up lhg with 5GHz?