[Formal Complaint] Support is ignoring my problem for 3 weeks

Frostbyte · Tue Jan 29, 2019 7:49 pm

Hello,

Let me preface this that I have perused the instructions on the official support page and I know that responses are usually issued within 3 business days.

I have 2x RB4011iGS5HacQ2HnD-IN units. First one is working fine, second is having an annoying issue.
The issue at hand:

Usually one or two times (at random) during the course of each week, the 5GHz WiFi shuts off completely (even though the interface remains enabled).
There are no entries in the log file about discovering radars (DFS)
If I attempt to run a scan for frequency usage, no frequencies are returned. Results remain empty as if the scan never ran (but it says it's running).
The only way to resolve the situation (temporarily until the next occurrence) is to reboot the device.

I have opened a ticket to support since 25/12/2018 and the last response from their side was on 8/1/2019 where they asked me to provide supout.rif files from when the problem occurs again.
I have provided 3x supout.rif files so far and an autosupout.rif file (which in itself is an indication that something has indeed gone awry).
Despite of me asking them once per week for a fix or at least a status update, they have left me completely in the dark for three weeks and we're still going.

At the risk of sounding like an entitled *****, this is no way to treat your customers.
Especially if they buy a ******* 230€ device and they expect the darned thing to work.
And more so, if they are loyal customers who are still buying and supporting your products by word of mouth and scripts that they provide for free to everyone.

MikroTik, you either find a way to fix this; or I'm issuing a return and refund from the retailer - and I'm not going to bother with your products again. Your support is horrible at best.

Redmor · Tue Jan 29, 2019 8:33 pm

Can you provide us /export hide-sensitive for both 4011?
Have you upgraded to last stable? Also firmware?
If you swap 4011s (physically and configuration), the problem also happens in the good one or still happens in the "bad" one?
When swapped, if problem happens in the good one it's a config problem, otherwise it's hardware problem.
Make sure you have same ROS version and routerboard firmware before testing.

Frostbyte · Tue Jan 29, 2019 8:48 pm

Can you provide us /export hide-sensitive for both 4011?
Have you upgraded to last stable? Also firmware?
If you swap 4011s (physically and configuration), the problem also happens in the good one or still happens in the "bad" one?
When swapped, if problem happens in the good one it's a config problem, otherwise it's hardware problem.
Make sure you have same ROS version and routerboard firmware before testing.

I would like to avoid exposing configuration of the devices, support already has all of the info that they have requested.
This post has been explicitly made for the attention of any actual MikroTik employee that wishes to see to this matter, or issue an official stance on it.
It primarily concerns the after-sales experience and quality of support.

RouterOS and Firmware for both devices is already the latest (6.43.8 as we speak).
Hard resetting, downgrading (to shipped version) and then upgrading (to latest version) again have also been performed on the secondary device.

I'm unable to secure a downtime window for the primary device at this point in time, but the WiFi configuration is identical on both devices (apart from the SSID names - to avoid confusion).

eddieb · Tue Jan 29, 2019 8:52 pm

as this is a userforum, not a support forum, ALL communication to mikrotik should be addressed to them by e-mail ... preferably to support@mikrotik.com

Redmor · Tue Jan 29, 2019 8:54 pm

Remember that support hasn't so much experience on the field than some forum users, and also time.
I can say for sure that having special characters in SSID (@ for example) or both WPA and WPA2 with tkip and AES cause connection issues to iPhones, I don't know if people from support have this user experience.
I suggest you to /interface wireless export to us and try to swap them to see what happens.

Frostbyte · Tue Jan 29, 2019 9:13 pm

as this is a userforum, not a support forum, ALL communication to mikrotik should be addressed to them by e-mail ... preferably to support@mikrotik.com

Where exactly am I asking for support in this thread? Please read carefully next time.
This is a complaint about the quality of support and their negligence in regards to my problem.
It is not the first time this is happening, but certainly a new low (in magnitude).

Remember that support hasn't so much experience on the field than some forum users, and also time.
I can say for sure that having special characters in SSID (@ for example) or both WPA and WPA2 with tkip and AES cause connection issues to iPhones, I don't know if people from support have this user experience.
I suggest you to /interface wireless export to us and try to swap them to see what happens.

I'm sorry for coming off as aggravated, but when I'm buying a product that offers warranty and support.. I'm expecting, well.. actual support.
Can you imagine the corporate uproar if IBM/Cisco was unable to provide support due to lack of knowledge on their own products? Sounds pretty ridiculous, no?
There are also different categories and escalations depending on the severity of the issue. If we don't have time for issues that prevent devices from functioning as advertised, then for what do we have time for?

For what it's worth, it's not the first time either. I previously had a 2-month back-and-forth with support trying to solve an issue with my previous RouterBOARDS which suddenly decided to start having watchdog reboots daily. Support did nothing but open a remote debugger every 4-5 days and never bothered with actually monitoring the device, as they initially stated that they'd do.
Long story short, issue is still unresolved to this day - but I took the situation to my own hands and bought more powerful devices to replace them with. Oh the irony.

SSID has only alphanumeric characters and no symbols at all, I also don't use any apple devices.
WiFi is working fine, up until the point it decides to stop functioning completely (and requiring a reboot to fix).
The fact that the router is not even producing any results when spectral scanning during these occurrences, might as well mean that an underlying component/module has crashed.
The presence of an autosupout.rif also reinforces the aforementioned belief.

Here is the export you requested (2.4GHz-related stuff were omitted):

/interface wireless security-profiles
set [ find default=yes ] supplicant-identity=MikroTik
add authentication-types=wpa2-psk eap-methods="" management-protection=allowed \
    mode=dynamic-keys name=REDACTED supplicant-identity=""
/interface wireless
set [ find default-name=wlan1 ] band=5ghz-a/n/ac channel-width=20/40/80mhz-XXXX \
    comment="5.0GHz WLAN" country=REDACTED disabled=no frequency=auto \
    frequency-mode=regulatory-domain mode=ap-bridge name=wlan0 \
    security-profile=REDACTED ssid="REDACTED" wireless-protocol=802.11 wps-mode=\
    disabled
/interface wireless manual-tx-power-table
set wlan0 comment="5.0GHz WLAN"
/interface wireless nstreme
set wlan0 comment="5.0GHz WLAN"

Redmor · Tue Jan 29, 2019 9:24 pm

The only strange thing that I see in your config is eap-method="", is that set and blank? If yes, unset it, even if isn't causing the problem.
Try to swap them or buy a third one, apply the same config and see if the problem still happens.
If the problem is solved, you can return your 4011 to vendor.

Frostbyte · Tue Jan 29, 2019 9:37 pm

The only strange thing that I see in your config is eap-method="", is that set and blank? If yes, unset it, even if isn't causing the problem.
Try to swap them or buy a third one, apply the same config and see if the problem still happens.
If the problem is solved, you can return your 4011 to vendor.

That's something that's in there by default, I did not explicitly set this value to anything.
I will try it, but remember, everything apart from the SSIDs are identical on both devices.

Ultimately that's the plan, but I need to have a reply from support before I do so, as I don't want to start an uncalled for dispute with the retailer.

anav · Tue Jan 29, 2019 10:11 pm

There is no complaint forum that I am aware of.
Perhaps you should put in new post at the Feature Request Forum for the following.

a. create a complaints forum
b. create a ticket update website (so that OP and technician can kabitz about the issue indirectly but more effectively)
c. add an electric shock button on MT devices so that when admins are too arrogant to post their config they can be jolted into reality.

Frostbyte · Tue Jan 29, 2019 10:17 pm

There is no complaint forum that I am aware of.
Perhaps you should put in new post at the Feature Request Forum for the following.

a. create a complaints forum
b. create a ticket update website (so that OP and technician can kabitz about the issue indirectly but more effectively)
c. add an electric shock button on MT devices so that when admins are too arrogant to post their config they can be jolted into reality.

a. I'd like to see what you'd do in a similar situation (perhaps sit patiently and have your 230€ device malfunction every other day), before pointing fingers at others.
b. email is just fine, assuming they actually bother to write back to you (and not take about a month to do so).
c. could you care to tell me why exactly posting configuration is applicable here? I take it that reading is not your strong suit either.

How about a little bonus for your list:
d. not participating in discussions that you have nothing meaningful to add to.

Have a nice day.

Redmor · Tue Jan 29, 2019 10:36 pm

The fact that config is the same makes me think that is an hardware problem for sure.
When you reboot there's a frequency change? Maybe you have a 5GHz antenna near 4011 that is using a proprietary protocol different from Nv2 and 802.11 and you can't see it from scan, 4011 selects the same frequency and with 80MHz channel you get to much interference.

Frostbyte · Tue Jan 29, 2019 10:45 pm

The fact that config is the same makes me think that is an hardware problem for sure.
When you reboot there's a frequency change? Maybe you have a 5GHz antenna near 4011 that is using a proprietary protocol different from Nv2 and 802.11 and you can't see it from scan, 4011 selects the same frequency and with 80MHz channel you get to much interference.

I will need clarification as to whether the selected (by the router) frequency is persistent across reboots, when it has been configured as "auto"; before I can answer your inquiry.

Here's the thing however, even if I had interference - I should be able to launch a frequency scan and view which ones are occupied and by how much.
When the device enters that state, the frequency scanner produces no results (empty window) no matter how long you let it run for.
It's as if somebody yanked out the WiFi module during run-time.

Redmor · Wed Jan 30, 2019 12:57 am

Are you using scanner, freq. usage or snooper? Because the first one doesn't show you AP that haven't 802.11, Nstreme or Nv2 (it's like scanning for Wi-Fi using a smartphone, you can't see Nv2 networks).
Use freq. usage or snooper to find out if there's an AP in the same frequency.
The problem with DFS that doesn't select the best frequency should be solved in 6.43.8, but I haven't noticed any difference.
As far as I know MikroTik DFS selects the first enough free frequency it sees and doesn't change it, in some cases the first free frequency isn't good enough.
Remember also that you're using 80MHz channel with regulatory domain so for indoor you have only two non overlapping 80MHz channels for indoor and four for outdoor, I don't know if regulatory domain after 6.43.8 has some limitations for center channel selection.
For 2.4 in frequency auto with 40MHz channel MK always try to avoid channel overlapping, even with 20MHz selects channels 1, 6 and 11 if available.

Frostbyte · Wed Jan 30, 2019 1:44 am

Are you using scanner, freq. usage or snooper? Because the first one doesn't show you AP that haven't 802.11, Nstreme or Nv2 (it's like scanning for Wi-Fi using a smartphone, you can't see Nv2 networks).
Use freq. usage or snooper to find out if there's an AP in the same frequency.
The problem with DFS that doesn't select the best frequency should be solved in 6.43.8, but I haven't noticed any difference.
As far as I know MikroTik DFS selects the first enough free frequency it sees and doesn't change it, in some cases the first free frequency isn't good enough.
Remember also that you're using 80MHz channel with regulatory domain so for indoor you have only two non overlapping 80MHz channels for indoor and four for outdoor, I don't know if regulatory domain after 6.43.8 has some limitations for center channel selection.
For 2.4 in frequency auto with 40MHz channel MK always try to avoid channel overlapping, even with 20MHz selects channels 1, 6 and 11 if available.

I have ruled out DFS because there is no "radar detected on" message*.
Also the 4011 units are two floors apart and they're the only 5GHz "sources" on said floors (also confirmed via Freq. Usage).
And even if DFS was the cause, it would just vacate the frequency and lock onto another one after some time*.
In this case, we're just talking about a permanent disappearance (left it for a few hours to see how/if it will react) unless you reboot.

*Unless DFS is triggering (with no log) and malfunctioning at the same time, so it may have sent us into a wild goose chase. But at this point all is conjecture.

I'm using "Freq. Usage" as the means to check if the 5GHz module is functional.
Once you start it, it slowly populates a table with all of the frequencies it has looked at.
But once the router decides to go into that "unresponsive state", the table does not populate with anything.
It simply doesn't scan.. so it's not far fetched to think that something must've crashed. (I even found an autosupout.rif file lurking on storage at some point)
I hope I managed to explain it a bit better this time.

Redmor · Wed Jan 30, 2019 8:17 am

After this explanation I'm totally sure that is an hardware problem.
Can't you call or email your vendor to be more sure about that, before return?

Reinis · Wed Jan 30, 2019 1:25 pm

I have opened a ticket to support since 25/12/2018 and the last response from their side was on 8/1/2019

Could you please provide your ticket number?

Frostbyte · Wed Jan 30, 2019 1:39 pm

I have opened a ticket to support since 25/12/2018 and the last response from their side was on 8/1/2019
Could you please provide your ticket number?

Thank you for your interest in the matter.
Here is the ticket number you've requested: #2018122522000473

pcunite · Wed Jan 30, 2019 5:00 pm

@Frostbyte,

I'd liked to jump in here to help you with the frustration.

1.
There is a firmware/hardware issue with the WiFi version of the RB4011. I'm on the forums alot, and I'm seeing a pattern with this device.

2.
MikroTik has a support problem. Not because their not nice, or they try to be intentionally mean, or are callously ignoring you. Rather, they have a corporate structure problem with how they allocate resources to help their brand. In other words, they are harming their own brand, not trying to harm their customers. Naturally, it seems like the same thing to us when we get caught in the middle.

3.
Please don't go away, we need people like you. I recommend you discontinue the use of the WiFi version of the RB4011. I use the non-WiFi version (two so far) and it works fantastic. Just hang an AP off the end of ether10 and avoid getting frustrated with MikroTik. When MikroTik fails, they fail badly. So, just avoid these known bad areas. You will only get more angry if you try and depend on a broken product. Sure, they'll get it sorted out, but you'll be on edge. Get the non-WiFi version of the RB4011. Put the bad one in a "test" environment - if you feel like helping them QA their product, which would be appreciated. However, you are well within your rights to simply get a refund.

4.
To MikroTik, if you're reading. I've sent you an email offering to help with support for your English speaking audience and North American timezone. You know, that big email showing you how I could help your customers? I could really help with things like this, and really boost your brand's image. I have the time, talent, and desire to do this. It is rare to get an opportunity like this. When the window closes, it will be gone for good.

While you're sleeping right now, your brand's mind share is eroding away to that other company. Mum events, resellers, consultants, and your 3rd party trainers can not protect you from the sea of Internet discussions about your products. You, MikroTik, must be a part of those online forum based discussions. You, MikroTik, must take more ownership of the support, education, test studies, and promotion of your products.

5.
I'm involved in a network upgrade for a contact. I almost lost the argument for MikroTik to that other shiny company. I literally had to face down the other option using my own personal reputation. Like others, I come to this forum and give stuff away. And it has hit me. Why? Why am I, you, and others doing this? I know why. But I don't think MikroTik knows why. That is where we have to be careful and understand the bigger picture and what could eventually happen.

pe1chl · Wed Jan 30, 2019 6:29 pm

I hope you do realize that MikroTik is already doing a lot when supporting users.
For most products in this category, the factory does not support end-users AT ALL, and delegates this to local distributors or even to the shops that sell the product.
In cases where the factory provides any support, this is usually only done when you pay for an expensive support contract.
With leading router manufacturers, you even require such a support contract to receive ANY firmware updates that might solve problems you have with the product.

In this context, the MikroTik support isn't that bad. Often they reply to messages.
An unfortunate pattern is that messages about "well known problems" (= problems well known to them, not necessarily to the individual customers) receive less attention.
Probably they are all attached to the same trouble ticket in their system, and you can only hope there will be a fix in the firmware.
In this case it can be useful to keep an eye on the releasenotes of the beta versions, maybe your particular problem pops up there.

Frostbyte · Wed Jan 30, 2019 8:40 pm

@pcunite:
While I understand and share your passion about the value and promise that MikroTik brings to the table, in regards to their competition..
While I fully support the open source movement and the things we can all do as a community, for the betterment of the products we chose to purchase..
MikroTik is still a company at the end, no matter how many people choose to defend them and by whatever means. We are buying products, they are not being given to us for free or for review.
In no way, shape or form we are reimbursed by MikroTik for the time we have lost troubleshooting various defects. That's their QA department's job, not the customer's.
The customer, at the very least, expects the device to have it's basic -advertised- functionality. Tell me why would I shell an extra of 65€ to have the addition of WiFi (over the basic RB4011), only for the WiFi itself to not work properly.

I am not unreasonable and I'm willing to give them a few more chances, since support has magically awoken from their slumber once more.
At the end of the day however, both with my previous and current RouterBOARD models, I always have to have some sort of trouble..
The tickets always take 2+ months and typically end up with me yielding remote access to the device. Should the device crash, no reconnection or monitoring takes place, until they check back after a few days like they usually do.
Now, I'm not asking to be the center of the universe.. but at the very least they should up their game in regards to monitoring/debugging their products, because with the way they currently do this, there's a very slim (if any) chance to actually detect what is going wrong. And the customer is left to believe that remote access was unnecessary in the first place, ultimately getting them nowhere.. and time is dragging on while the problem still remains unresolved.

@pe1chl:
If I'm not mistaken, a well known competitor (that I have mentioned already) freely offers on-demand updates for security issues and 3 months for issues pertaining to hardware.
But even if I am to take your word for everything that you just said, the way that this is communicated to the customer is sub par - and that's a huge problem in and of itself.

anav · Wed Jan 30, 2019 8:43 pm

pcunite, I quickly perused the Wireless forum and missed the threads on the issue of which you speak for RB4011??????
If true, then concur MT should be up front and reporting the issue in a post and what they are doing about it.
Communication is the key to combatting issues, and rare is finding a company that does that right.

Thu Jan 31, 2019 9:46 am

I checked that ticket. The email arrived on christmas holidays, so naturally it took a few days longer than usual to get the first response. You have been getting responses ever since, so nobody is ignoring you.

MikroTik is not providing you any warranty or official support, those are provided by the seller/store where you buy the device. Have you tried to contact them at all?

Ulypka · Thu Jan 31, 2019 10:13 am

my situation is much worse i open ticket 10.10.2018
Ticket#2018101022007579
28.11.2018 i gote answer
"I would like to inform you that we have just managed to reproduce this problem locally and currently are working on fixes for upcoming RouterOS versions."

Problem with crash CCR
I had to buy one more router to isolate the problem client

I have been writing for 2 months and ask to report the status
support for 2 months completely ignore me.
I already want to throw out all CCR routers with such terrible supports.

Thu Jan 31, 2019 11:07 am

I don't understand. What do you mean "ignore"? The answer was very clear.

Frostbyte · Thu Jan 31, 2019 12:40 pm

I checked that ticket. The email arrived on christmas holidays, so naturally it took a few days longer than usual to get the first response. You have been getting responses ever since, so nobody is ignoring you.

MikroTik is not providing you any warranty or official support, those are provided by the seller/store where you buy the device. Have you tried to contact them at all?

The ticket was indeed opened on Christmas holidays and supout.rif files were requested on 8th of January.
Prior to the creation of this topic on the 29th of January, I had no further response, even though I contacted back at least once per week.
That is three weeks of silence and not on a holiday season. You can verify this yourself.

We're not talking about misconfiguration or mishandling of the device here, but a potential software bug or hardware defect that prevents the device from functioning properly.
If I'm not mistaken this falls under the European directive for warranty on electrical goods, since the device is not working as advertised.
Granted that it's the retailer's responsibility to handle any replacement procedure, but the malfunction has to be confirmed/verified by your support department first.

Every vendor had I had to file an RMA request at (from computer peripherals all the way to NAS units), has complied with diagnosing problematic devices - leaving you as the only outlier.

Thu Jan 31, 2019 12:48 pm

not really, the seller has full freedom to replace or support the devices as they see fit.

I'm sorry about your troubles. I will make sure that the ticket is resolved quickly.

Frostbyte · Thu Jan 31, 2019 12:55 pm

I'm sorry about your troubles. I will make sure that the ticket is resolved quickly.

I appreciate it. Please note that I have nothing personal with you, MikroTik staff or support personnel.
I just want to solve the problem and carry on with using the device.
I had it rough with a few of your models for various reasons (i.e. random watchdog reboots), but I'm willing to let this one slide as a child-sickness of the device.. since it's still a newly released model with little to no mileage.

Ulypka · Thu Jan 31, 2019 1:00 pm

I don't understand. What do you mean "ignore"? The answer was very clear.

"ignore", means that support does not answer questions about deadlines, even though 2 months have passed since the date when the problem could be reproduced
The problem is very serious. CCR stop forwading traffic.

Thu Jan 31, 2019 1:51 pm

Fixing a software bug that appears randomly can't have a deadline. It will be fixed when we find the issue. Software development is not a precise science with deadlines.

[Formal Complaint] Support is ignoring my problem for 3 weeks

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