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Xymox
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Radical change coming for home and small business networking

Wed Feb 27, 2019 6:57 pm

Cablelabs has standardized a SDN system for use by ISPs in the US ( and the world ) for Cable based systems. This is going to be implemented with a firmware update on MSO CPE gateway gear. This will make the use of a 3rd party router unusable unless it incorporates the new standards. This was announced in Januaray and has the backing of Intel/Comcast to name a few. Its already being deployed in tests on the COmcast network. So its a ready to go system.

Its going to be advertized like crazy to consumers starting late 2019 and full roll out is expected in 2020 along with 10G Full Duplex over cable along with the gateays doing WiFi6.

I will desperately need Miktoik to have this protocol up and running quickly. I attended a webinar yesterday and they are seeking 3rd party vendors to contact them as they have a opensource implementation available.

Im not fully sure I understand all of it as its quite complex. Its very advanced SDN that works on Open Flow Switch and also has something to do with EZ Connect.

Im not going to be able to deploy Mikrotik routers starting in 2020 unless they have this. All the major ISPs in the US are on board on this new standard.

Its the biggest change in client networking maybe ever..

https://www.cablelabs.com/micronets
Last edited by Xymox on Tue Mar 05, 2019 5:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Re: Radical change coming for home and small buisness networking

Wed Feb 27, 2019 7:00 pm

[link removed]
 
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Re: Radical change coming for home and small buisness networking

Sun Mar 03, 2019 10:31 pm

A Lot is about to change for small buis networking if its connected to cable based ( DOCSIS ) networking..

[link removed]
 
anav
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Re: Radical change coming for home and small buisness networking

Sun Mar 03, 2019 10:42 pm

Gotta link for any other information. Right now the only credible source is one company/site????
Where are the adoptees??
I would suspect that the name of the game would be transparency and the word that will be avoided is disruption.
In other words technology that is going to cost people and force them to change will not be adopted rapidly.
So regardless of what Cablecos will do, if they are not careful will simply drive them to Telephone Fiber solutions.
If you are talking within the home, bottom dollar is that the technolgy will naturally merge with existing units first and then
slowly morph..... (I did note that micronets is open source !! )
I'd rather manage rats than software. Follow my advice at your own risk! (Sob & mkx forced me to write that!)
 
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Re: Radical change coming for home and small buisness networking

Mon Mar 04, 2019 12:26 am

Good luck with that
 
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Re: Radical change coming for home and small buisness networking

Mon Mar 04, 2019 12:38 am

Hmmm.... I watched this video and what comes to my eyes is "security manager will configure customers' micornets to be safe/secure etc...." or sth like that ...
Who the ..... is Alice ... opssss ... security manager?
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Re: Radical change coming for home and small buisness networking

Mon Mar 04, 2019 1:28 am

Good luck with that
At first I thought, ah someone has shares invested, but then I realized that probably not, if one cannot spell business properly. ;-)
I'd rather manage rats than software. Follow my advice at your own risk! (Sob & mkx forced me to write that!)
 
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Re: Radical change coming for home and small buisness networking

Mon Mar 04, 2019 6:46 am

Because what we need is another way to the ISPs control our internal networks. What could go wrong?
 
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Re: Radical change coming for home and small buisness networking

Tue Mar 05, 2019 3:34 am

 
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Re: Radical change coming for home and small buisness networking

Tue Mar 05, 2019 3:51 am

My main concern is that Mikrotik support the protocols. YES, its a evil and bad idea, but... Its coming anyway.. At CES 10G with all this micronet stuff was EVERYWHERE. There is a PUSH for this for homes like ive never seen before.

It allows ISP to do scary things. Like charge you per device on wifi. Or control bandwidth per device. It allows them to divide and then sell things like "automation networking, health networking, etc". So.. It gives a ISP device specific controls.

This will spread like wildfire as it will make a ISP a TON of money.

In the US the vast number of people dont have choices. DSL is so slow its unusable. Fiber does not, and will not, exist for the vast majority,,, so its DOCSIS based cable or 5G wireless. 5G wireless has all sorts of issues like terrible latency and rank jitter. SO. Its really a monopoly, DOCSIS cable. AND THEY KNOW IT.. So here comes 10G..

ANY DOCSIS 3.1 gateway deployed can be firmware updated to do all this. No new hardware needed. Says so in the webinar above.. They already have it standardized and its working now. At CES they announced internal trials to start with Comcast this year.

Its a torjan horse. It will be sold as a security upgrade for the IoT and the way of the future, when in reality, it will end networking at home as we know it.

BUT... Thats not my reason to post.. As its inevitable, I need Mikrotik to start working with Cablelabs and get on board. I REFUSE to use a cable co gateway router. I drop CCR1036's into homes now, and a CableCo gateway running a Intel Puma 7 would be a horrible downgrade in performance and security. So im not focusing on the monopoly aspects and the unethical aspects, I just need to get Mikrotik aware of it and they its gonna start getting deployed late this year or first part of next year in homes.
 
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Re: Radical change coming for home and small buisness networking

Tue Mar 05, 2019 4:24 am

ALSO.. As Cablelab sets standards that the whole world uses, rest assured this is coming to every DOCSIS based ISP world wide.
 
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Re: Radical change coming for home and small business networking

Tue Mar 05, 2019 5:16 am

As far as adoption goes.. Comcast, the largest ISP in north America with 14 million subscribers in 39 US states has fully committed..Intel is committed for the silicon.
https://www.lightreading.com/cable/ccap ... -id/748715?

This is the future of networking. SDN, and this standard, will change the connected home forever.

Cablelabs is working currently with partners like Cisco and HP ( Aruba ). Mikrotik needs to be a Cablelabs partner on micronet. As its opensource, I would think it should be pretty easy to incorporate. The contact information is in the webinar.
Last edited by Xymox on Tue Mar 05, 2019 5:19 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Re: Radical change coming for home and small business networking

Tue Mar 05, 2019 5:17 am

I don't think here in Brazil - or in any standard poor country in the world - this technology would prevail from start.
USA providers have tons of money, some experts and has time to implement those crazy all-in-one vulnerable protocols.
 
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Re: Radical change coming for home and small business networking

Tue Mar 05, 2019 5:23 am

Even in Brazil. Its a firmware update and works on existing gear. Even on pre DOCSIS 3.1 according to the webinar. It allows a ISP a new buis model with the ability to charge for each device and service. It also provides really advanced security. All at little cost to the ISP.

I completely agree tho, its going to take time for it to get everywhere. BUT it comes from the company that defined DOCSIS. Cablelabs. Your cable modem and the CMTS in use at the ISP is DOCSIS. So this same standards body will eventually get to every DOCSIS based system world wide as a firmware upgrade.

This comes from the company that created and maintains DOCSIS. This is serious. https://www.cablelabs.com/about-cablela ... -companies
 
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Re: Radical change coming for home and small business networking

Tue Mar 05, 2019 5:38 am

You might get better roadmap directly from MikroTik, where this feature goes completely out of a routing scope and enters an pay to play or such things - remember Windows and its force privacy contracts when you give too much power.

It's not like IANA and ISO things are respected when their scope goes too brand either, so the DOCSIS standard can be well rejected outside USA without any kind of problem.

And in terms of security, well, I have a Python script here that can download the whole backup of any TP-Link until 2016 models - so what is the purpose of an central management and complex paywall, where anyone can access (after breach) directly after BGP hardware, when too many vulnerabilities still exist in primitive/obsolete and still used protocols.

This is not something well received by any security user.
 
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Re: Radical change coming for home and small buisness networking

Tue Mar 05, 2019 2:18 pm

.
I watched this Youtube video and I wouldn't be a fan of an ISP that may be directed by an external party to control my router in ways suggested.
 
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Re: Radical change coming for home and small business networking

Tue Mar 05, 2019 4:05 pm

Even in Brazil. Its a firmware update and works on existing gear. Even on pre DOCSIS 3.1 according to the webinar. It allows a ISP a new buis model with the ability to charge for each device and service. It also provides really advanced security. All at little cost to the ISP.

I completely agree tho, its going to take time for it to get everywhere. BUT it comes from the company that defined DOCSIS. Cablelabs. Your cable modem and the CMTS in use at the ISP is DOCSIS. So this same standards body will eventually get to every DOCSIS based system world wide as a firmware upgrade.

This comes from the company that created and maintains DOCSIS. This is serious. https://www.cablelabs.com/about-cablela ... -companies
Here we have a lot more options than only cable. We have far less cable ISPs than anything else, and people gets really angry with such things. I have FTTP, and FTTH is getting common too. No cable modem here, no cable modem there and a lot of people that like to torrent and game as if their lifes depended on it.

We would have a field day the time one ISP started this nonsense.
 
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Re: Radical change coming for home and small business networking

Tue Mar 05, 2019 7:07 pm

I am glad to see other networking pros opposed to this.

Its too late tho. Its coming to the US next year. It will come with a huge advertising campaign backed by all the major ISPs. In 2 years it will be in every home.

It DOES have some possible very good things it can do.

1. It can isolate things on a network and provide better mitigation.
2. It can contain really bad IoT devices that have terrible security.
3. It allows completely unskilled home users better security.

The above reasons are what will be in all the ads. This is how they will roll in the trojan horse. Unskilled home users will think its magical and will protect them. Which it most likely will protect them from themselves.

It can adapt with rules and device quartione across a entire ISP if a device is found to be a issue.

Of course a ISP could abuse the system and have it only allow specific devices on the network.

Goverments will love this system as it allows them to have fine grained control of what gets hooked to the network. They can restrict what each device does.

ISP will profit from this in many ways. This is really important right now as Cable ISPs are loosing subscribers in record numbers with people going to the internet for services.

Most of the ISP in the US are committed. Most of the ISPs in Eurpoe are committed. This will start to roll out in 2020. Its a firmware update to a Cable Co gateway. A customer cannot block a firmware update to a cable co owned gateway. So there will be no choice for most normal cable company clients who use a gateway supplied by the cable company.

I want the option to use a Broadcom based DCOSIS 3.1 modem and a Mikrotik router. I do not want to be forced to throw away a CCR and use a cable company supplied gateway. Maybe then I can manage the micronet "features"..
 
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Re: Radical change coming for home and small business networking

Tue Mar 05, 2019 7:15 pm

i have sent a email making Cablelabs aware of this forum thread. Maybe they might want to comment.
 
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Re: Radical change coming for home and small business networking

Tue Mar 05, 2019 9:36 pm

Have you drunk their koolaid?
 
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Re: Radical change coming for home and small business networking

Wed Mar 06, 2019 3:46 am

:lol:

Well.. im not sure about the koolaid yet.. Im concerned that koolaid is being prepared and dispensing begins next year.. I am concerned. The koolaid looks soothing and delicious, but, you never know whats in it.

I don't think there is any way to make micronets safe from ISP perversion to gain profits.

Im concerned it introduces a new class of security risk as the whole system that manages the micronets will have security CVEs and possibly expose all users on a ISP managed micronet network.

SDN brings a new class of security concerns.

10G has massive backing from US ISPs and from huge players like Intel who will sell zillions of its Puma 7 chip inside new gateways.

Cable MSOs are going this way. The decisions are already made.

I am going to stick to a NAT router and block all this micronet stuff as long as i possibly can. I already subnet my devices. I isolate things like my roku and cameras. So far i don't see anything this offers me that i cant provide manually. HOWEVER. My clients will hear all the ads and will for sure want to adopt it. I can see IoT devices having a label on the front saying they are 10G ready.
 
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Re: Radical change coming for home and small business networking

Wed Mar 06, 2019 6:37 am

I don't think I need to repeat what other users said before me - that its crazy, scary and terrible idea.

However, lets look at the technical way of it:
This will make the use of a 3rd party router unusable unless it incorporates the new standards
This sounds weird and I assume you misunderstood the promotion. I couldn't find any reference to this statement - i.e anything saying that 3rd party routers without micronet support will be excluded from the network. What is stated is just obvious consequence - micronet features won't be available on 3rd party router which does not support it. (because how could it be available when its not supported, right?)
As you already stated - you can shield yourself with NAT which is basic feature of every single router on the market and unless ISP decide to break Ethernet and IPv4 principle, they can't do much with it.
 
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Re: Radical change coming for home and small business networking

Wed Mar 06, 2019 8:33 am

Xymox,

Be responsible ISP/IT company and inform your customers that someone tries to take over their security.

Inform them about pros and cons and explain why you prefer not to jump into that train.

Easy.
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Re: Radical change coming for home and small business networking

Wed Mar 06, 2019 12:03 pm

:lol:
I am going to stick to a NAT router and block all this micronet stuff as long as i possibly can. I already subnet my devices. I isolate things like my roku and cameras. So far i don't see anything this offers me that i cant provide manually. HOWEVER. My clients will hear all the ads and will for sure want to adopt it. I can see IoT devices having a label on the front saying they are 10G ready.
.
This is old thinking.
IPv6 and an architecture solution like micronet is the future. But having the control manipulated within your network by an outside party I find unacceptable. IPv6 will enable an ISP to block a malicious or hijacked device on your network from causing mischief outside on the internet.
 
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Re: Radical change coming for home and small business networking

Wed Mar 06, 2019 12:49 pm

No. It's not old thinking.

My net is my castle. Period.
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Re: Radical change coming for home and small business networking

Wed Mar 06, 2019 2:46 pm

If it can be abused, it WILL be abused by bad ISPs. It's simple as that. They can smell money from every slide of that presentation.
"Hi Dave, looks like you just connected another phone to your home WIFI! For just $5/mo, it will be able to access internet"
This is going back 20 years, when you had to clone MAC addresses and hide behind NAT, so your home network looked like single PC.

ISPs should be pure service providers, nothing more, nothing less. Give me connectivity I need and don't bother with details.
And arguments about bad devices.. well... If there is some device on my network doing something that's against the contract I signed, you as an ISP should cut my connection. Simple as that. But there should be no gray area, where provider tries to pentest my network devices or classify them. You are either with compliance with the rules or you are not.

In the end this will be pushed as solution for "regular home users", meaning you will have to pay extra for business-class connection if you don't want it. Glad I live in area where there's plenty of ISPs I can choose from. But I can see how bad this can get in the US with Comcast etc.
 
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Re: Radical change coming for home and small business networking

Sun Mar 10, 2019 9:31 am

Man this stuff is annoying... But consumers are going to fall completely for this... They have NOTHING that will use 10Gbps. But consumers think 10Gbps will make browsing faster, it will make everything faster and better... jeeze... And in comes the micronet Trojan horse...

https://www.10gplatform.com/
 
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Re: Radical change coming for home and small business networking

Sun Mar 10, 2019 9:35 am

BIG players are going to be deploying this...

[link removed]
 
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Re: Radical change coming for home and small business networking

Fri Jun 14, 2019 9:34 am

Let me remind everyone that this forum is not meant for advertisement but for the community to help each other and share knowledge.

Please refrain from posting duplicate links in separate posts with the intention just to bump the thread.
 
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Re: Radical change coming for home and small business networking

Sat Jun 15, 2019 10:42 am

So CableLabs will transform the DOCSIS-standard into a propertary SDN concept that will only permit ISP-managed routers/APs? And every client will be micro-managed by the ISP in some way?

Then lets just hope that people will hack the gateways and reverse engineer this stupidness.
Manages some CCR's, RB750Gr3, RB922 and wAP's
 
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Re: Radical change coming for home and small business networking

Sun Jun 16, 2019 3:54 pm

So CableLabs will transform the DOCSIS-standard into a propertary SDN concept that will only permit ISP-managed routers/APs? And every client will be micro-managed by the ISP in some way?

Then lets just hope that people will hack the gateways and reverse engineer this stupidness.
Let's hope people will leave these ISPs, and they implode and go away. An ideia like this must be nuked from orbit, and the sooner the better.
 
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Re: Radical change coming for home and small business networking

Mon Jun 17, 2019 1:23 am

According to the links above trials are scheduled in early 2020, followed by devices certification process so it is still a couple years away before it is adopted.
 
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Re: Radical change coming for home and small business networking

Mon Jun 17, 2019 7:54 am

.

krisjanisj:

Let me remind everyone that this forum is not meant for advertisement but for the community to help each other and share knowledge.

Please refrain from posting duplicate links in separate posts with the intention just to bump the thread.

How is this a advertisement ? Its a plea for help and a heads up to Mikrotik that cable based ISP client models are about to change radically and if Mikrotik does not support it, they will be shut out of the market. For example, I will not be able to deploy CCR1036's into high end homes. I don't know what percentage of the market this represents to Mikrotik, so, maybe it does not matter, maybe it does. Cable represents 80%+ of homes in the US. The time is now to get on board. I NEED Mikrotik. Ive never used anything else for the last 10 years. All my high end work is based on the networking in these homes and i need Mikrotik as the router. So this thread is a plea for help. Cable Labs is in bed with various CPE makers like Arris, Netgear, Cisco, Technicolor to name a few and I DO NOT WANT TO BE FORCED To USE THOSE PRODUCTS.

I posted about this in the appropriate forum, new features, and that thread was locked. Thats fine as it was indeed duplicate. However I would suggest to mods that THIS thread needs to be moved. I put it in the wrong forum. It needs to be in new features. The other thread should be deleted.

From that thread I would like to respond to a post.

vecernik87:

I am really starting to believe that you are shareholder in one of key companies and you want to promote this craziness...

I am not promoting this. I am actively fighting this. I feel Cable Labs is a evil entity.
https://www.dslreports.com/forum/r31122 ... start=8926

I am the class representative in a major class action lawsuit against Arris and Intel over the truly terrible Intel Puma modem chip. I run https://www.Badmodems.com . So I think all the cable modem mfgrs hate me.

Im the guy behind this lawsuit https://www.theregister.co.uk/2017/04/1 ... a_6_arris/

Im after PERFORMANCE.. Mikrotik defines that. The CCR1036 is the best way to go for the new 10Gbps home networks. I have them deployed in 100+ super high end homes right now. I can't live without Mikrotik routers.. So this BS from Cable Labs is terrible for me because it may force me to use HORRIBLE performance gateway/modem/routers supplied by the cable company VS a CCR.

So im desperate. I know beta testers in Comcast now with Micronets in use. Comcast is already up and running in beta. This is 6 months away... Arris, Netgear and others are already in the beta with hardware in use.

Also from the other thread

mada3k:
agree that it would be nice if Mikrotik came up with some SDN-SD-WAN-ish orchestration solution. But this area is just so over-hyped for the moment and everyone rushes to be the self proclaimed "leader".

It's impossible to support every new SDN-concept or VPN solution that pops up once a week nowadays.

This is Cable Labs. Its DOCSIS. Every cable modem on earth uses this. So THIS SDN has already won and will dominate homes and small buis as Cable Internet is 89% of internet users in the US. https://broadbandnow.com/Cable and they will ALL go Micronet starting in 2020.

SO.. I feel strongly that Mikrotik should partner right away and get on board.


Error0x29A: According to the links above trials are scheduled in early 2020, followed by devices certification process so it is still a couple years away before it is adopted.

Betas, with 4 different manufacturers, is already underway in homes on Comcast networks. Any existing DOCSIS 3.1 modem/gateway can run it, its just a firmware update. Its also just firmware updates for existing CMTS and routers at the ISP. So there really is not a delay like there is for hardware certification. Cable Labs has been working on it quietly with Comcast and Arris for 4 years already.

I am sorry I am so passionate about this. I hate the cable companies and their CPE gear is junk. I do not want to be stuck with it. The standard looks pretty easy and based on other open standards. Should be reasonably easy.
 
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Re: Radical change coming for home and small business networking

Mon Jun 17, 2019 1:38 pm

DOCSIS=DODO bird. If you are not using fibreop by now you must have a single eyebrow! ;-)
I'd rather manage rats than software. Follow my advice at your own risk! (Sob & mkx forced me to write that!)
 
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Re: Radical change coming for home and small business networking

Tue Jun 18, 2019 8:45 am

DOCSIS=DODO bird. If you are not using fibreop by now you must have a single eyebrow! ;-)

Or my residential clients can never get fiber. The V A S T majority of US residential clients will NEVER get fiber. However EVERY client I have has DOCSIS 3.1 cable.

Maybe you missed the link I provided above. 89% of residential internet subscribers at home use Cable ( DOCSIS ).

Fiber only accounts for 9%.

https://www.businessinsider.com/fiber-o ... low-2016-2

So in the US, 89% of the total residential market, will be going to DOCSIS 3.1 10G & Micronets in the next 3 years.

And tahts just the US market. Cable DOCSIS has a worldwide footprint and large market penetration in many countries. These will over time upgrade thier systems/firmware to also support the new CableLabs standards.

This is a big change and I would really like for Mikrotik to participate in this. It might even be possible to make a lot of money by having a CableLabs certified SOHO router for micronets ready to go. Lots of people will be looking for this in the year or 2 ahead and Mikrotik could be at the top of the google search results. Amazon sales could be really profitable.

A modem+Tik router would make a far more powerful solution then a Arris cable company supplied CPE box.
 
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Re: Radical change coming for home and small business networking

Tue Jun 18, 2019 9:16 am

I think you are really blowing this out of proportion in a “the sky is falling” sort of way. I can tell you right now that cable providers are not going to prevent you from using third party routers just because of this new technology option. You will be able to continue to use CCR routers on these connections even if they don’t support SDN. So what are you in such a panic about?

Perhaps you think that your clients will refuse to buy MikroTik routers from you if they don’t have micronet support because those clients drank the SDN marketing kool-aid. But I can’t see that either. Unless micronets are really something wonderful that everybody will love, I don’t see why your customers should refuse to buy routers from you just because they don’t support micronets. Are you trying to say that micronets will be so wonderful and fantastic that people would refuse to buy a router without support for them?
 
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Re: Radical change coming for home and small business networking

Tue Jun 18, 2019 9:26 pm

I agree that most DOCSIS/cable CPEs is horrible and they should only focus on converting Ethernet to DOCSIS.

If Mikrotik implents the "micronets"-stack, what guarantee is there it will work with an all-in Arris/Technicolor/whatever-only-ISP and will you be able to modify the ISPs rules anyways?
Manages some CCR's, RB750Gr3, RB922 and wAP's
 
Error0x29A
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Re: Radical change coming for home and small business networking

Wed Jun 19, 2019 3:13 am

If Mikrotik implents the "micronets"-stack, what guarantee is there it will work with an all-in Arris/Technicolor/whatever-only-ISP and will you be able to modify the ISPs rules anyways?
Nothing is stopping modem vendors from installing security certificate on the residential gateway like they did for ATT devices (Arris BGW210). That alone will make replacing the gateway, almost impossible.

In other news, Cisco well known network vendor is further advancing into software defined networking(SDN)
It just announced major changes to their certification program, introducing 3 new software developer DevNet tracks.
https://www.cisco.com/c/en/us/training- ... tions.html

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