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hazefromskw
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SFP RB4011

Fri Jul 05, 2019 7:50 am

Hi all
I need recomendation, for sfp gpon onu RB 4011.

I was try 2 moduls sfp but not work.

Thanks.
RB4011
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Error0x29A
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Re: SFP RB4011

Fri Jul 05, 2019 4:16 pm

Hi all
I need recomendation, for sfp gpon onu RB 4011.

I was try 2 moduls sfp but not work.

Thanks.
What SFP modules?
What is the software version on your RB4011

Provide some info to us.
 
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Re: SFP RB4011

Fri Jul 05, 2019 4:55 pm

On Mikrotik page about the 4011:

We have two versions available.

RB4011iGS+5HacQ2HnD-IN-US (USA) is factory locked for 2412-2462MHz, 5170-5250MHz and 5725-5835MHz frequencies. This lock can not be removed.

RB4011iGS+5HacQ2HnD-IN (International) supports 2412-2484MHz and 5150MHz-5875MHz range (Specific frequency range can be limited by country regulations).

Note: The RB4011 does not support Passive DAC modules and SFP GPON modules


https://mikrotik.com/product/rb4011igs_5hacq2hnd_in
Two RB760iGS (hEX S) in series. One does PPPoE and both do IKEv2.
Running:
RouterOS 6.46Beta59 / Winbox 3.20 / MikroTik APP 1.3.7
Having an Android device, use https://github.com/M66B/NetGuard/releases (no root required)
 
Error0x29A
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Re: SFP RB4011

Fri Jul 05, 2019 5:41 pm

On Mikrotik page about the 4011:
Note: The RB4011 does not support Passive DAC modules and SFP GPON modules

They(Mikrotik) do it all the time, writing that something is not supported to avoid a headache with support queries.

As I wrote in another post, Russian users have no problems using GPON modules with theirs RB4011. Perhaps not all GPON models are supported but GPON SFP Sticks from Zisa OP151S and D-Link DPN-100 are reported as working
https://translate.google.com/translate? ... tart%3D560
 
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mozerd
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Re: SFP RB4011

Fri Jul 05, 2019 11:04 pm

As I wrote in another post, Russian users have no problems using GPON modules with theirs RB4011. Perhaps not all GPON models are supported but GPON SFP Sticks from Zisa OP151S and D-Link DPN-100 are reported as working
https://translate.google.com/translate? ... tart%3D560
It all depends on the SYNC rate used by the PON provider and whether the PON Provider will accept PON transceivers from parties that they have no affiliation with. So your comment is a little misleading. The OP MUST find out which GPON MODELS are acceptable to the PON provider and will those GPON modules sync properly. The only REAL solution is for MikroTik to provide firmware that does effective auto-negotiation. most PON providers usually insist that only their whitelisted devices be used.
 
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Re: SFP RB4011

Sat Jul 06, 2019 1:18 am

This is what happens when you dont regulate industry and companies play these stupid games.
Make a standard and follow it.
I'd rather manage rats than software. Follow my advice at your own risk! (Sob & mkx forced me to write that!)
 
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Re: SFP RB4011

Sat Jul 06, 2019 4:50 am

It all depends on the SYNC rate used by the PON provider and whether the PON Provider will accept PON transceivers from parties that they have no affiliation with.

GPON standard defines one downstream data rate of 2.48832 Gbps which any GPON ONU/ONT has potential of receiving, regardless who manufactured them. The OP has no problem on the WAN side of the SFP. It is an issue of UNI/LAN ONT reference point syncing to the Mikrotik's at the requested rate.
Whether ISP will accept transceivers from 3rd. parties is another matter. Sometimes it it vendor lock-in and extra license required to use 3rd. party ONTs. Increase in support calls and ease of provisioning is another factor.

The only REAL solution is for MikroTik to provide firmware that does effective auto-negotiation.

I agree, that would be the best course of action. Let's hope that underlying RB4011's hardware is capable of providing data rates we need 1Gb/2.5Gb on the SFP+ port and simple firmware update will take care of that.
GPON SFPs with Intel/Lantiq chipsetS PEB/PEF 98035 like OP151S used by Russian customers and Nokia/Huawei used by Canadians support both LAN data rates: 2.5G SGMII and 1000Base-X. I suspect that Canadian ISPs auto-provision Nokia and Huawei in the 2.5G mode.

Has anyone tried to login into the SFP and using shell commands to change the rate to see if it connects to RB4011 at 1Gb?
 
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Re: SFP RB4011

Sat Jul 06, 2019 1:41 pm

Has anyone tried to login into the SFP and using shell commands to change the rate to see if it connects to RB4011 at 1Gb?
@Error0x29A, YES you make excellent points.

I have not not tried to login into the SFP .... did not know that could be done because Root is locked on RoS ???

In Canada Bell provisions 2 high speed teers; [they do have lower teers -- but the sync rate remains the same]
[1] 1G D and 700M U
[2] 1.5G D and 940 U
To get those teers the SFP module must sync at 2.5G -- so they lock the SYNC rate to 2.5 and if its adjusted down via hack they will not provision the service which is why BELL insists that only their 'locked' modules be used.
 
Error0x29A
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Re: SFP RB4011

Sat Jul 06, 2019 5:00 pm

.
I have not not tried to login into the SFP .... did not know that could be done because Root is locked on RoS ???


Canada Bell users. Great community and great users.
https://www.dslreports.com/forum/r32433213-
 
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Re: SFP RB4011

Sat Jul 06, 2019 5:26 pm

This is what happens when you dont regulate industry and companies play these stupid games.
Make a standard and follow it.
The standards are there and they are being strictly enforced ... and I believe that MikroTik adhere to the standards .... the problem is how the PON providers choose to implement their services and the control they want to exercise over the gear that runs on their network. There are very significant challenges implementing effective auto-negotiation protocols over fiber --- auto-negotiation is in effect an Ethernet Protocol and adapting it to fiber is not in any way a trivial task.

In CANADA [also true in the USA] The principle issue is the SYNC Rate that Bell in Canada has chosen that forces many people to only use Bell Provided Gateways and from a Bell support perspective that makes a lot of sense. ... so if you want to use MikroTik Routers like the RB4011 and want to utilize the SFP+ port for WAN connectivity -- you cannot --- you are then forced to go the Media Converter route like I described in another thread. I do not know if the CCR models have the same sync issue cause I have not had the occasion to test that out BUT I suspect that its going to be the same result. When Bell goes to 10G [in fall of 2020] I suspect [and hope :) ] all these compatibility issues will be resolved.

There are creative ways to overcome this and many have with purpose built machines and a lot of customization at the driver level --- but that is something that has absolutely no mass appeal -- such as @Error0x29A has pointed out.
 
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Re: SFP RB4011

Sun Jul 07, 2019 11:31 pm

So David, are you saying that in the near future we may be able to connect the RB4011 directly to the incoming fibre line from the street and bypass the ONT? I know the technician spent some time configuring the ONT to the account settings on their database (so they talk to each other). How would you do that on the RB??
I'd rather manage rats than software. Follow my advice at your own risk! (Sob & mkx forced me to write that!)
 
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Re: SFP RB4011

Tue Jul 09, 2019 5:04 pm

So David, are you saying that in the near future we may be able to connect the RB4011 directly to the incoming fibre line from the street and bypass the ONT? I know the technician spent some time configuring the ONT to the account settings on their database (so they talk to each other). How would you do that on the RB??
The SFP Transceiver that Bell provides includes the ONT so I suspect that when Bell implement 10G their replacement SFP+ Transceiver will also include the ONT.

The issue is the Sync Rate and whether the module is passive or active

So insofar as the RB4011 and its SFP+ port is concerned -- it only accepts Active modules that Sync at 1.25G or 10G and will not accept 2.5G for sync rate.
I am assuming that Bell move to 10G will have the ability to Sync at 10G so in that case The RB4011 SFP+ port could be used directly although its still a PON network so I could be 100% wrong --- its all very new to me.

IF you are wondering abut the difference between Active/Passive modules.

I WISH that MikroTik would better explain why they have chosen the Active method vs the Passive method for their SFP[+] === I suspect that its a lot easier to implement.
 
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Re: SFP RB4011

Wed Jul 10, 2019 4:28 am

The issue is the Sync Rate and whether the module is passive or active

So insofar as the RB4011 and its SFP+ port is concerned -- it only accepts Active modules that Sync at 1.25G or 10G and will not accept 2.5G for sync rate.
I am assuming that Bell move to 10G will have the ability to Sync at 10G so in that case The RB4011 SFP+ port could be used directly although its still a PON network so I could be 100% wrong --- its all very new to me.

IF you are wondering abut the difference between Active/Passive modules.

I WISH that MikroTik would better explain why they have chosen the Active method vs the Passive method for their SFP[+] === I suspect that its a lot easier to implement.

You appear to be confusing Active vs. Passive optical networks with Active vs. Passive SFP+ modules:
All optical SFP[+] modules themselves are active as they contain electronics to convert between optical and electrical signals.
Only direct attach cables (DAC) can be active or passive - active cables contain electronics to amplify and condition signals, whereas passive cables are purely two twinax cables.

This explains the differences.
 
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Re: SFP RB4011

Wed Jul 10, 2019 4:06 pm

You appear to be confusing Active vs. Passive optical networks with Active vs. Passive SFP+ modules:
All optical SFP[+] modules themselves are active as they contain electronics to convert between optical and electrical signals.
Only direct attach cables (DAC) can be active or passive - active cables contain electronics to amplify and condition signals, whereas passive cables are purely two twinax cables.

This explains the differences.
@tdw ... thanks for your input.

The following provides an exceptionally good overview of How Stuff Works:
How Fiber-to-the-home Broadband Works
 
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Re: SFP RB4011

Wed Jul 10, 2019 4:22 pm

The following provides an exceptionally good overview of How Stuff Works:
How Fiber-to-the-home Broadband Works
@tdw has a point: from router's point of view, any SFP connection to optical network (regardless if it's active or passive) is using "active" SFP module.

The problem here (which is not entirely dividing AON and PON) is that some SFP modules perform much more than just conversion between optical and electrical physical interfaces, they treat data stream as well (think of VDSL SFP modules). And such "intelligent" SFP modules need some support from router which router might not know how to provide. Due to this GPON by Bell might not work any better on Routerboards when they move to 10Gbps sync rate.
BTW, PON can be built around simple SFP modules, but then much more processing is left to CPE ... which, in case of DIY customers, can pose a problem (because such users might get possibility to snoop on neighbours or impersonate them or whatever). With AON that's not necessary because ISP's active equipment (mostly) takes care of this.

BTW2, sync rate over optical fibre needs not be the same as sync rate between SFP module and router. I've seen cases where device only supported 2.67Gbps sync rate (SFP), but when (backward compatible) SFP+ module was inserted, it successfully used 10Gbps sync over optical fibre (we verified that via DDM interface). End-to-end data rate was still 2.67 Gbps. But all of this requires some fine software engineering to make it work without notable problems.
BR,
Metod
 
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Re: SFP RB4011

Wed Jul 10, 2019 4:44 pm

And such "intelligent" SFP modules need some support from router which router might not know how to provide. Due to this GPON by Bell might not work any better on Routerboards when they move to 10Gbps sync rate.
Thanks @mkx ...... so what you're saying is that due to MikroTik's SFP[+] implementation in Routerboards it cannot currently act as a GPON CPE due to lack of communication intelligence and may not be able to act as XG-PON CPE for the very same reason unless they add some needed communication intelligence capability.

In Canada THIS YEAR Bell are adding PONs so that 4 million additional people will have the option of selecting FTTH in their neighborhoods .. This creates tremendous opportunities for integrator like me to offer MikroTik or the like to get a good chunk [10%] of business. Hopefully MikroTik will add that needed communication intelligence capability
 
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Re: SFP RB4011

Wed Jul 10, 2019 10:09 pm

And such "intelligent" SFP modules need some support from router which router might not know how to provide. Due to this GPON by Bell might not work any better on Routerboards when they move to 10Gbps sync rate.
Thanks @mkx ...... so what you're saying is that due to MikroTik's SFP[+] implementation in Routerboards it cannot currently act as a GPON CPE due to lack of communication intelligence and may not be able to act as XG-PON CPE for the very same reason unless they add some needed communication intelligence capability.

While Mikrotik has it's share of problems with proper operation of different SFP modules (even with basic things, such as reading diagnostic values like temperature, Tx & Rx power, ...) I don't think its the problem in hardware implementation of SFP ... SFP interface is well standardized. But then it comes to intelligence of SFP modules and how they interact with ROS ... how to, e.g., program certain behaviour (e.g. how to select ATM VCI for proper ADSL performance). If ROS doesn't know about those settings, you can't use such SFP module. And same goes for GPON speciffic settings, most important being ciphering setup (I guess encryption and decryption is done by ONT SFP module). With some luck, SFP might be configured with some power-on defaults (by some other device) and such module might work in ignorant CPE afterwards. If module expects to be set-up after initialization, then it'll be a miniature heating device when plugged in an ignorant CPE.
BR,
Metod
 
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Re: SFP RB4011

Wed Jul 10, 2019 11:06 pm

While Mikrotik has it's share of problems with proper operation of different SFP modules (even with basic things, such as reading diagnostic values like temperature, Tx & Rx power, ...) I don't think its the problem in hardware implementation of SFP ... SFP interface is well standardized. But then it comes to intelligence of SFP modules and how they interact with ROS ... how to, e.g., program certain behaviour (e.g. how to select ATM VCI for proper ADSL performance). If ROS doesn't know about those settings, you can't use such SFP module. And same goes for GPON speciffic settings, most important being ciphering setup (I guess encryption and decryption is done by ONT SFP module). With some luck, SFP might be configured with some power-on defaults (by some other device) and such module might work in ignorant CPE afterwards. If module expects to be set-up after initialization, then it'll be a miniature heating device when plugged in an ignorant CPE.
The Bell GPON ONU/ONT SFP transceiver is pre programmed to communicate with their OLT And the only thing that is special is that it only will SYNC at 2.5G .... Ubiquiti have some of their SFP Transceivers sync at 2.5 and those work transparently with the Bell GPON Transceiver ... no special additional programming required .... plus Ubiquiti have auto-negotiation working .... quite frankly Other than the issue of the sync rate I do not understand the issue with MikroTik.

SFP+ interface compatibility settings with SFP optical transceivers
SFP+ interface compatibility settings with SFP optical transceivers
For MikroTik devices with SFP+ interface that support both 10G and 1G link rate following settings are needed to be set on both linked devices for required interfaces. These settings only relate when optical SFP transceivers are used. In order to get them working in 1G link rate, use the following configuration:

auto-negotiation disabled
port speed 1G
FD
Devices which SFP+ ports support 1G links:
>>>> RB4011 series - SFP+1 interface can be used in 1G mode if required. <<<<
 
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Re: SFP RB4011

Wed Jul 17, 2019 3:41 pm

SFP+ interface compatibility settings with SFP optical transceivers
SFP+ interface compatibility settings with SFP optical transceivers
For MikroTik devices with SFP+ interface that support both 10G and 1G link rate following settings are needed to be set on both linked devices for required interfaces. These settings only relate when optical SFP transceivers are used. In order to get them working in 1G link rate, use the following configuration:

auto-negotiation disabled
port speed 1G
FD
Devices which SFP+ ports support 1G links:
>>>> RB4011 series - SFP+1 interface can be used in 1G mode if required. <<<<

Following is from a PON engineer who does work for Bell:
The GPON SFP ONT supplied by Bell will act like an Ethernet SFP if you decide to put it into your own equipment.
Bell's GPON SFP ONT module will sync at 2.5Gbps in the router supplied by Bell .. It will sync at 1Gbps in everything else.
The GPON speeds are 2.488Gbps down and 1.244Gbps up -- If you want to run your own Router and use its SFP port you must use Bell's GPON SFP ONT
So in CANADA if you want to use the RB4011 and its SFP+ port or any Tik Router with SFP[+] ports the above should help -- but if it does not work then something is wrong with How RouterOS interacts with its SFP[+] modules and only a firmware fix will correct that.
 
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Re: SFP RB4011

Wed Jul 17, 2019 7:30 pm

I am on Bell 1G FTTH and got HUAWEI MA5671A SFP from Bell. 4011 can see the the module is present, but does not appear to be able to do anything else with the module, can't read vendor or any other info, no link obviously. The same module works fine in tp-link standalone media converter and in Ubiquiti ER-X-SFP router. I blame Mikrotik.

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