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Help please! Do any current PC motherboards work?

Posted: Mon May 21, 2007 4:28 pm
by dingram
I'm having a terrible time finding a decently powerful PC motherboard that is currently available on the market in the US that will recognize a DoM, has a NIC that ROS will recognize and won't lock up under heavy load. I need to know some specific models of motherboards that you have tried and work.

I'm trying to build a PtP link using NStreme2 that can sustain 80Mbps full duplex over 4 miles. I'm using Ubiquiti XR5s & 28dBi grid antennas.

I started out with Routerboard 532 boards but the link would die at about 20Mbps full duplex. So I went to 532a boards, but they failed at about 26Mbps full duplex. The forum posts I found stated that the only way to get faster throughput was to go with PC motherboards.

I found a reference on the forum to the IGoLogic motherboards working well, so I got a EPIA-MII12000G. It was able to get 80Mbps full duplex, but only for about 45 seconds before it locked up hard. In troubleshooting that I found that the Via chipset on that board had a known issue with locking up under heavy load & Intel chipset was recommended. So I got Intel motherboards with the 945 chipset, but found it wouldn't recognize my DoM and the Intel 82562 NIC wasn't recognized by ROS. So, I went back to some older HP PIII servers I had lying around & they recognized my DoM & ROS recognizes the onboard Intel Pro NICs, but they can only achieve about 5Mbps full duplex. Please help - I'm desparate to get this working right.[/b]

Posted: Mon May 21, 2007 4:35 pm
by normis
I think you need to try ROSv3 which will recognize most of the new stuff. we can't add drivers to the 2.9 branch

ROSv3 won't solve DoM issue, will it?

Posted: Mon May 21, 2007 9:26 pm
by dingram
The DoM isn't being recognized by the Intel 945 Bios as a hard drive. Changing version of ROS won't help that, will it? What feature/functionality/standard does the motherboard need to support to recognize a DoM? The Intel 945 says it supports ATA100. I contacted PQI support with that question but didn't hear back from them.

I'll try ROSv3 to see if it works with the NIC.

Posted: Tue May 22, 2007 5:30 am
by cmacneill
I'm using Via EPIA miniITX boards without any problems. The only lockup problems I had were with Senao high power wireless cards.

However, I'm not trying to use ultra high speed, 6Mbits/s is the maximum speed of my Internet connection.

Posted: Tue May 22, 2007 7:46 am
by nickb
I'd think that just about any ol' P3 or Athlon board would handle your task just fine. If not, step up to a reasonably clocked (1.8Ghz? 2.4Ghz?) P4 system.

Re: ROSv3 won't solve DoM issue, will it?

Posted: Tue May 22, 2007 9:33 am
by normis
The DoM isn't being recognized by the Intel 945 Bios as a hard drive. Changing version of ROS won't help that, will it? What feature/functionality/standard does the motherboard need to support to recognize a DoM? The Intel 945 says it supports ATA100. I contacted PQI support with that question but didn't hear back from them.

I'll try ROSv3 to see if it works with the NIC.
this is not a RouterOS problem. What is that DOM you have? Also check for BIOS upgrades.

Posted: Tue May 22, 2007 2:39 pm
by bushy
There's a Mikrotik DOM in use here since v2.7 never any trouble

Not just any hardware will work

Posted: Tue May 22, 2007 5:54 pm
by dingram
Hi guys - thanks for the feedback, but I think you're missing the point. NOT just any hardware will work. I've been through 4 motherboards now & not found 1 currently available that will work.

If found that some of my old HP P3 servers will work, but they max out at less than 10Mbps full duplex across the XR5 wireless cards whereas the same cards, same config achieved 80Mbps full duplex on the IGoLogic motherboards I got, but they locked up after 45 seconds to a minute (I'm doing NStreme2 & using 5GHz Turbo). I found a forum post that said this was due to a known issue with the VIA chipset under heavy load.

What I need feedback from you guys on is actual models of PC motherboards that I can buy today that you've had success running ROS on with a DoM (I'm using a PQI DoM, which the Intel D945GCCR motherboards don't recognize, but I don't know why - they say they are ATA100 compatible).

Thanks!

Posted: Tue May 22, 2007 10:53 pm
by jp
Via chipset based AMD-socket 462 (32bit athlon) work well for both lan and wireless. Not exactly modern, but they work fine. They are getting scarce though, and aren't as power efficient as the new 64 bit machines - I haven't tried a 64 bit machine with routerOS and wireless yet, haven't needed the speed.

I can't imagine a p3 would only do 10mbps, that seems low, perhaps there is an ethernet negotiation issue. Realtek chipset or 3com 3c905 series cards seem good for ethernet. 3com are more efficient but don't do vlan tagging well (limitation of the card). We don't have any intel servers or hardware to try, we standardize on AMD and Via computing equipment and procurve switching. Not very standardized on wireless.

JP - more info please

Posted: Tue May 22, 2007 11:18 pm
by dingram
JP, thanks for the info. Can you tell me a specific model motherboard that works for you? Are you doing NStreme2? If so, what speed have you achieved with this configuration (full duplex)?

I've found that all the boards I've got to work do well one direction at a time. It's when I try to do full duplex that all I've tried so far slow way down or even lock up (I'm testing PC - ethernet - ROS - XR5 - XR5 - ROS - ethernet - PC). I know there's a specific config out there that works under heavy load becaue I've seen posts from folks stating the throughput they're getting & some even have screen shots, but I haven't been able to find out EXACTLY what motherboard they're using.

Thanks!

Posted: Tue May 22, 2007 11:47 pm
by changeip
The newer motherboards have a white IDE connector thats labeled 'for compact flash only' - does this mobo have that?

Sam

white CF connector on MB

Posted: Wed May 23, 2007 1:01 am
by dingram
ChangeIP - None of the MBs I've tried yet have had such a connector. Do you know what IDE standard they use so I can know a MB has that by looking at the specs before I buy it?

Thanks!

Posted: Wed May 23, 2007 5:31 am
by changeip
If you dont mind spending a few hundo and you can put these boxes indoors these work excellent ... i have about 10 of them and with mikrotik working great.

http://store.computercci.com/ccr/produc ... daef39643e

or

http://store.computercci.com/ccr/produc ... daef39643e

or p3 version:

http://store.computercci.com/ccr/produc ... daef39643e

I'll see if I can find some notes about that CF slot (standard IDE) on the intel / supermicros.

Sam

P4 Samba

Posted: Wed May 23, 2007 6:01 am
by dingram
ChangeIP - have you actually used the middle one, the P4 Samba, with MikroTik? It has the onboard Intel 82562, which I haven't been able to get ROS to use.

Have you used any of those systems with a DoM? I'd really rather use flash memory rather than a HDD.

thanks for the detailed info... that is exactly the kind of info I'm needing. Note though, that these are older systems... That seems to be a strength for Mikrotik (that it will run on older systems you'd have otherwise thrown out) but also a big weakness for it (that it won't run on current generation hardware). I'm testing now with the v3 demo, but I can't get it to recognize the Intel 82562 either (see posts in the Beta forum).

Thanks!

Posted: Wed May 23, 2007 7:54 am
by changeip
Yes, I have 3 of these in production now using the onboard 10/100. Here is the output:

4 device=02:08.0 name=82801BA/BAM/CA/CAM Ethernet Controller (rev: 3>
vendor=Intel Corporation category=Ethernet controller vendor-id=
0x8086
device-id=0x2449 irq=15 memory=0xEE10B000-0xEE10BFFF io=0xC000-
0xC03F

These onboard 10/100's are the standard intel pro's I believe. Very nice for the price, plus the fans in those units are very slow and quiet. Doms work fine on this board. This shop is just down the street from me - I know the guys there somewhat. the 845GV is better than the 845G because you can use DDR ram ... and 533mhz chips.

Sam

how to make the Intel 82562 work in ROS

Posted: Wed May 23, 2007 5:28 pm
by dingram
changeip - can you give me some more details on how to make the Intel 82562 work in ROS? I've only been using ROS for a few months. I've successfully built quite a few systems trying to get to my goal of 80Mbps full duplex using NStreme2, but defintely not an expert at it.

My Intel 82562s don't even show up in ROS. They don't show up in the driver list & don't show up in the ethernet interface list. They do work because I've used them to remote boot to NetInstall (they are imbedded in these brand-new Intel D945GCCR motherboards) but once ROS loads they are useless to me.

The price is right on the P4 Sambas but I'd feel better about giving them a try if I knew what kind of throughput someone else is getting with them over NStreme2. I know there are a LOT of variables that determine throughput, but if someone else is getting anywhere near 80Mbps full duplex with them ethernet to wireless I know I can too. Do you use NStreme2? If so, can you tell me a little about your setup using the P4 Samabas and the kind of throughput you're getting?

Thanks!

Posted: Wed May 23, 2007 7:10 pm
by changeip
Im using these samba's in non-wireless applications ... all can push 100mb thru that NIC without problems. CPU usage is sitting at idle most of the time.

I would assume that they could handle the wireless requirements no problem - a P4 2.4ghz is plenty fast for wireless I would hope. If I had another minipci to pci card I could test - but I'm guessing someone here could chime in on CPU requirements.

The 945 boards have a gigabit interface correct ? Maybe not - it says 10/100 using the 82562 chip. I wonder if the NIC is now chained thru another bus thats not visible in MT or something. I'm trying to see if that board has a block diagram of the bus - to see if its now chained thru pci-e and thats the problem.

Sam

Posted: Wed May 23, 2007 7:15 pm
by changeip
ps - on the IDE dom ... are you using a cfide or compact flash thats ata-33 ? I think a lot of those older ones are and this 945 board says the following:

To use ATA-66/100 features the following items are required:
An ATA-66/100 peripheral device
An ATA-66/100 compatible cable
ATA-66/100 operating system device drivers

Possibly it's not working because the CFIDE adapter is ata-33, or the compact flash is not DMA capable ?

Sam

DoM specs

Posted: Wed May 23, 2007 7:42 pm
by dingram
changeip - I don't know much about the DoM. It is made by PQI Memory & wisp-router.com loaded ROS on it & sells it as a package (http://www.wisp-router.com/itemdesc.asp ... 28&eq=&Tp=). I can't find any specs on it on the PQI website (http://www.pqi.com.tw/product.asp?oid=140&cate1=140). Their FAQ addresses problems with the DoM on various chipsets, referring to CHS and LBA but the Intel D945 doesn't have any settings such as either of these. I haven't found any references to ata-33 or ata-66 or ata-100.

Posted: Wed May 23, 2007 8:11 pm
by changeip
If the 945 board doesn't support ATA-33 then I don't think that DoM will work.

From the specs on that dom:
Host Burst Date Transfer Rate: PIO Mode 2(8.3MB/sec).

http://kb.iu.edu/data/agnn.html

the above page shows ATA-66 doesn't start until Ultra DMA 4 and above ?

Try using a CFIDE adapter with a standard Compact Flash (Ultra II sandisk or other fast type) to see if that helps.

http://www.acscontrol.com/Index_ACS.asp ... dapter.htm
or
http://www.acscontrol.com/Index_ACS.asp ... dapter.htm

Sam

Posted: Thu May 24, 2007 9:25 am
by normis
actually you can't say that RouterOS doesn't work in this case, it's the DOM you bought that has compatibility problems. I suggest you to contact the seller and ask for advice.

Posted: Thu May 24, 2007 3:18 pm
by tgrand
Is there a posted list of recommended chipsets, processors, etc. supported currently by version3?

Every time I have tryed V3 it locks up tighter than a virgin.

Posted: Thu May 24, 2007 3:23 pm
by normis
actually v3 has more (and newer) drivers than 2.9 and it works on all our test systems. Maybe there is something specific about the hardware that you test?

ROS vs. modern hardware

Posted: Thu May 24, 2007 3:56 pm
by dingram
Normis, I agree... the DoM issue has absolutely nothing to do with ROS. However, the Intel 82562 not working in v2.9 or v3.0 is a ROS issue & having a list of known compatible motherboard models, BIOS chipsets, NICs, etc. would be very helpful as ROS doesn't apprently work with "any system". I know there is a HCL for 2.9, but it isn't detailed or complete enough.

Thanks everyone for your input!

Re: ROS vs. modern hardware

Posted: Thu May 24, 2007 4:04 pm
by normis
Normis, I agree... the DoM issue has absolutely nothing to do with ROS. However, the Intel 82562 not working in v2.9 or v3.0 is a ROS issue & having a list of known compatible motherboard models, BIOS chipsets, NICs, etc. would be very helpful as ROS doesn't apprently work with "any system". I know there is a HCL for 2.9, but it isn't detailed or complete enough.

Thanks everyone for your input!
as there is no such thing as a `driver` for each motherboard, the only way to make such list would be to buy all existing hardware and test it. I would suggest the forum users to make a new WIKI topic and add successfully working setups in there. Something like these people have made:
http://wiki.osx86project.org/wiki/index ... .4.8#Intel

Posted: Thu May 24, 2007 6:08 pm
by changeip
normis,

does MT need drivers or support for pci-e bus or bridge ? Im guessing thats the problem, older devices that have been moved from the standard pci bridge to pci-e to pci bridge probably aren't working right.

There is a probe utility in linux, I can't remember the name, but it will get you your vendor and pci IDs. You should boot linux and run this and capture the output and post here. This will allow us all to see how things are wired together, what devices are there, etc.

Sam

Posted: Fri May 25, 2007 3:28 am
by cmacneill
The command is lspci -v

Posted: Fri May 25, 2007 9:15 am
by attitude0330
I have several Supermicro Superserver's in place with a PQI DOM & ROS and had no issues at all. The servers are 5014C-MF. You can buy the board seperate it's a P8SCT Pentium 4 LGA775 Intel E7221 chipset with dual Broadcom BCM5721 Gigabit Lan ports. CPU usage average per mounth is only about 9% at 20Mbps with a 3Ghz processor.

Re: Help please! Do any current PC motherboards work?

Posted: Sun May 27, 2007 5:20 pm
by tgrand
attitude0330,

Please add that to the list located here:

http://wiki.mikrotik.com/wiki/Supported_Hardware

Re:

Posted: Sat Jun 02, 2007 8:35 am
by Borage
I would assume that they could handle the wireless requirements no problem - a P4 2.4ghz is plenty fast for wireless I would hope. If I had another minipci to pci card I could test - but I'm guessing someone here could chime in on CPU requirements.
I would say that a P4 2.4 GHz CPU is overkill. I can't imagine a P3 would perform less than 10mbps, that seems low, a Pentium 90 max out at more than 30 Mbps, even more with nstreme enabled.

Re: Help please! Do any current PC motherboards work?

Posted: Mon Jun 04, 2007 1:37 am
by dingram
Yes, every system I've tested did well one direction (Tx or Rx), even 80+ Mbps... It is when you try to do full duplex, sending and receiving at one time (Tx AND Rx), that all the hardware I've tested so far has problems. Many even run slower aggregating their Tx and Rx throughput than they did just doing one direction at a time.

Re: Help please! Do any current PC motherboards work?

Posted: Mon Jun 04, 2007 11:02 am
by Borage
Wireless connections are only half duplex. You need two wireless cards in both direction to get full duplex.

Re: Help please! Do any current PC motherboards work?

Posted: Mon Jun 04, 2007 11:50 pm
by dingram
Referring back to my original post, I'm using NStreme2, which uses two wireless radios on each end, one for send & one for receive.

Re: Help please! Do any current PC motherboards work?

Posted: Tue Jun 05, 2007 12:10 pm
by Borage
Maybe you should edit your first post and write that you are trying to build a wireless link using Nstreme with two radios. I'm still surprised that you can't get more than 10 Mbps throughput. I tried without using Nstreme with a single radio, and I got an average Tx/Rx rate of 15/15 Mbps. The limit in my case is either the CPU power, or my wireless cards. A newer card from the same manufactor gave me twice as fast performance on a more powerful computer.

Re: Help please! Do any current PC motherboards work?

Posted: Tue Jun 05, 2007 12:21 pm
by Hellbound
there is a setting for some mainboard that is called "enhanced IDE" which has to be disabled to allow DoM or CF-to-IDE adapters work fine.

I had to play for half an hour to find that.

good luck

Re: Help please! Do any current PC motherboards work?

Posted: Tue Jun 05, 2007 2:18 pm
by ekkas
We've been using Gigabyte motherboards for ome time now with NStreme, working well. (8GIM667k?) And other newer models have been performing wellon client gaming PCs, so if I were you, I'd have a look at them... Just a suggestion. I haven't used NStreme2 or pushed it to the limit though.