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haakonn
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Posts: 2
Joined: Fri Sep 25, 2020 11:11 pm

Issues with NDI video traffic across CRS354 and CRS312

Fri Sep 25, 2020 11:32 pm

Hi,

Do anyone have any inputs on why I could be having this problem?

We are building a NDI based studio center with 3 studios. And have bought mikrotik switches for 8000$ to have as the backbone for this center, with 40gbit/s fiber uplink in a ring of 48p poe switches, etc.

The problem is that the switches seem to start to send data in bursts, or if I shoud believe my wireshark dump, also duplicate packets across switches.

If I am connected with my computer, or a Newtek NDI Spark Plus NDI to HDMI converter to the same switch (CRS312) as the newtek mixer, the video flows great, and there is no problems.
The bridge is hardware offloaded on both switches, all ports are hardware offloaded. The ports in question is on vlan 42, and between the switches, trunk is set up, where 42 is one of the vlans that is transferred between the switches.

Traffic with small packets flow great. Such as audio over DANTE, etc. No issues. But big packet data like NDI is having problems when each stream is using > 150mbit/s. NDI is flowing via TCP at this time, because UDP packets is behaving even worse and don't work at all. The newtek mixer is connected via 10gbit copper, and at the time, the switches are connected with a 10GBit/s copper pigtail (MO-S+DA001), but I have also tried with 1gigabit copper sfp's from mikrotik, and it does nothing to help.

I am running latest stable on both switches. But I have tried testing release too. But if anything it was worse with testing.

I have a wireshark pcap if anyone wants to look at it. I feel like I have tested everything. And at this state. Any normal dumb switch would have worked better than our mikrotik switches. So we hope we haven't bought a bunch of scrap metal :( We have enjoyed using RB750 for years, and the CRS switches for routing. And love using mikrotik in that regards. But at this time, we are having big issues with the CRS312 and CRS354 switches working together as normal switches with a little bit of VLAN tagging.

Here is the config on the CRS312, and the config is the same on the CRS354 switches, just with more ports and trunk ports:
/export hide-sensitive
# sep/25/2020 22:28:17 by RouterOS 6.47.4
# software id = S53Z-P5GU
#
# model = CRS312-4C+8XG
# serial number = AE060B1321C4
/interface bridge
add igmp-snooping=yes mtu=1500 name=main-bridge pvid=30 vlan-filtering=yes
/interface ethernet
set [ find default-name=combo1 ] name=ether9-sfpp1
set [ find default-name=combo2 ] name=ether10-sfpp2
set [ find default-name=combo3 ] name=ether11-sfpp3
set [ find default-name=combo4 ] advertise=10M-half,10M-full,100M-half,100M-full,1000M-half,1000M-full,2500M-full,5000M-full,10000M-full name=ether12-sfpp4
set [ find default-name=ether9 ] name=etherMGMT
/interface wireless security-profiles
set [ find default=yes ] supplicant-identity=MikroTik
/ip hotspot profile
set [ find default=yes ] html-directory=flash/hotspot
/user group
set full policy=local,telnet,ssh,ftp,reboot,read,write,policy,test,winbox,password,web,sniff,sensitive,api,romon,dude,tikapp
/interface bridge port
add bridge=main-bridge interface=ether9-sfpp1 pvid=41
add bridge=main-bridge interface=ether10-sfpp2 pvid=41
add bridge=main-bridge interface=ether11-sfpp3 pvid=30
add bridge=main-bridge interface=ether12-sfpp4 pvid=30
add bridge=main-bridge interface=etherMGMT pvid=30
add bridge=main-bridge interface=ether1 pvid=42
add bridge=main-bridge interface=ether2 pvid=42
add bridge=main-bridge interface=ether3 pvid=42
add bridge=main-bridge interface=ether4 pvid=41
add bridge=main-bridge interface=ether5 pvid=41
add bridge=main-bridge interface=ether6 pvid=42
add bridge=main-bridge interface=ether7 pvid=42
add bridge=main-bridge interface=ether8 pvid=42
/ip neighbor discovery-settings
set discover-interface-list=!dynamic
/interface bridge vlan
add bridge=main-bridge comment=MANAGEMENT untagged=etherMGMT vlan-ids=30
add bridge=main-bridge comment=HOST tagged=ether9-sfpp1,ether10-sfpp2,ether11-sfpp3,ether12-sfpp4 vlan-ids=41
add bridge=main-bridge comment=NDI tagged=ether9-sfpp1,ether10-sfpp2,ether11-sfpp3,ether12-sfpp4 vlan-ids=42
add bridge=main-bridge comment=DANTE tagged=ether9-sfpp1,ether10-sfpp2,ether11-sfpp3,ether12-sfpp4 vlan-ids=43
add bridge=main-bridge comment=AES67 tagged=ether9-sfpp1,ether10-sfpp2,ether11-sfpp3,ether12-sfpp4 vlan-ids=44
add bridge=main-bridge comment=COM tagged=ether9-sfpp1,ether10-sfpp2,ether11-sfpp3,ether12-sfpp4 vlan-ids=45
add bridge=main-bridge comment=KVM tagged=ether9-sfpp1,ether10-sfpp2,ether11-sfpp3,ether12-sfpp4 vlan-ids=46
add bridge=main-bridge comment=CONTROL tagged=ether9-sfpp1,ether10-sfpp2,ether11-sfpp3,ether12-sfpp4 vlan-ids=47
add bridge=main-bridge comment=GUEST tagged=ether9-sfpp1,ether10-sfpp2,ether11-sfpp3,ether12-sfpp4 vlan-ids=48
add bridge=main-bridge comment=OSSWAN tagged=ether9-sfpp1,ether10-sfpp2,ether11-sfpp3,ether12-sfpp4 vlan-ids=40
add bridge=main-bridge comment=ARTNET tagged=ether9-sfpp1,ether10-sfpp2,ether11-sfpp3,ether12-sfpp4 vlan-ids=49
/ip address
add address=10.22.2.103/24 interface=main-bridge network=10.22.2.0
/ip dns
set servers=1.1.1.1
/ip route
add distance=1 gateway=10.22.2.1
/system clock
set time-zone-name=Europe/Oslo
/system identity
set name=SHP4.5.0-SW2
/system routerboard settings
set boot-os=router-os
 
cadillcac
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Posts: 1
Joined: Wed Nov 11, 2020 9:02 am

Re: Issues with NDI video traffic across CRS354 and CRS312

Wed Nov 11, 2020 9:04 am

Well I am glad I found this...Was about to spec our new project with a mikrotik backbone. Any news on this?
 
haakonn
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Posts: 2
Joined: Fri Sep 25, 2020 11:11 pm

Re: Issues with NDI video traffic across CRS354 and CRS312

Thu Nov 12, 2020 6:49 pm

Well I am glad I found this...Was about to spec our new project with a mikrotik backbone. Any news on this?
Yes, Mikrotik answered and said that the ports have "a shallow buffer of 24mbit". So basically, they are useless for converting 10Gbit traffic to 1Gbit. They won't even handle 100mbit from a 10G port to a 1G port, if the packets are sent in bursts, like you will get from a computer with 10Gbit interface.

We bought a bunch of old expired Juniper switches on ebay, and suddenly everything works as expected.
 
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andkar
newbie
Posts: 47
Joined: Tue Aug 11, 2020 9:20 pm

Re: Issues with NDI video traffic across CRS354 and CRS312

Thu Nov 12, 2020 10:53 pm

How large buffers on the Juniper switches you got?
Some switch buffer numbers listed: https://people.ucsc.edu/~warner/buffer.html
 
paoloneita
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Posts: 6
Joined: Fri Jul 27, 2018 4:11 pm

Re: Issues with NDI video traffic across CRS354 and CRS312

Sun Dec 20, 2020 10:27 am

Hello @haakonn I'm very intrested in your post beacause I'm planning a new installation and have to choose switch.
I was intrested in CRS328-24P-4S+RM and CRS324 with PoE for Camera but after your post I break my selection.
Wich is your experience?
Wich kind of switch you have selected?

My best regards
 
ruudboon
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Posts: 2
Joined: Fri Jan 15, 2021 8:20 pm

Re: Issues with NDI video traffic across CRS354 and CRS312

Fri Jan 15, 2021 8:21 pm

Did you solved it or did you moved to a different switch? (And which one?)
Last edited by ruudboon on Thu Apr 08, 2021 9:29 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
TomsT
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Joined: Fri Feb 28, 2020 5:08 pm

Re: Issues with NDI video traffic across CRS354 and CRS312

Mon Mar 15, 2021 12:43 pm

Seeing the same issues here. Did you solved it or did you moved to a different switch? (And which one?)
There still is no fix for that.
I use CRS326-24G-2S+RM and CRS328-24P-4S+RM and no problems
 
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aquarat
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Joined: Fri Sep 28, 2012 1:13 am
Location: Cape Town, South Africa
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Re: Issues with NDI video traffic across CRS354 and CRS312

Wed Mar 31, 2021 6:25 pm

Hi

I've been trying to use a CRS305 connected to a CRS328 with NDI and Dante. The CRS305 is connected to the CRS328 via a Ubiquity 10 GbE GBIC module (fibre).

My mixing machines are connected on 10GbE (MIkrotik RJ45 GBIC) via very short CAT6 cable to the CRS305 and all the NDI sources are connected to the CRS328 via gigabit cabling (CAT6, very short cable runs).

I don't know how else to put it, but nothing is ever quite "right". Dante works beautifully, but NDI in TCP and UDP unicast modes gives endless problems. If the mixing machine(s) are only receiving from ~4 NDI sources @ 100 mbit/sec, they always stutter every few seconds. The canvas resolution and frame rates are all the same across everything. The problem happens on both vMix and OBS. Rendering times in the mixing apps are well below the frame rate interval (33.3ms for frame rate vs 9ms to render a frame).

If I turn on NDI output on the mixing machines or try and consume from NDI Scan Converter running on the CRS305 then all hell breaks loose and all bets are off. Problem doesn't occur if I use a hardware encoder instead of NDI Scan Converter. All bets are off means rendering time per frame oscillates between 9ms and 15ms. Stuttering gets much worse across all feeds.

If I try and "talk back" to the encoders using an integrated NDI-based comms system, the operators here a stuttering audio signal but I can hear the operators just fine.

I'm now wondering if I need to try a different switch...

Also, if you enable IGMP snooping and use multicast the CRS328's CPU maxes out so severely that it becomes unresponsive and everything almost stops. IGMP Snooping + multicast is unusable.

If I run iperf3 between the encoders and the mixing machines I get about 500 mbit/sec from each encoder to the mixing machine, across 4 encoders (around 2.1 gigabit/sec).

I've noticed that if I flood ping an encoder from the router, the pings timeout at regular intervals a few seconds apart. This period seems to be the same length as the interval between stutters in the feeds.

Can anyone share their insights? If you had NDI issues with Mikrotik switches, how did you fix them? Do I just need to buy a fancier switch? "just"
I'm really trying to avoid buying a Ubi switch.

Thanks :)

Bonus: The Mikrotik 10GbE modules in the CRS305 overheat if they're set to sync at 10 gigabit. If I reduce the rate to 5 gigabit they don't overheat.
 
ruudboon
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Joined: Fri Jan 15, 2021 8:20 pm

Re: Issues with NDI video traffic across CRS354 and CRS312

Sat Apr 03, 2021 10:10 am

Seeing some issues with NDI as well.
I got
- 2x CSS326-24G-2S+RM
- 1x CRS312-4C+8XG-RM
- 1 x CRS328-24P-4S+RM

The problem with 10gbit -> 1gbit is there but seeing some stability issues from 1gbit to 1gbit as well.
Mainly on the poe one.
When bundling the uplink port to 2x 10gbit it works only for a few minutes.

In general it looks really unstable when doing anything with NDI. I'm running the lastest SwitchOS
 
fringhut
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Joined: Tue Apr 13, 2021 7:14 pm

Re: Issues with NDI video traffic across CRS354 and CRS312

Tue Apr 13, 2021 7:17 pm

40gbit ring Topology= Brodcast Strom
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broadcast_storm

Please use RSTP or open the Ring to Test.

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