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MUM for Australia - any planning?

Posted: Mon Oct 15, 2007 2:04 pm
by kvan64
I was wondering if there is one in the near future?

Re: MUM for Australia - any planning?

Posted: Tue Oct 16, 2007 3:31 am
by Equis
I bring this up every 6 months or so but no luck yet.

I think not enough people would go.

Re: MUM for Australia - any planning?

Posted: Tue Oct 16, 2007 9:43 am
by kvan64
That's shame! I believe that there are a lot of MT custumers in OZ and our geographical location is not bad. If There is MUM in Australia, I think it would attract heaps of MT custumers from neighbouring countries as well. Considering the fact that there is a great deal of foreign tourists travelling to Australia in recent years. This would give them an excuse to travel too :)

Re: MUM for Australia - any planning?

Posted: Tue Oct 16, 2007 10:51 am
by normis
look at this topic for example. you two are the only ones showing interest :(

Re: MUM for Australia - any planning?

Posted: Tue Oct 16, 2007 11:45 am
by ashish
Normis,
I really want to attend MUM as well as trainning, But if it is near to India coz, it is very difficult to get the VISA outside asian country...

Any Planning for INDIA. Our Company is ready to organize each and every things for you

Re: MUM for Australia - any planning?

Posted: Tue Oct 16, 2007 11:50 am
by normis
Normis,
I really want to attend MUM as well as trainning, But if it is near to India coz, it is very difficult to get the VISA outside asian country...

Any Planning for INDIA. Our Company is ready to organize each and every things for you
How about going to Egypt? Is it hard to go to Egypt MUM from India?

Re: MUM for Australia - any planning?

Posted: Tue Oct 16, 2007 12:10 pm
by janisk
btw: Charm El Sheik is in Asia ;)

Re: MUM for Australia - any planning?

Posted: Tue Oct 16, 2007 12:34 pm
by SweetSunday
If Australia isn't big/important enough for Mikrotik to grace it with its presence what chance do we Kiwis have?

Not that I'd go even if they held a MUM in Auckland - awful place! And how many Kiwi's can afford to visit Queenstown these days?

Personally I'd settle for good, up-to-date documentation and comprehensive 'How-To's' over any number of MUMs - battling jet-lag and Montezuma's revenge while trying to follow a complex one-time presentation on advanced routing or the subleties of bandwidth management isn't the way I'd choose to learn my trade.

Re: MUM for Australia - any planning?

Posted: Tue Oct 16, 2007 1:26 pm
by tully
What do you think about Bali. Isn't it easy for Australians and Kiwis to get there?

Re: MUM for Australia - any planning?

Posted: Tue Oct 16, 2007 9:59 pm
by SweetSunday
What do you think about Bali. Isn't it easy for Australians and Kiwis to get there?
Depends who's paying for the trip.

If, as may be, you lived in the States and your wife came home one day with a brand-new Fisher & Paykel washing-machine with a control panel like something out of a USAF fighter cockpit, and the news that the only way to learn how to use it was to attend a training course in New Zealand would you say happily, "Sure, here you are Honey," and hand over the air-fare and four day's accommodation?

I've nothing against MUM's - I'm sure they're very useful and informative, and great fun when the costs are coming out of your company's budget (and hence ultimately your customer's pockets). But I would argue that, as seems to be the case, they should not stand in substitution for widely-available, comprehensive, up-to-date information about the product one is trying to use for one's business!

Re: MUM for Australia - any planning?

Posted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 2:30 am
by Equis
I'd go to Bali :-)

Re: MUM for Australia - any planning?

Posted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 11:34 am
by kvan64
Bali? uhmmm... don't get me wrong. I like the attractions but after the bombing, I am a bit ....chiken out :(

Re: MUM for Australia - any planning?

Posted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 11:41 am
by janisk
i just wanted to point out, that MT is not substituting manual with MUM - these are completely different things. While in manual you can read how to use on or another feature in MUM you can actually see how people are using those features together in a real environment, what challenges they have overcome and what knowledge had acquired while doing that.

Re: MUM for Australia - any planning?

Posted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 10:45 pm
by SweetSunday
i just wanted to point out, that MT is not substituting manual with MUM - these are completely different things. While in manual you can read how to use on or another feature in MUM you can actually see how people are using those features together in a real environment, what challenges they have overcome and what knowledge had acquired while doing that.
Where in the MT manual do I find out about 'blink', which has appeared in the RouterOS 3.0rc menu? Or about 'calea', whatever that is that demands a package to itself? I discovered quite by accident that there is a console command for 'Pick' which doesn't get a mention in the manual and had to work out for myself the syntax for it. How many other commands I would find very useful are not mentioned in the manual, and therefore not available to me? Currently I've having to spend hours almost reverse-engineering User-Manager in order to find out how to make it work for me because all MT has put out on it is little more than a 'Quick start guide.'

Mikrotik gear was recommended to us for our network when I knew nothing about what was available and I've no problem with the gear - it's first-rate stuff that has performed exceptionally well - but a great deal of what I've learned, and had to do to set it up and get it to work has come from the on-line manuals, how-tos and support information put up by Cisco, Linksys, Netgear etc because Mikrotik tech. staff are too busy preparing power-point presentations for and swanning off to MUMs in exotic places to post this kind of thing for (no-doubt the many) Mikrotik users who don't have the time and/or resources to hob-nob with them there and be inducted into RouterOS's little secrets.

Re: MUM for Australia - any planning?

Posted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 11:09 pm
by stephenpatrick
Not quite fair IMHO -

3.0RC is not yet in "release" status: one has to accept that status - caveat emptor - and just like previously with 2.9, there was no real online documentation until release version was out. Quite right: MT should put the effort into making the code stable, rather than writing manuals for non-release software versions.

Also, MT business model depends on user-input into support forums like this to solve user questions/problems and user-input Wiki to create more complete documentation and "how -to's". Nothing wrong with that - there are some real experts online here.
Also note some MT OEMS (bang drum, including us </advert> :-) often create their own detailed documentation "how-to's" for key tasks in PDF and also a wide range of pre-programmed config scripts to return/setup products to known states - makes sense for our business to do so.

I'd say a combination of wiki (go on, share your knowledge, you know you want to) and OEM's writing helpful documentation for their solutions is the essential ingredient here.

Comments welcome -

Regards

Re: MUM for Australia - any planning?

Posted: Thu Oct 18, 2007 1:51 am
by SweetSunday
Not quite fair IMHO -

3.0RC is not yet in "release" status: one has to accept that status - caveat emptor - and just like previously with 2.9, there was no real online documentation until release version was out. Quite right: MT should put the effort into making the code stable, rather than writing manuals for non-release software versions.
Yes, you're right. But the only reason I'm even trying 3.0RC is because a bug in 2.9 means I can't use that, and another bug in 3.0 means I can't use that either - if they are bugs and not
'undocumented features'.
Also, MT business model depends on user-input into support forums like this to solve user questions/problems and user-input Wiki to create more complete documentation and "how -to's". Nothing wrong with that - there are some real experts online here.
Yes, and I'm very grateful to them for the time and tolerance they are prepared to give non-professionals like me. But I would suggest forums are places for experts to get together to discuss the arcane and the esoteric, and to work out ways to boldly go where the developers never intended their software to venture. Many (most?) of the threads on this forum are from folk appealing with help re fundamentals which IMHO should be available in the manual/documentation.

There are also dangers in relying on third-party advice from strangers. Even discounting the mischievious or downright malicious, well-meaning but wrong advice gained from a forum could be disastrous.
Also note some MT OEMS (bang drum, including us </advert> :-) often create their own detailed documentation "how-to's" for key tasks in PDF and also a wide range of pre-programmed config scripts to return/setup products to known states - makes sense for our business to do so.
Exactly my point. Surely you should only have to do such things where you're adapting the software for non-standard applications. If you're having to do it for 'key' tasks you're doing MT's job for it, acting and unpaid.
I'd say a combination of wiki (go on, share your knowledge, you know you want to) and OEM's writing helpful documentation for their solutions is the essential ingredient here.
Everything you say is true, but I'm arguing that the principle onus for describing the functionality and implementation of their product is with MT, with user input the cream on the bun. By shifting the onus as you suggest you're giving MT a free ride.

I'm only beating my own drum about this because I think its supporting documentation is by far the weakest aspect of MT's offering and if they could get that right it would be unbeatable. And to the extent (if at all) that MUM's contribute to that weakness (and MT's 'we've built a better mousetrap' approach) I deplore them.
Comments welcome -

Regards

Re: MUM for Australia - any planning?

Posted: Thu Oct 18, 2007 2:46 am
by Equis
IMHO

For the price we pay for this software I don't mind having to do a bit of reasearch with others, infact it make me sharper.

As for a bug in 2.9 that stop someone using it, MT will fix that, just not add more features :-)

Re: MUM for Australia - any planning?

Posted: Thu Oct 18, 2007 11:05 am
by janisk
If you really write something that is not in the manual and not in the wiki already and post it in wiki - you get the license for it, if article is really good even lvl 6 license is for grabs :)

edit:

but that is not the point - we are working on the manual for 3.0 and this is not yet available publicly, because 3.0 is not released yet.

Re: MUM for Australia - any planning?

Posted: Thu Oct 18, 2007 12:04 pm
by macgaiver
...Many (most?) of the threads on this forum are from folk appealing with help re fundamentals which IMHO should be available in the manual/documentation....
Talking about fundamentals - have you ever read "TCP/IP basics" book from covet-to-cover all 700 pages???? (and believe me in every 30 pages of that book there are at least some very usefull information)

All those are fundamentals. and it is only for one protocol.

Now let us imagine the size of fundamental manual off all the features???

Re: MUM for Australia - any planning?

Posted: Thu Oct 18, 2007 12:09 pm
by normis
routers are not for computer beginners. you should remember that users of routers are educated computer network administrators.

Re: MUM for Australia - any planning?

Posted: Thu Oct 18, 2007 9:17 pm
by BrianHiggins
And to the extent (if at all) that MUM's contribute to that weakness (and MT's 'we've built a better mousetrap' approach) I deplore them.
clearly you have a mis-conception of what the purpose of the MUM's are. They are a bi-directional feedback oportunity and open forum for new ideas and suggestions for both the users and MikroTik to develop new concepts, tools and methodologies. MikroTik only publish's a very small amount of information at the MUM. 98% of all information exchanged at MUM is between the attendee's of the conference, not the hosts. Think of MUM as a in-person live version of this forum, where we are helping each other out and once in a while Normis, Janisk, or Uldis chime in and give input, or take input that leads to improvments and new features.

I personally feel that MUM is a wonderful event, I have been to both of the US MUM's, and encourage everyone that is able to attend future events, as they have been highly valuable experiences, and very fun events to attend.
users of routers are educated computer network administrators.
at least we hope they are :wink:

Re: MUM for Australia - any planning?

Posted: Fri Oct 19, 2007 12:44 am
by SweetSunday
routers are not for computer beginners. you should remember that users of routers are educated computer network administrators.
No. This is MT deciding unilaterally that 'their' routers are only for educated network administrators, and they're gonna keep it that way.

IBM and the Unix crew chose to think that computers were only, and would always only be, for trained specialists. Then along came Bill Gates and Atari et al who chose to make computers available to everyone. Where are IBM and the Unix crew now? Still chugging along their predestinate groove while the computers in everyone's homes are built by Dell, and HP and running Windows.

Hey guys, eighteen months ago I knew nothing about wireless networking and very little about IP networking in general. Now I'm admin of a small wireless network bringing tolerable internet to a small and remote rural community in New Zealand. And it's working. It's pretty basic but it's as sophisticated as it needs to be for us. But there aren't enough 'educated computer network administrators' in New Zealand to set up and run networks like ours for a tenth of the small, remote, rural communities that could benefit from them, and even if there were the cost of hiring them would be prohibitively expensive. Our network serves twelve families, which is everyone in the bay! Much as I'd love for them to stand me a trip to a MUM in Egypt, it isn't really on.

Starting out with a blank sheet of paper we perused the web and took advice and came away with the impression that Mikrotik was the Rolls-Royce of routers, and as we wanted reliability ("Do it once and do it right") we chose Mikrotik despite the fact that it's very expensive down here.

And now we have a guy from Mikrotik telling us that we shouldn't have bought Miktotik. OK, Normis. Who's gear should we have bought instead of Mikrotik? Why don't you put a disclaimer on your web-pages? "Unless you're an educated computer network administrator don't buy Mikrotik, buy Cisco or Linksys or, hey, anybody else's product but ours 'cos it isn't for you?"

Based in our little success (which made the rural news media) small rural communities all over New Zealand which are 'uneconomic' for the established WISPs to cover are contacting me and asking how we did it and looking to do it for themselves, 'cos no-one else is going to. Hey, Normis, do you want me to tell them to steer clear of Mikrotik gear at all costs?

Mikrotik hardware is very, very good. Because I'm not an educated computer network administrator it had been badly handled but despite that it has come through a foul winter unscathed. It has given us no problems at all. Sure we don't make use of 90% of the bells and whistles RouterOS offers. We don't need them. We need reliability in adverse conditions and Mikrotik has delivered.

But the MT manual isn't a user's manual. It's a technical manual. It's like giving a 13-year-old boy a copy of Grey's 'Anatomy' and telling him it contains all he'll ever need to know about girls. You need a user's manual to tell you what can be done and how to do it, and a technical manual to tell you how it's done, if you need to know.

Normis is right. MT currently is for experts. But that's MT's choice. It needn't be and by taking this 'not for the plebs' approach MT is turning its nose up at a very large potential market. Which is a pity, 'cos all it needs is a couple of dedicated technical writers with a sense of humour ("Routing for Dummies", anyone?) and there could be a RouterBoard on every roof beyond the reach of DSL.

IMHO, anyway.

Re: MUM for Australia - any planning?

Posted: Fri Oct 19, 2007 5:45 am
by Makrotik
routers are not for computer beginners. you should remember that users of routers are educated computer network administrators.
I hope he meant "qualified" or "trained" as "educated" is a BIG word!

Re: MUM for Australia - any planning?

Posted: Fri Oct 19, 2007 7:41 am
by BrianHiggins
No. This is MT deciding unilaterally that 'their' routers are only for educated network administrators, and they're gonna keep it that way.
You are under the assumption that MikroTik produces consumer grade systems, and I beleive that is the root of all your confusion and frustration. If MikroTik wanted to produce a product that competes in the same market space as Linksys or DLink, they would have made a web based wizard that configures all 75 menu options they would ever include in the router, and they would also be out of business. Their systems compete with Cisco, Watchguard, SonicWall, Proxim (is it really fair of me to consider it in the same class as MikroTik??), Tranzeo (again, hardly in the same class), and other simliar vendors that are designed to work in the medium business to small enterprise class networks.

Do you really think that Cisco started out with very step by step hand holding simple tutorials on how to do every single feature they include (do you really think they have that now?)

MikroTik is a relativly young and very small company compared to Cisco/Linksys or any of the other names you keep throwing out there. What they have produced rivals (and often beats) the "worlds best" products developed by the largest and most accecpted (I felt respected was too strong of a word to use) technology company in the world can sell you, and at a fraction of the cost, and you are complaining that they should spend more time on documentation as opposed to product development?

If you want to help make the documentation better, either:

A.)offer to pay 3 times more money then they are charging to help pay for that technical writer
B.)write and contribute some documentation yourself as suggested
C.)encourage other people you know to use MikroTik, as the more sales they get, the more people they can hire, and eventually they will be able tohire a dedicated technical writing person / department

If you do not like / agree with any of the three above options, please do not write another half page allegory on why you feel the 60's and hippie movment is still alive in you, and please just agree to disagree with essentially everyone else on the forum and move on.

Re: MUM for Australia - any planning?

Posted: Fri Oct 19, 2007 9:56 am
by normis
routers are not for computer beginners. you should remember that users of routers are educated computer network administrators.
I hope he meant "qualified" or "trained" as "educated" is a BIG word!
yes. i mean you can't have a gamer run your networks. your business depends on it.

Re: MUM for Australia - any planning?

Posted: Sun Oct 21, 2007 1:15 pm
by kvan64
routers are not for computer beginners. you should remember that users of routers are educated computer network administrators.
I hope he meant "qualified" or "trained" as "educated" is a BIG word!
I think that he meant for "experts". MT probably increase their sales ten folds if routerOS was easier to use. RouterOS is one of the best of its kind out there. It is full of features but I think > 80% of people would use it for hotspot. If the hotspot features such a speed throttling, and credit card payments can be setup easily, a lot people would be willing to pay much more for the license. The new guy in my neighborhood just set up his hotspot using Firstspot and it only took him 10 minutes to configure everything including what mentioned above. I would pay the level 6 price for level 5 license if these options can be setup easily in MT.
Having said that, I feel that MT routerOS is like a "do it yourselves" kit and I consider myself as a hobbist. I have spent thousands and thousands on MT and related gears and hardly made a living on them but I find it fun to do (lucky that I have a professional job in an entirely different area!). I have also learned a lot in the last several months and I found this forum so helpful. It's not a big deal for me if MUM will never be availble here in OZ but I think I would go if there is one. I was just asking!

Re: MUM for Australia - any planning?

Posted: Mon Oct 22, 2007 9:55 am
by janisk
the thing is - if you know what means what in routeros you can go and configure everything else - just get used to different syntax but principles are the same - networking - if you know what you are doing on your network you have no problems to bring your network from any other network knowledge based configuration to RouterOS and vice versa.

Re: MUM for Australia - any planning?

Posted: Mon Oct 22, 2007 10:21 am
by normis
no, what I meant is - you have to know what's an IP address to use RouterOS. many people expect us to make TCP/IP beginner related manuals.

Re: MUM for Australia - any planning?

Posted: Mon Oct 22, 2007 11:36 am
by jorj
I want only one thing.
I am using MT since 2.7.
I read all the manuals from 2.8 till now.
I only wish that when a new option appears, it could be documented, some way. Here, in the forum, or else.
Recent examples are the wireless-crd...... and the 2.9.45 change to regulatory domains. It's frustrating to know you done all ok, and to find out that something is not working well, because the sintax or something has changed.
The 2.9 manual seems quite good to me. Wish that the 3.x manual be at least the same. Or, for me, it could be in a very simple way better: a few more example configs. And also a better scripting manual.
( and if MT it's going to be another linksys or "no-name" kind of router in configuration, well....... i'll just stop using it. )

In the rest, it's a very complex, flexible and good job.
Keep up the good work.

Re: MUM for Australia - any planning?

Posted: Mon Oct 22, 2007 4:58 pm
by BrianHiggins
I only wish that when a new option appears, it could be documented, some way. Here, in the forum, or else.
this would be nice, it should be included with the change log, AND in a recent changes section of the manual that indicates any changes in the last 5 releases, it was documented for all command additions, removals and syntax changes.

Re: MUM for Australia - any planning?

Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 10:04 am
by nz_monkey
SweetSunday, I too am in New Zealand and have been working in the industry for around 10 years now. As far as outdoor wireless is concerned I have worked with:

Proxim
Trango
Cisco
Terabeam/HXI
Motorola Canopy

In New Zealand, Samoa and Fiji.

While Mikrotik has it's flaws, it offers a VERY good solution, at a price significantly lower than any product from the above vendors. The difference is that it has a myriad more options, is more flexible and as such requires more technical knowledge.

As an example of how much cheaper Mikrotik is, a similar solution to what you have with Proxim Tsunami MP.11 using a 5054-R base station, and 5054-SU-R Subscriber units you would be looking in the vicinity of NZ$27600 just for the equipment.

Maybe, a regional area on this site would be good. Then all Oceanic users of Mikrotik can communicate with each other and discuss the regulatory environment and local requirements and conditions.

Re: MUM for Australia - any planning?

Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 10:23 am
by normis
preliminary MUM list for 2008 (can still change):

Krakow, Poland, February 28-29, MUM
India, April, MUM
Chicago, IL, US, May 15-16, MUM
Bali, Indonesia, June, MUM
Florianopolis, Brazil, October, MUM
South Africa, November, MUM

Re: MUM for Australia - any planning?

Posted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 11:18 am
by Equis
Ohhhh

Bali, Indonesia, June, MUM


:-) :-) :-) :-)

Re: MUM for Australia - any planning?

Posted: Sun Jan 20, 2008 7:32 am
by nz_monkey
Bali, nice that would make a good holiday.

Hopefully I can sneak away to this without anyone at work noticing.

Re: MUM for Australia - any planning?

Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2008 3:56 pm
by anontrol
[quote="tully"]What do you think about Bali. Isn't it easy for Australians and Kiwis to get there?[/quote]

Bali is OK... it's been a few years since I've been there, but if I recall, the south part of the island is a hole (or paradise, depending on what you're looking for in life). If I wanted to provide the best experience, I'd probably choose a hotel/conference location well north of Denpasar (like on the other side of the island north).

Cairns or Brisbane would be nice. Darwin or Townsville less so. Perth/Sydney/Melbourne are a little far.

Vanuatu might be an interesting location for pac-rim/micronesia folks.

If you wanted to get extravagant, the Maldives (technically part of India) strike me as a good place to mix business with pleasure.

Re: MUM for Australia - any planning?

Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2008 4:12 pm
by normis
What do you think about Bali. Isn't it easy for Australians and Kiwis to get there?
Bali is OK... it's been a few years since I've been there, but if I recall, the south part of the island is a hole (or paradise, depending on what you're looking for in life). If I wanted to provide the best experience, I'd probably choose a hotel/conference location well north of Denpasar (like on the other side of the island north).

Cairns or Brisbane would be nice. Darwin or Townsville less so. Perth/Sydney/Melbourne are a little far.
define "hole" from your point of view??

Re: MUM for Australia - any planning?

Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2008 4:23 pm
by anontrol
[quote]define "hole" from your point of view??[/quote]

A "hole" would be a place where Russians get killed on the beach in broad daylight, Australians get blown up in a club, corrupt cops snatch $10 at time for driving your scooter "wrong", where street vendors sell sandals that turn your feet what ever color the sandals happen to be, where "girls" from Java embarrass people out of their money, where your driver will offer to take you to "see a girl" on the way to the airport and any drug you want can be brought on the beach at any time of the day... but more importantly, a "hole" is where the surfing sucks.

It's probably changed in the years since I was there, but I can't imagine that it's changed that much.

Re: MUM for Australia - any planning?

Posted: Wed Jan 23, 2008 4:41 pm
by normis
"tourist hole" then, I get the gist

Re: MUM for Australia - any planning?

Posted: Sat Jan 26, 2008 5:56 am
by raktim
it's very difficult to get visa out side of Asia. i think it will helpful for us, if u will make it near INDIA or Bangladesh.