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Yet another change which doesn't appear in the change log.

Wed Mar 10, 2010 12:33 pm

Some time ago I wrote the script:

http://wiki.mikrotik.com/wiki/A_script_ ... ou_started

Which a lot of people are using both to put a basic configuration on their router and also to learn about ROS.

Last night a colleague mentioned that the script doesn't work for him.

After much digging around and debugging, it turns out that the command:
/ip dns set primary-dns=x.x.x.x secondary-dns=y.y.y.y
has been removed from ROS 4.6 which now uses:
/ip dns set servers=x.x.x.x,y.y.y.y
instead.

'servers=' isn't an option in 4.5 and 'primary-dns'/'secondary-dns' aren't options in 4.6

I am rather angry about this.

Yet again, MT have removed a working feature without documenting it in the change log.

It happened with IPv6 over PPPoE, it happened with SSH tunneling, but this is perhaps the worst example.

MT claim that they don't release code to the community because their keeping it to themselves results in a more stable and better supported product. LOL.

How are we expected to provide a professional and reliable service when MT keep changing the rules of the game.

Please, please, please can we have full and complete change logs?

Now I'd better go and change that script on the wiki so it works with all versions.
Nicholas Barnes BSc(hons)
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Re: Yet another change which doesn't appear in the change log.

Wed Mar 10, 2010 1:30 pm

But why was this change not listed in the changelog ?

What other changes have been made which are not documented ?

Its time MikroTik started to take release management seriously.

Nick.
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Re: Yet another change which doesn't appear in the change log.

Wed Mar 10, 2010 1:33 pm

well, then in addition to what you already wrote, you can set more than 2 dns servers on the router.
This is not an acceptable response.

The point is that MT seem to think it is perfectly acceptable to make these changes without even having the courtesy of notifying their customers that this is their intention. MT's history of making such changes will be its downfall - how on earth can any MT product be considered suitable for the enterprise when minor releases break fundamental features?

I am very very angry.
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Re: Yet another change which doesn't appear in the change log.

Wed Mar 10, 2010 1:44 pm

From my observations, the product is maturing but alas the management is not. Time and time again end users are having to deal with the mess that MT leave them due to apparent rushed releases or major changes in minor revisions, with little description or no comment at all on what has changed.
Just my 2c worth.
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Re: Yet another change which doesn't appear in the change log.

Wed Mar 10, 2010 1:47 pm

I've also noticed this change today, but ROS changelog was always "incomplete". 4.6 fixes UPnP for Xbox360 and this also isn't listed in changelog.
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Re: Yet another change which doesn't appear in the change log.

Wed Mar 10, 2010 1:52 pm

well, then in addition to what you already wrote, you can set more than 2 dns servers on the router.
Maybe this is a language barrier / misunderstanding problem, but I read what you wrote to mean,

"MT can add new features without telling it's customers that it has done so if it chooses to do so, as the enhanced features we have added far outweigh the downtime you customers will have trying to work out what exactly we have changed in the command interface. You customers are lucky to have such a wonderful product. Stop complaining."

Or have I read it completely wrong and you didn't really mean that?

I agree with Nick Shore's remarks about release management. The hardest question I have to answer any customer of mine is "which version should I use, which is most stable?" My answer? "No idea, it depends on what you want to have working reliably, suggest you install a version, any version that has the feature set you require and test, test, test. Then NEVER upgrade. Unless you require some other new feature or you are aware of some bug you have found and it's been fixed in a later version. But each time you upgrade, make sure you re-start the testing again, to make sure some other feature you use hasn't been broken."

Maybe I am just feeling fragile and very tired this morning due to having wasted 2 hours for a customer trying to figure out why a script that was working perfectly well on 4.5 no longer does on 4.6! But this is not the first time 'undocumented enhancements' to the OS has tripped me up and I've just put up with it before.

MT Forum Admins: Please do not delete this thread, you are a company that keeps asking for our input and feedback. Having a public Forum is always a brave step for any forward thinking organisation to do. But be prepared for the occasional mud slinging when your customers are not happy. Please read what they say, learn and think of a good forward plan within your company to avoid these kinds of problems. Learn from your mistakes. Don't bury them by deleting them from History as if this was 1984 (it was a book!).
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Re: Yet another change which doesn't appear in the change log.

Wed Mar 10, 2010 3:43 pm

I agree. I don't mean to be negative, Normis I've sent you guys an e-mail. This is not a small issue.

You and your company Mikrotik have to start organizing, creating strict policies, and structuring the company for major expansion. With the venture into to the switch realm with SwOS, some major changes are going to have to take place for the company to survive. Policies need to be in place to ensure consistency and stability throughout the products' growth.

One thing is for sure, Mikrotik is definitely growing :-) I'd like to see customer service and reliability/stability keep up as well.
 
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Re: Yet another change which doesn't appear in the change log.

Wed Mar 10, 2010 3:57 pm

Sorry for that, not sure how it happened. We are always fighting with the developers to write these things in the changelog, but sometimes some things are left out. I hope it didn't break any scripts.
why a script that was working perfectly well on 4.5 no longer does on 4.6
ouch. somebody is going to get it ...
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Re: Yet another change which doesn't appear in the change log.

Wed Mar 10, 2010 3:59 pm

What's the point of it? I thought it didn't break any scripts yet, but I noticed that I was wrong. I can remove my own posts, can't I ?
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Re: Yet another change which doesn't appear in the change log.

Wed Mar 10, 2010 4:08 pm

What's the point of it? I thought it didn't break any scripts yet, but I noticed that I was wrong. I can remove my own posts, can't I ?
Of course you can - it's your forum, you can do whatever you want.

I was discussing this issue with a colleague who told me they couldn't see your posting. I happened to have the post still on my screen, so I copied it and refreshed. Sure enough, the post had gone. The reason I quoted it is because I thought it was quite an important posting that you made and that somehow the forum software may have deleted it.

Mea culpa.
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Re: Yet another change which doesn't appear in the change log.

Wed Mar 10, 2010 4:18 pm

In any case, sorry about the missing line in the Changelog, we are working on it now. We will find out why this happened, and how to improve the changelog system.
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Re: Yet another change which doesn't appear in the change log.

Wed Mar 10, 2010 8:26 pm

In any case, sorry about the missing line in the Changelog, we are working on it now. We will find out why this happened, and how to improve the changelog system.
Oh my god . please add something more in changelog . from now on mikrotik guys will not bypass criticisms. i think it is the best change ever :D
 
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Re: Yet another change which doesn't appear in the change log.

Thu Mar 11, 2010 12:52 am

I understand where you are coming from. Some companies are extremely good at documenting changes, some arent. I have dealth with both. Its pleasant to have an "easter egg" fix that wasnt documented, but in the same respect, people who are looking for a particular fix dont know that it exists.

IMHO, every change should be documented, no matter how small. Even if it is something simple that references an RFC or TicketID so we can lookup what the changes are.

Something simple like this could really shoot some people in the foot. Lets say I upgrade to 4.6 to fix another issue. I test it at one location for a week, deem it stable, then upgrade my other 90ish routers in the field, only to find that a script I had defined to run dynamically under certain circumstances bricks the router because of an undocumented change.

If it was a mistake, fine. People make mistakes, but changing primary=xxx secondary=yyy to servers=xxx,yyy was intentional and I could see someone beating their head against the wall for a while trying to figure out why some elaborate script they have used for years suddenly stops working because of an undocumented change.
 
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Re: Yet another change which doesn't appear in the change log.

Thu Mar 11, 2010 8:47 am

In any case, sorry about the missing line in the Changelog, we are working on it now. We will find out why this happened, and how to improve the changelog system.
You're missing the point completely Normis - it's not about a "missing line". I suggest you read the thread again....

+1 to all the posters though, burned my hands numerious times with MT and undocumented changes... Also pretty much had more than enough of it already.
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Re: Yet another change which doesn't appear in the change log.

Thu Mar 11, 2010 3:27 pm

I remember a live discussion @ MUM prague 2009 about changelogs.. It was a bird of feather discussion about mpls that didn't work and it turned as a changelog complain.
J.Tully listen the discussion too, but nothing changed since that day (an year ago)
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