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jo2jo
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8602 + RB 532 = NOT STABLE! why hasnt someone point this out

Wed Jun 28, 2006 5:50 am

So i have 5 RB 532s and 7 8602 cards. 3 cards from one source, 3 from another, and 1 from a final source (READ: Not all same batch)
(Tried different late os revisions starting with 2.9.18)

VS.

16 WRAP 2c boards EACH with 2 8602's each. (2.9.22)


Aside from ONE wds issue, the 16 wrap boards serve wifi clients ALL day and everyone of them has huge uptimes and no problems...

I get the hardware i described at the top in, and i've had NOTHING but problems. first off, i set the cards to 26db, all rates fixed. the machine keeps rebooting it self in an endless loop. this was the case for 3 different 8602 cards on 3 different RB 532...only way to fix it, remove the card, put it in a GOOD boards, and then set the rates back. Finally i came across one that would work fine...OR SO I THOUGHT...its just waits a while to reboot..maybe 6-12 hours.

NOW IF I MOVE ANY OF THE PROBLEM CARDS OVER TO ANY OF MY RB 112's they have NO PROBLEMS AT ALL. MOVE THEM BACK TO THE RB532, ENDLESS REBOOTS.

I've read the threads saying NOT to use all rates fixed, and DEFAULT setting works best.....this is wrong, simply put: at 17db (or default) i have several rooms that DO NOT get coverage or service, at 26 or even 30db they work just fine. I mean at the location i have the wrap boards, this setting change is the difference between 60 rooms having coverage or not, so i dont buy that "default" is the best setting


anyone have any solutions or ideas?

I hate to send all these RBs back and get wrap boards. Why does everyone talk so much trash about the wrap boards?
 
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macgaiver
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Wed Jun 28, 2006 7:14 am

Try full power (48V), maybe low power is insufficient

(you can switch to the full power setting by changing jumper possitions on the board - read the specification)
With great knowledge comes great responsibility, because of ability to recognize id... incompetent people much faster.
 
tully
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Wed Jun 28, 2006 8:40 am

You should leave the rates to default -- these come from the card and the card manufacturers sets them.

AGAIN YOU ARE CHANGING THINGS YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND....

Read the specs sheet and you will understand that all rate should not be at the same power. Again I suggest to go back to defaults '/system reset' and see how that works.
 
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jager
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Wed Jun 28, 2006 1:20 pm

Tully, believe me that 8602 have serious problems. I changed a lot of settings that i do understand, but at the end I gave up and I replaced 10+ of these cards with SR2 and now everything works just fine. Problems showed up with RB112 and RB532, no matter what board I`m using. I havent tested 8602 with wrap boards, but it should be interesting to try.
Honestly, I can`t believe that Senao allowed that confort to themselves to make so rubbish cards?? If they really works with wrap boards just as they should, (as jo2jo says ) than where the hell should be the problem with RB??
 
tully
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Wed Jun 28, 2006 3:49 pm

Maybe they won't work at all, but we can't worry about the hardware if it is not clear that the software config is correct. So, you should set the software to "/system reset" and then do a test and then send the supout file to support@mikrotik.com ...

After that, we will look for problems in the hardware of antenna setup...

John
 
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jager
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Wed Jun 28, 2006 3:54 pm

jo2jo, please send the supout file, I don`t have any 8602 cards running. They are all swapped to SR2.
 
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HarvSki
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Wed Jun 28, 2006 4:31 pm

what would be nice is the ability to reset the defaults on an interface - rather than having to reset the whole router....

I hope these cards are OK I just ordered a load!
 
dsovereen
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Wed Jun 28, 2006 8:15 pm

We have about 40 RB532s with 8206s installed and don't have any reboot problems with the tx-power set to default. If you set the tx-power, especially to something like 26, you will have problems. Setting it to default makes the RB532 operate stable AND you get 26db power (measured with spectrum analyzer).
 
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jager
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Wed Jun 28, 2006 8:40 pm

dsovereen, you can consider yourself very lucky!
I can`t desribe you what different problems I had with those cards: router rebooting, random clients disconnection, tx signal weakening...
I really did everything what could be done to fix the problem, experimented as much as possible, bcouse I had 12 routerboards with these cards, and was very desperate. At the end I swapped all cards with SR2.
Maybe they are OK on 5GHz band, I used them on 2.4 only, maybe I had that bad luck that I got a whole bunch of faulty cards.... who knows. At the end, my experience with 8602 are very bad :(
 
jo2jo
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Wed Jun 28, 2006 10:20 pm

Tully, how do you explain that at 30db i get coverage of rooms, and 23 or less I DONT. I test signal and coverage with 3 or 4 different devices when i do these things too....you can also watch pings fall off if you have it set to 23 or less... ON WRAP BOARDS keep in mind. This is the EXACT same message you posted in one of my other threads about a similar issue.

I do have the jumper set to the right setting for power as well. 48V PSU does not help.

Should i just post my Supout file here or does it contain sensitive info, ive never had to deal with one before.

Thanks for the quick discussion, this seems like a hot topic.
 
dsovereen
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Wed Jun 28, 2006 10:30 pm

We use our 8602s in 5GHz exclusively. Can't comment on 2.4GHz operation. Should have said that. Sorry.

Dave
 
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ghmorris
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Wed Jun 28, 2006 11:32 pm

dsovereen, you can consider yourself very lucky!
I can`t desribe you what different problems I had with those cards: router rebooting, random clients disconnection, tx signal weakening...
I really did everything what could be done to fix the problem, experimented as much as possible, bcouse I had 12 routerboards with these cards, and was very desperate. At the end I swapped all cards with SR2.
Maybe they are OK on 5GHz band, I used them on 2.4 only, maybe I had that bad luck that I got a whole bunch of faulty cards.... who knows. At the end, my experience with 8602 are very bad :(
We are seeing problems with different batches purchased at different times.

Some cards are just fine, others reboot at default power but not at 14dB, we have had two that dropped 20dB in output AND receive strength three days after install.

Very strange, we are now moving away from them as results are just too unpredictable.

The most annoying thing is the first set we bought worked just fine with MT.

George
 
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jager
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Thu Jun 29, 2006 2:07 am

ghmorris, do you use the cards in 2.4, 5GHz or mixed?
2.4 band in my case was giving exactly the same problems as you described.
Can`t comment 5GHz mode, we are using SR5 for this band from the very begining
 
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ghmorris
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Thu Jun 29, 2006 3:18 am

ghmorris, do you use the cards in 2.4, 5GHz or mixed?
2.4 band in my case was giving exactly the same problems as you described.
Can`t comment 5GHz mode, we are using SR5 for this band from the very begining
We use them for both, but more 5.x than 2.4.

Behaviour is the same in both bands. Totally unpredictable, some cards are just fine, others are terrible regardless what you do, some are OK if you turn the power right down.

George
 
jo2jo
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Thu Jun 29, 2006 4:12 am

I still have to go back to the fact that i have 16 wrap boards, EACH with 2 8602s and EVERYONE of them is set to "All levels fixed" at 30db

No probs at all!...ppl connect to all of them and use them just fine...

i guess what we need is some reports from ppl using 8602s and WRAP boards since there are clearly probs on the RouterBoards... anyone?
 
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ghmorris
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Thu Jun 29, 2006 4:33 am

I still have to go back to the fact that i have 16 wrap boards, EACH with 2 8602s and EVERYONE of them is set to "All levels fixed" at 30db

No probs at all!...ppl connect to all of them and use them just fine...

i guess what we need is some reports from ppl using 8602s and WRAP boards since there are clearly probs on the RouterBoards... anyone?
My first 30 units worked and continue to work great, all on RB532s. Get a few more in the field and we can develop a better picture. We have something close to 100 in production now I estimate.

As I've mentioned, the problem varies by batch and does not present as one consistent problem, but rather as several different problems that appear at random, apparently governed by the phases of the moon! :(

BTW, I do NOT understand why you are trying to drive a 26dB card at 30dB. That seems more than a little unconventional as does running a card that clearly has a graduated power output at different modulations at "all levels fixed".

Would you care to explain please? Considering you are apparently driving the cards way outside the spec the data you present is less useful to the rest of us and is apparently useless for determining if there really is a driver problem with MT. :?

George
 
jo2jo
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Thu Jun 29, 2006 5:12 am

Well i feel it is useful info as:

I can run the wrap boards with 8602's at ANY fixed rate.

VS.

I can only run SOME 8602 cards at fixed rates on Router Boards. If i set a card to a fixed rate and it causes any of my 3 RB532s here to continously reboot, i simply pop that card into one of the wrap boards here and it boots fine, at the same level the RB was having trouble with. If i set the card (while in the wrap board) back to default, i can then put it back in the RB532 and boot it with NO ISSUES.

I'll make it as clear as possible: ALL RATES FIXED works on wrap boards fine, its very flaky at best on RBs.


we can argue back and forth that i'm dumb for setting them at 26 or 30 or NOT at default, but that is not the problem here...and unless anyone want to drive out to florida and see EXACTLY what im talking about (1/4 of this complex does not get coverage if i have the rates fixed at anything less than 23db) I'm using huge 90 degree sector 17dbi antennas as well, so the RX sensitivity is great at any TX power.
 
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ghmorris
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Thu Jun 29, 2006 1:25 pm

OK, please forgive me for pointing out the obvious.

MT runs differently ion different platforms. We use VIA, Intel, AMD, RB230s, RB532s and RB112s.

They all have their little quirks and oddities.

It is no surprise that a card with known hardware glitches is going to run differently on different platforms. You acknowledge driving the 8602 well outside its design spec and recognize that you're having problems. Many of us that have done a lot of work with 8602s feel the first thing you do with a flaky 8602 is turn the power down.

Your application won't let you do that and still run properly. Fair enough.

You are probably going to be better off cutting your losses and trying something like an SR5 in your application or sticking with WRAPs. Generally SR5s are fairly predictable and many people have had decent results with them, us included. Some people have had problems. Again, there seems to be some variance in different batches and we've certainly seen that. <sigh>

As I'm sure you're already aware, MT has been selling a 6th generation Atheros card for quite a while (the R52) and it is reported to work well so a driver issue is perhaps unlikely although not out of the question.

George
 
jo2jo
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Sun Jul 02, 2006 12:22 am

hmm.. it seems that on any of my RB 532s w/ 8602 cards tured to Default power, if i enable or disable the card, the router hangs and i have to pull the power from it.

just discovered this.
 
goldclick
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Tue Aug 08, 2006 11:53 am

We have about 40 RB532s with 8206s installed and don't have any reboot problems with the tx-power set to default. If you set the tx-power, especially to something like 26, you will have problems. Setting it to default makes the RB532 operate stable AND you get 26db power (measured with spectrum analyzer).
We use our 8602s in 5GHz exclusively. Can't comment on 2.4GHz operation. Should have said that. Sorry.

Dave
Dave,
How were you able to get 26dB out of the 8602 in 5GHz mode? AFAIK, 8602 only produces this power in 2.4GHz. Are you sure you measured 26dB in 5GHz with spectrum analyser?

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dsovereen
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Tue Aug 08, 2006 5:28 pm

Although we only use the 8602 in production in 5GHz, we did test and run trials of the 8602 in 2.4GHz. The power output, when set to default, was 26dB. We had problems with the radios keeping clients associated, though, and after putting just a few into production, pulled them and replaced them with old and reliable Prism cards.

I am told that Mikrotik has since updated their Atheros generation 6 driver and that they can now handle lots of users better, but we haven't tried it and won't. We're sticking with Prism on links to customers.

Dave
 
goldclick
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Wed Aug 09, 2006 11:50 pm

Although we only use the 8602 in production in 5GHz, we did test and run trials of the 8602 in 2.4GHz. The power output, when set to default, was 26dB. We had problems with the radios keeping clients associated, though, and after putting just a few into production, pulled them and replaced them with old and reliable Prism cards.

I am told that Mikrotik has since updated their Atheros generation 6 driver and that they can now handle lots of users better, but we haven't tried it and won't. We're sticking with Prism on links to customers.

Dave
Ok, that explains it. Thanks

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Alessio Garavano
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Thu Aug 10, 2006 7:11 am

We use our 8602s in 5GHz exclusively. Can't comment on 2.4GHz operation. Should have said that. Sorry.

Dave
You have 26db in 5Ghz with 8602??? :?
Are you sure? in the DataSheet i read tha max power in 802.11a is in 5.26-5.32Ghz 20dBm @6~24Mbps

Regards!
Alessio

PS: tomorrow go test theses in 5Ghz at 8Km link... good luck for me :D later i post bye
Alessio Garavano
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RB532 and 8602

Thu Aug 10, 2006 7:41 am

I also have several of these combinations in production in the 5GHz spectrum and havent had a problem so far. I did have a problem with a 511 and 8602 along the lines you have mentioned here, continuous reboots and signal drops. Including several long links 12-14km and sectors with above 20 customers attached. So far been running like a champ.

I would however be intereted in the results of the supout file since this could pose a serious problem for my business if they decide to go flaky later.
 
jonbrewer
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Thu Aug 10, 2006 9:17 am

You should leave the rates to default -- these come from the card and the card manufacturers sets them.

AGAIN YOU ARE CHANGING THINGS YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND....

Read the specs sheet and you will understand that all rate should not be at the same power. Again I suggest to go back to defaults '/system reset' and see how that works.
Mr. Tully, I have 50 RB532A and 100 8602 cards very recently acquired.

The first units to be assembled are having this reboot problem as soon as radios are enabled after a /system reset. No settings changed, just an endless loop of reboots. If I turn off hardware watchdog, the system just hangs and needs a power cycle.

I am going to be terminally unhappy with Mikrotik if we don't see some resolution on this issue. How about I send you a unit and you tell me what the hell is wrong?
 
lbreukelman
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Tue Aug 22, 2006 4:47 pm

We have also experienced very unstable/unreliable performance from the 8602 Senao cards. We use 5.xGHz and RB532/112. I have started replacing them with SR5 and CM9 cards. Problems include all the above mentioned symptoms like random reboots, signal failure, complete refusal to work etc.
 
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normis
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Wed Aug 23, 2006 10:19 am

those cards are not made according to standards, so they of course can have problems. they are too high power and have some other issues. recent editions of routerboards do not play well together with them, but we will improve this in next revision.
 
arE
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Wed Aug 23, 2006 10:22 am

I tested 2 RB 532 with 8602. Max power in 5GHz is 11 and 12 dBm. If I power up (or set default), RB reboot. On 6km link I have -72dBm. Time to move up on the 120m and change card... :x
 
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normis
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Wed Aug 23, 2006 10:25 am

just like I said, they draw too much power from the board, which causes problems ...
 
jo2jo
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Thu Aug 24, 2006 4:00 am

thats not the issue as i can run 3 of these on a wrap board, but NOT run 3 sr5's on a wrap.....

This is the best MT came up with?? so your telling me the power supply on a 99$ wrap 2c is better than the rb 532's.

are you also telling me that the power supply on a RB 112 is better than an rb 532 bc i can run 2 nmp-8602s on a rb112 with NO issues but not 1 on a 532, and ALL the way up to manual 30 TX on the 112 (not that i do as i now leave them all to default)
 
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normis
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Thu Aug 24, 2006 9:08 am

it has nothing to do with the power supply. as i said, we will fix this problem in the next revision. we changed one part but didn't notice that it affected this one particular card
 
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NathanA
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Fri Aug 25, 2006 3:29 am

it has nothing to do with the power supply. as i said, we will fix this problem in the next revision. we changed one part but didn't notice that it affected this one particular card
Is there going to be a way to easily identify which board revisions are "EMP safe"? :-)

-- Nathan
 
jonbrewer
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Mon Oct 16, 2006 8:46 pm

it has nothing to do with the power supply. as i said, we will fix this problem in the next revision. we changed one part but didn't notice that it affected this one particular card
What's the part, and what's an acceptable replacement? Otherwise do you have the next revision ready?
 
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Mon Oct 16, 2006 11:48 pm

Hmm.. kind of off-topic perhaps, but we're using a Senao NL-2511MP PLUS 2.4GHz 802.11b card, and lately I don't know if its my antenna at home, or perhaps this card at the tower but I've been seeing relatively high, sometimes outrageous ping times to the AP, and occasionally, I'll have to power cycle my antenna so new connections will go thru (existing connections stay up).

At first, we were using the CM9 that came with it (RB532), but after having not-so-good performance with the CM9, we switched to the NL-2511MP PLUS.

My question is, has anyone else seen this or used this card, and what are the differences between a CM9 and an SR2, other than 400mW on SR2 (both use the same chipset, Atheros AR5213A).
 
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Alessio Garavano
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Tue Oct 17, 2006 7:58 am

We use our 8602s in 5GHz exclusively. Can't comment on 2.4GHz operation. Should have said that. Sorry.

Dave
You have 26db in 5Ghz with 8602??? :?
Are you sure? in the DataSheet i read tha max power in 802.11a is in 5.26-5.32Ghz 20dBm @6~24Mbps

Regards!
Alessio

PS: tomorrow go test theses in 5Ghz at 8Km link... good luck for me :D later i post bye

NMP-8602 is bad, more poor in 5Ghz than R52 and more poor in 2.4Ghz than SR2... and very easy to die

Regards!
Alessio
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msoares
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NMP-8602 in 5Ghz and 2,4Ghz

Tue Oct 24, 2006 9:09 pm

I have placed 2 NMP-8602 one in 5,8Ghz and another one in 2,4Ghz, the best power and balance than obtains was to fix to 19DB both plates, I have proven to setear them from 16db to 26db, but in 19db it is what better it obtains, as much in power as in stability. Pardon by my ingles PS: this with a RB112.
 
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Tue Oct 31, 2006 9:23 pm

I thought I would chime in here on the 8602 issue. I have tried 2 different routerboards. A 532 with 4 of them in it will not work at all. Constant reboots no matter what the power is set at.

RB153 works fine for about 5 hours then locks up. Strange thing is when it locks up, it takes out the router that it is connected to for internet access. Unplug the ethernet cable and all is well with the internet router but no wireless output from the cards.

The set up is 2 at 2.4 23db and 1 5.8 degault power.

Strangely enough just like jojo, I have one of these in a 112 at 2.4 20db power and it works fine.

Has anyone heard from MT about when they are going to fix this?

Software revision does not seem to be an issue as the 112 is at 2.9.30, the 532 is at 34 and the 153 is at 30.

Kenny
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