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normis
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MikroTik News December 2018 (Issue #86)

Wed Dec 19, 2018 12:59 pm

In this MikroTik newsletter:

- new PWR-LINE AP
- new wAP, LtAP mini, LHG and SXT kits for LTE bands 3,7,20,31,41n,42 and 43
- new metal SOLIDmount
- wall mount kit for RB4011 series
- MUM schedule
- MUM Europe 2019 in Austria

Download newsletter here:
https://download2.mikrotik.com/news/news_86.pdf
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drbunsen
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Re: MikroTik News December 2018 (Issue #86)

Wed Dec 19, 2018 1:20 pm

Hi,
not a fan of PLC as it uses frequencies not intended for this application and assigned to other services.
I hope that PWR-LINE AP at least does not use ham radio bands for the PLC transmission, otherwise you might get complains...
 
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normis
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Re: MikroTik News December 2018 (Issue #86)

Wed Dec 19, 2018 1:30 pm

You can read about the standard here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HomePlug#HomePlug_AV

Devices are certified by the FCC.
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drbunsen
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Re: MikroTik News December 2018 (Issue #86)

Wed Dec 19, 2018 1:59 pm

The standard might not require to use gaps for specific bands, as the intention is to keep the HF on the line. However using a unmatched line (the power grid) to transfer HF is a guarantee to send out unwanted transmission. The question is just how far these go and if someone in this range feels affected by it.

Here in Germany the law is that PLC is tolerated until someone is affected. If someone is, then the source of interference has to stop it, usually this means to stop using the PLC at all.
Other vendors learned this the hard way and updated their PLC devices with notches to at least spare the ham bands. Hams are usually tech savyy and will find the source of interference and will rightfully act against it. You don't want to have the hams as an enemy...
 
martydingo
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Re: MikroTik News December 2018 (Issue #86)

Wed Dec 19, 2018 2:03 pm

This is great for Europe and the US, but what about other plugs?

Are we going to get UK plugs? I've been looking forward to these for ages, they're a good solution for places with thick stone walls, but it's quite unprofessional fitting these with a travel adaptor..
 
patrick7
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Re: MikroTik News December 2018 (Issue #86)

Wed Dec 19, 2018 2:03 pm

Cool, RouterOS v7!
Is there a changelog?
 
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normis
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Re: MikroTik News December 2018 (Issue #86)

Wed Dec 19, 2018 2:04 pm

Currently only US and EU plugs.
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rushlife
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Re: MikroTik News December 2018 (Issue #86)

Wed Dec 19, 2018 2:37 pm

Hi Normis, what about 48 port switches ?
When will be these available ?

Thx
 
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normis
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Re: MikroTik News December 2018 (Issue #86)

Wed Dec 19, 2018 2:52 pm

Not in this newsletter :)
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raffav
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Re: MikroTik News December 2018 (Issue #86)

Wed Dec 19, 2018 3:20 pm

Cool, RouterOS v7!
Is there a changelog?
You are joking right?


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cpetey147
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Re: MikroTik News December 2018 (Issue #86)

Wed Dec 19, 2018 5:01 pm

200mg data rate for the ple adapters..... We need at least 500mg to make them usable in homes.
 
oh3mbc
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Re: MikroTik News December 2018 (Issue #86)

Wed Dec 19, 2018 6:11 pm

Will those PWR-LINE AP units work with existing devices of other brand, lest say TP-Link?
 
MonkeyDan
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Re: MikroTik News December 2018 (Issue #86)

Wed Dec 19, 2018 8:09 pm

LOVE the solidMOUNT. Especially for Wireless Wire dishes!
 
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Re: MikroTik News December 2018 (Issue #86)

Wed Dec 19, 2018 8:51 pm

The PWR AP is an interesting product, but I would love to see it in 5GHz instead of 2.4GHz. We are slowly starting to ditch 2.4 APs in every solution.
How to you limit the area of coverage of this product? If it is transmitting through power lines, what stops it to go to the neighbor apartment?
-Toni-
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Re: MikroTik News December 2018 (Issue #86)

Wed Dec 19, 2018 11:08 pm

The PWR AP is an interesting product, but I would love to see it in 5GHz instead of 2.4GHz. We are slowly starting to ditch 2.4 APs in every solution.
How to you limit the area of coverage of this product? If it is transmitting through power lines, what stops it to go to the neighbor apartment?
This devices look like there was designed for 2012... in optical and technical

Solidmount is nice thing
 
mkx
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Re: MikroTik News December 2018 (Issue #86)

Thu Dec 20, 2018 12:46 pm

The PWR AP is an interesting product, but I would love to see it in 5GHz instead of 2.4GHz. We are slowly starting to ditch 2.4 APs in every solution.
How to you limit the area of coverage of this product? If it is transmitting through power lines, what stops it to go to the neighbor apartment?
.
PLC effectively stops at any coil present in power lines. All "automatic" fuses have coils inside while older ("melting" type) fuses don't have coils. PLC also "jumps" to another phase if wires run parallel for some length (order of magnitude of 10 metres) which is common in buildings with 3-phase wiring.
This effect can severely limit PLC usefulness in multi-floor houses if multiple electrical distribution points are used with "automatic" fuses in use - in such case it is not possible to extend single PLC LAN to different floors.

So in buildings with older wiring there's good chance that PLC will go around quite far. In buildings with newer wiring it will stop at apartment's electrical distribution point.

PLC is usually encrypted with a password (similar to PSK in WPA/WPA2) and even units of same model don't form single network if PSKs used are not the same. However, different PLC network will interfer with each other if used in same "circuit domain" - just as APs interfere with each other if used on same channel. I've never tried but in theory it should be possible to use PLC devices from different vendors to form single network if they adhere to same standard (mostly that's HomePlug AV) revision.
BR,
Metod
 
SteveWrightNZ
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Re: MikroTik News December 2018 (Issue #86)

Thu Dec 20, 2018 10:44 pm

Be aware that the powerline stuff will wipe out the entire HF spectrum and raise the anger of radio amateurs near to you.

Don't care? You will.

Radio Amateurs have equipment AND LICENSING to LEGALLY use TENS OF KILOWATTS EIRP on spectrum from 1MHz to 50GHz, and should you wipe out their hobby they WILL angrily stamp on your game at every single entry point they can find. They will fire up their mega tube amplifier, and Donald duck will come out of your home stereo, your ADSL will reset and lose its firmware, your security lights will flash randomly, your skin will feel prickly while you are trying to get to sleep, and you will get a nasty RF burn of your aluminium gate, so think twice before you plug that powerline unit in.
 
raffav
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Re: MikroTik News December 2018 (Issue #86)

Fri Dec 21, 2018 12:08 am

Be aware that the powerline stuff will wipe out the entire HF spectrum and raise the anger of radio amateurs near to you.

Don't care? You will.

Radio Amateurs have equipment AND LICENSING to LEGALLY use TENS OF KILOWATTS EIRP on spectrum from 1MHz to 50GHz, and should you wipe out their hobby they WILL angrily stamp on your game at every single entry point they can find. They will fire up their mega tube amplifier, and Donald duck will come out of your home stereo, your ADSL will reset and lose its firmware, your security lights will flash randomly, your skin will feel prickly while you are trying to get to sleep, and you will get a nasty RF burn of your aluminium gate, so think twice before you plug that powerline unit in.
Radio amateur detected
ImageImageImageImage

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baragoon
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Re: MikroTik News December 2018 (Issue #86)

Fri Dec 21, 2018 9:40 am

Cool, RouterOS v7!
Is there a changelog?
:lol:
 
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normis
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Re: MikroTik News December 2018 (Issue #86)

Fri Dec 21, 2018 9:44 am

What are you guys even talking about? As radio amateurs, shouldn't you be well versed in matters of the regulations and technology?

EN50561 and HomeplugAV standard both define each frequency that is used by radio amateurs, and instructs to use "Effective notching" to not bother your precious hobby frequencies. Instead of getting angry for nothing, please do some research. Our chipset does not bother any HAM operators.
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Re: MikroTik News December 2018 (Issue #86)

Fri Dec 21, 2018 12:02 pm

The PWR AP is an interesting product, but I would love to see it in 5GHz instead of 2.4GHz. We are slowly starting to ditch 2.4 APs in every solution.
How to you limit the area of coverage of this product? If it is transmitting through power lines, what stops it to go to the neighbor apartment?
.
PLC effectively stops at any coil present in power lines. All "automatic" fuses have coils inside while older ("melting" type) fuses don't have coils. PLC also "jumps" to another phase if wires run parallel for some length (order of magnitude of 10 metres) which is common in buildings with 3-phase wiring.
This effect can severely limit PLC usefulness in multi-floor houses if multiple electrical distribution points are used with "automatic" fuses in use - in such case it is not possible to extend single PLC LAN to different floors.

So in buildings with older wiring there's good chance that PLC will go around quite far. In buildings with newer wiring it will stop at apartment's electrical distribution point.

PLC is usually encrypted with a password (similar to PSK in WPA/WPA2) and even units of same model don't form single network if PSKs used are not the same. However, different PLC network will interfer with each other if used in same "circuit domain" - just as APs interfere with each other if used on same channel. I've never tried but in theory it should be possible to use PLC devices from different vendors to form single network if they adhere to same standard (mostly that's HomePlug AV) revision.
Thank you, quite interesting post. Wish MikroTik could have explained it as you did to understand it better on how this product can be used. Not every one of us is familiar with "same power circuit" and how it is physically bordered.
For example, if I have a magnetic circuit breaker kitchen, another for bedroom, another for living room, can I extend the network with such pair from living room to bedroom?
-Toni-
Don't crash the ambulance, whatever you do
 
mkx
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Re: MikroTik News December 2018 (Issue #86)

Fri Dec 21, 2018 12:38 pm

... Not every one of us is familiar with "same power circuit" and how it is physically bordered.
.
This information is not something you can pick anywhere, it depends on how wiring in particular building is done. You can get that information either from electric installation blueprints or some qualified electrician can help you discover it. Or, if everything else fails, discover it using scientific method publicly known as try and fail.
.
For example, if I have a magnetic circuit breaker kitchen, another for bedroom, another for living room, can I extend the network with such pair from living room to bedroom?
.
My experience is that it works, but poorly. When I conducted tests with PLC equipment (AV-500), it worked fairly well when used on same electrical circuit (i.e. on one side of magnetic circuit breaker) - speeds reaching around half of theoretical values (i.e. around 250Mbps whereas AV-500 theoretically allows up to 500Mbps). If there were magnetic circuit breakers on the way (probably there will be at least 2 of them), the real speed dropped by an order of magnitude (or two). The same equipment worked nicely over "classical" circuit breakers without notable effect on throughput.

Perhaps unexpected result of a related experiment: when electrical installation features magnetic circuit breakers PLC might actually perform better between outlets on different phases if wires of both phases leading to utilized outlets parallel to each other for a few metres. Obviously inter-wire crosstalk is high enough and magnetic circuit breaker's attenuation big enough to make this difference.
Same phenomenon helps better PLC operation when used on same phase.
If particular wires don't run parallel long enough, then this phenomenon doesn't happen.

Worth to note is that PLC works best on non-stranded wires (the non-flexible ones that are usually used inside walls). If PLC device is plugged to an extension cord, which almost certainly uses stranded wires (for their flexibility), then performance drops (every metre counts). I expect performance might (slightly?) drop when used some plug type converters (e.g. for plugging EU-type device into UK-type outlet).
BR,
Metod
 
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Re: MikroTik News December 2018 (Issue #86)

Fri Dec 21, 2018 12:58 pm

You can read about the standard here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HomePlug#HomePlug_AV

Devices are certified by the FCC.
only AV? That is not enough.
 
muetzekoeln
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Re: MikroTik News December 2018 (Issue #86)

Fri Dec 21, 2018 2:15 pm

perform better between outlets on different phases if wires of both phases leading to utilized outlets parallel to each other for a few metres. Obviously inter-wire crosstalk is high enough and magnetic circuit breaker's attenuation big enough to make this difference.
Same phenomenon helps better PLC operation when used on same phase.
If particular wires don't run parallel long enough, then this phenomenon doesn't happen.

If allowed by your country's laws one can install phase coupling devices in the distribution cabinet to improve the signal.
 
oh3mbc
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Re: MikroTik News December 2018 (Issue #86)

Tue Dec 25, 2018 6:05 pm

Be aware that the powerline stuff will wipe out the entire HF spectrum and raise the anger of radio amateurs near to you.

I'll call BS on this, running some PLC equipment at home without significant rise on noise levels on HF

73's de OH3MBC (hamradio operator since 1987)
 
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leoservices
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Re: MikroTik News December 2018 (Issue #86)

Wed Dec 26, 2018 4:23 am

Great news PWR-LINE AP.

The bad thing is to live in Brazil and we will not have homologated in Anatel because the distributors do not homologate.
I try to help !

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