hEX nand size ONLY 16MB !!!!

Tue Oct 27, 2015 9:43 pm

in specs mikrotik do not inform nand size

today i have this unpleasant surprise only 16mb

hex resources.jpg

of course latest rotueros and firmware 6.32.3 and firmware 3.27

deanMKD1 · Tue Oct 27, 2015 10:06 pm

So what ? 16 mb nand size is enough for normal use. And remeber this is only a router, not NAS to storing files.

Tue Oct 27, 2015 10:29 pm

So what ? 16 mb nand size is enough for normal use. And remeber this is only a router, not NAS to storing files.

im not even thinking about use a mikrotik as a NAS

local storage its useful for another things:

local log storage
partitions
store backups

this budged mikrotik products normally come with at least 32mb of nand

for example the rb951Ui has 128mb and even the cheap rb951-2n has 128mb too

this device do not have micro sd and/or usb port to expand storage so its a big limitation

skuykend · Wed Oct 28, 2015 2:36 am

Wow, that can't be right.
You don't even have enough free space to do an upgrade!

Hopefully it's just being reported wrong.

Wed Oct 28, 2015 5:06 am

hex files.jpg

Wed Oct 28, 2015 9:04 am

Upgrade is done in RAM. For RouterOS you don't need a lot of storage, disk is almost never used. It is enough for most features. Your mentioned log to files and partitions are features for CCR or more powerful devices.

Wed Oct 28, 2015 9:13 am

What power is needed for partitions? Or for normal logging? None. Of course it is not smart to log to build-in flash anyway.

Wed Oct 28, 2015 10:04 am

Most of the smaller devices now have SPI FLASH instead of NAND. SPI has 16MB of storage space. It is plenty for normal use, and upgrade is done in RAM anyway. So you should be cautious of this fact, if you intend to use the built in SPI. Look for a device that has USB ports if you need storage.

Wed Oct 28, 2015 1:13 pm

Upgrade is done in RAM. For RouterOS you don't need a lot of storage, disk is almost never used. It is enough for most features. Your mentioned log to files and partitions are features for CCR or more powerful devices.

Wed Oct 28, 2015 1:16 pm

Most of the smaller devices now have SPI FLASH instead of NAND. SPI has 16MB of storage space. It is plenty for normal use, and upgrade is done in RAM anyway. So you should be cautious of this fact, if you intend to use the built in SPI. Look for a device that has USB ports if you need storage.

ok then please inform us in datasheets of this fact, many new devices do not inform storage size in documentation

its a unpleasant surprise to discover it after buying it

Wed Oct 28, 2015 1:21 pm

Of course it is not smart to log to build-in flash anyway.

i encountered logging to build in flash a usefull feature to diagnose issues on remote locations with frequent connectivity and power issues, not all clients or installations have the connectivity or infrastructure to implement a syslog server

can you explain me why do you find is not smart to do logging to build in flash? maybe im missing something

onnoossendrijver · Wed Oct 28, 2015 2:17 pm

Flash is not very good for writing large volumes of data. Logging to flash can wear the flash really fast.

Wed Oct 28, 2015 4:21 pm

It is not smart because the flash has limited number of write cycles. By logging to flash it will damage it quite soon. Therefore logging to usb flash disk, CF or SD card is much better. The best is to log remotely to log server (you can use Dude or whatever else logserver).

Wed Oct 28, 2015 7:47 pm

It is not smart because the flash has limited number of write cycles. By logging to flash it will damage it quite soon. Therefore logging to usb flash disk, CF or SD card is much better. The best is to log remotely to log server (you can use Dude or whatever else logserver).

thanks for the advice, in that cases i only log important events it generates only 1000 kbyte of logs monthly

skuykend · Thu Oct 29, 2015 9:04 am

and upgrade is done in RAM anyway

Is that just with the online packages upgrade process?

What is the recommended process for offline upgrading without working direct connection to the internet? I would usually drag the upgrade file into winbox, but doesn't that copy to the flash in this case.

Thu Oct 29, 2015 9:23 am

and upgrade is done in RAM anyway
Is that just with the online packages upgrade process?

What is the recommended process for offline upgrading without working direct connection to the internet? I would usually drag the upgrade file into winbox, but doesn't that copy to the flash in this case.

No, all upgrade is done via RAM

Thu Oct 29, 2015 9:29 am

Key word here i think is RAMDRIVE.
So while board is powered you have the same experience as regular flash.
Only problem is when you powercycle/reboot. All content from RAMDRIVE is gone.
So files that you like to keep you need to put in /flash/ folder

Upgrade process happens before actual powercycle/reboot so you are fine.

CsXen · Wed Nov 25, 2015 11:40 am

Hi.
Should we ask NOT to DISCONTINUE the good old RB750GL version ? It has 128MB Flash HDD capacity, AND 64MB RAM.
The new and "better" RB750Gr2 (hEX) has only 16MB Flash... for the same price.

(I bought one on last week, but today I gave it back to the distributor and changed to RB750GL !!!)

Best regards: CsXen

Járt utat járatlanért el ne hagyj...

InoX · Wed Nov 25, 2015 2:10 pm

I believe that 99.9% of mikrotik users, don't use onboard storage. Is usesless.

barkas · Wed Nov 25, 2015 6:23 pm

I need to be able to use the partition feature, 16mb flash is useless to me.
Please document flash sizes.

Zorro · Tue Dec 01, 2015 9:19 am

its had troublesome only in terms of flash resources.
both because size and low resource of recent, based on small transistors, flash(only exception is Samsung V-flash, which uses 40nm cells).
so if you do update you ROS Really FREQUENTLY, its become problem Very soon.

kobuki · Wed Dec 02, 2015 11:50 am

I'm not very concerned about the problem, but I find it weird that with ever falling flash prices, Mikrotik wants to save the pennies on it. In large volumes, it turns into profit, that's for sure, but still...

Wed Dec 02, 2015 11:53 am

I need to be able to use the partition feature, 16mb flash is useless to me.
Please document flash sizes.

We are doing it now:

Screenshot 2015-12-02 11.53.08.png

florentrivoire · Wed Dec 02, 2015 4:40 pm

I need to be able to use the partition feature, 16mb flash is useless to me.
Please document flash sizes.
We are doing it now:
Screenshot 2015-12-02 11.53.08.png

Thanks Normis, it's a good thing

Wed Dec 02, 2015 6:45 pm

I need to be able to use the partition feature, 16mb flash is useless to me.
Please document flash sizes.
We are doing it now:
Screenshot 2015-12-02 11.53.08.png

OMG ccr1072 only comes with 128mb of nand

Thu Dec 03, 2015 12:01 pm

I need to be able to use the partition feature, 16mb flash is useless to me.
Please document flash sizes.
We are doing it now:
Screenshot 2015-12-02 11.53.08.png

OMG ccr1072 only comes with 128mb of nand

It has M.2 slots, why would you need more? You have have 1TB of SSD disks in there.

Thu Dec 03, 2015 6:15 pm

OMG ccr1072 only comes with 128mb of nand
It has M.2 slots, why would you need more? You have have 1TB of SSD disks in there.

from my point of view as a customer is a matter of coherency

ccr1036-12g-4s 3 times cheaper comes with 1gb of nand, i have a rb951Ui and has the same 128mb of nand like the flagship ccr1072

maybe from your perspective as a vendor you see this different, a new strategy of product or something like that.

from some time now i see the amount of nand included in products decreasing, why is that??

if we add storage via m2 slot or usb port that storage can be used for partition?? for boot??

Zorro · Fri Dec 04, 2015 6:37 am

It has M.2 slots, why would you need more? You have have 1TB of SSD disks in there.

would be nice to had SD or microSD slot (probably inside it)aswell, then.

Fri Dec 04, 2015 8:51 am

It has M.2 slots, why would you need more? You have have 1TB of SSD disks in there.
would be nice to had SD or microSD slot (probably inside it)aswell, then.

It has that also http://routerboard.com/CCR1072-1G-8Splus

Zorro · Tue Dec 08, 2015 12:35 am

so far in "budget" sector of networking production "budget" itself is strict aswell.
and developers, thus - had to prioritize/balance things within it to sustain expected/useful features/performance/price ration.
talking specifically for HEX and HAP routers sub-versions with SPI flash - i prefer had tiny(and sloow, btw)flash, but have Good switch chip like 8337 are.
(about 8337 chips: there was version with "hardware NAT" with are even More faster. and version with hardware support of MacSec and PortSec features. and version with increased buffer(both "generic" and "NAT" versions had it. boost thorughput CONSIDERABLY especially on hw-NAT version. but there is no versions AFAIK that converge Anything, ie NAT, MacSec/PortSec and Huge buffer, sadly)

It has M.2 slots, why would you need more? You have have 1TB of SSD disks in there.
would be nice to had SD or microSD slot (probably inside it)aswell, then.
It has that also http://routerboard.com/CCR1072-1G-8Splus

wow ! thats fantastic !!
thanks to pointing me out that

Tue Dec 08, 2015 11:13 am

we have something better than hardware NAT, it is called Fasttrack.

Zorro · Thu Dec 10, 2015 6:50 am

we have something better than hardware NAT, it is called Fasttrack.

no, we're talking bout Different things.
"hardware NAT' in 8337N-versions of switch chip is silicon-based thingy, not SDK-based "dirty hack" more familar for devices with firmware, made from broadcom/mediatek SDK.
"FastTrack" ? ie, thing, eliminating (major portion of tiny already)router security/tracking to achieve bigger bandwidth/pps ?
hell, NO !! Ever !
"FastPath" however offloading however may be potentially interesting thing on platforms/SoC, where its silicon-driven, without compromising anything(security, latency, consistency, etc), eg, never ARm8a cores, for example(like A35 mentioned before) or new 1004k versions(which is fast enough by itself, thanks to 1-2-4 core CPu's with 1-2 threads per each)of MIPS-BE SoC.
so far 8337 variations is "one of best" among Affordable switch chips.

barkas · Thu Dec 10, 2015 9:13 am

we have something better than hardware NAT, it is called Fasttrack.

Now that's just marketing bs.

Please define what better means for you in this case.

Thu Dec 10, 2015 9:22 am

Can you both define what your end goal is with Hardware NAT? To have what ? Better speed ? For what kind of traffic ?

As far as I know HW NAT has many limiations, for example:

- QoS Restrictions
- Port Forwarding Not Compatible
- IP Traffic Monitoring and Parental Control
- Issues with Mirroring of Streaming Devices
- Table sizes etc

These work with FastTrack. I suggest you try it. It is a simple way to get better throughput with less compromise, you can even enable it only for specific traffic.

Zorro · Thu Dec 10, 2015 3:59 pm

Can you both define what your end goal is with Hardware NAT? To have what ? Better speed ? For what kind of traffic ?

As far as I know HW NAT has many limiations, for example:

- QoS Restrictions
- Port Forwarding Not Compatible
- IP Traffic Monitoring and Parental Control
- Issues with Mirroring of Streaming Devices
- Table sizes etc

These work with FastTrack. I suggest you try it. It is a simple way to get better throughput with less compromise, you can even enable it only for specific traffic.

yes, that ~ correct.
that's why(among other reasons) i tend to leave it "off" in most devices with 8337"N" PHY/Switch.
table sizes, buffering amount implementation, amount of control and security issues - are major among them.
for similar reasons - that's why so popular "software only" config in ROS, unleashing True power of RouterOS, thus. nobody likes use "black box" technology they had (almost)no control over(and poorly-documented, usually).
so far i was more concerned about moving opposite edge ie "SlowPath" features, ie, proxy firewalls(native, like zorp, instead of webcache/squid mess with something else), rather than "hardware NAT".
but NAT in "N" 8337 chips are ~ works for those who feel need it(not me, but worth mention it).

p.s.
originally it was aimed for routers and switches(!!

with Very poor CPU/SoC to offload burden of, from shoulders and perhaps for ultra-low-power budget devices manufacturers found trade-off sane. atleast in past years(4-5yrs or so).

so far best "Hardware NAT" thing in mikrotik devices is... native FPU on SoC die, increasing math-intensive output Notably(including crypto,routing, etc). same about doubling amount of cores(and threads per core), that's why 1004k arch so Funny among ultra-cheap 32-bit MIPS.
and yes, i glad that MikroTik not rely much about "hardware NAT" marketing BS/gimmick and support that(by money)in future)aswell as faster and/or bigger L2 and Especially L1 caches, integrated memory controllers(starting from A72 and A35 - re-worked again in ARM).

my point here is: swithing for 8337 chip is Important and Very helpful for MikroTik, used very old/slow/vulnerable switch chips before.

y64xkuo · Wed Jan 13, 2016 11:18 am

Well, I agree that 16 MB total storage is too small. It would be nice if this could be increased to at least 32 MB. Is there a slot for Micro SD or something? And how will a upgrade be possible if you cannot transfer the file to the unit?

kiler129 · Wed Jan 13, 2016 2:58 pm

Is there a slot for Micro SD or something?

No, you can't. There're no mSD or USB port in hEX. It's a budget solution, which is suitable in a lot of situations.

how will a upgrade be possible if you cannot transfer the file to the unit?

RouterOS is upgradable in-place from RAM - update files are not saved on flash.

y64xkuo · Wed Jan 13, 2016 3:16 pm

how will a upgrade be possible if you cannot transfer the file to the unit?
RouterOS is upgradable in-place from RAM - update files are not saved on flash.

So if I transfer the file using WinBox, the file is placed in the RAM?

G2Dolphin · Wed Jan 13, 2016 4:54 pm

RouterOS is upgradable in-place from RAM - update files are not saved on flash.

Say that to hAP lite. :/

Wed Jan 13, 2016 5:58 pm

RouterOS is upgradable in-place from RAM - update files are not saved on flash.
Say that to hAP lite. :/

maybe because that hap lite uses smips packages which are the smaller (total 7 megabytes aprox )

i think is a good idea to reboot device before upgrade to free ram

kiler129 · Wed Jan 13, 2016 6:44 pm

Say that to hAP lite. :/

As far as I know you don't need flash space to update, even hAP lite. I always use autoupgrade option, because it's faster and more convenient than manually downloading a file and uploading it.
All of my devices are in some way connected to the internet, so it's not a problem.

G2Dolphin · Thu Jan 14, 2016 8:43 am

i think is a good idea to reboot device before upgrade to free ram

I'm not even talking about RAM. I had enough of it to update, but only 4k KB in NAND -- so it failed in downloading.
I have a mAP2n with "flash" folder -- no problems, what goes in root -- goes to RAM, but my hAP lite doesn't have that folder, and root belongs to NAND. So I need to netinstall almost every time I want to update it.

Thu Jan 14, 2016 9:36 am

You definitely have some other then default packages installed, with default bundle package everything is ok.

G2Dolphin · Thu Jan 14, 2016 2:11 pm

You definitely have some other then default packages installed, with default bundle package everything is ok.

Снимок.PNG

What I definitely have is a strange hAP lite out here. This is a good example of fresh NetInstall'ed device, but after some time HDD space isn't usual 8.2MB free, something near 4-5MB, and I just can't download an update.

Thu Jan 14, 2016 3:53 pm

just delete that package from files

in the package list use the check for updates button

off course be sure hap lite has internet access

y64xkuo · Thu Jan 14, 2016 5:07 pm

just delete that package from files

in the package list use the check for updates button

off course be sure hap lite has internet access

But if the storage had instead been 32 MB, then we wouldn't have this problem.

G2Dolphin · Thu Jan 14, 2016 6:12 pm

just delete that package from files

in the package list use the check for updates button

off course be sure hap lite has internet access

Please, don't count me as an idiot. I've specially installed "bugfix" 6.32.3 firmware to show people what's happening.
This is fresh hAP lite without any config, except dhcp-client on the ether1. It have internet out there, I've used that "Check for Updates" button and downloaded this latest firmware in "current" chain. You can see, what happens next. It downloads on the NAND memory. You can read on my previous message, why this can be bad.

Zorro · Thu Jan 14, 2016 8:15 pm

Is there a slot for Micro SD or something?
No, you can't. There're no mSD or USB port in hEX. It's a budget solution, which is suitable in a lot of situations.

how will a upgrade be possible if you cannot transfer the file to the unit?
RouterOS is upgradable in-place from RAM - update files are not saved on flash.

1. not exactly. people with rights hands and soldering experience - may install USB-portion HEX

not sure how/if it would work, but place for connector - quite notable on PCB.
2. yes. but only After upgrade started(all transfered files - stored in FLASH !!! which isn't wrong "in general" for RB devices, but for particular case(low space/resource/small storage)become Especially dangerous thing), which eventually may cause some issues, perhaps. so i thing it would be cool to had relevant "checkbox" in "system->settings/services" or "system->routerboard" menus to enable/disable that behavior to be Safer/secure from even remotely-possible issues/disasters in that field/context.

offtopic: i also found Quite insecure thats firmwares - downloaded from cloud storage Without any kind of (preferably TLS1.2 with fat 384-EC GCM thingy)https support :/
and generally using 3rd party companies/CDN for that - insecure by itself. but thats obviously not my business("just sayin").

kiler129 · Fri Jan 15, 2016 1:03 am

@Zorro: adressing your first issue you could always netinstall if you screw up

In case of remote locations you should, well, be careful since you're responsible.

Regarding downloading software from trustworthy source I think encryption is not required if software is properly signed using they private key. I'm sure they did that, but confirmation will be very helpful

Zorro · Fri Jan 15, 2016 1:35 am

@Zorro: adressing your first issue you could always netinstall if you screw up In case of remote locations you should, well, be careful since you're responsible.

Regarding downloading software from trustworthy source I think encryption is not required if software is properly signed using they private key. I'm sure they did that, but confirmation will be very helpful

in both cases - preventing such issues - much simpler and cost Much less pain/time/work in result.
IF someone care about them and prevent from happening, rather than struggle/fighting, when they finally happen.
as always that(not only in networking) - better to focus on "troubleshooting by making something "better-designed" than spend(usually Way more)fight windmills and -storm, disasters, easily prevented by common sense and engineering.
as for signatures check - how do you think, people - install OpenWRT (and other, way more bogus things on RB devices)?
no, its not mutually-exclusive things. quite contrary - signed packages/firmware and encrypted AND signed traffic, carrying them to consumers - are as equally important.
and yep, hashes 'recently in use' proven to be not so much "tamper-proof" and can be forged for malformed content in most cases.

jowos · Sun Feb 21, 2016 12:24 am

I bought hEX with a major goal to automatically connect to the CISCO AnyConnect VPN of my school. The only answer I got after searching through every possible tutorial/documentation is it can be done by installing openwrt in metaROUTER. Then I stumbled into this 16MB FLASH and got completely disappointed.

darkprocess · Sun Feb 21, 2016 2:47 am

So buy an openwrt router instead. But i don't know if openwrt supports anyconnect

pcunite · Wed Apr 06, 2016 6:55 am

MikroTik, please default to using 32MB of nand.

Wed Apr 06, 2016 8:15 am

Every new device should have at least 64MB ram and 128MB flash.

23q · Wed Sep 07, 2016 12:26 am

Every new device should have at least 64MB ram and 128MB flash.

https://routerboard.com/RB962UiGS-5HacT2HnT
Storage type FLASH
Storage size 16 MB
Suggested price $129!

Wed Sep 07, 2016 12:37 am

Well, so that is how it is.

My opinion was clearly written...

netflow · Sat Oct 01, 2016 4:07 pm

Mikrotik OVPN lack features => Solution would be to run OpenWRT in metarouter.
Oups but that's not possible with 16Mb even with a giant USB stick attached !

Hey Mikrotik, aiming to 80/20 is great except that in the end everyone might eventually be trapped in those missing 20% !

libor777 · Sun Sep 17, 2017 8:12 pm

Greetings,

solution for amateur:
connect by ftp to your HEX router and upload *.npk file. It do upload file to RAM, it not take any storage place (important is use base folder). Reboot HEX (from winbox or terminal) do upgrade software. It is help for everybody who want HEX router upgrade to bug fix only version.

Have a nice day.

lapsio · Mon Sep 18, 2017 1:07 am

@jowos @netflow - hEX is multicore device - it wouldn't run metarouter anyways just like CCR don't.

But I also don't like 16m storage. In fact - it's not really about storage bc idgaf but about storage expansion options - precisely why most devices don't have card slot and more importantly - why there's ANY limitation on sdcard. I mean - why the hell metarouter can't be set up on sdcard? it's just fat32/ext3 generic linux storage device. what's the deal then. it should be equal in functionality to internal storage - just like you _can_ set up swap partition or system partitions on usb drives in any linux (and most of other unixes). From *nix OS standpoint there's virtually no difference between SATA/M.2/USB (SAT)/pcie/NFS/whatever. So this limitation comes purely from ROS choices - just like Android mounts sdcard with "noexec" flag. But why do such thing in router? It's not device for retarded people who could harm themselves.

whitbread · Mon Sep 18, 2017 10:42 am

I won't buy any new Mikrotik with 16MB storage size!

Reasons are not hard to find:
- 2nd partition as a backup for config changes and / or updates
- local backup and config exports to store for a cpl of days
- updates without any problems (I know it works usually but not always)

smileymattj · Sat Dec 09, 2017 2:57 am

I purchased a hEX (RB750Gr3) router. The gigabit version, not the 100Mbps Lite version. I did know before hand it was 16MB, but didn't realize how tight it would be until using it.

The routers I compared to buy were:
RB750Gr3 (hEX)
RB2011
RB3011

I would have much rather bought the 3011, but due to space restraints the rackmount case design was too large for where it was going. So couldn't consider that option.
The 750Gr3 has faster CPU and more RAM than the 2011. Ports were not an issue, I'd much rather have the slightly higher performance. So I went with the hEX. The RB850Gx2 would have fit my needs better, but I totally forgot about it when selecting the router.

After a clean install of the latest bugfix RouterOS. It appeared to use 9 MB of the storage. Which leaves about 7 MB for configuration, etc.
After fully configuring it to my needs I was left with about 1.5 MB of free space. Meaning I couldn't backup my configuration to local storage. My configuration was roughly 5 MB in size.
I installed an SD card for backup purposes, and moved the log file to the SD. But with only 9% free storage and 0 files on the local (/flash), it is nail biting to put this into production for business purposes.

I've been using MikroTik's for about 10 years and they are great routers, rock solid. Wouldn't choose anything else over them. Although there isn't an issue, and I made it work. I'm sure it will work just fine, but it does make me nervous.

I think the hEX-Lite is perfectly fine to be at 16MB.
But if the person wants to spend a little extra and get the gigabit hEX version it should come with at least 32MB. The original RB750 & RB750G both had 64MB. I would even be ok with it costing $5USD or so more for the extra storage.
Also I think there should be a desktop version of the RB3011, like the RB2011 desktop case.

lapsio · Sat Dec 09, 2017 4:47 am

Also I think there should be a desktop version of the RB3011, like the RB2011 desktop case.

Agreed. There have been rumors that it's been actually planned but didn't come out due to insufficient resources availability. I'd totally get something like that tho

Maybe at least offer standalone desktop chassis for 3011 bought separately for few bucks? I'd totally pay those 20$ for desktop chassis.

Who is online