Mikrotik VDSL / DSL Modem?

davidcx · Fri Jun 01, 2018 11:35 am

I contacted Proscend regarding the VPI/VCI settings for the 180-T and was told unequivocally that the device does not support ADSL. I found this very strange as the data sheet does have the ADSL2+ specifications, so I asked for clarification and was again told that they do not have any devices that support ADSL.

This was Proscend's "Marketing & Sales Director" so one would think he would be able to talk authoritatively about the capabilities of his products. My guess is that they have quietly withdrawn this feature. At any rate I'm not deploying CPE devices in a mode that isn't supported by the manufacturer so it looks like we're back to no options for ADSL.

pe1chl · Fri Jun 01, 2018 12:05 pm

I think some people got it working with ADSL but there are limitations with the VPI/VCI setting. There is a couple of fixed settings that you
can access via a tagged VLAN and it is impossible to use it when the VPI/VCI you require is not in that list. So maybe there was some
misunderstanding when you inquired about that.

mabnz · Mon Jun 04, 2018 4:55 am

I've recently purchased this to use with ADSL, but I can't seem to get it working. The LED is green which seems to indicate SHOWTIME.

I've set up an interface on my CPE as VLAN 6 (matching VCI/VPI 0/100 which is what I need) and used a PPPoE client, but it doesn't receive any packets on the interface nor an IP address. Is it correct that I need to tag packets with a VLAN tag in order to get it working?

Has anyone used it with ADSL successfully, who could share their configuration?

pe1chl · Mon Jun 04, 2018 10:11 am

ADSL often uses ATM rather than PPPoE. But it depends on your particular provider.
You would need to ask your provider or ask around in a forum etc to find what exactly has to be done on your provider's network to setup the connection.
You need to tag your packets with VLAN 6 (i.e. you create a VLAN interface with tag 6 and parent sfp1) and then on that VLAN interface you need to
use the configuration required for your provider.

scampbell · Fri Jun 15, 2018 6:00 am

I've recently purchased this to use with ADSL, but I can't seem to get it working. The LED is green which seems to indicate SHOWTIME.

I've set up an interface on my CPE as VLAN 6 (matching VCI/VPI 0/100 which is what I need) and used a PPPoE client, but it doesn't receive any packets on the interface nor an IP address. Is it correct that I need to tag packets with a VLAN tag in order to get it working?

Has anyone used it with ADSL successfully, who could share their configuration?

We distribute the Metanoia V5311-T-R in New Zealand and are working on this with the manufacturers.

We have the V5311-T-R working now on NZ EUBA ADSL in a test environment currently. Once all tests are done we will contact customers directly with the necessary updates.

Regards,

Stuart Campbell

pe1chl · Fri Jun 15, 2018 12:04 pm

We distribute the Metanoia V5311-T-R in New Zealand and are working on this with the manufacturers.

We have the V5311-T-R working now on NZ EUBA ADSL in a test environment currently. Once all tests are done we will contact customers directly with the necessary updates.

What method do you use to read back the connection parameters and values in the test environment?
Do you have any contact with MikroTik support about it? Is there any indication that they will add some feature to RouterOS to readout these values while the SFP is in the router?

stef84 · Mon Jun 18, 2018 1:26 pm

Hello everybody.

In my country they are installing FTTC fiber optic from TIM and I would like to foresee an eventual upgrade.
I am looking for a VDSL2 modem to connect to my Mikrotik devices in my network and I have seen the Proscend 180-T product that I could connect to my RB2011's SFP port.
do you know if it could be compatible with Fibra TIM (O Fastweb or OpenFiber)?
Someone in Italy has carried out these tests?

Thanks in advance

Andre81 · Wed Jun 20, 2018 4:46 pm

Hello everybody.

In my country they are installing FTTC fiber optic from TIM and I would like to foresee an eventual upgrade.
I am looking for a VDSL2 modem to connect to my Mikrotik devices in my network and I have seen the Proscend 180-T product that I could connect to my RB2011's SFP port.
do you know if it could be compatible with Fibra TIM (O Fastweb or OpenFiber)?
Someone in Italy has carried out these tests?

Thanks in advance

Hi Stef84,

we have installed the 180-T with TIM FTTC many times, and all succesfully.
The speed is lower than Technicolor modem (especially if you are far from the DSLAM, example 40Mb vs 50Mb but if you are near DSLAM the speed is similar to the Technicolor modem), but it works perfectly.

Bye bye

A.

pe1chl · Wed Jun 20, 2018 5:09 pm

But that is so slow. I have tried it as well and I too get only 40Mb but with a native VDSL2 modem I get 100Mb.
Unfortunately I still cannot look in the SFP to see what VDSL profile it has negotiated and what the actual and attainable bitrates are.
So with these modules (and with this level of MikroTIk support) we are at a dead end.
It is unfortunate, as this solution looked so promising. VDSL support for MikroTik routers without them having to design dedicated router/modems like others offer.
But apparently the interest in VDSL in the Baltic states is low (everyone has FTTH), and the high interest in some other countries is no incentive for MikroTIk to help those users...
They rather work on Kid Control, Detect Internet and IP cloud

stef84 · Thu Jun 21, 2018 1:27 pm

Hello everybody.

In my country they are installing FTTC fiber optic from TIM and I would like to foresee an eventual upgrade.
I am looking for a VDSL2 modem to connect to my Mikrotik devices in my network and I have seen the Proscend 180-T product that I could connect to my RB2011's SFP port.
do you know if it could be compatible with Fibra TIM (O Fastweb or OpenFiber)?
Someone in Italy has carried out these tests?

Thanks in advance
Hi Stef84,

we have installed the 180-T with TIM FTTC many times, and all succesfully.
The speed is lower than Technicolor modem (especially if you are far from the DSLAM, example 40Mb vs 50Mb but if you are near DSLAM the speed is similar to the Technicolor modem), but it works perfectly.

Bye bye

A.

Thanks for the reply. I thought this modem was better than the Technicolor and that it will reach higher speeds than the TIM modem.
If you tell me so, I do not think it is convenient to buy, rather better to use the original modem in bridge mode and run pppoe authentication with mikrotik.

Thanks again

marlow · Thu Jun 21, 2018 1:29 pm

Thanks for the reply. I thought this modem was better than the Technicolor and that it will reach higher speeds than the TIM modem.
If you tell me so, I do not think it is convenient to buy, rather better to use the original modem in bridge mode and run pppoe authentication with mikrotik.

I think it very much depends on what vendor DSLAM you are connecting to.

OpenEIR here in Ireland are using the Huawei platform and we've had no issues with the SFPs sold by https://www.mikrotik-shop.de/ ... 100 Mbit/s with vectoring on a couple locations.

/M

scampbell · Mon Jun 25, 2018 6:03 am

We distribute the Metanoia V5311-T-R in New Zealand and are working on this with the manufacturers.

We have the V5311-T-R working now on NZ EUBA ADSL in a test environment currently. Once all tests are done we will contact customers directly with the necessary updates.
What method do you use to read back the connection parameters and values in the test environment?
Do you have any contact with MikroTik support about it? Is there any indication that they will add some feature to RouterOS to readout these values while the SFP is in the router?

We built an L2 tunnel back to the factory and all the magic happened there so unfortunately we have no visibility.

There is an API available by subscription - it would be nice if MK directly integrated this but I suspect the cost is too high.

nefer · Mon Jul 02, 2018 7:32 pm

Hello,
I just received one of the Proscend 180-T units from mikrotik-shop.de ...
the unit seems to be working fine, according to the leaflet the connection with the DSLAM works fine, solid orange and green leds, but in mikrotik i get an Rx Lose status and it doesn't work.
what could be the issue?

marlow · Tue Jul 03, 2018 12:36 pm

What Mikrotik device are you using ?

Do you have it in a SFP or a 1G/10G port ?

What version of RouterOS does your device have ?

It won't working in 10G ports and for some of the devices you may have to set 1G full-duplex and disable autonegotiation.

/M

nefer · Tue Jul 03, 2018 7:20 pm

What Mikrotik device are you using ?

Do you have it in a SFP or a 1G/10G port ?

What version of RouterOS does your device have ?

It won't working in 10G ports and for some of the devices you may have to set 1G full-duplex and disable autonegotiation.

/M

Hi marlow,
I have a CCR1009-7G-1C-1S+... I solved the problem, like you said I could not use the 10G port which is the one I was trying to use.... setting it to 1G manually didn't work as well... then I put the module on the combo SFP port and it started working perfectly, still disabling autonegotiation.
Initially it worked even with autonegotiation but then after a reboot i had to disable it.
So changing the port was the trick.
Works fine even if it does not support profile 35b which is the one my provider gives me, so it connects at a much lower speed.

By the way the routeros version i have is the latest 6.42.5

Thank you for your help.

By the way for the other italians on this thread I have a wind-infostrada connection which probably still is a tim line...

marlow · Tue Jul 03, 2018 7:44 pm

Works fine even if it does not support profile 35b which is the one my provider gives me, so it connects at a much lower speed.

It works with 17a and 30a. I didn't expect it to work with 35b, but it would have been nice, if it did.

Good you got it working. And yes .. it definatly doesn't like the SFP+ ports.

/M

nefer · Tue Jul 03, 2018 8:32 pm

in about 24 hours of testing I found out that performace drops a lot for some reason.
Having no way to check the dsl speeds it connects at, I had to rely on speedtest.net and normal usage.
Yesterday night after finally making it work i had about 70-72 mbits speed down, while today it had just crawled to 0-6mbits.... i double tested this by reconnecting the telco cpe and speeds were back to normal so i'm not sure what was going on...
also in the logs of the mikrotik i spotted this: "fcs error on link" on the sfp interface... only 2 times but still doesn't sound good...

also this might be unrelated but on another interface i have in a bridge on the lan side i get this : bridge port received a packet with own address as source address, probably loop.
the mac address is the one of the bridge, but the interface it comes from has a different mac so not sure what's going on.
despite this it all seems to work fine...

marlow · Tue Jul 03, 2018 8:44 pm

also in the logs of the mikrotik i spotted this: "fcs error on link" on the sfp interface... only 2 times but still doesn't sound good...

This is a Mikrotik issue. You can ignore that.

also this might be unrelated but on another interface i have in a bridge on the lan side i get this : bridge port received a packet with own address as source address, probably loop.

This is ALSO a Mikrotik issue, which you can ignore. I raised a ticket with them about that, which they weren't interested in solving.

I've been using 2 or 3 of those SFPs in a CCR1016s in parallel (2 locations) for months without speed degradation. My provider is using the Huawei platform. So I'm not sure, what's going on with yours.

/M

breili · Tue Jul 03, 2018 11:17 pm

I contacted Proscend regarding the VPI/VCI settings for the 180-T and was told unequivocally that the device does not support ADSL. I found this very strange as the data sheet does have the ADSL2+ specifications, so I asked for clarification and was again told that they do not have any devices that support ADSL.

This was Proscend's "Marketing & Sales Director" so one would think he would be able to talk authoritatively about the capabilities of his products. My guess is that they have quietly withdrawn this feature. At any rate I'm not deploying CPE devices in a mode that isn't supported by the manufacturer so it looks like we're back to no options for ADSL.

I don't know about Proscend, however when I got my Versatek bundle I was curious if it would work on a UK BT ADSL line. To my surprise it worked (note that the SFP isn't certified with BT requirements SIN346/SIN498 as far as I know).
The reason I was surprised is that the Metanoia spec sheet (downloadable pdf) has "30a without ADSL backward" in, which I read as either VDSL 30a or ADSL support but not both. (the Versatek provided spec sheet for the bundle states that both is supported while the CE version doesn't mention ADSL at all).

breili · Tue Jul 03, 2018 11:29 pm

We built an L2 tunnel back to the factory and all the magic happened there so unfortunately we have no visibility.

There is an API available by subscription - it would be nice if MK directly integrated this but I suspect the cost is too high.

What kind of magic happens there? Just monitoring or does it configure the SFPs too (or even allow firmware updates)?

Do you have more details on the API? Any indication of cost, e.g. would be likely workable for an end user with a few of the SFPs?

TechnicalVault · Mon Jul 09, 2018 9:06 pm

Hello,
I just received one of the Proscend 180-T units from mikrotik-shop.de ...
the unit seems to be working fine, according to the leaflet the connection with the DSLAM works fine, solid orange and green leds, but in mikrotik i get an Rx Lose status and it doesn't work.
what could be the issue?

I've had the same issue with an ALLNET ALl4781 and a RB3011. The ISP side diagnostics and LEDS tell me that I've synced successfully but the MikroTik unit has yet to pick up on this and it still stuck in "Rx Lose" status. I've logged a support ticket, and we'll see what happens. This seems to be the same issue as someone is having with the 1000BASE-LX/LH (GLC-LH-SM) (viewtopic.php?t=122917) so I'm guessing it's an issue on the MikroTik side.

jabuzzard · Tue Jul 10, 2018 5:08 pm

We built an L2 tunnel back to the factory and all the magic happened there so unfortunately we have no visibility.

There is an API available by subscription - it would be nice if MK directly integrated this but I suspect the cost is too high.
What kind of magic happens there? Just monitoring or does it configure the SFPs too (or even allow firmware updates)?

Do you have more details on the API? Any indication of cost, e.g. would be likely workable for an end user with a few of the SFPs?

There is if you read the Metanoia patent (http://www.freepatentsonline.com/20160241293.pdf) something that they call the Ethernet Boot and Management protocol that you can use to change settings and read the status by exchanging inband ethernet packets with the device. There is in theory a piece of Windows software that can be used to interface with the device, but from what I have seen on the internet it does not work (see https://forum.turris.cz/t/vdsl-sfp-bridge-modem/1296/21). In theory if one could get that working it would be trivial to use Wireshark to snoop on the device and write some replacement software to get stats, status of the device, change settings etc. on Linux which would could then be added to RouterOS, or even Ubiquiti/pfSense if that is your poison.

jabuzzard · Wed Jul 11, 2018 1:33 am

I don't know about Proscend, however when I got my Versatek bundle I was curious if it would work on a UK BT ADSL line. To my surprise it worked (note that the SFP isn't certified with BT requirements SIN346/SIN498 as far as I know).

Note that while the U.K. remains in the E.U. BT SIN498 is illegal, as it is in direct contravention of article three paragraph 1 of EU regulation 2015/2120, which states :-

End-users shall have the right to access and distribute information and content, use and provide applications and services, and use terminal equipment of their choice, irrespective of the end-user’s or provider’s location or the location, origin or destination of the information, content, application or service, via their internet access service.

The opening notes for the regulation note that terminal equipment needs to comply with commission Directive 2008/63/EC. What directive 2008/63/EC is define a the conformance tests that a device must pass in order to connected to an telecommunications network in the E.U. It's not much of a single market if Mikrotik for example needed to get their VDSL SFP certified individually in all 28 countries of the E.U. which used to be the state of play.

dohmniq · Thu Jul 19, 2018 8:31 pm

So are there any other suppliers for the Proscend 180-T apart from mikrotik-shop.de? I'm not even sure that's the same model on sale on that website due to generic pictures and datasheet.
I'm based in the UK if that helps. Hoping to install into a hAP ac with a fibre cabinet about 100m away, not vectoring or G.Fast enabled.

jabuzzard · Fri Jul 20, 2018 6:28 pm

These are all the places that I am aware of through Google searches of actually selling the device in one guise or another in Europe.

https://www.mikrotik-shop.de/Interfaces ... :2192.html
https://shop.meconet.de/Hardware-Einzel ... 17361.html
https://www.nsys.gr/en/proscend-180-t-v ... telco.html
https://www.amazon.de/dp/B07C4SGV63/

Personally I am thinking of going with the last one as this is the Allnet version which has by all accounts been through testing to get it working in Germany which presumably means it has been tested for compliance with Directive 2008/63/EC. Consequently I would be able to tell BT/Openreach to go shove it where the sun doesn't shine should they cause start making a fuss.

What I really want to know before I purchase it is can you get hold of the software that allegedly configures it, reads stats. One suspects that the person reporting it does not work was using a specific version of Windows (likely 10), and if you mess about somewhat trying different versions it will work. I can then run wireshark against it and write something that will work under Linux/Unix, and hence on a range of firewalls (MikroTik, Ubiquiti, pfSense etc.)

smartdev · Fri Jul 27, 2018 7:52 pm

I have given one of these a go in the UK in an RB3011, however I don't seem to get sync. I just get the amber light and the light on the right flashing green.Tried turning off auto negotiation,rebooting ect. Any ideas? Anyone got these working in the UK?

dohmniq · Mon Jul 30, 2018 9:24 am

I have given one of these a go in the UK in an RB3011, however I don't seem to get sync. I just get the amber light and the light on the right flashing green.Tried turning off auto negotiation,rebooting ect. Any ideas? Anyone got these working in the UK?

Which exact device model did you buy? Previous posts suggest that ALLNET devices only work with ALLNET DSLAMs for example. Which UK ISP are you with? Huawei or ECI DSLAM?
Other posters have mentioned no issues or many issues with RB3011, some say SFP is more reliable than SFP+, and it seems you already know about turning off auto-negotiation, etc.
Good luck and post back with results so others can gauge what works where.

smartdev · Mon Jul 30, 2018 1:03 pm

I have a Versatek VX-160CE, however it shows up in the 3011 as a Proscend 180-T. The ISP is PlusNet. I don't know what DSLAM is in place, ill go and have a look at the cab as I think they are physically different?

marlow · Mon Jul 30, 2018 1:29 pm

I have a Versatek VX-160CE, however it shows up in the 3011 as a Proscend 180-T. The ISP is PlusNet. I don't know what DSLAM is in place, ill go and have a look at the cab as I think they are physically different?

The cab doesn't necessarily come with the DSLAM. Could be anything in there.

Best way to identify what your provider uses is checking with a router, that gives you those details. The Fritz!Box for example reports back, what manufacturer and firmware version is running on the DSLAM. Broadcom in my case, which is what for example Huawei use. Most of the time, you need to know a tech in the telco to know, what they use.

/M

dohmniq · Mon Jul 30, 2018 2:02 pm

I have a Versatek VX-160CE, however it shows up in the 3011 as a Proscend 180-T.

That's interesting...

Marlow, you previously said you bought the device from mikrotik-shop.de - did that also show up as a Proscend 180-T or something else?
I'm trying to narrow down what might work when my nearby fibre cab goes live. Looks like my only ISP options will be BT or PlusNet.
It does look like meconet.de and mikrotik-shop.de might be the same company so I suspect it's the same device as smartdev but it would be helpful to confirm so I can place an order.

rushlife · Thu Aug 09, 2018 9:51 am

xDSL modem from Mikrotik would be great....

pe1chl · Thu Aug 09, 2018 10:09 am

xDSL modem from Mikrotik would be great....

No, it would be a can of worms. Every country, every provider uses slightly different setups and wellknown DSL
modem manufacturers make different firmware versions for different situations. You see that happening here
in this thread, where a German distributor has had contact with the manufacturer and has a special version made.

However, what would be great: Support from MikroTik for the protocol used to display the connection information
of these VDSL SFP modules so you can see the training speed, operating mode, SNR etc. That would be very valuable
to the DSL users and MikroTik would not have to deal with the particular issues of DSL.

marlow · Thu Aug 09, 2018 6:47 pm

I have a Versatek VX-160CE, however it shows up in the 3011 as a Proscend 180-T.
That's interesting...

Marlow, you previously said you bought the device from mikrotik-shop.de - did that also show up as a Proscend 180-T or something else?
I'm trying to narrow down what might work when my nearby fibre cab goes live. Looks like my only ISP options will be BT or PlusNet.
It does look like meconet.de and mikrotik-shop.de might be the same company so I suspect it's the same device as smartdev but it would be helpful to confirm so I can place an order.

No. They have their own stickers on the SFPs, but they come up as Proscend 180-T in the SFP information in Mikrotik.

/M

Kaldek · Mon Aug 27, 2018 2:20 am

Any known issues with power consumption using these in a CRS125? The supplied power supply is 12v 2.4 amps I believe. I have a CRS125-24G-1S so there's no WiFi.

marlow · Mon Aug 27, 2018 4:07 am

Any known issues with power consumption using these in a CRS125? The supplied power supply is 12v 2.4 amps I believe. I have a CRS125-24G-1S so there's no WiFi.

The factory supplied power supply is 24V 0.8A. Either way, I don't think you'll see any issues.

I've ran those on CCR1016, HAP ac and 951s. Currently testing 2 of them in a CRS106-1C-5S. No issues to speak of.

/M

Buster2 · Sat Sep 01, 2018 2:02 am

Hi folks,

very interesting thread

In Germany DTAG (Telekom) started to sell "super vectoring" (G.993.2 Annex Q, profile 35b, DTAG requirements on page 62). Are there any experiences out there with modems discussed in this thread? How future proof are these devices? Could there be something like a firmware update to support new profiles or do we need new hardware then?

Regards.

marlow · Sat Sep 01, 2018 2:05 am

In Germany DTAG (Telekom) started to sell "super vectoring" (G.993.2 Annex Q, profile 35b, DTAG requirements on page 62). Are there any experiences out there with modems discussed in this thread? How future proof are these devices? Could there be something like a firmware update to support new profiles or do we need new hardware then?

Not. The Allnet ones can handle 20b supervectoring, but not 25b. Tested with AVM Fritz!Box 7582 and 7590. Against the Master sfp of the Client/Master pair.

Haven't had the chance of testing them on a 25b supervectoring DSLAM yet.

/M

mistry7 · Sat Sep 01, 2018 9:04 am

For 35b you have to wait for this one:

https://www.proscend.com/images/Downloa ... 51011s.pdf

pe1chl · Sat Sep 01, 2018 10:30 am

For 35b you have to wait for this one:

https://www.proscend.com/images/Downloa ... 51011s.pdf

Interesting that the development goes on. Next would be a model that supports line bonding?
It is used here to get even higher speeds: 2 lines in parallel with ethernet-level load balancing to get 2x the speed.

However, I have abandoned the use of these things as there is apparently no support forthcoming from MikroTik to view the status and it is not acceptable to run connections "in the blind".
So external modems it will have to be...

marlow · Sat Sep 01, 2018 12:41 pm

There is no point in developing these for line bonding.

First of all, they get hot enough as they are handling 1 phone line. You also have to consider power consumption of the sfp, which is high as it is.

Secondly, there are no problems running multiple in for example a CCR1016 and then either run MLPPP (If your provider allows you to establish multiple lines with the same credentials) or the way we use them is with bonded EoIP tunnels and baby jumbo frames, which works excellent for bonding, of you are in control of both ends.

/M

Sent from my SM-N950F using Tapatalk

ingdaka · Sat Sep 01, 2018 1:30 pm

In the future??? Is DSL the future, I thing PON and SFP is the future!

marlow · Sat Sep 01, 2018 4:03 pm

In the future??? Is DSL the future, I thing PON and SFP is the future!

There are lots of Telcos, that still build on their copper plant and are ignoring the migration to FTTH. Hey .. German Telekom is one of those, that still haven't got around to fiber thinking.

The biggest joke of that is large areas in eastern Germany, where the copper networks were so bad, that when they replaced it, they put fiber in. But they had not invested in technology to deliver broadband on fiber, so when DSL came around, those on fiber couldn't get broadband. Don't think they've fixed that yet

... 20 years later.

Here in Ireland we got (sort of) lucky, in that we have 3 large FTTH deployments and lots of smaller ones. And one of the larger ones now covers 180k+ rural homes with FTTH. But VDSL is still a big thing, especially in urban areas, and 25b supervectoring is being implemented before the end of the year here. So support for that would be good to have.

/M

pe1chl · Sat Sep 01, 2018 7:30 pm

Secondly, there are no problems running multiple in for example a CCR1016 and then either run MLPPP (If your provider allows you to establish multiple lines with the same credentials) or the way we use them is with bonded EoIP tunnels and baby jumbo frames, which works excellent for bonding, of you are in control of both ends.

Bonding is an option offered by the ISPs here (as part of their competition with cable and fiber which offer a lot higher rates) and it is not using MLPPP.
It is balancing at the ethernet level and a single PPPoE connection is running over the combined link.
For the subscriber it is a single connection with a single address but with double speed.
There are a couple of existing external DSL modem/routers that support bonding and the only visible difference is that they use all four wires of the RJ11 line connector.
I don't know if there are two single-line DSL chips or a different special dual-line DSL chip in them.

pe1chl · Sat Sep 01, 2018 7:36 pm

There are lots of Telcos, that still build on their copper plant and are ignoring the migration to FTTH. Hey .. German Telekom is one of those, that still haven't got around to fiber

The issue is not the equipment but the cables running to the homes. E.g. where I live there is fiber to streetcabinets that offer DSL to the homes, and I get 100/30 Mbps
over a single Vectored VDSL2 line. And I could have that extended by using 35b profile AND by using bonding, so the speed can be about quadrupled.

Wiring fiber to the individual homes, while being done all over the country, is expensive and not as easy as using the existing copper wiring infrastructure.
Usually it is only done with subsidy from the municipality or a housing council. The Telco/ISP by itself will not do it.
(of course you can get individual fiber but it has to be paid at cost of installation which is usually about 50 euro/meter of digging)

marlow · Sat Sep 01, 2018 9:31 pm

Wiring fiber to the individual homes, while being done all over the country, is expensive and not as easy as using the existing copper wiring infrastructure.
Usually it is only done with subsidy from the municipality or a housing council. The Telco/ISP by itself will not do it.
(of course you can get individual fiber but it has to be paid at cost of installation which is usually about 50 euro/meter of digging)

Of course it's expensive to replace existing copper infrastructure with fiber. No question there. And thats why DSL isn't dead.

But i've seen scenarios where german telecom even has rolled new copper out instead of going fiber. And that's outright stupid.

/M

msatter · Sat Sep 01, 2018 10:07 pm

Copper perfectly suited to be used in closely build area's and over cable 1Gbit/s is already used and VDSL is also available in higher speeds.

Fiber is well suited to cover long distances of 20+ km and here in the Netherlands it is more and more used for people living outside the cities. The people run their self the bundeling of the interest people.

A bad thing is when there are enough people interested the big telecom firms try to torpedo the iniative by offering their solution the never will be implemented.

dohmniq · Wed Sep 12, 2018 1:48 pm

However, I have abandoned the use of these things as there is apparently no support forthcoming from MikroTik to view the status and it is not acceptable to run connections "in the blind".
So external modems it will have to be...

So do you have one you're willing to sell and ship to UK? Email me at dofrotest123@gmail.com as this board doesn't seem to support direct messaging?!

pe1chl · Wed Sep 12, 2018 7:21 pm

I am not going to ship mine as I am not certain it is 100% working. (the past 2 experiments failed to result in link while that worked before)
However, you can easily order it from FMS Internetservice GmbH in Germany.

arfoll · Sun Sep 23, 2018 12:31 am

I bought a ALLNET ALL4781-VDSL2-SFP for my VDSL2 17a G.Vector (ITU G.993.5) line using 1&1 in germany. It's sold as a 100Mb/s VDSL2 line and syncs at around 109Mb/s on a fritzbox 7412.

The modem synced fine in my RB2011 green light went solid in less than a minute. After some confusion on the PPPOE details (eventually got them with packet captures via the fritz.box diag tools) I was able to get to it "Link established" by having the PPPOE client connect to VLAN7 on the SFP interface. That got me to "link established". Then messing with the MTU values to set it to 1492 got me to "Authenticated" in the PPPOE client and I could scan and find a service and mac.

However, I didn't manage to go further (which I assume is the 'connected' stage), the PPPOE client just goes in a loop and tries to reconnect after 1 minute. I'm a bit out of ideas but I feel like I'm really close so any help is welcome!

dohmniq · Tue Nov 13, 2018 4:58 pm

I finally have a FTTC connection provided by UK ISP "SSE" so now I can post an update, which is really a request for help

With the ISP-supplied router/modem (a Technicolor TG589vac v2) everything works as expected and specifically I can send 1500-byte pings (i.e. 1500 IP packet size) with don't-fragment bit set successfully to/from my internet server. (I'll call these "full size pings"). So we know my ISP supports RFC4638 / baby-jumbos.

If I connect my hAP ac running RouterOS v6.43.4 to a TG589 LAN port then full-size pings still work OK.

If I set the TG589 into bridge mode, where the TG589 only handles the VDSL side (including VLAN tagging required for UK FTTC network) and the hAP does PPPoE then it partially works:

/interface pppoe-client add add-default-route=yes disabled=no interface=ether5 keepalive-timeout=disabled max-mru=1500 max-mtu=1500 name=SSE password=PASSWORD profile=pppoe-client-default use-peer-dns=yes user=USERNAME@ISP

13:59:13 pppoe,ppp,info SSE: initializing... 
13:59:13 pppoe,ppp,info SSE: connecting... 
13:59:13 pppoe,debug,packet ether5: sent PADI to FF:FF:FF:FF:FF:FF 
13:59:13 pppoe,debug,packet     session-id=0x0000 
13:59:13 pppoe,debug,packet     host-uniq=0x15b0001 
13:59:13 pppoe,debug,packet     service-name= 
13:59:13 pppoe,debug,packet     ppp-max-payload=1500 
13:59:13 pppoe,debug,packet ether5: rcvd PADO from 2A:8A:1C:EC:7C:29 
13:59:13 pppoe,debug,packet     session-id=0x0000 
13:59:13 pppoe,debug,packet     ac-name=nge001.clc-re0 
13:59:13 pppoe,debug,packet     host-uniq=0x15b0001 
13:59:13 pppoe,debug,packet     ppp-max-payload=1500 
13:59:13 pppoe,debug,packet     service-name= 
13:59:13 pppoe,debug,packet     ac-cookie=1e 3f 7b 3c df 1e fe 44 ba 13 e9 34 fc 3e 7a 62 
13:59:13 pppoe,debug,packet ether5: sent PADR to 2A:8A:1C:EC:7C:29 
13:59:13 pppoe,debug,packet     session-id=0x0000 
13:59:13 pppoe,debug,packet     host-uniq=0x15b0002 
13:59:13 pppoe,debug,packet     service-name= 
13:59:13 pppoe,debug,packet     ppp-max-payload=1500 
13:59:13 pppoe,debug,packet     ac-cookie=1e 3f 7b 3c df 1e fe 44 ba 13 e9 34 fc 3e 7a 62 
13:59:13 pppoe,debug,packet ether5: rcvd PADS from 2A:8A:1C:EC:7C:29 
13:59:13 pppoe,debug,packet     session-id=0x015c 
13:59:13 pppoe,debug,packet     service-name= 
13:59:13 pppoe,debug,packet     host-uniq=0x15b0002 
13:59:13 pppoe,debug,packet     ppp-max-payload=1500 
13:59:13 pppoe,debug,packet     ac-name=nge001.clc-re0 
13:59:13 pppoe,debug,packet     ac-cookie=1e 3f 7b 3c df 1e fe 44 ba 13 e9 34 fc 3e 7a 62 
... then LCP, IPIP, etc.

The hAP doesn't want to create a PPPoE session with 1500 MTU:

/interface print where type="pppoe-out"
Flags: D - dynamic, X - disabled, R - running, S - slave 
 #     NAME                                TYPE       ACTUAL-MTU L2MTU  MAX-L2MTU MAC-ADDRESS      
 0  R  SSE                                 pppoe-out        1480

The hAP ethernet port connected to the TG589 has MTU set to 1512. I've tried setting various pppoe-client settings like "max-mtu" and "max-mru" to 1500. Even if I set the "pppoe-out" interface's MTU to 1500 it reverts back to 1480 after a few seconds.

Trying to offload more work onto the hAP just makes things worse for me.
With VLAN tagging turned off on the TG589 and a vlan interface created on the hAP then PPPoE from the hAP doesn't work at all:

/interface vlan add interface=ether5 mtu=1512 name=VDSL-vlan vlan-id=101 arp=disabled
/interface pppoe-client set [ find name=SSE ] interface=VDSL-vlan

I've no idea why because the "PADI" packets sent have the correct vlan ID but no "PADO" responses arrive:

19:17:12 pppoe,ppp,info SSE: initializing... 
19:17:12 pppoe,ppp,info SSE: connecting... 
19:17:12 pppoe,debug,packet VDSL-vlan: sent PADI to FF:FF:FF:FF:FF:FF 
19:17:12 pppoe,debug,packet     session-id=0x0000 
19:17:12 pppoe,debug,packet     host-uniq=0x13a0001 
19:17:12 pppoe,debug,packet     service-name= 
19:17:12 pppoe,debug,packet     ppp-max-payload=1500 
19:17:13 pppoe,debug,packet VDSL-vlan: sent PADI to FF:FF:FF:FF:FF:FF 
19:17:13 pppoe,debug,packet     session-id=0x0000 
19:17:13 pppoe,debug,packet     host-uniq=0x13a0001 
19:17:13 pppoe,debug,packet     service-name= 
19:17:13 pppoe,debug,packet     ppp-max-payload=1500

The ideal final setup is with the Proscend 180-T in the SFP port in the hAP:

/interface ethernet set [ find default-name=sfp1 ] speed=1Gbps arp=disabled auto-negotiation=no mtu=1512
/interface vlan set [ find name=VDSL-vlan ] set interface=sfp1

As other people have said, setting speed=1Gbps and auto-negotiation=no gives the interface "running" state.
The green LED on the Proscend goes solid so I guess DSL synchronization is OK.
Again, no "PADO" responses arrive when I try PPPoE.

I do have a couple of RB260GS with also feature an SFP port so might try some tests using that.

So I guess I'm asking for feedback on:

Known working/broken RouterOS devices, e.g. hAP ac works, hAP ac2 broken, RB260GS
Known working/broken RouterOS versions, e.g. 6.43.4 works, 6.40.1 broken
Confirmation/config examples of PPPoE with vlan tagging, particularly with 1500 MTU allowing full-size pings

Other related threads:
PPPoE MTU problem
PPPoE connection to UK BT ADSL, MTU with RFC 4638 which mentions RouterOS RFC4638 support since 6.33!
PPPoE RFC4638 problem. Not seeing 1500 MTU on pppoe-client?
More investigation into Mikrotik PPPoE negotiated MTUs

pe1chl · Tue Nov 13, 2018 7:34 pm

Using 1500-byte MTU with PPPoE is only possible when the ISP and the modem supports RFC4638.
When one of them doesn't, the router reverts to the safe MTU of 1480. However when manually configuring it should be
possible to get MTU 1492, when the modem at least supports VLAN tagging. When not, maybe 1488.
You cannot force the matter by setting higher values without the support. It will not work and/or it will crash the modem.
(in case of an AVM FritzBox in bridge mode it does that)

dohmniq · Tue Nov 13, 2018 8:41 pm

The ISP definitely supports RFC4638 as using the TG589 for VDSL+PPPoE allows non-fragmented 1500-byte pings. (I say "ISP" but it's probably true for any ISP using OpenReach network).
RouterOS allegedly has RFC4638 support since version 6.33, albeit with some bug-fixes since then!

But you have given me an idea to test:

Maybe with the TG589 in "bridge mode", doing only VDSL (and VLAN tagging) but not PPPoE, the TG589's ethernet port's MTU is only 1500?
This could mean that although everything is set up OK in RouterOS, the PPPoE negotiation fails somehow.
Should be easy enough to test next time I have some spare hours to rearrange everything again.

rendrag · Tue Nov 13, 2018 9:14 pm

Couple of thoughts..

1) Re the TG589: make sure you have also increased the MTU on the TG589, or you're simply not going to be able to use packets larger than 1500 with it. You can't JUST increase packet size on the Mikrotik side..

2) Whoever said turning off autonegotiate was the way to go with the SFP's gave you a bum steer. I've never had this work. The only way I can get the 180-T SFP's to work on my CRS-109's, is to power the CRS109 on, wait for it to boot, THEN insert the 180-T. If the 180T is installed when the Mikrotik boots, it will never pass traffic even after the sync light goes solid green.

Cheers,

DG

pe1chl · Tue Nov 13, 2018 10:58 pm

To have MTU of 1500 on PPPoE you need to have MTU at least 1512 on ethernet (or in case VLAN tags are not counted at least 1508).
When it is not possible to raise MTU on ethernet (both on router and modem) to this value the RFC4638 protocol will detect this and the MTU of the PPPoE link will be lower.
I have had working MTU 1500 connection both with the SFP discussed in this thread and with Draytek Vigor 130 external VDSL2 modem which supports RFC4638.

Apparently your modem does not support RFC4638 and it will fail.
You are lucky that it just lowers the MTU (the RFC4638 does a ping of a large packet and it does not receive the reply), when doing the same with an AVM Fritzbox the large
packets just crash the modem and it will reboot and re-train. Likely some buffer overflow somewhere.

dohmniq · Wed Nov 14, 2018 2:37 pm

Update: online!

Probably the most critical aspect was this gem by rendrag:

2) Whoever said turning off autonegotiate was the way to go with the SFP's gave you a bum steer. I've never had this work. The only way I can get the 180-T SFP's to work on my CRS-109's, is to power the CRS109 on, wait for it to boot, THEN insert the 180-T. If the 180T is installed when the Mikrotik boots, it will never pass traffic even after the sync light goes solid green.

If you turn OFF auto-negotiate then you will see the "R" running flag but no packets are ever received from the SFP interface.
If you turn ON auto-negotiate, and maybe set advertise=1000M-full as needed, then the next time you insert the modem into the SFP cage it will work!
It's not enough to set advertise and auto-negotiate=on with the device already in place, it needs to be re-inserted after these settings have been changed.
Also, with my hAP ac running 6.43.4 the SFP interface will not work after a reboot, it will again need to be re-inserted.
(I'm about to raise a support ticket for that with supouts)

On the PPPoE front, I set the SFP interface's MTU to 1598 (easily enough for PPPoE + VLAN overhead) and the vlan's MTU to 1560 (easily enough for PPPoE overhead).
The other pppoe-client settings were max-mtu=1500 max-mru=1500, leaving mrru=disabled.

Really glad I don't have to use the locked-down TG589 as a glorified modem.

pe1chl · Wed Nov 14, 2018 3:55 pm

If you turn OFF auto-negotiate then you will see the "R" running flag but no packets are ever received from the SFP interface.
If you turn ON auto-negotiate, and maybe set advertise=1000M-full as needed, then the next time you insert the modem into the SFP cage it will work!

O that is interesting, that must be some bug/feature introduced in RouterOS recently!
When I first received my SFP, it worked fine with auto-negotiate off. I had 1500 byte MTU all working (same as how you wrote above) and the only problem was I did not get my expected line speed and there is no way to monitor why.
Recently I tried the SFP again and same problem as you write: nothing received. I feared I had damaged the SFP somehow and put it aside.
Now I will try again with what you describe.

rendrag · Thu Nov 15, 2018 12:37 am

O that is interesting, that must be some bug/feature introduced in RouterOS recently!
When I first received my SFP, it worked fine with auto-negotiate off. I had 1500 byte MTU all working (same as how you wrote above) and the only problem was I did not get my expected line speed and there is no way to monitor why.
Recently I tried the SFP again and same problem as you write: nothing received. I feared I had damaged the SFP somehow and put it aside.
Now I will try again with what you describe.

Oh that could be - You had yours quite some time before I finally got mine, and I think I was on a newer RouterOS version than you at the time, and didn't want to roll back to test it.

it's quite annoying though, as when the SFP does finally stop working (it was every 6 weeks like clockwork for a while, but it's just gone 3 months without a failure until last week..), it means I have to power cycle the CRS109 it lives in, and remove the SFP while it gets power cycled, which means I have to be at home to do it, or talk the missus through it..

timothy77 · Mon Feb 18, 2019 12:56 pm

If you turn OFF auto-negotiate then you will see the "R" running flag but no packets are ever received from the SFP interface.
If you turn ON auto-negotiate, and maybe set advertise=1000M-full as needed, then the next time you insert the modem into the SFP cage it will work!
O that is interesting, that must be some bug/feature introduced in RouterOS recently!
When I first received my SFP, it worked fine with auto-negotiate off. I had 1500 byte MTU all working (same as how you wrote above) and the only problem was I did not get my expected line speed and there is no way to monitor why.
Recently I tried the SFP again and same problem as you write: nothing received. I feared I had damaged the SFP somehow and put it aside.
Now I will try again with what you describe.

any news from mikrotik support?

dohmniq · Mon Feb 18, 2019 4:40 pm

No reply. I can't even find any "support tickets" section when I log into my Mikrotik account. I guess it's not a priority for them.
On the bright side, uptime now at 13 weeks although I did have to disable/re-enable the pppoe-client entry after being away for a week but everything SFP-wise seems stable.

yacsap · Wed May 01, 2019 12:17 am

Hi everyone,

these are the xDSL ATM settings of the modems mentioned above:

Hi Milotop,

How/where can we configure the VPI setting?

A screenshot from your Inbox with VPI setting would be helpful.

Many thanks,
b.L

pe1chl · Wed May 01, 2019 10:13 am

You cannot configure it. You can only select a VPI/VCI setting from the above list.
You do that by accessing the link via a VLAN as in the last column of the table.
So to use VPI/VCI setting 8/36 you use VLAN 7.

VPI/VCI setting not in the table? -> you cannot use this modem.

yacsap · Wed May 22, 2019 2:44 am

You cannot configure it. You can only select a VPI/VCI setting from the above list.
You do that by accessing the link via a VLAN as in the last column of the table.
So to use VPI/VCI setting 8/36 you use VLAN 7.

VPI/VCI setting not in the table? -> you cannot use this modem.

I just used VLAN10 as the ISP has recommended me and it works like charm.

pe1chl · Wed May 22, 2019 10:51 am

I just used VLAN10 as the ISP has recommended me and it works like charm.

So it likely is VDSL, not ADSL, so you do not have ATM and no VPI/VCI settings.
In that case this limitation does not occur.

Do you get the expected speed (same as a ISP supplied modem)?
It still is unfortunate that MikroTik does not add the display of the line parameters for these modems...

Solear · Tue Jun 18, 2019 6:33 pm

I can recommend https://www.mikrotik-shop.de/Interfaces ... :2192.html

I got mine 2 days ago and it works great on a O2 VDSL 50/10 MBit connection.
But it does not work with Dt. Telekom (T-COM) VDSL connections. That should change during 2018.

With my O2 VDSL I got 49.7 MBit down and 9.4 MBit uplink.

1. After inserting the module, it was directly recognized (sfp1).
2. I switched off autonegotiation on the sfp device.
3. I created VLAN7 (vlan7) and connected it to the sfp device(sfp1).
4. Then I created a PPPoE Client, connected it to Interface vlan7 and configured the dial-out setting with my O2 credentials.
Then finally I switched off my FB.

That's it ... Really great stuff!

Step 5: /Interfaces/Interface List => WAN => Switch to Interface SFP.

Can confirm. T-Online. Works great, but slower than a Draytek Vigor 130.
VDSL 100/50:
Vigor 130: 91/28
SFP: 75/25.

Thank you all for your inputs

Rockyboa · Wed Oct 09, 2019 6:20 pm

Anybody tested any of those SFP modem in north america?

Rock

vortex · Sat Apr 04, 2020 7:27 pm

In the future??? Is DSL the future, I thing PON and SFP is the future!

Swisscom has been offering 500 Mbps G.fast since 2016 and continues working with Huawei on 5 Gbps NG.fast since 2017, even if they keep on rolling out FTTH. Universal FTTP is a more distant future.

There are already G.fast SFP modems.

mada3k · Sat Apr 04, 2020 10:02 pm

How far does 500Mbps VDSL G.fast reach.. 30 meters?

vortex · Sat Apr 04, 2020 10:48 pm

Swisscom:

FTTC: up to 550m away, up to 100 Mbps.

FTTS: up to 220m away, between 300-500 Mbps if they installed G.fast, otherwise up to 100 Mbps.

FTTB: up to 500 Mbps

FTTP: up to 1 Gbps (10 Gbps was supposed to start in March).

pe1chl · Sun Apr 05, 2020 12:05 pm

It appears that MikroTik operates in a quite narrow band between "oldfashioned" and "too new".

They have no interest at all in supporting DSL, not even via support of SFP VDSL modems from other sources (i.e. integrate some way to monitor the modem into RouterOS) "because today everyone has fiber and VDSL is the technology of the past and is going away" (that was already their opinion 4 years ago when this topic was started, and likely also before).
Of course quite unrealistic, it is happening in some countries but in many other countries the technology today is still VDSL from streetcabinets with ever faster rates.

But on the other hand, there is almost no support for IPv6 "because our customers do not yet ask for it". (which is even the reply when you ask for it!)
Strange that those countries that supposedly do everything using fiber to the premises, do not use IPv6 yet.

msatter · Sun Apr 05, 2020 12:17 pm

In the Netherlands we have now free router/modem choice. The KPN which is the biggest provider on telephone lines, I can't recommend any Mikrotik router to whom is asking me due to no decent VDSL support.

Many people are looking now for a better router than the one they are hiring right now from their provider.

vortex · Sun Apr 05, 2020 5:57 pm

There are too many random people clamoring for FTTH when G.fast would be enough for most.

mada3k · Sun Apr 05, 2020 8:32 pm

Personally I think it's insane to keep investing in new advanced equipment for the old copper pairs, Especially when the range is only in a couple of hundreds of meters. When I had ADSL once we had a couple of kilometers to the exchange, then it had it's purpose.

vortex · Sun Apr 05, 2020 8:57 pm

Not every country has cheap labour, and it is quicker to replace a box than laying FTTH. Very few people need 10 Gbps at home.

This "NG.fast" is made for up to 100 meters, so it would be mostly for FTTB (or right outside).

volkirik · Sun Apr 05, 2020 9:04 pm

Not every country has cheap labour, and it is quicker to replace a box than laying FTTH. Very few people need 10 Gbps at home.

This "NG.fast" is made for up to 100 meters, so it would be mostly for FTTB (or right outside).

modems will be ready from broadcom soon:
https://www.broadcom.com/company/news/p ... ases/52671
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G.fast#G.mgfast_(XG-fast)

pe1chl · Sun Apr 05, 2020 9:28 pm

When we are looking for "VDSL support in MikroTik routers" what we realistically mean is "SFP modules working with MikroTik routers".
I once bought such a module and while it "worked" with my router, it did not achieve the speed a regular modem would, and there was no way to check the values in the modem to see why that was.
So what we would need is some way to check the values (like for a fiber SFP) of line attenuation, SNR, max and effective bitrate, etc.
In all these years, MikroTik has not come up with that, so for now we should just take it for granted that they are not interested in helping us.

I am using an external Draytek 130 VDSL modem running in mode 17A for 100/30 Mbps. But should I want to go higher in speed, e.g. using bundling or G.fast, there would be another challenge.
I could get a Draytek 165. But I really would like to get rid of yet another box with yet another power supply and taking up an ethernet port.
Alas, it is not going to change. Just as there is no advance in IPv6 support. "customers are not asking for it" (is being told to all customers that ask for it)

vortex · Sun Apr 05, 2020 9:31 pm

modems will be ready from broadcom soon:
https://www.broadcom.com/company/news/p ... ases/52671
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G.fast#G.mgfast_(XG-fast)

If the "NG.fast" project was supposed to result in a slower product, maybe it is now abandoned.

mada3k · Mon Apr 06, 2020 4:36 pm

Not every country has cheap labour, and it is quicker to replace a box than laying FTTH. Very few people need 10 Gbps at home.

This "NG.fast" is made for up to 100 meters, so it would be mostly for FTTB (or right outside).

Then they should cut the old copper pair and drag an cheap fibre instead. Or at least to the basement of the apartment building. It's not about bandwidth, it's about getting rid of legacy technology. This solutions is like keeping the old phone wires on respirator.

It should be mandatory to provide IPv6 as well.

pe1chl · Mon Apr 06, 2020 5:22 pm

Then they should cut the old copper pair and drag an cheap fibre instead. Or at least to the basement of the apartment building.

In countries with cheap labor, fiber can be laid to every house at little extra cost.
In completely socialist countries, the cost of the government installing fiber everywhere can be paid by everyone via their taxes.

But in countries somewhere in between, there is nobody paying for the work and so it is not going to happen.
Here in the Netherlands we are right in between: some municipalities have paid for fiber to every home and in other places, housing associations have done the same thing.
But in general, fiber to the home is not available and instead we have either internet-over-cable (cable TV companies' coax) or fiber to street cabinets supplying VDSL over telephone pairs.
(in the past, telephone pairs were installed everywhere in the socialist way)

This situation is not going to change soon.

vortex · Mon Apr 06, 2020 6:37 pm

Not every country has cheap labour, and it is quicker to replace a box than laying FTTH. Very few people need 10 Gbps at home.

This "NG.fast" is made for up to 100 meters, so it would be mostly for FTTB (or right outside).
Then they should cut the old copper pair and drag an cheap fibre instead. Or at least to the basement of the apartment building. It's not about bandwidth, it's about getting rid of legacy technology. This solutions is like keeping the old phone wires on respirator.

Why should they remove the copper if it's working well?

They ARE also rolling out FTTH, but they don't have unlimited funds or time.

Swisscom also lays 4 fibres per home (2 for themselves and 2 for other operators).

It is not clear if they will replace the FTTB boxes or directly the copper in the future (in general).

It seems they may lay FTTB and convert the building to FTTH when someone places the first order.

volkirik · Thu Apr 09, 2020 4:49 pm

If the "NG.fast" project was supposed to result in a slower product, maybe it is now abandoned.

It is not abandoned.. "NG.fast" and "XG.fast" will be named as "G.mgfast"..

I wish mikrotik make 35b/G.fast/G.mgfast SFP/+ modules. To decrease the price on the market.

vortex · Thu Apr 09, 2020 4:56 pm

It is not abandoned.. "NG.fast" and "XG.fast" will be named as "G.mgfast"..

But the "NG.fast" prototype was only 5 Gbps. Maybe Swisscom would only be interested in 10 Gbps now.

pe1chl · Thu Apr 09, 2020 6:26 pm

Most important, we do not require any modules from MikroTik when they think it is not worthwile to produce them.
We only need support from MikroTik so that parameters of the line can be viewed and possibly tweaked when such a module is plugged into a MikroTik router.
Similar to what is now possible for fiber modules but with values as usual for DSL.

Of course it would be helpful when there is some standard for that, which does not seem to be the case. So it relies on agreements with a couple of manufacturers.
But still that should be less trouble than design, manufacture and sell a module.

vortex · Thu Apr 09, 2020 6:35 pm

And there is TDSL on the horizon, which targets 10 Gbps @ 500m .

Telecom Italia just activated 200 Mbps FTTC in over 700 localities.

vortex · Fri Apr 10, 2020 12:50 am

I imagine many times putting an SFP modem in Mikrotik would not be considered because of the lack of FXS ports in their routers.

pe1chl · Fri Apr 10, 2020 1:22 am

I imagine many times putting an SFP modem in Mikrotik would not be considered because of the lack of FXS ports in their routers.

Why? FXS ports and DSL are totally unrelated.

vortex · Fri Apr 10, 2020 1:28 am

Why? FXS ports and DSL are totally unrelated.

Some phone companies shut down POTS already.

And DOCSIS SFP modems could also exist.

pe1chl · Fri Apr 10, 2020 11:26 am

Why? FXS ports and DSL are totally unrelated.
Some phone companies shut down POTS already.

And so?
Would you want a HDMI connection on your router as well, for the IPtv that most DSL providers have? (at least, here)
I don't see why an FXS port is required on a router more than any other "application" connection.
Most people use their mobile phones also at home here. I do have a cheap VoIP phone on the LAN. External ATAs are
available for like 20 euro.

vortex · Fri Apr 10, 2020 1:14 pm

Many providers give a separate box for TV, including some that previously gave only one for everything. There's little point in replacing an ISP modem router with a VOIP box, which would also cost more than 2 FXS ports in Mikrotik. And you would also have to pay for the SFP, without really reducing clutter.

An ISP could thus provide the usual 2 boxes with Mikrotik (plus an SFP) instead of 3. Or SFP plus TV box (I don't know any "pure" TV box with FXS ports). I doubt they will consider using Mikrotik if it does not have these ports.

Why should people throw away their analog phones?

It does not matter if many people only use mobile phones.

pe1chl · Fri Apr 10, 2020 4:58 pm

Many providers give a separate box for TV, including some that previously gave only one for everything. There's little point in replacing an ISP modem router with a VOIP box, which would also cost more than 2 FXS ports in Mikrotik. And you would also have to pay for the SFP, without really reducing clutter.

I see even LESS point in equipping every router with FXS ports that 99% of the time are completely useless.
Apparently you see a router as a telecom device that should replace an existing telephone line, but in the many MikroTik installations that I have I see only ONE single place where that would be anywhere near useful (my home installation) and I do not need it because I already bought a VoIP phone for the previous router I had which also did not have FXS ports.
All other installs are nowhere near a telephone.

An ISP could thus provide the usual 2 boxes with Mikrotik (plus an SFP) instead of 3. Or SFP plus TV box (I don't know any "pure" TV box with FXS ports). I doubt they will consider using Mikrotik if it does not have these ports.

So what? They will not consider MikroTik for such markets anyway!
They already have suitable boxes from many other manufacturers, that they can fully manage using their TR-069 systems and that their helpdesk can support.
They do not need an "advanced router for techie users that still want to connect last centuries phones".

Why should people throw away their analog phones?

Why should they throw away their AM radios or their record players?
The technology moves on, the way devices are used moves on. They are not forced to throw them away, but they should accept that support will decrease all the time.

It does not matter if many people only use mobile phones.

Well, of course this matters when a device is being designed. Today most people want WiFi. And high speeds. Not FXS ports.

vortex · Fri Apr 10, 2020 5:05 pm

I did not say all Mikrotik routers should have FXS, but some should. That is the kind of routers ISPs give.

e-waste is bad. No point in replacing an analog phone for VOIP just to make regular calls.

It is bad to have to throw away radios/systems because they switch off FM.

It is bad to make cars which do not have standard stereos.

It is bad to switch off DTT when it is most needed for mobile use.

It is bad to make laptops with non-replaceable RAM, storage, or battery.

It is bad to make hard to upgrade desktops.

It is bad to make smartphones/tablets with non-replaceable batteries or without card storage.

It is bad to make game consoles with hard to replace or without standard storage.

mada3k · Fri Apr 10, 2020 6:38 pm

The big ISPs and telco's will keep using shitty boxes that fits their need and compliance. They have no use for RouterOS features at all.

With that said, I not saying that Mikrotik shouldn't have a xDSL-media-converter like product. Most xDSL-routers are horrible in general.

vortex · Fri Apr 10, 2020 7:16 pm

But I would not replace my cable modem/router for SFP if I have to add an ATA box even if I could.

What about small ISPs that also offer more than just internet?

Alestrix · Fri Apr 10, 2020 7:43 pm

We only need support from MikroTik so that parameters of the line can be viewed and possibly tweaked when such a module is plugged into a MikroTik router.
Similar to what is now possible for fiber modules but with values as usual for DSL.

Reading this got my hopes high and I plugged in a GPON ONU that I recently bought to play around with (I don't even have GPON here

) into my CSS326. I know almost nothing about GPON but AFAIK one needs to set a user-id and/or password in the module. Turns out, my MikroTik does not have the ability to tweak that aspect of the fibre (GPON's fiber, too, right

) module.

I guess what I want to say here: Lets add this to the MikroTik SFP port capability wish list!

Alex

vortex · Fri Apr 10, 2020 7:44 pm

If they want people to switch to digital radio they have to make it better than FM.

Alestrix · Fri Apr 10, 2020 7:48 pm

But I would not replace my cable modem/router for SFP if I have to add an ATA box even if I could.

Don't most people that prefer a "real" router (Cisco, MikroTik, Ubiquiti, Juniper, ...) use a separate modem? The moment you switch the ISP's CPE into modem/bridge mode, the telephony capability of the box is usually lost anyway. So why not use a small SFP modem instead?

EDIT: And as routers and switches often reside in the cellar, attic, or some other "hidden" place, that's a pretty sh#tty place for a phone jack anyway.

vortex · Fri Apr 10, 2020 8:47 pm

If it is impossible to replace the modem router the ISP provides you're stuck with it. Even stuck in NAT mode.

You may be allowed to replace their box but you have to accept a VOIP liability, so I would not.

It is not true that most modems and routers are hidden in a home.

volkirik · Fri Apr 10, 2020 9:18 pm

It is not abandoned.. "NG.fast" and "XG.fast" will be named as "G.mgfast"..
But the "NG.fast" prototype was only 5 Gbps. Maybe Swisscom would only be interested in 10 Gbps now.

G.mgfast (multi-gigabit fast) will be supporting both 5Gbps and 10Gbps profiles.

vortex · Fri Apr 10, 2020 9:25 pm

But I assume NG means 5 Gbps. Swisscom's goal could always have been 10.

vortex · Sat Apr 11, 2020 2:36 am

Even listening to the radio on DVB-C can't touch streaming at a proper quality level.

Alestrix · Sun Apr 12, 2020 2:38 am

You may be allowed to replace their box but you have to accept a VOIP liability, so I would not.

What do you mean with "VoIP liability"? I received the SIP credentials from my ISP, so I was able to use my own hardware for everything - DSL modem (DGA4132), router (Ubiquiti ER-X), SIP-Client-DECT-Combo (FritzBox).

vortex · Sun Apr 12, 2020 3:03 am

What do you mean with "VoIP liability"? I received the SIP credentials from my ISP, so I was able to use my own hardware for everything - DSL modem (DGA4132), router (Ubiquiti ER-X), SIP-Client-DECT-Combo (FritzBox).

Some ISP will release the SIP credentials if you ask for them, but then if a criminal makes calls with them from anywhere in the world you have to pay.

vortex · Sun Apr 12, 2020 11:10 pm

There's already something better than DAB+: DVB-T2 Lite.

pe1chl · Mon Apr 13, 2020 1:41 pm

Hey vortex,

Can you please take your wildly offtopic discussion to a different topic?
In this topic we try to discuss the possibility of having a VDSL-capable MikroTik router, e.g. by having a VDSL modem as an SFP module added to an SFP-equipped MikroTik router, and supported in RouterOS so it can be monitored and configured.

I could see the tangent of having a DOCSIS SFP perform a similar task and similarly supported as being valid in this topic, as it would require similar RouterOS support, but it doesn't exist and it does not seem to be planned by anyone.

However, all that babble that you started about having to support FXS and SIP for you to accept that as an alternative (noting that it is not even viable because there IS no DOCSIS SFP module) and now even wandering off into audio/video broadcast technology really isn't to the point anymore.

vortex · Mon Apr 13, 2020 2:48 pm

Just to make it full circle that this DAB story looks like ISDN and minitel.

Is anybody still using ISDN?

The BBC does for audio.

vortex · Tue Apr 14, 2020 1:52 am

I looked at a study and one would need 192 kbps DAB+ (172 kbps of pure AAC audio) to equal FM.

Perceptual transparency would supposedly be attained by 284 kbps (DVB T2 cannot do it either).

volkirik · Tue Apr 14, 2020 5:21 am

unfortunately Mikrotik xDSL modem is not going to be produced.. They focus on active fiber and GPON.. the response from mikrotik was:

xDSL and G.fast are old technologies. Big chip makers quited that market long time ago. Intel, Qualcomm, Marvell... they sold or closed their xDSL and G.fast groups.

vortex · Fri Apr 17, 2020 6:59 pm

I just thought of something I don't want to keep hanging:

If you keep FM, people will not need to throw away their DAB+ radios when it is replaced by T2 Lite.

volkirik · Sat Apr 18, 2020 12:54 pm

unfortunately Mikrotik xDSL modem is not going to be produced.. They focus on active fiber and GPON.. the response from mikrotik was:

xDSL and G.fast are old technologies. Big chip makers quited that market long time ago. Intel, Qualcomm, Marvell... they sold or closed their xDSL and G.fast groups.

pe1chl · Sat Apr 18, 2020 1:27 pm

MikroTik does not need to produce a DSL modem, they only have to support DSL SFP modules that other manufacturers already produce and can be used in MikroTik routers that have SFP.
Similar to supporting USB sticks for mobile telecom (4G etc).

Of course it would not be a good idea to produce a router model with DSL builtin. It would cost a lot of money to develop such routers in every performance category.

Mon Apr 20, 2020 2:10 pm

MikroTik does not need to produce a DSL modem, they only have to support DSL SFP modules that other manufacturers already produce and can be used in MikroTik routers that have SFP.
Similar to supporting USB sticks for mobile telecom (4G etc).

Of course it would not be a good idea to produce a router model with DSL builtin. It would cost a lot of money to develop such routers in every performance category.

I disagree. The SFP VDSL modules run hot, e.g. around 80degrees Celcius. This might be OK in your country, but in Australia they are too hot and unreliable.

Mikrotik could easily make use of ODM design services from the chipset manufacturers or their partners. This is no different to the big name SOHO router manufacturers using the likes of Compex to design the PCB's in their routers.

ADSL/VDSL are still mainstream and current technologies in a lot of countries for better or worse.

vortex · Mon Apr 20, 2020 4:17 pm

If Mikrotik made a DOCSIS SFP modem, people could use them in some countries.

pe1chl · Mon Apr 20, 2020 5:09 pm

Mikrotik could easily make use of ODM design services from the chipset manufacturers or their partners.

But they are not interested in that. This has been te response to several people making this query, I also tried that years ago and even then they were not interested.
Here we run in the problem that MikroTik is from a country that joined the western society later than others, and where the "disadvantage of being first" does not apply so much.
Over here the majority of internet connections is DSL and cable, fiber to the home is only a small segment. But apparently in Latvia and other countries everything is fiber.
Good for them, but not very useful for us. We would have to wait until every home and business is connected to fiber, and there is no such initiative currently going on.
I agree with you that SFPs run too hot, kind of a generic problem with SFPs, they are just designed too small. A device supporting SFP should have a fan that blows air out
through the SFP. When I would use my 180-T (which I can't, because RouterOS does not support it well enough) I would probably try to apply some heatsinking.

vortex · Mon Apr 20, 2020 8:35 pm

If no one has made a DOCSIS SFP modem it would be a very interesting product, even if it cannot be used by everybody.

vortex · Fri May 08, 2020 3:53 am

I hope DVB-I will get rid of TV boxes in most countries.

Availability of DOCSIS SFP will be more important.

mada3k · Sun May 10, 2020 8:35 pm

I don't think it's possible to fit a DOCSIS frontend in a regular SFP. DOCSIS also needs a fair bit of power for the RF-stuff.

Possible in a QSFP, but that would be ridiculous.

vortex · Sun May 10, 2020 9:19 pm

What about FD-SOI ?

But maybe it is not powerful enough for the front end.

antiknock · Mon Jun 29, 2020 12:03 pm

The SFP VDSL modules run hot, e.g. around 80degrees Celcius. This might be OK in your country, but in Australia they are too hot and unreliable.

Howdy ho!

I just thought about acquiring such a tiny SFP VDSL2 thingie, just to get rid of another device that needs to be plugged into a wall socket, wasting space... Altough this is not down under but Central Europe, temperature issues are issues to me and so not wanted. At least 80°C sounds like a serious temperature issue.

Anyone else has issues with the temperature? Are there any differences when it comes to different makers?

Thanks!

Regards
anTIKnock

Maggiore81 · Tue Oct 20, 2020 10:22 am

Any news on working SFP VDSL2 (v35b) modem for our MT Routers?

pe1chl · Tue Oct 20, 2020 11:26 am

Any news on working SFP VDSL2 (v35b) modem for our MT Routers?

I think it will not happen. They live in a part of the world where VDSL is not a thing, they think it is dead and not worth supporting.
That already was a problem 4 years ago when this topic was started, so it likely has only become worse (for us).

It is disappointing, because basically we are not asking them to design any VDSL modem or to write the (complicated) DSP code for it, but only to support the existing SFP modems from other manufacturers just like they support other SFP types (like GPON).
That should be limited to sending some commands to the SFP and retrieve the reply, and display it and/or make it available in SNMP.

mtest001 · Thu Jun 23, 2022 10:43 pm

Hi all,
I am trying to configure my Mikrotik hES-X to replace the DSL modem/router provided by my ISP (Orange, France).

The DSL SFP I bought is the Allnet ALL4781-VDSL2-SFP module, but I am not sure how to configure the VP/VC (8/35) in my case.

Does the table below also apply to the ALL4781 module ?

If so, it means I need to use VLAN 8 - which interface must be put in the VLAN, the sfp interface itself or the PPPoE virtual interface (or both) ?

Thank you for your help. Sorry for the noob question.

rendrag · Thu Jun 23, 2022 11:12 pm

I don’t know if that module is the same, but if it is, then you’ll create a vlan 8 interface on the SFP interface, and add your pppoe dialler to the vlan8 interface

mtest001 · Thu Jun 23, 2022 11:47 pm

Thanks for the explanation regarding the VLAN setting, it's very clear

mtest001 · Sat Jun 25, 2022 11:52 pm

I bought a ALLNET ALL4781-VDSL2-SFP for my VDSL2 17a G.Vector (ITU G.993.5) line using 1&1 in germany. It's sold as a 100Mb/s VDSL2 line and syncs at around 109Mb/s on a fritzbox 7412.

Can somebody tell me if this SFP can only do VDSL or is also compatible with ADSL ?

I plugged it on my ADSL line. The green LED came ON steady - which means DSL link on. On the router I can see some traffic going through sfp1 TX/RX ... But I can't get my PPPoE to work.

Thank you for your answers.

ToTheCLI · Sun Jun 26, 2022 11:24 pm

I bought a ALLNET ALL4781-VDSL2-SFP for my VDSL2 17a G.Vector (ITU G.993.5) line using 1&1 in germany. It's sold as a 100Mb/s VDSL2 line and syncs at around 109Mb/s on a fritzbox 7412.
Can somebody tell me if this SFP can only do VDSL or is also compatible with ADSL ?

I plugged it on my ADSL line. The green LED came ON steady - which means DSL link on. On the router I can see some traffic going through sfp1 TX/RX ... But I can't get my PPPoE to work.

Thank you for your answers.

Try Different VLANs

mtest001 · Mon Jun 27, 2022 12:31 am

I tried VLAN 8 which should correspond to the VPC 8/35 ... But got no luck.

ToTheCLI · Mon Jun 27, 2022 7:33 pm

I tried VLAN 8 which should correspond to the VPC 8/35 ... But got no luck.

Try them all

volkirik · Mon Jun 27, 2022 10:13 pm

lol. does this thing even support ATM (ADSL) ?

thought just VDSL (PTM)

pe1chl · Tue Jun 28, 2022 11:27 am

See above, it has been mentioned many times. But I have never tested it on an ADSL line and have long given up on usage on VDSL as well due to total lack of interest and support from MikroTik.
These devices essentially are unusable without a display of SFP stats that shows the line status, as has always been available for fiber and ethernet modules.

mtest001 · Tue Jun 28, 2022 12:13 pm

lol. does this thing even support ATM (ADSL) ?

thought just VDSL (PTM)

According to the vendor it does not support ADSL/ADSL2+
But I was surprised because clearly I can see the DSL link coming up and some traffic - around 520 bps. Also on my ISP web page it says my DSL link is up and it reports the dowload and upload speeds.

But unfortunately I did not manage to get a working setup I gave up and returned the SFP to the store while I could still do it and get a refund.

volkirik · Tue Jun 28, 2022 5:40 pm

if it is not supported then it is simply not supported.

dsl - atm/ptm - pppoe are different layers. if atm is not supported it will simply not work as ADSL has to use ATM.

arandomdave · Thu Dec 15, 2022 5:17 pm

I've tried using the net(z)ware VDSL SFP with a UK FTTC line and had awful results (Openreach - G.993.2 VDSL2, Profile 17a. ECI/Infineon DSLAM). Here's the SFP detail:

                    sfp-vendor-name: Netzware
             sfp-vendor-part-number: VDSL2.180-T
                sfp-vendor-revision: V3.4
                  sfp-vendor-serial: I949000379XXXXXX
                    eeprom-checksum: good
                             eeprom: 0000: 03 04 22 00 00 00 01 00  00 00 00 01 0d 00 00 00  .."..... ........
                                     0010: 00 00 ff 00 4e 65 74 7a  77 61 72 65 20 20 20 20  ....Netz ware
                                     0020: 20 20 20 20 00 00 00 00  56 44 53 4c 32 2e 31 38      .... VDSL2.18
                                     0030: 30 2d 54 20 20 20 20 20  56 33 2e 34 00 00 00 c5  0-T      V3.4....
...
                                     0070: 20 20 20 20 20 20 20 20  45 44 4c 31 36 43 56 31           EDL16CV1
                                     0080: 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00  00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00  ........ ........

When it did sync, it would do so at a fraction of the typical speed and extremely poor latency. Using other modems 44d/18u was achieved (7.7 dB / 6.0 dB SNR). Unfortunately I don't have line stats from the SFP, but suspect <10Mbps down. Latency was often >500ms with high packet loss.

I also experienced the issues @dohmniq reported, where a strange sequence of events was required to get it to pass traffic (No PPP would come up unless pppoe was disabled / sfp-reinserted). After contacting net(z)ware, I was told the SFP was EOL and no support/updates were available.

I can't find much online about the Net(z)ware SFP, but searching the string "EDL16CV1" suggests it's similar to the Proscend (and so I guess the same as the Metanoia VDSL2 VTU-R SFP).

I have an Allnet ALL4781 on its way, which I'm hoping is going to be better - or at least functional with the windows DSLMonitor software so that I can get a better idea of what might be going on.

Posting this so that anyone considering the Net(z)ware VDSL2.180-T can find something about it. I'll try and remember to post again if things improve with the Allnet SFP.

Edit 2022-12-23
Unfortunately, the only Allnet VDSL SFP I can find int the UK has been lost by the courier (Thanks, UPS) so I decided to explore further the net(z)ware one.
Using the DSLManager application, I was able to flash the "180T-L4TA-8463-Duxtel.b" firmware. Removing and re-inserting the SFP afterwards then allowed the "DSMonitor Lite" app to work
Sync is much closer to my normal speed, normal latency etc. Early days for sure, but a somewhat more promising

pe1chl · Thu Dec 15, 2022 10:41 pm

It seems your results are similar to mine... much too slow, and of course impossible to monitor/debug why.
I have tossed it in the "unusable old crap" box long ago, have used a Draytek 130 for some time but now that I have profile 35b I have bought a ZyXEL VMG4005-B50A.

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