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sdefabrizio
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LINK P-P 12Km. NLOS with 133c

Tue Apr 15, 2008 12:15 pm

Hi... i need help very very very urgently to solve my problem.

I bought two antenna directional with integrated a 133c routerboard in bridge mode

this is the gps location of the Transmitter:
Latitude: 45°51'35.85"N
Longitude: 9°24'22.11"E

and the receiver:
Latitude: 45°45'14.02"N
Longitude: 9°26'5.44"E

In the mikrotik I set the TX in BRIDGE mode with 5ghz - 5180mhz antenna gain 19dbi and manual tx power to 11dbm
RX in WDSSLAVE mode with 5ghz - 5180mhz antenna gain 19dbi and manual tx power to 11dbm

I cannot get the bridge working between the two antenna.

What's wrong ?

I must be very accuracy pointing the antenna or it is not so important ?

Please help help help help help help help help me !

Stefano
 
sdefabrizio
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Re: LINK P-P 12Km. NLOS with 133c

Tue Apr 15, 2008 12:37 pm

RadioMobile says me that's perfect !

Image
 
InoX
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Re: LINK P-P 12Km. NLOS with 133c

Wed Apr 16, 2008 1:03 am

You need at least 23dBi antenna or increase the power of the cards!!!
 
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jordantrx
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Re: LINK P-P 12Km. NLOS with 133c

Wed Apr 16, 2008 1:29 am

RadioMobile says me that's perfect !

Image
It is interupting the freshnel |zone some. High gain antenna's and Sr5's You will make the link. -Jordan
~Agricultural WISP "ZONE"~ Beware of oncoming cattle and dont hit the farmer!!! I need to ask him about using his silo for an AP first"~

*Automated Billing Installer* http://wiki.mikrotik.com/wiki/AutomatedBilling Built by Krige ;-)
 
sdefabrizio
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Re: LINK P-P 12Km. NLOS with 133c

Wed Apr 16, 2008 10:32 am

RadioMobile says me that's perfect !

Image
It is interupting the freshnel |zone some. High gain antenna's and Sr5's You will make the link. -Jordan
first of all I thank you very much for your answer.

This matter for me is very urgent, is it possible to chat with you to get some suggestions very quickly ?
if you have messenger we can chat there !


Thankx in advance.
Stefano
 
sdefabrizio
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Re: LINK P-P 12Km. NLOS with 133c

Wed Apr 16, 2008 3:22 pm

for example you mean that I can keep my routerboard 133c using an antenna more than 19dbi and change the radio chipset with the SR5 (more powerfull)

now i have the athreos ... something I can't remember.

In case can you suggest me a complete product ?
is better grid antenna or panel antenna like the one i have now ?

Thanks again.

Stefano
 
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jordantrx
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Re: LINK P-P 12Km. NLOS with 133c

Wed Apr 16, 2008 3:59 pm

for example you mean that I can keep my routerboard 133c using an antenna more than 19dbi and change the radio chipset with the SR5 (more powerfull)

now i have the athreos ... something I can't remember.

In case can you suggest me a complete product ?
is better grid antenna or panel antenna like the one i have now ?

Thanks again.

Stefano
yes you could do that, however im not saying it will make the link. But it will be tons better than what you have now. You can try if it dosent work then you will have to upgrade your antenna to like 29 dbi. On ebay right now there selling some Sr5's cheaper if priceyness is an issue.. Just do a search for ubiquiti... Im to busy to chat online, best stay on the fourm. And really inox said it best first i just backed him up and brought in freznel zone. He knows what to do aswell :-) -Jordan
~Agricultural WISP "ZONE"~ Beware of oncoming cattle and dont hit the farmer!!! I need to ask him about using his silo for an AP first"~

*Automated Billing Installer* http://wiki.mikrotik.com/wiki/AutomatedBilling Built by Krige ;-)
 
sdefabrizio
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Re: LINK P-P 12Km. NLOS with 133c

Wed Apr 16, 2008 4:34 pm

And really inox said it best first i just backed him up and brought in freznel zone. He knows what to do aswell :-) -Jordan
can you please explain better this thing ?
I do not understand !

Bye
 
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Re: LINK P-P 12Km. NLOS with 133c

Wed Apr 16, 2008 4:38 pm

NLOS at 5ghz???
 
sdefabrizio
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Re: LINK P-P 12Km. NLOS with 133c

Wed Apr 16, 2008 4:58 pm

NLOS at 5ghz???
not seen because of the distance and some threes 500 mts far from the target.

Stefano
 
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jordantrx
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Re: LINK P-P 12Km. NLOS with 133c

Wed Apr 16, 2008 5:17 pm

NLOS at 5ghz???
Who said it was None line of sight? And IS it LOS oR NLOS???? IF NLOS Xr9 Times 2 High Gain Directional antenna's Times 2... -Jordan
~Agricultural WISP "ZONE"~ Beware of oncoming cattle and dont hit the farmer!!! I need to ask him about using his silo for an AP first"~

*Automated Billing Installer* http://wiki.mikrotik.com/wiki/AutomatedBilling Built by Krige ;-)
 
sdefabrizio
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Re: LINK P-P 12Km. NLOS with 133c

Wed Apr 16, 2008 6:07 pm

NLOS at 5ghz???
Who said it was None line of sight? And IS it LOS oR NLOS???? IF NLOS Xr9 Times 2 High Gain Directional antenna's Times 2... -Jordan
I do not understand XR9 Times 2.... etc.. can you explain better please ?


i attach a picture from the roof of my house.
is everything free in the direction but the diference in meters between the source and the target is 60 mts.

only some trees and buildings but under the signal !

Image
 
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jordantrx
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Re: LINK P-P 12Km. NLOS with 133c

Wed Apr 16, 2008 7:38 pm

Tryed to load the picture didnt load. Not sure why.


Ok Xr9 is a 900mhz Card which requires 900mhz Antenna's. 900Mhz Goes farther than 2.4ghz or 5.8 Ghz will. and it also works better in NLOS (None line of Sight) enviorments.



An Xr5 Is a very powerfully 5.8ghz card built by Ubiquiti. Pop an Xr5 into both Rb133c's and see if you can make the "connection" then you can make your bridge or whatever. Be carefull how you say things we can take them in a wrong way and give you incorrect information.


If hte Xr5 Does not work You could try Higher gain antenna's If that does not work You will most likely need 900 Mhz Link.. Let us know how it goes. -Jordan
~Agricultural WISP "ZONE"~ Beware of oncoming cattle and dont hit the farmer!!! I need to ask him about using his silo for an AP first"~

*Automated Billing Installer* http://wiki.mikrotik.com/wiki/AutomatedBilling Built by Krige ;-)
 
sdefabrizio
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Re: LINK P-P 12Km. NLOS with 133c

Wed Apr 16, 2008 8:57 pm

i can give you any ANY ANY ANY information you need to get the best support you can give me !!!

Thanks again.
Image
 
sdefabrizio
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Re: LINK P-P 12Km. NLOS with 133c

Wed Apr 16, 2008 9:39 pm

i hone not to be out of rules but this product could be good ?

http://shop.defactowireless.com/s.nl/it ... egory=1039

Thanks
Stefano
 
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jordantrx
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Re: LINK P-P 12Km. NLOS with 133c

Wed Apr 16, 2008 9:58 pm

i hone not to be out of rules but this product could be good ?

http://shop.defactowireless.com/s.nl/it ... egory=1039

Thanks
Stefano
Its pretty fair, But you could probibly throw something together cheaper if you get cards off from e-bay. Then again it is used. But that would work for one side of your 900mhz backhaul link. Then again the 900mhz antenna did not say how man dbi it was...


Its up to you what you want to use. We have helped you the best we can now you just need to try it and see if it works :-) good luck,. -Jordan
~Agricultural WISP "ZONE"~ Beware of oncoming cattle and dont hit the farmer!!! I need to ask him about using his silo for an AP first"~

*Automated Billing Installer* http://wiki.mikrotik.com/wiki/AutomatedBilling Built by Krige ;-)
 
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jordantrx
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Re: LINK P-P 12Km. NLOS with 133c

Wed Apr 16, 2008 10:00 pm

i can give you any ANY ANY ANY information you need to get the best support you can give me !!!

Thanks again.
Image
Thats a good distance, but as long as it is Line of Sight 5.8 will reach that. If it is Not line of sight then 900Mhz, should do it. Good luck -Jordan
~Agricultural WISP "ZONE"~ Beware of oncoming cattle and dont hit the farmer!!! I need to ask him about using his silo for an AP first"~

*Automated Billing Installer* http://wiki.mikrotik.com/wiki/AutomatedBilling Built by Krige ;-)
 
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Re: LINK P-P 12Km. NLOS with 133c

Wed Apr 16, 2008 11:11 pm

In the mikrotik I set the TX in BRIDGE mode with 5ghz - 5180mhz antenna gain 19dbi and manual tx power to 11dbm
RX in WDSSLAVE mode with 5ghz - 5180mhz antenna gain 19dbi and manual tx power to 11dbm
Brr, Why you start with so complicated config?
Reset all and start from scratch.
Change only necessary wireless settings like
1)band - 5Ghz
2)country - your country
3)frequency-mode -regulatory-domain
4)mode - bridge in one side, station in another end
5)frequency - 5180Mhz i think those frequency was for indoor use in EU - use scan to find free channel 5500-5700.
Leave tx power default.
 
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Re: LINK P-P 12Km. NLOS with 133c

Fri Apr 18, 2008 5:02 pm

Hi I'm back.
thanking you now my ideas are more clear...

So for example if I try to make my kit i would like to use:

1 grid antenna 30dbi for 5ghz
1 routerboard R333
1 radio miniPCI SR5 (400 mW)
1 little cable to attach the antenna (N-FEMALE) to radio (MCX)
1 box for outdoor where put the routerboard

Is it correct ?

Now i need an answer to my question:

I live in Italy and from what I know in italy you can use a max of 1W (30dbm) EIRP
The 30dbi antenna gain should be add to the radio power (4W) ???!?!?!

Thanks again.
Stefano
 
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jordantrx
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Re: LINK P-P 12Km. NLOS with 133c

Fri Apr 18, 2008 7:39 pm

Hi I'm back.
thanking you now my ideas are more clear...

So for example if I try to make my kit i would like to use:

1 grid antenna 30dbi for 5ghz
1 routerboard R333
1 radio miniPCI SR5 (400 mW)
1 little cable to attach the antenna (N-FEMALE) to radio (MCX)
1 box for outdoor where put the routerboard

Is it correct ?

Now i need an answer to my question:

I live in Italy and from what I know in italy you can use a max of 1W (30dbm) EIRP
The 30dbi antenna gain should be add to the radio power (4W) ???!?!?!

Thanks again.
Stefano
Your antenna config is correct. But i bleieve the Sr5 has more output than that. maybe im thinking the Xr5.. I dont know.



As far as your output power..... Ummm get a lower dbi antenna, like 26 dbi, then you can adjust the output power of the card to meet your area's power restriction..


If all else fails 900mhz is the way to go, will be able to use lower gain antenna's and less power and keep within your countrys regulations. -Jordan
~Agricultural WISP "ZONE"~ Beware of oncoming cattle and dont hit the farmer!!! I need to ask him about using his silo for an AP first"~

*Automated Billing Installer* http://wiki.mikrotik.com/wiki/AutomatedBilling Built by Krige ;-)
 
Schnulch
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Re: LINK P-P 12Km. NLOS with 133c

Mon Apr 21, 2008 3:50 pm

Hi sdefabrizio,

if you use an Antenna with more than 20 dbi, you will not need a high power card, because every 5 GHz- capable card is able to give you at least 12 db at every speed-rate. Like you said, in Italy there are only 30 dbi EIRP allowed, so you have to add the gain of the antenna and the power of the card, and then subtract the loss of cable / connectors. As you use antenna with RB inside, the loss wil be 0,5 db at max.
You should choosee a card with high sensitivity on incoming signal, for me r52 from Mikrotik or Wistron cm9 work really good.
And don't use manual tx power, I had lots of trouble with that. Just choose the right country in RB133, use outdoor frequency (Germany it is 5500-5700 MHz, I think Italy should be the same.) Then insert your Antenna gain in routerboard / winbox.
Oh, and I suggest using routeros v. 3.x, the newest you can download on MT homepage (mipsel, RB1xx Version)
How to upgrade is in the wiki and in the forum, just look for it.

If you just like to bridge to places with RB, there is no need for an RB333, because you will only get about 1,5 to 2 MByte/sec at that Distance, if you don't exceed the power-limits.
And that's also possible with RB133, RB333 will not be much faster (if at all) on such Distance.

There is a WDS-bridge howto in the wiki, if you follow that exactly, you will get your link, if it is possible at all.

I would test the RB's first at your home, distance of 10 to 50 meters, (without the large antennas, but you have to use at least two mini-dipole (the ones mounted on most of the soho-Acces-Points) or else you could blow your wireless-cards.
And make sure you have the antenna connected to the correct pin of the card (refer to manual of manufacturer or website of manufacturer for information)

One last thing, the greater the gain of an antenna, the more precisely you will have to align it.
To do that put both antenna and RB in position and check the correct alignment of one with a laptop or similar and move the antenna softly and slowly from side to side, watching the signal in winbox. If you have best possible signal level, do the same for up and down direction. Then go to the other end of your wireless link and do the same.
Now you're set.

FYI:
In Europe, 900MHz Frequency is not allowed, sadly, so no use for SR9 for us.
 
sdefabrizio
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Re: LINK P-P 12Km. NLOS with 133c

Mon Apr 21, 2008 5:31 pm

Hi sdefabrizio,

if you use an Antenna with more than 20 dbi, you will not need a high power card, because every 5 GHz- capable card is able to give you at least 12 db at every speed-rate. Like you said, in Italy there are only 30 dbi EIRP allowed, so you have to add the gain of the antenna and the power of the card, and then subtract the loss of cable / connectors. As you use antenna with RB inside, the loss wil be 0,5 db at max.
You should choosee a card with high sensitivity on incoming signal, for me r52 from Mikrotik or Wistron cm9 work really good.
And don't use manual tx power, I had lots of trouble with that. Just choose the right country in RB133, use outdoor frequency (Germany it is 5500-5700 MHz, I think Italy should be the same.) Then insert your Antenna gain in routerboard / winbox.
Oh, and I suggest using routeros v. 3.x, the newest you can download on MT homepage (mipsel, RB1xx Version)
How to upgrade is in the wiki and in the forum, just look for it.

If you just like to bridge to places with RB, there is no need for an RB333, because you will only get about 1,5 to 2 MByte/sec at that Distance, if you don't exceed the power-limits.
And that's also possible with RB133, RB333 will not be much faster (if at all) on such Distance.

There is a WDS-bridge howto in the wiki, if you follow that exactly, you will get your link, if it is possible at all.

I would test the RB's first at your home, distance of 10 to 50 meters, (without the large antennas, but you have to use at least two mini-dipole (the ones mounted on most of the soho-Acces-Points) or else you could blow your wireless-cards.
And make sure you have the antenna connected to the correct pin of the card (refer to manual of manufacturer or website of manufacturer for information)

One last thing, the greater the gain of an antenna, the more precisely you will have to align it.
To do that put both antenna and RB in position and check the correct alignment of one with a laptop or similar and move the antenna softly and slowly from side to side, watching the signal in winbox. If you have best possible signal level, do the same for up and down direction. Then go to the other end of your wireless link and do the same.
Now you're set.

FYI:
In Europe, 900MHz Frequency is not allowed, sadly, so no use for SR9 for us.

ohhh thank you very much Schnulch for the very very explained answer.

I really appreciate if you can give me your opinion about this configuration:

- Antenna grid 27db
http://www.wifi-stock.com/details/pa27grid.html

- Routerboard R133

- radio R52
http://www.wifi-stock.com/details/r52.html

I do not understand how much mw is the r52 radio and the connector type to connect to the grid antenna.


Thank you again for your help.
Stefano
 
sdefabrizio
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Re: LINK P-P 12Km. NLOS with 133c

Mon Apr 21, 2008 7:14 pm

someone can give me information about this store in europe ?

wifi-stock.com


or can someone can suggest me where to buy the things above with goood prices in europe ?

Thanks
Stefano
 
sdefabrizio
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Re: LINK P-P 12Km. NLOS with 133c

Mon Apr 21, 2008 9:26 pm

If I buy this product ?
http://www.wifi-stock.com/details/mkt-2029dish.html

I should solve all my problems and when I get the signal I decrease the power.

No??!?!?!
 
Schnulch
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Re: LINK P-P 12Km. NLOS with 133c

Tue Apr 22, 2008 10:42 am

Mikrotik r52 is Atheros-based mini-pci card which offers 18 db (~63 mw) at 6 MBit and about 14 db (~25 mw) at 54 MBit on my RB133c. But as said before, there is no need for high output power on card, because you suggest using an antenna with 27 or 29 dbi, which leaves you only at about 2 to 4 db card output, because you have to add Antenna gain (27 or 29 dbi) to output power of card (2 to 4) and subtract cable loss (~1 db for one meter of cable with connectors)
Thats why I think the 29 dbi you suggest is pure overkill, what would you do with 600 mw card (that's nearly 28 db output power!)???
please keep in mind that db-scale is logarithmic, meaning every 3 db you increase output power, you double your EIRP-wattage.
30 dbi = 1 watt EIRP
33 dbi = 2 watt EIRP
36 dbi = 4 watt EIRP
39 dbi = 8 watt EIRP
42 dbi = 16 watt EIRP
45 dbi = 32 watt EIRP
48 dbi = 64 watt EIRP
51 dbi = 128 watt EIRP
54 dbi = 256 watt EIRP
57 dbi = 512 watt EIRP (that's what you get with the 29dbi antenna you suggested last, with the XR5-card on "full power".
I don't know, but even if in Italy regulations are not taken too seriously, I guess that could cause you some trouble.

So, my suggestion is, take the 27dbi dish, use a RB133 or, if you want to squeeze out max throughput, take a RB333 and a r52 on either side, and you're ready to go. Keep the cable between mini-pci and Antenna short (1 meter i suggest), put the Routerboard in a dry location (housing), and try to cover it as good as possible from direct sunlight (heat may become a problem in summer if the box with RB is in full sunlight most of the day)
The antenna with 27 dbi has a N-female connector, so you want a cable with N-male connector on one side, other end (RB- end) depends on what kind of pigtail you use, which depends on the housing of RB you can get. Ask your dealer about that one, please.

Mount the antenna as high above Ground as possible, so you get a better line of sight. If you can't see the other end of the link with a binocular or spotting scope, because there are houses, trees or mountains in the way, better forget that spot and look for a better one. On that distance, you will only get reliable connection with absolutly free line of sight, keep that in mind. And no, more power will not necessaryly give you a stable link, Iif you can't see the other end.

There are options with RB333 using dual Nstreme to get more throughput, but as I understand, you're quite new to wlan-equipment and it's use (no offence), so, keep it simple, you will get better and quicker results.

I don't know, why you want to do this and what you want to achieve with this bridge, but for "usual, normal" uses, this setup with one antenna and one r52 on either side will be very good for a start.
 
sdefabrizio
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Re: LINK P-P 12Km. NLOS with 133c

Tue Apr 22, 2008 7:46 pm

thank you very much WGG (wireless german guru) :)

what you think about the possibility to buy one antenna. Put that into the transmit point and the go to the receiver point and check with a portable to look for the ssid ?

Is it possible ????

Thank you again.

Steano

p.s. do u have messenger ?
 
Schnulch
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Re: LINK P-P 12Km. NLOS with 133c

Tue Apr 22, 2008 10:58 pm

The signal loss on 12 Km is about 129 db with 5,7 GHz, so if you send the signal with your routerboard at 30 dbi you will have a signal of about -99 db MAX (which you can hardly receive with WLAN equipment of any kind, cause the usual WLAN-cards have a (theoretical, on the paper) receive limit from -91 db to -97 db max (which in reality can be a little less, though) at your "receiving point" in perfect envirement (which does not exist, I'm afraid). With portable you mean a Laptop / Notebook I suppose. Their built in antennas (mostly omnidirectional type, tested a few, got a gain of 4db at max (less is more probable ;-)) vary a lot in quality as do the mini-pci or mini-pcie cards used. I think without an external antenna with at least 10 dbi your chances of getting a signal are very remote. Of course you need a Notebook with 5 GHz WLAN, but what's worse, you need a WLAN-card with connector for external antenna and support for Netstumbler or similar, to get an idea of the quality of the received signal.

If you plan on doing more such links you may buy that equipment, else I would buy two of those 27 dbi dishes and 2 RB411with r52 (forget about the RB133, same price but much slower than 411. Why didn't I think about it before?)

Those antenna cost about 50 Euro a piece, the RB411 with r52, power supply and a outdoor housing will cost 100-130 Euro. Even if you buy all in Italy, I guess 400 Euro should be enough for the whole kit.

Then I would try the location you have in mind. If it works, well, perfect, if not, you can look for a point where you have better reception, not too far away (up to 3 Km is no Problem) from one of your actual points (with free line of sight to where you need the signal at the end.) You should be able to get RB411 in housing with 19dbi antenna, r52 and power supply for 120 Euro. Then you build a smaller link from the first link to your end point. Not much more costs than those 29 dbi sets you mentioned. (If your first link doesn't work (reliable) with 27 dbi, i doubt it would work with 29.)

In the middle of the two links you could use a RB333 (instead of two RB411) with two r52, so you safe a housing and a power supply. Those are available with 19 dbi (or 23, if you like) housing antenna too.

About the messenger: I avoid them like the devil avoids holy water, because I can't work with "PLING, PLOP, PLOING" every five minutes.

C.U.
 
sdefabrizio
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Re: LINK P-P 12Km. NLOS with 133c

Wed Apr 23, 2008 12:24 pm

Thank you again my personal WGG !!!!! (wireless german guru) :D

I've understand what you mean. Today I think I will buy a spotting scope to find for a line of sigh.

But, do you really think that some threes can cut the signal even at 28 db ?

And If i'm in a NLOS condition, If I understand what you mean my solution shold be:

Point A. (TX) Grid Antenna 27db with RB133 with R52
Point B. .... repeater but which kind of antenna I should put ? and routerboard and radio ?
and what is the configuration pf WINBOX ?
Point C. (RX) Grid Antenna 27db with RB133 with R52


..... and in italy today the sun in shining and there's really a beautifull day !! :lol:
what's are you waiting for ..... ?

Thanks again.
Stefano
 
sdefabrizio
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Re: LINK P-P 12Km. NLOS with 133c

Wed Apr 23, 2008 3:16 pm

i've just bought this spotting scope, hoping to get the line of sigh !!!!

http://www.konus.com/prodotti.php?id_c=4&id_p=432

what's you think about it ?

Stefano
 
Schnulch
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Re: LINK P-P 12Km. NLOS with 133c

Wed Apr 23, 2008 5:55 pm

Image


The scope will do fine.

In fact, on that distance trees (especially on rainy weather, all leafs wet, very bad for WLAN) can cut your signal very much, I guess, more than 30 db. But you must realise, with perfect line of sight and the already discussed equipment you will end up with a SNR (signal to noise ratio) of about 25 db. Your signal will be at ~-73 to -75 db. You need at least -80, the lesser the better for a reliable link. (Please be aware that numbers are negative values, -70 is much better signal than -80!) So if anything in your line of transmitting will cut your signal only by 5db, you will be in trouble. And yes, even in summer and very dry condition trees will cause a lot more signal loss than that. So LOS is absolutly necessary, or your project won't work.

POINT A:
Grid antenna 27 dbi, RB411, r52 pointing exactly at POINT B

POINT B:
Grid antenna 27 dbi (facing exactly at POINT A!) , RB333, r52(the first one)
r52, 19-23 dbi antenna (facing to POINT C) with housing (or without housing, that's up to you), r52 (second one)

POINT C:RB411, 19-23 dbi antenna (facing to POINT B) with housing (or without housing, that's up to you), r52

That's the plan as shown (hopefully) on the image above.
And it only works, if distance between POINT A and POINT B are not more than 15 Km at the most!
Use 19 dbi if distance POINT B to POINT C is no more than 4 Km, or use 23 dbi if distance is no more than 6 Km.
If it is further, you will need two more of the grid antennas for connecting POINT B and POINT C instead of 19 or 23 dbi.

for the configuration with winbox or command line please look at the wiki (link attached) http://wiki.mikrotik.com/wiki/Transpare ... o_Networks

You have to make two wds, one from RB411 on POINT A to RB333 first r52 on POINT B, and one from RB333 second r52 to RB411 at POINT C.

For further questions about setting up the RB's I suggest we wait till you have approved a perfect line of sight within the above conditions. (If you can't get LOS, well, then the link will not work, no matter what u put in winbox! ;-)

C.U.
 
Schnulch
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Re: LINK P-P 12Km. NLOS with 133c

Mon Apr 28, 2008 5:01 pm

You could of course use the RB133 you alreday have instead of the RB411 I suggested.
 
sdefabrizio
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Re: LINK P-P 12Km. NLOS with 133c

Tue Apr 29, 2008 4:44 pm

Hi,
i'm back again.

I sent back the old kit to my supplier and I found a fault on the RB's.
Now he is sending me back a new kit with

- 5ghz Panel antenna 23dbi
- rb133
- SR5

Just a question: if I test it in my home (for example 2-3 mts. far each) can I damage something ?

How works the alignment-mode ?
I get the beeps with this mode ?

Thanks again for all the info and the help you are giving me !

Stefano
 
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Re: LINK P-P 12Km. NLOS with 133c

Wed Apr 30, 2008 11:11 am

I would not use the 23 db antenna to test indoors, just use small 2 to 4 dbi antenna for testing. With 23 dbi you would get a signal of about -5 to -8 db, that's quite high, even reducing the output power level to 1 db would let you have ~ -12 to -15 db. Some people can tell of problems with links beyond -40 db, and it might (never happened to me, but I didn't try with large antenna) damage your cards receiver part. Get yourself two pigtails and two small "rubberduck" antenna (very cheap, 5 ghz 4-5 dbi about 5 Euro each) if you want to test indoors, or do a testlink to a friend or neighbour of at least 100 - 200 meters with the 23dbi antennas.

The alignment mode is to ease the installation of lots of clients for a WISP, but even in that scenario i prefer looking at the exact measurings of signal level in winbox. You only have to adjust two units, so i would connect a notebook to lan-port of RB and watch the signal with winbox. I think it's more accurat than beeps, and it's less work for me to explain. ;)

I assume, you found a good line of sight for your connection though, didn't you?
 
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Re: LINK P-P 12Km. NLOS with 133c

Tue May 06, 2008 3:30 pm

hi guys, i'm back again with more tests done.

Now i've got my new antennas with 23db rb133c and r52 inside.

I tested as this image (olginate) the link at a distance of 7.5km with a link of -72db PERFECTLY working !
and at the first time !!!!! :D
Image

After I put the RX antenna to AIRUNO (the final position) and I cannot get the link. :(
maybe because of fresnel zone just near the target position as in picture.
Image

if I put an XR5 radio you think I can get the link ?

Thanks again
Stefano
 
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Re: LINK P-P 12Km. NLOS with 133c

Tue May 06, 2008 5:09 pm

another question:

i found out that now my 133c is using 0db as "antenna gain" and "regulatory domain" (italy) for "frequency mode".

When I go to "TX Power" page i get 18dbm at 6mbs. Does it mean that I'm using an output power of 18dbm ?!?!?!?

Since that I have a 23dbi of antenna gain and a R52 of 65mW (18dbm) I suppose I can put.
- antenna gain 23db
- manual tx power for (frequency mode)
- in "TX Power" page: default

and in this case I see 18dbm aty 6mbs that add to 23dbi of my antenna gain i get the full power available of my system.

Is it correct ??!?!?!?!?
Last edited by sdefabrizio on Tue May 06, 2008 5:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
Schnulch
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Re: LINK P-P 12Km. NLOS with 133c

Tue May 06, 2008 5:12 pm

Hi Stefano,

I did a little search with google earth and found your location near lago di como. I then drawed a line from your punto A to punto b and looked at the elevation levels of the ground in that line. At about 3.5 Km from your punto b there is a height of about 215 m over sea, which is crossing your line of sight for at least 3 to 5 meters (ground level on punto a, b and on that mentioned point 3.5 Km from b). As there are buildings at all 3 locations, my guess is, you cannot see punto a from punto b with your new spotting scope. And more concerning, you don't even get a signal from one point to another at the moment. An XR5 will give you a max of 8 db more output power. So you could get a signal in the low -90's db at best - with 49 dbi, where 30 dbi are allowed!? But I doubt you would even get a signal with an XR5 at all, as half of the fresnel zone (or more) is covered by ground. The link will not work this way, I assure you.

Your best chance is to look for a higher place (a village or town on a hill / mountain) from where you can see both punto a and punto b and do a link test to both points from there. Perhaps it will work from punto a to Olginate, and from Olginate to your punto b. (Check with spotting scope -> no sight of the point, where the antenna will be (is) mounted, no wireless link!)
About a Km North of punto a there is a hill that is more than 350 meters high, with houses on it. Perhaps that could be a possibility.
I'm sorry that i can't help you more, but you know the region better than me, so take your spotting scope (and your girlfriend? (that's up to you ;)) and drive around to find a good spot for your link position.

If you've found a place that's good, ask somebody there if you could mount your equipment on their roof or alike, and then buy another set of RB133 with 23 dbi antenna with r52. Then do, as written some posts above, a link from punto a to the new found place, and another from there to punto b. Just plug an ethernet cable in the two RB133 at the new place, and your link will work.

Good luck
 
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Re: LINK P-P 12Km. NLOS with 133c

Tue May 06, 2008 5:19 pm

If you want to get full power, leave the antenna gain on 0db and leave tx-power to default (regulatory domain on wirelss tab of winbox). Leave tx-power at default for ever and always, every other setting i tried did not achieve better results, most of the time they were worse.
You can see on the tx-power tab the settings of the card that are used at a certain speed grade, if you change antenna gain to a value of 23, the table at tx-power will change and show the values used ba your RB. If you have antenna gain set to 0db, and tx-power to default, you will be transmitting at 23+14db to 23+18db, which means 37 to 41 dbi, from 6 Mbps to 54 Mbps.
An XR5 will add about 8 db to that max, but way beyond any legal limits, and if you can't get at least a weak signal with R52 and 23 dbi antenna, don't bother trying with an XR5, you will not be happy with the result at all.
 
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jordantrx
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Re: LINK P-P 12Km. NLOS with 133c

Fri May 09, 2008 5:07 am

i've just bought this spotting scope, hoping to get the line of sigh !!!!

http://www.konus.com/prodotti.php?id_c=4&id_p=432

what's you think about it ?

Stefano
Hi Stefano,

some of the comments on here amaze me :shock: , for 12km LoS at 30dBi limit you only need normal R52 cards, no need for XR5's!! etc..

if you used your 30dB! antenna then you would only be able to drive it with 1 milliwatt (0dBm) !, allowing for cable losses etc.. that maybe nearer 3dBm at the card.

two 30dB antennas will give a very good signal, really hard to align! but good. thats a total link antenna gain of 60 dB, so as mentioned earlier the path loss is say 129dB, subtract 60 leaves 69 so with 0dBm of antenna drive the signals will be about -69dBm which is good enough for a link.

another simpler option is two RIC522C's, thats about 22dBi gain each end, set the cards to ~9dBm (allow for pigtail losses) and you have a link the same as the dishes but without the coaxes, dishes and hassle :)

as mentioned, set one end to station, other end to bridge. or turn on WDS at the bridge and use station-wds for a better bridge. (you can bridge station-wds with an ethernet port!, you cannot station mode)

cheers
I thought this wasent LOS.... NLOS... I dont know...
~Agricultural WISP "ZONE"~ Beware of oncoming cattle and dont hit the farmer!!! I need to ask him about using his silo for an AP first"~

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Re: LINK P-P 12Km. NLOS with 133c

Fri May 09, 2008 9:37 am

Bill is on a RIC selling rampage :lol:
 
sdefabrizio
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Re: LINK P-P 12Km. NLOS with 133c

Wed May 14, 2008 11:44 am

Hi and I need again some informations please...

Now i'm testing all the way to the target to see were exactly the signal is stopping.

but I would like to understand better a thing:
why in the TX Power page (default) i see a value of 26 (19) in sqares.

Image

what does it means ?

Thanks.
Stefano
 
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Re: LINK P-P 12Km. NLOS with 133c

Wed May 14, 2008 3:49 pm

It's reflecting the offset.
 
sdefabrizio
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Re: LINK P-P 12Km. NLOS with 133c

Wed May 14, 2008 4:14 pm

offset ?!?!?!

can you please explain better ?

Thanks.
Stefano
 
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Re: LINK P-P 12Km. NLOS with 133c

Wed May 14, 2008 4:41 pm

OK. So you have 5m obstruction, 1/2 fresenal zone impedance and buildings on top of your obstruction. For all the ordering, time, and possible neighborly drama trying to get someone to share their rooftop, just jack your antennas up 10 meters. Some people do this with antenna masts and guy wires (i do not recommend because it takes a day to aim this way, and repair is a pain). Instead buy some rhon 25 style sections, if you have flat roofs, get the flat roof mount, if not buy another 2 sections and mount on the ground. Guy them at the top and middle with steel wire. Climb up and you have a clear signal.

Oh and one more cost, even though it is not very high, get at least one lanyard and safety belt if not a full harness. The belt will be nice to lean back and use two hands while you aim.

Please do a radio mobile, or better site survey first, I would hate to get all set up and find out you need 13m.
Network Consultant in Wichita, KS
 
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jordantrx
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Re: LINK P-P 12Km. NLOS with 133c

Wed May 14, 2008 4:45 pm

offset ?!?!?!

can you please explain better ?

Thanks.
Stefano
In most wireless cards there is an offset in the drivers in the card atleast with mikrotik. usually 10-8dbi. IN 3.0 that offset was automatically compensated. That is what you are seeing there the Offset. So if you want 26dbm you put in 16dbm. Or whatever the offset of your card is. Just google your card with offset in the search. Like "Ubiquiti xr2 offset table"
~Agricultural WISP "ZONE"~ Beware of oncoming cattle and dont hit the farmer!!! I need to ask him about using his silo for an AP first"~

*Automated Billing Installer* http://wiki.mikrotik.com/wiki/AutomatedBilling Built by Krige ;-)
 
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Re: LINK P-P 12Km. NLOS with 133c

Wed May 14, 2008 4:59 pm

ok thanks jordan

so before change my routeros I was seeing 20 (13) now I get 26 (19)
For what I understand if I leave "DEFAULT" power TX the radio is sending all the power is possible.
when the bridge is estabilished the power decrease ?

before I think that I had problems with routeros since that I had version 2.9 on bridge and station. now I update all.

I wil remake test tomorrow.

Thanks
stefano
 
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Re: LINK P-P 12Km. NLOS with 133c

Fri Jul 18, 2008 12:58 pm

Hi sdefabrizio,

Did you satisfied with your trade with http://www.wifi-stock.com?
We would like to buy some items in lots.

Thanks.

Smith Jones..
 
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Re: LINK P-P 12Km. NLOS with 133c

Sat Jul 19, 2008 2:21 am

Hi Guys, has anyone had successful trade with http://www.wifi-stock.com?
We'd like to buy quite alot of gear from them, we just want to know that people who have ordered have received their order.

Regards
Dan
 
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Re: LINK P-P 12Km. NLOS with 133c

Tue May 11, 2010 4:57 pm

This tools help you to check link aviability for iphone

WiPlan: Align antennas && Topograhpic profile
http://itunes.apple.com/es/artist/turbo ... d351879760

WiCalc: Wireless calculator
http://itunes.apple.com/es/app/wicalc/id351879757?mt=8
 
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Re: LINK P-P 12Km. NLOS with 133c

Fri May 14, 2010 4:10 pm

Cool programs, although quite expensive.

But don't cross-post, Fumi ! It's enough to give the links in one place.
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