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RB450 Capacitors problem?

Posted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 6:54 pm
by gustkiller
Hi,

the last two months i had 5 rb450 with the same problem. It stops to work , and them the eth4 and eth5 leds turns on a very weak light. All these RB450 had been working for about 8 to 10 months.. :( when opened, i found ttwo capacitors leaked and blowed ( su'scom 560uf 6.3 volts..) I just bought about 50 rb450g and found out that they have the same capacitors... should i be worried?? is this a known issue? the problem is the lost of reliability :( .


There's anyway to fix the broken boards?

Re: RB450 Capacitors problem?

Posted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 8:24 pm
by zanetti
Welcome to the world of Mikrotik.

I've had 20 RB450s with blown capacitors. The reseller has been successful in replacing some, the others I've just gone out and bought the 6.3v capacitor (I upgraded to 680uf) and soldered them in myself. You'll need 3 per board.

Re: RB450 Capacitors problem?

Posted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 9:00 pm
by gustkiller
thanks!!

any problem with the 450G version?


i have some rb150 that's been working for years.. with out problems..

Re: RB450 Capacitors problem?

Posted: Wed Feb 10, 2010 10:51 am
by normis
please post pictures of the bad capacitors

Re: RB450 Capacitors problem?

Posted: Wed Feb 10, 2010 10:54 am
by zanetti
I'll have to try to find a board that I haven't repaired yet. However I can point out the capacitors I had to replace in order to make the board operational again.

Thanks

Re: RB450 Capacitors problem?

Posted: Wed Feb 10, 2010 11:00 am
by normis
the bad capacitors are always the same ones? post which ones, and a picture of the problem, if you find such board again

Re: RB450 Capacitors problem?

Posted: Wed Feb 10, 2010 11:40 am
by zanetti
I purchased 20 RB450s in 2008 from Tom at Roc-Noc. During 2009, each of the 20 failed. Tom mentioned that Mikrotik was aware of the capacitor issue and would offer a replacement of the 20 RB450s. In that time I've received a partial replacement. Sadly, due to the substantial delay in receiving the remainder of the RB450 replacements I've had to implement my own repairs, replacing the 3 capacitors in the picture below.

If your RB450 fails, you will see 3 bulging and brown capacitors in the areas I've pointed out below. Replace those and your RB450 will be functional again as well as not having the issue where a rapid power outage will cause the board not to reboot.

Re: RB450 Capacitors problem?

Posted: Wed Feb 10, 2010 11:44 am
by normis
We have seen only the Green one damaged. It would be great to see actual damaged ones ...

Re: RB450 Capacitors problem?

Posted: Wed Feb 10, 2010 11:47 am
by zanetti
The three brown capacitors in the picture I uploaded are the replacement caps I purchased locally. Tom at Roc Noc may be able to take a picture as he has several blown RB450s on his hands.

Re: RB450 Capacitors problem?

Posted: Thu Feb 11, 2010 9:48 pm
by otcpdx
I've got the same problem, here's some photos of the bad caps

My RB450 has been in continuous use for about 1.5 years now. It was also probably running a bit hotter than it should have been (sitting on top of a Linksys AP that throws of a lot of heat).

I'll probably just resolder some new caps, as I always like an opportunity to bust out my Weller. :)

Image

Image

Re: RB450 Capacitors problem?

Posted: Fri Feb 12, 2010 12:50 am
by dog
Now I'm curious.
We are using a RB450G as our main router.
Can we have an official statement on whether we should get it replaced by another model?

I found this post: http://www.badcaps.net/forum/showthread ... =su%27scon

Best regards

Max

Re: RB450 Capacitors problem?

Posted: Fri Feb 12, 2010 5:31 am
by roc-noc.com
We have seen only the Green one damaged. It would be great to see actual damaged ones ...
I have about 20 of these back from customers. Here is one of them. Notice the leaking electrolyte and the three bulging electrolytic caps.

Re: RB450 Capacitors problem?

Posted: Fri Feb 12, 2010 6:47 am
by DeVerm
If you can make it fit, try to get caps for a higher voltage instead of higher capacity. It could be that the original ones are a bad batch but so many?? may be at a higher voltage they never fail again.

The trouble is that for a higher voltage they are bigger, so take the board to the electronics shop to see if they fit before you buy.

EDIT: just to be sure, measure the voltage over the capacitors while the board is turned on... you should see a DC voltage. Check if the polarity is right and how high that voltage is. Now you know if the caps have a too low voltage rating and if they are mounted at the right polarity!!

cheers,
Nick.

Re: RB450 Capacitors problem?

Posted: Sun Feb 14, 2010 8:47 am
by jcremin
any problem with the 450G version?
I'd also like to know if the "G" version has the same caps and potential for problems, or if this is limited to the plain 450.

Re: RB450 Capacitors problem?

Posted: Sun Feb 14, 2010 1:44 pm
by congo

Re: RB450 Capacitors problem?

Posted: Mon Feb 15, 2010 7:29 am
by roc-noc.com
any problem with the 450G version?
I'd also like to know if the "G" version has the same caps and potential for problems, or if this is limited to the plain 450.
So far I have only seen this on the RB450. The RB450G appears to be quite different in design.

Tom

Re: RB450 Capacitors problem?

Posted: Mon Feb 15, 2010 6:12 pm
by missinlnk
any problem with the 450G version?
I'd also like to know if the "G" version has the same caps and potential for problems, or if this is limited to the plain 450.
So far I have only seen this on the RB450. The RB450G appears to be quite different in design.

Tom
I'll second this. We have only seen RB450 units with this problem at this point.

Scott @ WISP-Router

Re: RB450 Capacitors problem?

Posted: Wed Feb 17, 2010 1:42 pm
by normis
new batches are already made with different parts and will not have this issue. as soon as we got first problems, we switched supplier immediately

Re: RB450 Capacitors problem?

Posted: Wed Feb 17, 2010 4:29 pm
by csickles
Seen that problen MANY times on PC hardware..

Dell was FULL of them for a while...

They were swapping mail boards like crazy...
I had a pair of 270 small form factor units affected...

Intel, acer, and just about everyone has had there share of them...

We call them " Jiffypop " caps...

Swap them out with higher qualtiy caps and all is well.. ( If the unit hasent been run too long and damaged the power circuit..)

Keep the values the same ( Voltage can be a bit higher )..
Cap "values" "CAN" be critical... if it is a passive filter cap then not so much,,
If it is part of a "charge pump" circuit then it can be very critical... (Can affect output voltage or load on charge pump voltage controler)

Change out sould only take about 3 - 5 Min each... An experianced tech with a bit of practice can do them all in about 5 Min..

Re: RB450 Capacitors problem?

Posted: Sat Mar 06, 2010 11:39 am
by dprus
I just had this happen to a RB450G I own. Here are the pics:
pic1.jpg
pic2.jpg
I will have had the unit for a year next week. I bought it from rocnoc.com, so hopefully they can repair/replace it for me. Otherwise I'm going to have to learn to do some soldering I guess. I'm not very happy about this :(

Re: RB450 Capacitors problem?

Posted: Sat Mar 06, 2010 12:24 pm
by Raf
Wonder when MT will use solid capacitors just like Gigabyte on their motherboards. RouterBOARDs work 24/7 and they should have them. Maybe not in 750/G model (SOHO).

Re: RB450 Capacitors problem?

Posted: Sun Mar 07, 2010 4:05 pm
by roadracer96
I really hope I dont start seeing this problem. I have about 80 450Gs I rolled out in the last 6 months.

Re: RB450 Capacitors problem?

Posted: Sun Mar 07, 2010 5:37 pm
by roc-noc.com
I really hope I dont start seeing this problem. I have about 80 450Gs I rolled out in the last 6 months.
I don't think you will. This is the first RB450G that we have seen with bulging caps. I am hoping this is an anomaly.

The 450G power circuit design is much different from the older RB450 power circuit where we have seen all the cap problems.

Tom

Re: RB450 Capacitors problem?

Posted: Mon Mar 08, 2010 7:17 am
by rmichael
I really hope I dont start seeing this problem. I have about 80 450Gs I rolled out in the last 6 months.
I don't think you will. This is the first RB450G that we have seen with bulging caps. I am hoping this is an anomaly.

The 450G power circuit design is much different from the older RB450 power circuit where we have seen all the cap problems.

Tom
Normis wrote that remedy was to change the suplier indicating parts quality as the issue - not the design. Therefore it remains to be seen how many boards were made with low quality parts before problem was identified.

Re: RB450 Capacitors problem?

Posted: Mon Mar 08, 2010 8:37 am
by normis
A very small number, we found the problem and changed supplier immediately

Re: RB450 Capacitors problem?

Posted: Tue Mar 09, 2010 12:48 pm
by petrik
Why dont you start using solid state capacitors? Are they that much more expensive? I guess that for router HW, which can be easily in operation for more than 10 years customers would wish to see capacitors that will last that long.

Re: RB450 Capacitors problem?

Posted: Tue Mar 09, 2010 12:50 pm
by normis
yes, that's what we did

Re: RB450 Capacitors problem?

Posted: Tue Mar 09, 2010 12:50 pm
by Raf
+1

Re: RB450 Capacitors problem?

Posted: Thu Apr 01, 2010 6:52 am
by meno
I also have the problem with a RB450G I replaced with another 630uF 16V and works fine yet..

an another things Im seeing the same capacito 6.3V 560uF with the same color, manufactor on RB750 and RB750G

Image

Image


please normis can you confirm that these lots of RB750/RB750G doesnt have that problem

thanks

Re: RB450 Capacitors problem?

Posted: Tue Apr 06, 2010 11:39 pm
by Eising
I ran through all my faulty RB450's, and they all seem to originate from the same three shipments received in 2008. It would seem that the issue is not present in newer batches of RB450.

Re: RB450 Capacitors problem?

Posted: Wed May 26, 2010 5:19 pm
by risipetillo
My Main router which is an RB450 seems to be having the same problem. I opened up the case and noticed "brown" stuff leaking out of the 3 capacitors previously noted in previous posts.

I'm going down to Fry's to look for replacement capacitors.

What information should I give the guys at Fry's so that I get the right replacement capacitors?

Re: RB450 Capacitors problem?

Posted: Wed May 26, 2010 8:40 pm
by Eising
I can't recall the exact component name, but write to support, they happily gave that information to me.

Re: RB450 Capacitors problem?

Posted: Thu May 27, 2010 3:17 am
by risipetillo
Would any of these capacitors work: http://www.alliedelec.com/passive-compo ... 7106&No=20

Additionally, why am I forced to buy capacitors if this was a known "bad" batch of capacitors which is causing this problem.

I called the Distributor who I bought my rb450 from, and they told me that I can't RMA the box. :shock:

Re: RB450 Capacitors problem?

Posted: Thu May 27, 2010 3:25 am
by omega-00
We've had some RB450G's hit by power surges previously that I've fixed myself.

Had no problems replacing the 6.3v 560uF original capacitors with *similar* ones.
In this case the replacements are 10v 470uF and the 3 replaced are the ones in a line in the middle of the board.
105446760.jpg
Gives me a chance to practice my soldering skills and teaches people why they should invest in surge protectors hehe.

Re: RB450 Capacitors problem?

Posted: Thu May 27, 2010 7:10 am
by omega-00
yes, that's what we did
Put on solid state caps?
Got a picture of one of the newer boards?

I'm interested to see as if the mounts for the solid state caps are the ones I think they are I might replace the next one that comes across my desk with those instead.

Also tempted to try building my own RB compatible device using IC's from a broken one at some point.. just as a hobby :-D

Re: RB450 Capacitors problem?

Posted: Thu May 27, 2010 7:33 am
by THG
In this case the replacements are 10v 470uF and the 3 replaced are the ones in a line in the middle of the board.
Only 10 volt? How about this one? :)

400 Volt
-40/+105 °C

Re: RB450 Capacitors problem?

Posted: Thu May 27, 2010 10:54 am
by aaa
Lead spacing and package is too big. Use 470uF - 680uF and 6,3V - 16V capacitors with 3,5mm lead spacing.It's posible use 5mm lead spacing but need aditional lead forming. Don't forget about polarity.

Re: RB450 Capacitors problem?

Posted: Fri May 28, 2010 7:58 am
by THG
I know that lead spacing is too wide, the capacitor is 25mm in diameter. The type of capacitor in the picture is probably one of the best you can find, it'll last forever. I think the capacitors life time is 18 000 hours at the specified temperature (105°C).

Re: RB450 Capacitors problem?

Posted: Fri May 28, 2010 9:44 am
by aaa
No, just 4000h at 105C

Standards IEC 60384-4 Long Life Grade 40/105/56,
in accordance with CECC 30 301-809
Capacitance range 150–22000 μF
Capacitance tolerance –20 to +20%
Rated voltage 35–450 VDC
Temperature range –40 to +105°C
Leakage current, IRL (μA) 0.003 (μA) x CR (μF) x UR (V)
Operational life time 4000 hours at +105°C
Shelf life 4 years at 0 Volt and +40°C
Diameter range 25–35 mm

Re: RB450 Capacitors problem?

Posted: Fri May 28, 2010 11:37 am
by THG
You are right, I posted wrong picture, but 4000 hours at that temperature is not bad.

Re: RB450 Capacitors problem?

Posted: Fri May 28, 2010 5:59 pm
by risipetillo
Found the Capacitors at Fry's. Replaced them on the board, and now I'm operational again.

Thanks to all for your assistance !!!

:D

Re: RB450 Capacitors problem?

Posted: Wed Jun 09, 2010 2:49 pm
by erkel
Have 4 x 450G's Anyone experienced the issue on the 450G's to any extent. I am sending some off to a site in China, so need to know asap, so I can swap the caps out now if need be.

Re: RB450 Capacitors problem?

Posted: Wed Jun 09, 2010 4:22 pm
by roc-noc.com
Have 4 x 450G's Anyone experienced the issue on the 450G's to any extent. I am sending some off to a site in China, so need to know asap, so I can swap the caps out now if need be.
Power them with a 12vdc supply instead of the normal 24vdc supply. They run much cooler and the caps won't have to work as hard (should last much longer).

Tom

Re: RB450 Capacitors problem?

Posted: Tue Jul 06, 2010 7:03 am
by zanetti
I just finished replacing the caps on 5 RB450's. Still no offers of compensation from Mikrotik or the reseller.

Re: RB450 Capacitors problem?

Posted: Tue Jul 06, 2010 8:08 pm
by rmichael
I just finished replacing the caps on 5 RB450's. Still no offers of compensation from Mikrotik or the reseller.
I wonder how MT warranties their products in Europe. Europe has mandatory warranty period I believe.

Re: RB450 Capacitors problem?

Posted: Tue Jul 06, 2010 10:22 pm
by missinlnk
I just finished replacing the caps on 5 RB450's. Still no offers of compensation from Mikrotik or the reseller.
I wonder how MT warranties their products in Europe. Europe has mandatory warranty period I believe.
Mikrotik usually handles the warranties by repairing the equipment themselves, not by reimbursing someone else to repair the equipment. Not sure if that is allowed under the different EU countries laws, though.

Re: RB450 Capacitors problem?

Posted: Tue Jul 06, 2010 10:39 pm
by THG
I wonder how MT warranties their products in Europe. Europe has mandatory warranty period I believe.
Effective from 1st January 2002, the EU Directive to extend warranty on consumer products from 1- to 2- years, came into effect. This directive only impacts EU member state countries and will be phased in as the EU member states implement the directive. As of 1st January 2002 the following EU member states have implemented this EU Directive: Austria, Belgium, Denmark, Finland, Germany The Netherlands, Norway, Italy and Sweden.

So the country you bought it in is very important, since a directive is merely an instruction to each government to implement a law, and has no meaning until they do.

Directive 1999/44/EC of the European Parliament and of the Council of 25 May 1999 on certain aspects of the sale of consumer goods and associated guarantees

http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/Lex ... 44:en:HTML

Re: RB450 Capacitors problem?

Posted: Wed Jul 07, 2010 12:11 am
by mcb
Not in the home of Mikrotik. 1 year, bye-bye.
Offices answer on the phone was - "buy a new one!"
Yes I will, but why would I buy another Mikrotik?
Of course will try to solder new capacitators, but if that won't help - any working OpenWRT/DD-WRT solution or will use my Linux webserver as a router.

Re: RB450 Capacitors problem?

Posted: Wed Jul 07, 2010 11:57 pm
by amadeus
Hi,

I'm sorry to report that my RB450G died today - looks like faulty capacitors :(
This unit was purchased on March 2009.
rb450g_capacitor.JPG
--
Morten

Re: RB450 Capacitors problem?

Posted: Thu Jul 08, 2010 9:40 am
by zanetti
Hi,

I'm sorry to report that my RB450G died today - looks like faulty capacitors :(
This unit was purchased on March 2009.
rb450g_capacitor.JPG
--
Morten
Who did you buy your RB450 from?