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mgiammarco
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Adsl integrated (again?)

Tue Apr 13, 2010 11:12 pm

Hello,
probably someone asked you already this thing.

You have a product with extended range temperature and watchdog support.

I can install this product on client remote sites on the outside (in a ip water proof container) and I am sure that it works always and if there are problems it auto reset itself.

The problem is that to connect to adsl I need a modem. Adsl modems have NO watchdog and NO extended temperature range. So it may happen that adsl modem brokes and even if mikrotik router is perfectly working I cannot reach it from internet.

So.... please add adsl interface to your routers, you can extend your market.

Thank you,

Mario
 
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normis
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Re: Adsl integrated (again?)

Wed Apr 14, 2010 8:44 am

we don't have any products with ADSL modems. IP67 cases you can find at our distributors.
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mgiammarco
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Re: Adsl integrated (again?)

Wed Apr 14, 2010 10:38 am

we don't have any products with ADSL modems. IP67 cases you can find at our distributors.
Probably I have not explained myself. The IP67 case is not a problem.

I am talking about the fact that most advantages of mikrotik routers (watchdog, extended temp range) are wasted when you use a standard adsl modem in a remote installation.

So in the (niche?) market of remote (outdoor) installations for remote control I cannot use mikrotik routers.

I have bought several mikrotik routers if they have adsl integrated.

Thanks,
Mario
 
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normis
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Re: Adsl integrated (again?)

Wed Apr 14, 2010 12:04 pm

We might have it in future products
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Re: Adsl integrated (again?)

Thu Apr 15, 2010 7:51 am

mgiammarco, try Draytek modems they will do full bridge, as well as PPPoE-->PPPoA proxy and seem to be very reliable. We have them installed at client branch offices at the other end of the county and have no issues with them.

I have noticed they seem to be popular with other Mikrotik users as well.



Regards,




Andrew
http://thebrotherswisp.com/ | Mikrotik MTCNA, MTCRE, MTCINE | Fortinet FTCNA, FCNSP, FCT | Extreme Networks ENA
 
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JwTPN
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Re: Adsl integrated (again?)

Thu Apr 15, 2010 12:51 pm

I personally would love to see a ADSL mikrotik product, would be dam cool.
Justin Wells
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void
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Re: Adsl integrated (again?)

Thu Apr 15, 2010 1:36 pm

I think integrated is a very bad idea unless it's implemented modular like on a minipci or something.

The reason for this is that different providers are using different technologies and I don't want to change routers every time I switch providers or the provider to change it's network technology. For example where I'm living providers are phasing out ADSL and rolling out VDSL2+. And what about cable modems etc ?
 
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Re: Adsl integrated (again?)

Thu Apr 15, 2010 1:50 pm

isn't VDSL+ modems backwards compatible?
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void
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Re: Adsl integrated (again?)

Thu Apr 15, 2010 3:08 pm

Normis, yes, I think you are correct. So you would consider making a RB with VDSL ? :D
 
hedele
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Re: Adsl integrated (again?)

Thu Apr 15, 2010 3:43 pm

Hi Normis,

VDSL2+ Modems can be backwards compatible, depending on chipset and software implementation.
For example, Thomson TG787v Modems are VDSL2+ compatible and have ADSL fallback.
Also, I know of the Pirelli AV4202N VDSL2+ Modem, which is backwards compatible to ADSL2+ as well.

By themselves, a lot of VDSL2+ chipsets on the market are backwards compatible, but modem manufacturers usually skip implementing the ATM Protocol (which would be needed for ADSL mode operation).
 
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Re: Adsl integrated (again?)

Mon Apr 19, 2010 12:56 am

ADSL is usable but limited.

VDSL is better but still lacks popularity.

Now what about an "nstreme"-like protocol for two copper wires? MikroTik devices at both sides - at the TelCo and at the customer premise.

This would be needed for HDTV at distances from 500m to 2-3km, utilising the telephone copper wires already in place underground.

These devices would compete with ADSL, VDSL for big telecom purchases and with Ethernet Extenders for smaller volumes. MikroTik could use what they know for nstreme on wireless and try to make something like that for already existing ADSL, VDSL and other chipsets, or they could work together with a chipset manufacturer to make a new chipset. One that would put ADSL, VDSL, and the classic ethernet extenders, modems etc crap in history.

To achieve that the new product would need to enable greater speeds, greater packet rates, greater QoS, better ping etc, and basicly HDTV.

p.s.: what about bonding of sets of telephone wires - two lines, trhee lines, four lines etc..

p.s. 2: don't make this product because it will be a hit to the (small) ISP industry because we compete with the stinking ADSL, providing better service via 100m and 1gig ethernet.
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hedele
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Re: Adsl integrated (again?)

Mon Apr 19, 2010 10:59 am

Now what about an "nstreme"-like protocol for two copper wires? MikroTik devices at both sides - at the TelCo and at the customer premise.

This would be needed for HDTV at distances from 500m to 2-3km, utilising the telephone copper wires already in place underground.
Well, that is easier said than done.
I work at a DSL ISP which does ULL (unbundling) and therefore operates it's own DSLAMs and the other related "crap" as you named it :)

The fact is - there is no way in hell that you are ever going to be allowed to operate some strange mikrotik copper-nstream over the public telephone network because of the interference etc. it will cause to the other phone lines.
While it would still be possible to develop something like that, it will definitely be confined to indoor cabling because no telco company in the world will ever allow you to use it in the public phone network. at least not in western europe.

In fact I think it would be smarter to just build some routerboard with a VDSL2 or ADSL2+ chipset on board. These are proven to work and you can actually use them because they are allowed by telco regulations.

The ADSL2+/VDSL2 Chipset could then be elegantly abstracted by Mikrotik, e.g providing a PPP channel per ATM virtual circuit or an ethernet interface if operated in Ethernet over ATM mode (ADSL) or just treating it like another Ethernet Interface (VDSL2 - supports VLANs etc as it transports Ethernet natively, not ATM).

PS: If there are any movements inside Mikrotik to implement ADSL/VDSL chipsets - please take a closer look at the broadcom chipsets - they are usually of higher quality and capability than the outdated Texas Instruments chipsets. Also they can be nicely controlled in Linux using the adslctl tool.
 
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Re: Adsl integrated (again?)

Mon Apr 19, 2010 12:16 pm

OK well cant we just use the BRCM ADSL chipses but without ATM ? ATM wastes a lot of bandwidth.
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hedele
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Re: Adsl integrated (again?)

Mon Apr 19, 2010 12:58 pm

There is no way you could connect to any ADSL DSLAM that way as ATM is the only transport protocol that ADSL understands.
VDSL2 uses PTM (Packet Transfer Mode), which is a bit more efficient when transporting Ethernet.

Also, ADSL is a master/slave connection, the Modem (more specific the chipset built into the modem) is the slave - so connecting two adsl equipped mikrotiks together via ADSL won't work.
 
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Re: Adsl integrated (again?)

Mon Apr 19, 2010 1:16 pm

Yes but what if we replace the DLSAM software or the entire hardware? Can we get rid of ATM? And other limitations?

I mean can the old hardware work with new software to ger rid of ATM and to just transport IP protocol for minimised overhead :)
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Re: Adsl integrated (again?)

Mon Apr 19, 2010 1:20 pm

It would be easier if RB can not reset itself but also reset external devices....
 
void
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Re: Adsl integrated (again?)

Mon Apr 19, 2010 1:22 pm

Networkpro,

So you would want something like Long Reach Ethernet ? In that case it would be better that the RB could act as both a VDSL DSLAM & client.
 
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Re: Adsl integrated (again?)

Mon Apr 19, 2010 2:04 pm

Absolutely. That would PWN dude!
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void
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Re: Adsl integrated (again?)

Mon Apr 19, 2010 7:42 pm

Yes, certainly. Not only usefull for small communities but also hotels etc. that only have 2-wire cabling.
 
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Re: Adsl integrated (again?)

Mon Apr 19, 2010 7:57 pm

And what if the new chipset could auto-detect if the wires are twisted pair or coaxial. And what if it could co-operate with TV on the same coaxial cable.
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Re: Adsl integrated (again?)

Mon Apr 19, 2010 10:15 pm

/me is interested in VDSL2-Master- and Client-Modem as miniPCI card too.
 
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Re: Adsl integrated (again?)

Tue Apr 20, 2010 8:18 am

It would be nice if Mikrotik port RouterOS to run on the BCM6368 platform, and make a RouterBoard 750 type device based around it.

Broadcom provide a linux based SDK, making a port relatively simple. The hardware is nice and stable, and it will allow VDSL2 and ADSL2+ connectivity. I guess the hard part will be adding all the ATM bits and pieces into WinBox/CLI and designing the hardware.
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Re: Adsl integrated (again?)

Tue Apr 20, 2010 10:10 am

@MT ppl: Just buy the ready design from Thomson (Technicolor) for example and RouterOS-it. :) Buy their ADSL driver as well (maybe its a standard binary from Broadcom), I think its brilliant. After that - improve it on your own.
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hedele
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Re: Adsl integrated (again?)

Tue Apr 20, 2010 5:42 pm

And what if the new chipset could auto-detect if the wires are twisted pair or coaxial.
You cannot do that. DSL technologies are made to work with twisted-pair, it probably won't work at all with coaxial cables.
 
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Re: Adsl integrated (again?)

Wed Apr 21, 2010 10:47 pm

I have a qustion.

ADSL has channels (channels werre they called?) and if a channel is noisy, it simply is not used.

Why are we not using this technique for wireless? Somene ask Atheros and MikroTik to make it. :)
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hedele
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Re: Adsl integrated (again?)

Thu Apr 22, 2010 11:24 am

That is called DMT (Discrete Multitone Modulation) - which is related to OFDM, used in WLAN :)

I don't think DMT would be fit for usage in WLAN scenarios because of the sheer complexity of juggling hundreds of transmission channels in thin air instead of copper wire.
 
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Re: Adsl integrated (again?)

Thu Apr 22, 2010 11:41 am

For example now we have miniPCI cards and RouterOS and whe you select DFS mode: no radar detect - it kinda tries to find a free channel.

So what if we had miniPCI cards that could work on multiple 5MHz channels or multiple 5 to 40 MHz channels and the DFS Mode, or similar feature could find the free/best working channels automatically.

I guess the hard part would be:

1. multi-channel cards that can operate on multiple channels at the same time in parallel / or a wideband card that can turn of parts of its band
2. wideband antennas
3. "DFS Mode" that would truly select good channels, and not just some that "seem" good but actually are not.
4. all this in realtime without dropping traffic or at least the high prio marked traffic.
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Re: Adsl integrated (again?)

Sat Jun 30, 2012 2:48 pm

Is there something new in mikrotik co. about some RB with ADSL integrated support?
 
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normis
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Re: Adsl integrated (again?)

Mon Jul 02, 2012 10:23 am

Is there something new in mikrotik co. about some RB with ADSL integrated support?
currently we have no planned ADSL products in near future
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Re: Adsl integrated (again?)

Mon Jul 02, 2012 11:09 am

What about someone else's existing ADSL solution inside the RouterBOARD case, connected internally with Ethernet or USB, making a fool-proof "CPE", where the customer would be prevented from sabotaging his own service by unplugging an external cable or dongle?
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