Community discussions

MikroTik App
 
hapi
Member Candidate
Member Candidate
Topic Author
Posts: 224
Joined: Fri Mar 11, 2011 11:21 am
Location: Czech Republic

RouterBoards and ESD compatibility

Thu Jul 28, 2011 10:47 am

how can I ground the SXT? supplied with plastic and POE power supply is not grounded. Where is ESD protection?

What devices are ESD protection on the Ethernet? In Datasheet not written anything about the ESD on the Ethernet. The ESD is only on the RF port But Not on Ethernet. Why?


The equipment is not damaged by using direct lightning. Only surges. PC or switch is not damaged. Typically RB711 is damaged.



This is damaged equipment only last week on ethernet ports or power supply on board!!!
RBs.jpg
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
Last edited by hapi on Thu Jul 28, 2011 10:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
User avatar
normis
MikroTik Support
MikroTik Support
Posts: 24608
Joined: Fri May 28, 2004 11:04 am
Location: Riga, Latvia

Re: RouterBoards and ESD compatibility

Thu Jul 28, 2011 10:48 am

No answer to your question? How to write posts
 
hapi
Member Candidate
Member Candidate
Topic Author
Posts: 224
Joined: Fri Mar 11, 2011 11:21 am
Location: Czech Republic

Re: RouterBoards and ESD compatibility

Thu Jul 28, 2011 10:52 am

ok, can you please draw a picture as it is meant?
 
User avatar
normis
MikroTik Support
MikroTik Support
Posts: 24608
Joined: Fri May 28, 2004 11:04 am
Location: Riga, Latvia

Re: RouterBoards and ESD compatibility

Thu Jul 28, 2011 10:56 am

please clarify which part you find unclear? there is a grounding connector on the board, see page 3 drawing, it's indicated in the image.
No answer to your question? How to write posts
 
hapi
Member Candidate
Member Candidate
Topic Author
Posts: 224
Joined: Fri Mar 11, 2011 11:21 am
Location: Czech Republic

Re: RouterBoards and ESD compatibility

Thu Jul 28, 2011 11:05 am

the unit, I remove the ground cable FTP cable and connect it to the ground loop? seriously? Why it can not connect to the shield connector, as with normal FTP install?

How do I connect the cable on the other side? That part of what is inside the house?
 
User avatar
normis
MikroTik Support
MikroTik Support
Posts: 24608
Joined: Fri May 28, 2004 11:04 am
Location: Riga, Latvia

Re: RouterBoards and ESD compatibility

Thu Jul 28, 2011 11:28 am

What devices are ESD protection on the Ethernet? In Datasheet not written anything about the ESD on the Ethernet. The ESD is only on the RF port But Not on Ethernet. Why?
All outdoor devices have ESD protection on ethernet also (RB750, RB450 don't have). Detailed kV numbers I don't have available right now, I will find out and post.
No answer to your question? How to write posts
 
hapi
Member Candidate
Member Candidate
Topic Author
Posts: 224
Joined: Fri Mar 11, 2011 11:21 am
Location: Czech Republic

Re: RouterBoards and ESD compatibility

Thu Jul 28, 2011 11:36 am

Now I asked the SXT. I want to clarify how the client SXT ground.

The RB711 will get later.
 
User avatar
normis
MikroTik Support
MikroTik Support
Posts: 24608
Joined: Fri May 28, 2004 11:04 am
Location: Riga, Latvia

Re: RouterBoards and ESD compatibility

Thu Jul 28, 2011 11:39 am

I will speak to our experienced wireless engineers who will make a clearer description for you, I will post it then.
No answer to your question? How to write posts
 
hapi
Member Candidate
Member Candidate
Topic Author
Posts: 224
Joined: Fri Mar 11, 2011 11:21 am
Location: Czech Republic

Re: RouterBoards and ESD compatibility

Thu Jul 28, 2011 11:58 am

so you recommend grounding but do not know how?

He should have tried harder, MikroTik.
 
User avatar
normis
MikroTik Support
MikroTik Support
Posts: 24608
Joined: Fri May 28, 2004 11:04 am
Location: Riga, Latvia

Re: RouterBoards and ESD compatibility

Thu Jul 28, 2011 12:01 pm

so you recommend grounding but do not know how?

He should have tried harder, MikroTik.
I gave you link to the manual where it is explained that you have to connect a grounding wire to the grounding installation in the tower. It's not so hard to understand. You said you had difficulty and needed a drawing. A drawing takes time.
No answer to your question? How to write posts
 
hapi
Member Candidate
Member Candidate
Topic Author
Posts: 224
Joined: Fri Mar 11, 2011 11:21 am
Location: Czech Republic

Re: RouterBoards and ESD compatibility

Thu Jul 28, 2011 12:14 pm

ok, wait you for that drawing.
 
User avatar
normis
MikroTik Support
MikroTik Support
Posts: 24608
Joined: Fri May 28, 2004 11:04 am
Location: Riga, Latvia

Re: RouterBoards and ESD compatibility

Thu Jul 28, 2011 12:19 pm

Here is a quick illustration of the grounding connector. Attach a grounding wire to the grounding installation of the tower.

The installation infrastructure (towers and masts), as well as antennas and the router itself must be properly grounded, and lightning arrestors must be installed on all external antenna cables (near the antennas or on the antennas themselves) to prevent equipment damage and human injury. Note that lightning arrestors will not have any effect if not grounded.

Use 1 AWG (7mm in diameter) wire with corrosion-resistant connectors for grounding. Be sure to check that the grounding infrastructure you use is indeed functional (as opposed to decorative-only grounding present on some sites).

Only shielded and outdoor usage Ethernet cables should be used, magnetic shield should be grounded via shielded RJ-45 connector or via additional wire that is soldered to RJ45 or ground wire.

Grounding wire (at least 6mm2) should be connected to RouterBOARD grounding connector, this wire is connected to bottom of the tower and connection to the tower is according to the standards.

Ethernet port ligthing protectors are not recommended, as most of them are not intended to use for PoE (they are shortening PoE supply). If protectors are used, they could be placed at the outdoor case, where RouterBOARD and grounding pads are connected.
Untitled.png
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
No answer to your question? How to write posts
 
User avatar
honzam
Forum Guru
Forum Guru
Posts: 2314
Joined: Wed Feb 27, 2008 10:27 pm
Location: Czech Republic

Re: RouterBoards and ESD compatibility

Thu Jul 28, 2011 12:21 pm

We have over 400 pieces rb711 and see no difference with RB411
Ethernet ports, surge damaged just as the RB411

It may not be a direct hit, just surges and ethernet port is died
LAN, FTTx, Wireless. ISP operator
 
hapi
Member Candidate
Member Candidate
Topic Author
Posts: 224
Joined: Fri Mar 11, 2011 11:21 am
Location: Czech Republic

Re: RouterBoards and ESD compatibility

Thu Jul 28, 2011 12:33 pm

you crazy? this has to be CPE for clients. We will not pass 7 mm2 cable to the unit. How could fasten 7 mm2 cable grounding connector? How do I bring out from the unit? Sorry, but this solution is totally out. Competitive equipment is not damaged and RB711 are damaged often enough.

Why cat5e shielded enough? Source, with a grounding pin. Metal PoE. As the competition.
 
User avatar
normis
MikroTik Support
MikroTik Support
Posts: 24608
Joined: Fri May 28, 2004 11:04 am
Location: Riga, Latvia

Re: RouterBoards and ESD compatibility

Thu Jul 28, 2011 12:37 pm

I wrote to you the ideal grounding setup. You can choose which things you want to customize or adapt to your requirements.
No answer to your question? How to write posts
 
User avatar
honzam
Forum Guru
Forum Guru
Posts: 2314
Joined: Wed Feb 27, 2008 10:27 pm
Location: Czech Republic

Re: RouterBoards and ESD compatibility

Thu Jul 28, 2011 12:43 pm

What devices are ESD protection on the Ethernet? In Datasheet not written anything about the ESD on the Ethernet. The ESD is only on the RF port But Not on Ethernet. Why?
All outdoor devices have ESD protection on ethernet also (RB750, RB450 don't have). Detailed kV numbers I don't have available right now, I will find out and post.
Groove dont have ESD on ethernet?
LAN, FTTx, Wireless. ISP operator
 
User avatar
normis
MikroTik Support
MikroTik Support
Posts: 24608
Joined: Fri May 28, 2004 11:04 am
Location: Riga, Latvia

Re: RouterBoards and ESD compatibility

Thu Jul 28, 2011 12:44 pm

Groove is an outdoor device, so it has Ethernet ESD protection. Only ethernet-only devices don't have it.
No answer to your question? How to write posts
 
User avatar
honzam
Forum Guru
Forum Guru
Posts: 2314
Joined: Wed Feb 27, 2008 10:27 pm
Location: Czech Republic

Re: RouterBoards and ESD compatibility

Thu Jul 28, 2011 12:48 pm

How can we prove that the shielded cable was used?

If a damaged ethernet port so rb411/rb711 complaint is not successful
LAN, FTTx, Wireless. ISP operator
 
User avatar
normis
MikroTik Support
MikroTik Support
Posts: 24608
Joined: Fri May 28, 2004 11:04 am
Location: Riga, Latvia

Re: RouterBoards and ESD compatibility

Thu Jul 28, 2011 3:49 pm

These products don't have Ethernet ESD protection:
RB750, RB750GL, RB250GS, RB1200.

ALL other products on our website has both RF and Ethernet ESD protection. See brochures for values in kV (same for RF and also for Ethernet).

ALL the products that have ESD protection, support protection with a shielded cable. The cable connects the grounding either to the ethernet Shield, or to a special grounding pin inside the connector, if there is no outside shield (plastic connector).
No answer to your question? How to write posts
 
rzirzi
Member
Member
Posts: 387
Joined: Mon Oct 09, 2006 2:33 pm

Re: RouterBoards and ESD compatibility

Thu Jul 28, 2011 8:43 pm

All outdoor devices have ESD protection on ethernet also (RB750, RB450 don't have). Detailed kV numbers I don't have available right now, I will find out and post.
Normis, could You tell me please WHERE EXACTLY is "protection" at RB711-5Hn board? I can't see any "protectors" at the board, and LAN port is directly connected to processor chip.
 
User avatar
normis
MikroTik Support
MikroTik Support
Posts: 24608
Joined: Fri May 28, 2004 11:04 am
Location: Riga, Latvia

Re: RouterBoards and ESD compatibility

Fri Jul 29, 2011 11:08 am

Here is an image.

1) Three arrows mark the grounding inside the ethernet connector, the shielded cable connects it's shield to these two grounding pins. The shielded cable should not be grounded also on the other end, the PoE doesn't need grounding pins, otherwise it will create a grounding loop, so cable shield connects only to the groudning pins at the board, and nowhere at the other end!

2) The middle arrow points to the metal plate inside the connector, which connects the grounding pins to the board. the board needs to be grounded at the mounting hole (put grounding wire on the screw when you mount the board inside a case). any surges will go from the grounding pins, to the grounding plate, to the board, and then to the grounding installation.

3) the two separate arrows show the ESD protection chips on the board in case there was no shielded cable, to protect the CPU and other parts of the board.

The protection is not too effective if you only use shielded cable, and don't ground the board itself. You need to do both things to be successful.
_DSC1557.jpg
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
No answer to your question? How to write posts
 
rzirzi
Member
Member
Posts: 387
Joined: Mon Oct 09, 2006 2:33 pm

Re: RouterBoards and ESD compatibility

Fri Jul 29, 2011 11:37 am

Very clever - Normis! But don't make all your customers - fools or idiots !!!!
It's NEW design RB711-5Hn, that I have never seen before.
I have hundrets of Rb711-5Hn like that one:
http://routerboard.com/img/pricelist//194_hi_res.png - where are "protectors" on THIS board?!!
 
User avatar
normis
MikroTik Support
MikroTik Support
Posts: 24608
Joined: Fri May 28, 2004 11:04 am
Location: Riga, Latvia

Re: RouterBoards and ESD compatibility

Fri Jul 29, 2011 11:39 am

It's exactly the same, don't call everyone fools just because you can't read the PCB layout. The grounding pins are replaced by the metal shield around the connector, and the three small chips are in almost the same position, look closely, they are even the same numbers.
No answer to your question? How to write posts
 
rzirzi
Member
Member
Posts: 387
Joined: Mon Oct 09, 2006 2:33 pm

Re: RouterBoards and ESD compatibility

Fri Jul 29, 2011 11:44 am

It's exactly the same, don't call everyone fools just because you can't read the PCB layout. The grounding pins are replaced by the metal shield around the connector, and the three small chips are in almost the same position, look closely, they are even the same numbers.
So, boards:
http://routerboard.com/RB711-5Hn
http://routerboard.com/RB711-5Hn-M
are the same?!
 
User avatar
normis
MikroTik Support
MikroTik Support
Posts: 24608
Joined: Fri May 28, 2004 11:04 am
Location: Riga, Latvia

Re: RouterBoards and ESD compatibility

Fri Jul 29, 2011 11:46 am

I said that the ESD protection is the same. Yes, functionally they are also the same, just slightly improved layout.
No answer to your question? How to write posts
 
hapi
Member Candidate
Member Candidate
Topic Author
Posts: 224
Joined: Fri Mar 11, 2011 11:21 am
Location: Czech Republic

Re: RouterBoards and ESD compatibility

Fri Jul 29, 2011 12:21 pm

ok Normis. This is shielded cable connection. Is ok? It is sufficient for ESD?
wiringT568B.png
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
 
User avatar
honzam
Forum Guru
Forum Guru
Posts: 2314
Joined: Wed Feb 27, 2008 10:27 pm
Location: Czech Republic

Re: RouterBoards and ESD compatibility

Fri Jul 29, 2011 12:33 pm

It's exactly the same, don't call everyone fools just because you can't read the PCB layout. The grounding pins are replaced by the metal shield around the connector, and the three small chips are in almost the same position, look closely, they are even the same numbers.
So, boards:
http://routerboard.com/RB711-5Hn
http://routerboard.com/RB711-5Hn-M
are the same?!
23 versus 22 dBm transmit power output?
16kV verusus 10kV ESD protection
Any other changes?
New design has already produced and sold?
LAN, FTTx, Wireless. ISP operator
 
User avatar
normis
MikroTik Support
MikroTik Support
Posts: 24608
Joined: Fri May 28, 2004 11:04 am
Location: Riga, Latvia

Re: RouterBoards and ESD compatibility

Fri Jul 29, 2011 1:06 pm

ok Normis. This is shielded cable connection. Is ok? It is sufficient for ESD?
wiringT568B.png
yes, cable is correct. but to protect yourself against bigger surges, not only against smaller static discharges, you need to ground the board itself, like I wrote above. just the shielded cable is a small protection
No answer to your question? How to write posts
 
User avatar
normis
MikroTik Support
MikroTik Support
Posts: 24608
Joined: Fri May 28, 2004 11:04 am
Location: Riga, Latvia

Re: RouterBoards and ESD compatibility

Fri Jul 29, 2011 1:07 pm

23 versus 22 dBm transmit power output?
16kV verusus 10kV ESD protection
New design has already produced and sold?
yes
No answer to your question? How to write posts
 
hapi
Member Candidate
Member Candidate
Topic Author
Posts: 224
Joined: Fri Mar 11, 2011 11:21 am
Location: Czech Republic

Re: RouterBoards and ESD compatibility

Fri Jul 29, 2011 1:29 pm

What do I connect with what? RB711 has no grounding pin.
 
User avatar
normis
MikroTik Support
MikroTik Support
Posts: 24608
Joined: Fri May 28, 2004 11:04 am
Location: Riga, Latvia

Re: RouterBoards and ESD compatibility

Fri Jul 29, 2011 1:31 pm

some more info. two options

1. (Just shielded cable) If you can't ground the RB711/SXT/other device itself, you can ground the device on the other end of your shielded cable (switch, router, etc). If you need to use PoE, you will need to use our older PoE injector, because it allows shielded cable to be used: http://www.roc-noc.com/mikrotik/routerboard/rb-p54.html

This method is not recommended, better ground the board itself also (#2)

2. (Shielded cable + Board grounded) If you connect grounding to the mounting point of the RB711 (or the mounting loop inside SXT door), you don't necessary need to ground the device at other end of the shielded cable. Just using a shielded cable is enough. Special PoE is also not needed. This is the best option to protect against all ESD damage.
What do I connect with what? RB711 has no grounding pin.
hapi

the old RB711 has a shielded ethernet port (metallic case around ether1), this acts as the grounding pin. Shielded ethernet cable has a mettallic connector for this reason. When you simply plug in a shielded cable, it's already correctly connected. Nothing special has to be done in either case. Just use correct shielded cable + shielded metal connector, and both new and old RB711 will be connected to grounding automaticaly.
No answer to your question? How to write posts
 
User avatar
normis
MikroTik Support
MikroTik Support
Posts: 24608
Joined: Fri May 28, 2004 11:04 am
Location: Riga, Latvia

Re: RouterBoards and ESD compatibility

Fri Jul 29, 2011 1:41 pm

Good choice:
option-1.jpg
Not so good choice (but better than nothing):
option-2.jpg
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
No answer to your question? How to write posts
 
n21roadie
Forum Guru
Forum Guru
Posts: 1896
Joined: Fri Aug 07, 2009 10:36 pm
Location: Limerick,Ireland

Re: RouterBoards and ESD compatibility

Fri Jul 29, 2011 2:54 pm

What would happen if no earthing was used, how can esd discharge when there is direct route to earth, would the static build-up be just floating and unable to discharge, if a mast has a direct hit by lighting no lighting arrestor is going to save your equipment from damage, but I would mount a static discharge unit like those used at commercial transmission sites at the top of the mast and earth direct to ground, a floating earth may not be a bad thing when we are talking about secondaries of transformers in ac adapters which have isolation from ac mains supply and have low voltage dc and not lethal high ac voltages,
N21roadie,
Network 100% MT for Now?
 
User avatar
normis
MikroTik Support
MikroTik Support
Posts: 24608
Joined: Fri May 28, 2004 11:04 am
Location: Riga, Latvia

Re: RouterBoards and ESD compatibility

Thu Aug 04, 2011 10:46 am

We will not pass 7 mm2 cable to the unit. How could fasten 7 mm2 cable grounding connector?
to clarify this - 7mm2 is the perfect solution for larger installations, for SXT of course you need to use much smaller cable.
No answer to your question? How to write posts
 
User avatar
Raf
Member Candidate
Member Candidate
Posts: 171
Joined: Thu May 07, 2009 4:26 pm
Location: Olesnica, Poland
Contact:

Re: RouterBoards and ESD compatibility

Fri Aug 05, 2011 8:36 am

@Normis: It would be perfect if you could prepare (for all future boards indoor/outdoor) such info and put it (with pictures) to quick user guides in PDF. Such topics will come year by year I think.

ESD protection - the definitive guide ;)
Rafał Wójcik from AWB-NET
High Definition enthusiast
 
User avatar
normis
MikroTik Support
MikroTik Support
Posts: 24608
Joined: Fri May 28, 2004 11:04 am
Location: Riga, Latvia

Re: RouterBoards and ESD compatibility

Fri Aug 05, 2011 8:39 am

@Normis: It would be perfect if you could prepare (for all future boards indoor/outdoor) such info and put it (with pictures) to quick user guides in PDF. Such topics will come year by year I think.

ESD protection - the definitive guide ;)
This is a general topic for all wireless equipment. I would hope that people who install wireless equipment on a daily basis know this stuff. Same as people who buy routers, know what an IP address is.

I will update the wiki with this info.
No answer to your question? How to write posts
 
User avatar
Raf
Member Candidate
Member Candidate
Posts: 171
Joined: Thu May 07, 2009 4:26 pm
Location: Olesnica, Poland
Contact:

Re: RouterBoards and ESD compatibility

Fri Aug 05, 2011 8:44 am

Believe me - they don't know such things. Wiki will do also.
Rafał Wójcik from AWB-NET
High Definition enthusiast
 
User avatar
normis
MikroTik Support
MikroTik Support
Posts: 24608
Joined: Fri May 28, 2004 11:04 am
Location: Riga, Latvia

Re: RouterBoards and ESD compatibility

Fri Aug 05, 2011 8:59 am

No answer to your question? How to write posts
 
hapi
Member Candidate
Member Candidate
Topic Author
Posts: 224
Joined: Fri Mar 11, 2011 11:21 am
Location: Czech Republic

Re: RouterBoards and ESD compatibility

Sat Aug 06, 2011 3:10 pm

 
mihels
just joined
Posts: 4
Joined: Tue May 10, 2011 3:00 pm

Re: RouterBoards and ESD compatibility

Wed Aug 24, 2011 12:49 pm

Would grounding routerboard still be necessary if mast where antenna is installed is grounded? Wouldn't it create grounding loop?
 
User avatar
normis
MikroTik Support
MikroTik Support
Posts: 24608
Joined: Fri May 28, 2004 11:04 am
Location: Riga, Latvia

Re: RouterBoards and ESD compatibility

Wed Aug 24, 2011 12:55 pm

Would grounding routerboard still be necessary if mast where antenna is installed is grounded? Wouldn't it create grounding loop?
if you do it as in the pictures I posted, there will be no grounding loop

see note I wrote above:
The shielded cable should not be grounded also on the other end, the PoE doesn't need grounding pins, otherwise it will create a grounding loop, so cable shield connects only to the groudning pins at the board, and nowhere at the other end!
No answer to your question? How to write posts
 
mihels
just joined
Posts: 4
Joined: Tue May 10, 2011 3:00 pm

Re: RouterBoards and ESD compatibility

Wed Aug 24, 2011 1:02 pm

see note I wrote above:
The shielded cable should not be grounded also on the other end, the PoE doesn't need grounding pins, otherwise it will create a grounding loop, so cable shield connects only to the groudning pins at the board, and nowhere at the other end!
Then, if I understand correctly, in case if antenna mast is grounded, I don't need to ground MT device in any other way, only use ground shielded FTP cable at the routerboard end? Separate grounding wire to the mounting point is not necessary?
 
User avatar
normis
MikroTik Support
MikroTik Support
Posts: 24608
Joined: Fri May 28, 2004 11:04 am
Location: Riga, Latvia

Re: RouterBoards and ESD compatibility

Wed Aug 24, 2011 1:05 pm

No, you do need to ground it in any case. See first image: http://forum.mikrotik.com/viewtopic.php ... 01#p274001

you can see that it's connected to the tower grounding installation.
No answer to your question? How to write posts
 
mihels
just joined
Posts: 4
Joined: Tue May 10, 2011 3:00 pm

Re: RouterBoards and ESD compatibility

Wed Aug 24, 2011 1:15 pm

No, you do need to ground it in any case. See first image: http://forum.mikrotik.com/viewtopic.php ... 01#p274001

you can see that it's connected to the tower grounding installation.
In that image, you have routerboard grounded to the mast. I'm talking about only antenna being grounded and routerboard in plastic case without any separate grounding whatsoever, would that be sufficient? Can pigtail from routerboard's wireless NIC connected to grounded antenna serve as grounding to the routerboard?

routerboard --> antenna ==> mast ==> ground

Where "-->" is pigtail and "==>" is standard grounding wire.
 
nxl
just joined
Posts: 20
Joined: Thu Jul 25, 2013 10:24 am

Re: RouterBoards and ESD compatibility

Thu Jul 25, 2013 10:32 am

Hi,

Can a SXT device affected by a nearby hit be repaired?
I have two devices that continue to work but occasionally the ethernet port locks up, showing 10 Mbps-half-or-full-duplex and I have to disable/enable it several times and then it works for another 5-6 days.

Thanks!

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 22 guests