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Link Hardware suggestion

Posted: Wed May 02, 2012 10:17 pm
by rooin
I'm looking to complete the link shown in the image. It's planned to be a Bridged link from my home to my Mothers to provide her internet access.
I'm looking for hardware suggestions that will penetrate the trees. Unfortunately I don't have the means to get over the top of them.

http://www.ry-cor.com/p2p/point2point.jpg (image)

Both locations have rooftop that is approx same elevation, but it's no higher than any of the other homes/rooftops in the area.
Any suggestions would be appreciated.

Re: Link Hardware suggestion

Posted: Thu May 03, 2012 12:08 am
by jandafields
I'm looking to complete the link shown in the image. It's planned to be a Bridged link from my home to my Mothers to provide her internet access.
I'm looking for hardware suggestions that will penetrate the trees. Unfortunately I don't have the means to get over the top of them.

http://www.ry-cor.com/p2p/point2point.jpg (image)

Both locations have rooftop that is approx same elevation, but it's no higher than any of the other homes/rooftops in the area.
Any suggestions would be appreciated.
That's a lot of trees to go through. Trees KILL wireless signal. The lower the frequency, the further it will go through them. So, 900MHz will go through the trees further than 2.4GHz, and 2.4GHz further than 5GHz.

But, you are only going about 5 or 6 blocks away... that is pretty short distance.

You can try this, with no guarantee that it will work:

Get some highly directional antennas with as narrow of a beam as possible, and get as high of a db antenna and radio as you can (staying within the legal power range of course). The narrow beam will be harder to align, especially without line of sight, but that is your best bet.

Don't use 5GHz. Use 2.4GHz, (or 900MHz if you can find any).

Get the antennas up as high as you can.

Re: Link Hardware suggestion

Posted: Thu May 03, 2012 4:55 am
by ohara
You can try experiment with antenna degree. Face both panels 15 degrees into the sky at medium transmit power hoping that fresnel zone will bottom above trees. Give space for your antennas, install them as far away from trees at both of your sites.

You could also consider using a wireless bridge, for example in the corner of 10 Ave. and 8 St. because there is less trees along both streets.

Re: Link Hardware suggestion

Posted: Thu May 03, 2012 5:10 am
by jandafields
You can try experiment with antenna degree. Face both panels 15 degrees into the sky at medium transmit power hoping that fresnel zone will bottom above trees. Give space for your antennas, install them as far away from trees at both of your sites.

You could also consider using a wireless bridge, for example in the corner of 10 Ave. and 8 St. because there is less trees along both streets.
10th and 8th ???? What's he gonna do, mount it on top of the stoplights and tap into the power lines?!? LOL!
Chances of him having access to any buildings there are pretty slim.

Re: Link Hardware suggestion

Posted: Thu May 03, 2012 6:28 am
by rooin
Yeah, this is just a local Residential neighborhood.
I would just pay to get internet service into my mothers home, but I can't afford that in the long run.
She can't afford internet with recently being forced to stop working, so this is my only shot.

I was thinking 900mhz would be required. I have a feeling that Winter would not be as bad when the tree's are bare. (Minnesota)
But I figure if I can get something to work in the Summer, I should be golden any other time of the year.

Is it really a option to beam upward an essentially try an "cross" their signals over the tree line? I didn't think such a thing was possible.
I'm eyeing some ubiquity equipment, like a Nano M900 or something. Thats 900mhz w/ 2x2 MIMO an 8db directional antenna.
Suppse the only way to align such a narrow band is to just wiggle the antenna's back n forth to try and achieve the best signal possible. Sounds like a 2 person job as well.

Just ~4 blocks... I can make 4 blocks!

Re: Link Hardware suggestion

Posted: Thu May 03, 2012 4:25 pm
by jandafields
Yeah, this is just a local Residential neighborhood.
I would just pay to get internet service into my mothers home, but I can't afford that in the long run.
She can't afford internet with recently being forced to stop working, so this is my only shot.

I was thinking 900mhz would be required. I have a feeling that Winter would not be as bad when the tree's are bare. (Minnesota)
But I figure if I can get something to work in the Summer, I should be golden any other time of the year.

Is it really a option to beam upward an essentially try an "cross" their signals over the tree line? I didn't think such a thing was possible.
I'm eyeing some ubiquity equipment, like a Nano M900 or something. Thats 900mhz w/ 2x2 MIMO an 8db directional antenna.
Suppse the only way to align such a narrow band is to just wiggle the antenna's back n forth to try and achieve the best signal possible. Sounds like a 2 person job as well.

Just ~4 blocks... I can make 4 blocks!
Yup, if you can find the 900 stuff, use it. As for pointing each antenna up... that sounds crazy to me. It's not like gravity is going to pull the signal back down on the other side like a rainbow. I think if you pointed them up, they just wouldn't be aligned very well and it would make it worse.

For aligning the antennas, it's definately a 2 person job unless you want to drive back and forth all day. Many devices have an "alignment" mode where they beep or something to indicate how much signal they are receiving... so you can keep moving both antennas until they each show the greatest signal.

If 2.4GHz would work through the trees, the RB751's are super affordable, you would just need an antenna. But, like you said, you might want to go with 900's to have the best chance.

Re: Link Hardware suggestion

Posted: Thu May 03, 2012 4:34 pm
by gcs
900 should work. I would use the Xagyl XC900M which is a great 900 card. It cuts down the noise floor and is powerfull. I am replacing my XR9 cards with them.

Re: Link Hardware suggestion

Posted: Thu May 03, 2012 5:21 pm
by jandafields
900 should work. I would use the Xagyl XC900M which is a great 900 card. It cuts down the noise floor and is powerfull. I am replacing my XR9 cards with them.
Looks like xagyl is also a bit less expensive...

Still though... spending $600+ on this entire setup just because you can't afford internet...

($100 routerboard, $125 radio, $75 misc [antenna, cabling, shipping, taxes] ) * 2 = $600

$600 will pay for almost 2 years of Cable internet.... depending on where you live.

IF the 2.4GHz would work, then:
($60 RB751, $75 misc [antenna, cabling, shipping, taxes]) * 2 = $270

You are paying a LOT LOT more (more than double) for 900 versus 2.4

Re: Link Hardware suggestion

Posted: Thu May 03, 2012 5:46 pm
by Hotz1
Is it really a option to beam upward an essentially try an "cross" their signals over the tree line? I didn't think such a thing was possible...
... that sounds crazy to me. It's not like gravity is going to pull the signal back down on the other side like a rainbow. I think if you pointed them up, they just wouldn't be aligned very well and it would make it worse...
Actually it makes sense, not because the beams "bend" but because aiming them slightly high reduces interference. The power received at the far end will be reduced because it is toward the outside of the Fresnel zone, but it also won't be loaded with as much noise from trying to force the full power of the antenna directly through the obstructions.

We do the same thing over water. Aiming the antennas slightly high might reduce direct signal strength, but it also reduces reflections off the water that raise the noise floor--sometimes enough to raise the s:n ratio. Conditions vary on a case-by-case basis, so there is a fair amount of trial and error involved.

Re: Link Hardware suggestion

Posted: Fri May 04, 2012 2:15 am
by rooin
900 should work. I would use the Xagyl XC900M which is a great 900 card. It cuts down the noise floor and is powerfull. I am replacing my XR9 cards with them.
Looks like xagyl is also a bit less expensive...

Still though... spending $600+ on this entire setup just because you can't afford internet...

($100 routerboard, $125 radio, $75 misc [antenna, cabling, shipping, taxes] ) * 2 = $600

$600 will pay for almost 2 years of Cable internet.... depending on where you live.

IF the 2.4GHz would work, then:
($60 RB751, $75 misc [antenna, cabling, shipping, taxes]) * 2 = $270

You are paying a LOT LOT more (more than double) for 900 versus 2.4

Well the M900s are a all in one unit, for approx $125/ea. So roughly $250 + Shipping Isn't so bad.
8 dBi ant @ 28 dBm power. Really sounds appealing now that you throw the above numbers out.
In my area reliable high-speed actually starts around $40 a month an just goes up from there.
I'll take these ideas and see what I come up with.

Anyone know the legal transmit power limits? Is that a state to state variable thing or that a nationwide FCC controlled number?

Re: Link Hardware suggestion

Posted: Fri May 04, 2012 3:20 am
by jandafields
I don't know the legalities, but start by reading through this:
http://www.michwave.com/bbnetwork/faq/fcc.htm