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sterling
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WAP 60G 360 Config and Operation

Tue Oct 29, 2019 5:19 am

Anyone else using the WAP 60G AP's in a 360 degree configuration, area wide?

These radios are lacking a LOT of features to make this work like they 'should'.

We have POP sites with six 60 degree AP's in 360 config, using back to back channels.

It works fairly well, though I'm sure it's stepping all over itself using just three channels at the AP, all talking on top of each other.

My biggest problem right now is that at such near distances, using the same SSID, client CPE WAP/LHG units are not talking to their 'optimal' facing AP.
And even rebooting them doesn't seem to really help all that much all the time.

Has anyone come up with a script or something run on a schedule, that would somehow force the CPE to search out the best signal AP and connect to it?
Or even statically, NOT by SSID, but some preferred MAC address or some other means, force it onto the best AP?
 
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Re: WAP 60G 360 Config and Operation

Tue Oct 29, 2019 3:42 pm

You can use the "area" value at the AP side and then match that area using the connect-list "area-prefix" value on the Station Side...

This way you actually select to what Access Point each client will connect to...
 
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Re: WAP 60G 360 Config and Operation

Wed Oct 30, 2019 10:02 pm

You can use the "area" value at the AP side and then match that area using the connect-list "area-prefix" value on the Station Side...

This way you actually select to what Access Point each client will connect to...
I don't think that functionality is available on the 60 GHz products.

As for using the same SSID; more recent firmwares (as of 6.45.1) should support this better ("w60g - prefer AP with strongest signal when multiple APs with same SSID present")
However, I would advise using unique SSIDs as you have much better control of your network this way. Also, these radios bleed outside their channels like crazy; the more physical separation you can add between the APs, the better.
 
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Re: WAP 60G 360 Config and Operation

Wed Oct 30, 2019 11:42 pm

It is not a functionality of a specific product... It is a feature of the RouterOS in the Wireless facility...
I don't see why it won't work if its either 2.4GHz, 5GHz or 60 GHz...
 
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Re: WAP 60G 360 Config and Operation

Thu Oct 31, 2019 12:08 am

It is not a functionality of a specific product... It is a feature of the RouterOS in the Wireless facility...
I don't see why it won't work if its either 2.4GHz, 5GHz or 60 GHz...
60GHz has a separate wireless tab called "W60G", it is not the same "Wireless" tab as all other frequencies. The options are completely different.
 
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Re: WAP 60G 360 Config and Operation

Thu Oct 31, 2019 12:33 am

It is not a functionality of a specific product... It is a feature of the RouterOS in the Wireless facility...
I don't see why it won't work if its either 2.4GHz, 5GHz or 60 GHz...
It isn't there because W60G doesn't come under/with the typical wireless settings, it's a separate menu structure, with no Area options that I can find.
 
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Re: WAP 60G 360 Config and Operation

Thu Oct 31, 2019 12:38 am

Has anyone tried some sort of shielding for these AP's yet?

Seems like with 60GHz it would be more effectively shielded given the beam width?

Like maybe some 360 degree mount system with metal 'cove' for each AP at the 60 degree intervals so there is less bleed over.

I do notice that at these close ranges some CPE's will easily connect to a 'neighbor' 60 degree AP/field, or even one behind it, or 120 degrees off it's 'preferred' AP.

I wrote a short script to disable and then re-enable the client CPE wireless interface so I can 'bounce' the wireless and have it try a different AP on re-enable.
That does seem to work rather well, lots faster than remotely power cycling the entire CPE, which at times doesn't even budge it from the 'wrong' AP.

I set some 'problematic' ones up on a schedule to do this every morning at 4am to help it 'stick' to the proper AP.
 
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Re: WAP 60G 360 Config and Operation

Thu Oct 31, 2019 12:44 am

Right, i forgot that...
 
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Re: WAP 60G 360 Config and Operation

Thu Oct 31, 2019 1:10 am

Has anyone tried some sort of shielding for these AP's yet?

Seems like with 60GHz it would be more effectively shielded given the beam width?
I wonder if this might work?

https://www.eurodk.com/en/products/mikr ... ise-shield
 
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Re: WAP 60G 360 Config and Operation

Thu Oct 31, 2019 1:18 am

Has anyone tried some sort of shielding for these AP's yet?

Seems like with 60GHz it would be more effectively shielded given the beam width?
I wonder if this might work?

https://www.eurodk.com/en/products/mikr ... ise-shield
Hmm, that looks tempting. I think I'll order six of those for one of my 360 sites and see what happens.
I like that they have down-tilt capability too, since a few sectors need to have adjustment at some of my sites.
 
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Re: WAP 60G 360 Config and Operation

Wed Apr 01, 2020 11:01 pm

Ok, so I've something CRAZY and set up these two 360 degree sites with WAP 60GAP's and those shields.
Take a look at my picture.

So the shields did help with two things. They helped with mounting to a J Arm and allowing uptilt or downtilt as necessary for area focus.
They also appear to help a bit with isolation such that the clients tend to 'stick' better and register better/first to their appropriate AP geographically.

As of right now these two sites and clients are running latest test at v6.47beta49 which I think was supposed to help with 'sticking' on an AP and not flapping between them.
All AP's are on the same SSID. I'm sort of re-using some channels back to back.

Overall it's pretty solid so far, but 'fringe' CPE's, and even some in the 'middle' of the AP sector are selecting AP's adjacent to them and won't 'move' to their correct AP.
I've got a support/feature request in to Mikrotik right now to have them implement a "preferred MAC AP" for those of us using area wide same SSID.
I really really don't think that would be a hard feature to ask for, should be rather simple in code really to have it prefer an AP with a MAC address unless it absolutely cannot see or connect to it, then fall back to just SSID.

I do get the benifit in this scenario of allowing the CPE's to connect to adjacent AP's and most of them do when the main/preferred/center AP goes offline (like for upgrades).
I created a simple script action to disable the wireless, wait 10 seconds and re-enable the wireless to attemp the CPE to reconnect to a better AP. Seems to work about half the time.
So there is still a lot of work to do on/in the software I think to get these radios to pick an optimal AP if using shared SSID area wide.

I also asked them if there was some possible way to set one of the AP's as a 'timing master' network wise so all AP's on the same switch could sync up and broadcast and receive at same timing windows. Not sure if that's even possible, likely a pipe dream for this hardware, but would probably help a lot in this 360 degree scenario.

The test package I'm running right now (mentioned above) does seem to allow disconnects a lot more often, customers seeing more brief outages and Dude showing them changing internal sectors more often, therefore changing signal and modulation more often than on Stable.

I might have to roll back to Stable and live there, but would really like them to change and get things a bit better in the next release first.

What do you all think?
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Re: WAP 60G 360 Config and Operation

Wed Apr 01, 2020 11:55 pm

Looks nice.. Good Job...
How long did it take you to complete the job and how many enginneers where involved?
I've got a support/feature request in to Mikrotik right now to have them implement a "preferred MAC AP" for those of us using area wide same SSID.
Why dont you make use of the connect list and tell your AP where to connect ?
 
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Re: WAP 60G 360 Config and Operation

Thu Apr 02, 2020 1:10 am

It's grown over the past few months bit by bit, so not all at once.

Not sure what you mean by connect list for the AP.

W60G interface doesn't have a connect list like the other wireless interfaces, correct?
 
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Re: WAP 60G 360 Config and Operation

Thu Apr 02, 2020 11:01 am

Yes, you are probably right, i guess it cant use the connect-list feature...\

And you did all the setup by your own ?
 
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Re: WAP 60G 360 Config and Operation

Mon Apr 13, 2020 10:09 pm

Yes, I designed the setup on my own, but I have a crew of techs and engineers that have helped with implementation in the field.

I've sent support files from AP's and CPE's to Mikrotik and this image and description of what I'm doing.

But so far nothing in response.

I haven't heard if they are going to implement my (simple) feature request of having a field called "Preferred AP" by MAC address(s).
That I think would greatly help the marginal CPE's flapping between AP's as they are doing now.
 
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Re: WAP 60G 360 Config and Operation

Tue Apr 14, 2020 12:28 am

Are they upgraded to latest ROS?
 
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Re: WAP 60G 360 Config and Operation

Tue Apr 14, 2020 12:48 am

If you read the post from the top you will see I'm on all beta firmware.
 
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Re: WAP 60G 360 Config and Operation

Thu Apr 16, 2020 12:43 am

@sterling

What are your thoughts specifically on the anti-noise shields (https://www.eurodk.com/en/products/mikr ... ise-shield)

Did you see any other benefit besides having your SUs be more "sticky" to a particular AP. I'm running a 360 degree setup with 6 APs as well, and wondering if I should go this route with the anti-noise shields.

Thanks,

Jordan
 
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Re: WAP 60G 360 Config and Operation

Thu Apr 16, 2020 3:16 am

I think the shields are worth it.

They helped with a bit of isolation between stations, kept clients more locked on to their respective AP's.
They also allowed us to add some up or down tilt to focus in towards lower or higher areas. Mounting is just better with them.
 
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Re: WAP 60G 360 Config and Operation

Sat Apr 18, 2020 12:18 am

I think the shields are worth it.

They helped with a bit of isolation between stations, kept clients more locked on to their respective AP's.
They also allowed us to add some up or down tilt to focus in towards lower or higher areas. Mounting is just better with them.
i have a network with ~300 wAP60G in it. tightly packed. on each pole there's 360 degree coverage to adjacent poles and customers.
i was asking for 'connect-list/access-list' type controls for 60GHz since 2019 march, but this feature did not got into routerOS. also, max power and modulation control would be essential too.
other than that the network is doing fine, i was to talk about this at the EU MUM... but covid-19 happened. i hope the show will go on after the lockdown/curfew stuff is over
#TR0359
 
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Re: WAP 60G 360 Config and Operation

Sat Apr 18, 2020 1:36 am

That's good to hear.

What package version are you on?

That last beta was total crap for us. Had to roll back. Now most is peaceful again.
 
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Re: WAP 60G 360 Config and Operation

Fri May 07, 2021 2:38 am

I wrote a short script to disable and then re-enable the client CPE wireless interface so I can 'bounce' the wireless and have it try a different AP on re-enable.
That does seem to work rather well, lots faster than remotely power cycling the entire CPE, which at times doesn't even budge it from the 'wrong' AP.
I set some 'problematic' ones up on a schedule to do this every morning at 4am to help it 'stick' to the proper AP.
Hi!
It is interesting to read your experience and practical performance, it is amazing.
Could you share this script here?
In the year since the last comment, have there been any new experiences and comments regarding 360 Co-location?
Have you had the experience and the solution when the CPE can't quickly re-connect to the same AP or other AP or the AP side it is rejected for up to half an hour (log: authentification failed).
 
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Re: WAP 60G 360 Config and Operation

Sat May 08, 2021 12:19 am

Well, yeah, a lot has happened in a year with this.

We upgraded to 6.48.2 recently (last month) and that has been pretty stable.
It also opened up the ability to use channel 66000, but on the clients you have to add it to the channel scan for it to pick up.
That does help a bit with another higher channel, though not sure if all radios are fully capable or not, still more testing needed.

We now have areas with up to 9 AP's with the third party shields co-located on a couple of poles.
We get away with that by careful separation of directions and channels, and not loading more than 4 clients per AP for now.

And we opened up more fiber fed locations in the area (four more in this particular high density one) with 4011's feeding PowerBox pro's on the roof on port 10 POE Out using high voltage 54v 1.5A power supplies. And then putting up to 4 more AP's on those to help diversify the client load on AP's, again to keep them below 4 clients an AP and allow room for growth.

We are doing 250Mbps and 500Mbps symetrical plans still on those.

Though in new areas we are reserving the Mikrotik now for only 500Mbps rate plans, and using UI LTU for 100 and 250Mbps asymmetrical delivery/plans.

We are also now using Cambium Terragraph and expanding on that 60GHz system.
It's a whole new bad of tricks, and speeds are sometimes all over the place, but it's for sure a MUCH more stable and scalable system already, using timing and GPS on the same 1-4 channels.
But they can also go out 700m up to nearly 8Gbps FDX with future channel bonding they say. But we'll see about that.
So far I haven't been able to test above GigE speeds on the V3000 clients...
 
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Re: WAP 60G 360 Config and Operation

Sat May 08, 2021 11:41 am

Well, yeah, a lot has happened in a year with this.

We upgraded to 6.48.2 recently (last month) and that has been pretty stable.
It also opened up the ability to use channel 66000, but on the clients you have to add it to the channel scan for it to pick up.
That does help a bit with another higher channel, though not sure if all radios are fully capable or not, still more testing needed.

We now have areas with up to 9 AP's with the third party shields co-located on a couple of poles.
We get away with that by careful separation of directions and channels, and not loading more than 4 clients per AP for now.

And we opened up more fiber fed locations in the area (four more in this particular high density one) with 4011's feeding PowerBox pro's on the roof on port 10 POE Out using high voltage 54v 1.5A power supplies. And then putting up to 4 more AP's on those to help diversify the client load on AP's, again to keep them below 4 clients an AP and allow room for growth.

We are doing 250Mbps and 500Mbps symetrical plans still on those.

Though in new areas we are reserving the Mikrotik now for only 500Mbps rate plans, and using UI LTU for 100 and 250Mbps asymmetrical delivery/plans.

We are also now using Cambium Terragraph and expanding on that 60GHz system.
It's a whole new bad of tricks, and speeds are sometimes all over the place, but it's for sure a MUCH more stable and scalable system already, using timing and GPS on the same 1-4 channels.
But they can also go out 700m up to nearly 8Gbps FDX with future channel bonding they say. But we'll see about that.
So far I haven't been able to test above GigE speeds on the V3000 clients...
It looks like you didn't want to answer the other few questions, but it's nice to hear about last year's experience.
For 6.48.2 I also haven't noticed any problems (thanks for the feedback).
You mentioned 66000. My CPE is best to go with 60 instead of 62/64/66 and I have no explanation for that.
Your 4 customers per AP - do you think this way you get a bakcup for the other 4 or because the PHY rate is better if there are only 4 customers?
Why choose a high voltage PSU?
Why did you choose UI LTU over ePMP?
Congratulations to Cambium Terragraph, I am also looking to the side, but if on wAP you hold 4 cpe, how much do you plan to hold on Cambium?

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