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marcin21
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What is wrong with nv2?

Tue Sep 15, 2015 10:13 pm

it's not that I complain on wireless capabilities of mikrotik gear. It's kind of observation I made. About year ago after I got dissapointed by 802.11ac support from mikrotik I decided to use other producer equipment. The other one that gave me so much enjoyment to work with. But lately I was forced to upgrade some older links, and gave mikrotik one shot more.
Dynadish 802.11ac met my expectations. I was very happy to see nicely working ptp on new software 6.30.4. after few weeks I decided to upgrade other AP, mostly omnitiks. and here we are, what is wrong with.... multipoint mode?? It's a disaster! after day or two it eventually stops passing traffic to clients. neither auto nor 2ms mode helped. Omnitik AP, 12 apc connected, subscribers up to 16mbps, wireless data rate 39-78-90 some with dual polarization even 180mbps.
on the client side speedtest.net shows...3mbps and significant loss of packets. jitter is over reasonable range.
channel under spectral scan is totally clear.
And what, I've learned from mikrotik, dont upgrade if You must'nt, so when I was upgrading whole network earlier with new verystableoptimized reouter version I ommited some of omnitiks with 5.14 routeros due to very very long link uptime and very decent throughput. So... I downgraded problematic omnitik to 5.14 firmware issued may 2012, so 3 years old.

Results speed at client 16mbps, total speeed of AP in multipoint mode up to 30 mbps, ping avg 6 ms

3 years back router os had better wireless multipoint nv2 implementation ? where are You heading?
 
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Wed Sep 16, 2015 8:39 am

Very good question.
 
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bajodel
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Re:

Wed Sep 16, 2015 11:11 am

Very good question.
indeed! I wonder why MT have not deeply debugged a similar scenario. This could lead to a solution ..maybe
 
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Re: What is wrong with nv2?

Wed Sep 16, 2015 4:26 pm

Interesting, I dont have any issues with PTMP with NV2.. but staying away from OmniTik - recently replaced it with UBNT 13dB omni antenna and 711GA, so far no issue and better than OmniTik. It was 3 years old and I am guessing that the antennas or something else started failing... after replacement, all is fine.
The other NV2 PTMP AP I have is based also on UBNT Omni but 912UAG, with 14 MIMO clients (mostly SXTs) I can get up to 50Mb without any issue, selling 30Mb plans.

Staying on 6.19 and 6.21..

So maybe your problem is the OmniTik. Also stay away from combination of MIMO and SISO stations on a MIMO AP
 
marcin21
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Re: What is wrong with nv2?

Thu Sep 17, 2015 1:20 am

I'm happy that You've found solution to the problems, it may be related to poor rf parameters of omnitik in comparison to ubiquiti product. Unfortunately 6.19 or 6.21 firmware if works better than 6.30 then this may mean that newer routeros releases are getting worse each time. My example was to get clear picture of software problem. ofcourse better antenna will do much, but if simply staying on 5.14 solves the problem then something looks not ok, ok?
 
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Re: What is wrong with nv2?

Thu Sep 17, 2015 12:58 pm

New releases bring stability in exchange for losing random bursts of speed. Nv2 is much more stable and reliable now. It is possible that you have some specific conditions where you see lower speed "on the surface" but your link is more reliable than before and has less errors and disconnections.
No answer to your question? How to write posts
 
marcin21
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Re: What is wrong with nv2?

Thu Sep 17, 2015 3:14 pm

yes. pretty nothing new to hear from You Mr.Normis. frankly speaking I haven't expected anything else. as usual.
Ok I stick with older routeros and wait another year maybe some mikrotik equipment will stand. As for now
reverting to 3 years old routeros gives me 4xtimes faster result at client and stable jitter.
and stability You say, after small checkup in my network AP with 5.18 have uptime 262days, apc 2 weeks uninterrupted link. so what was You talking about stability ??

one more thing, could I use 6.30.4 routeros with 5.18 wireless package?
 
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Re: What is wrong with nv2?

Thu Sep 17, 2015 3:17 pm

I can only say what is fact. Developers are not making changes for fun and games. They do actual work and work very hard. I know what they work on, so I can give you honest answer.
No answer to your question? How to write posts
 
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Re: What is wrong with nv2?

Thu Sep 17, 2015 5:46 pm

I can only say what is fact. Developers are not making changes for fun and games. They do actual work and work very hard. I know what they work on, so I can give you honest answer.
have you ever tried the NV2 protocol in a real environment?
What results you get?

I can't get more than 30Mbps aggregate.

What version of RouterOS (and what wireless package) has this improvments?
 
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Re: What is wrong with nv2?

Thu Sep 17, 2015 5:58 pm

On the other post i make a lot of test last 2 week and the only thing i can point on is latency and tcp window scaling...
im not a specialist and maybe im wrong but all my test point to this. check the other post for my test.

Plz MKT i know you work hard and its very difficult to please everybody(impossible) is the war between throughput and latency...(People like me love latency but the normal client just see throughput...)

http://forum.mikrotik.com/viewtopic.php ... 92#p500092
 
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Re: What is wrong with nv2?

Sun Sep 20, 2015 1:08 am

We've been offering similar complaints to Mikrotik (face to face at MUM in NZ as well); and will STILL have an unresolved ticket that must be coming up 6 months old re: wireless performance and 4xx series board having issues with NV2 / Nstreme in 6.2x.x and we just get ye old "try the latest version" without any explanation and which STILL yields no improvement.

We have seen some improvement and good results out of 9xx series APs/CPE; but that doesn't really help us when we have several thousand 4 and 7 series boards out there that are wirelessly unstable on the latest versions of ROS (above 6.20); and Mikrotik appear to be making zero effort to work with us to resolve.

Long long long story short; we've been looking at switching to Cambium - even their ePMP equipment, at the very least does exactly what it says it will; and more importantly their support people are happy to be responsive and helpful.

FWIW its Ticket#2015021966000088

Its a shame; we love(d) mikrotik but it appears other vendors are now catching up / overtaking and even at Mikrotiks price point.
 
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Re: What is wrong with nv2?

Thu Sep 24, 2015 10:26 pm

I have submitted a few tickets with the problems of NV2. The most recent was replied with "We are aware of the problems but we are fixing 802.11 first" I actually moved all of my point to point ac links to 802.11 (Can you even imagine it) and i was surprised to see that my throughput on tcp traffic doubled. My packet loss stopped and I no longer saw the incremental speed decrease i was seeing over multiple nv2 hops. Now my Multipoint Network is still NV2. It is stable enough to handle VOIP and decent Internet however. My customers that have VPN's are constantly complaining that they keep dropping the VPN connection. I am actually thinking of trying out 802.11 for multipoint as well (I know I know). NV2 is a great IDEA but it is a long way from a good working solution. I am also very sure that the Mikrotik Programers are working very hard. HOWEVER, I would make this suggestion. Instead of constantly adding new features. Stabilize what you have already released so it is usable by the people that are buying it for those advertised uses. Two philosophies I find are being more and more dismissed.

1. KISS it (Keep is simple stupid) - the more you Gum it up. the easier it is to break
2. Jack of all trades, Master of none. - You can't be all things to everyone but you can be the absolute best at a few things.

If i was Mikrotik I would ask my self these questions.
1. Is the base that made my company successful being served?
answer: No, Other companies has surpassed your stability and met your price point.

2. How do we Maintain our edge?
answer : Look at you company focus. and possibly split your development track of ROS into two branches.
1. Consumer/SOHO/wifi branch - Focusing on new features and individual user experience
2. Carrier Branch - Focusing on Carrier related technologies. I.E. Fixing NV2 or making a better system. Fixing multi-core utilization with CCR.

It is a nice idea that one software will do it all. But the reality is. Consumer and SOHO operations require very different solutions then Carrier (wisp, ISP, etc.) operations do.

Please don't let ubiquity make Mikrotik absolute. I have allot of money in my Mikrotik network. (But I am starting to lose customers because of problems that are NEVER addressed in NV2).

Sorry so long winded.
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Re: What is wrong with nv2?

Fri Sep 25, 2015 12:12 am

I have submitted a few tickets with the problems of NV2. The most recent was replied with "We are aware of the problems but we are fixing 802.11 first" I actually moved all of my point to point ac links to 802.11 (Can you even imagine it) and i was surprised to see that my throughput on tcp traffic doubled. My packet loss stopped and I no longer saw the incremental speed decrease i was seeing over multiple nv2 hops. Now my Multipoint Network is still NV2. It is stable enough to handle VOIP and decent Internet however. My customers that have VPN's are constantly complaining that they keep dropping the VPN connection. I am actually thinking of trying out 802.11 for multipoint as well (I know I know). NV2 is a great IDEA but it is a long way from a good working solution. I am also very sure that the Mikrotik Programers are working very hard. HOWEVER, I would make this suggestion. Instead of constantly adding new features. Stabilize what you have already released so it is usable by the people that are buying it for those advertised uses. Two philosophies I find are being more and more dismissed.

1. KISS it (Keep is simple stupid) - the more you Gum it up. the easier it is to break
2. Jack of all trades, Master of none. - You can't be all things to everyone but you can be the absolute best at a few things.

If i was Mikrotik I would ask my self these questions.
1. Is the base that made my company successful being served?
answer: No, Other companies has surpassed your stability and met your price point.

2. How do we Maintain our edge?
answer : Look at you company focus. and possibly split your development track of ROS into two branches.as
1. Consumer/SOHO/wifi branch - Focusing on new features and individual user experience
2. Carrier Branch - Focusing on Carrier related technologies. I.E. Fixing NV2 or making a better system. Fixing multi-core utilization with CCR.

It is a nice idea that one software will do it all. But the reality is. Consumer and SOHO operations require very different solutions then Carrier (wisp, ISP, etc.) operations do.

Please don't let ubiquity make Mikrotik absolute. I have allot of money in my Mikrotik network. (But I am starting to lose customers because of problems that are NEVER addressed in NV2).

Sorry so long winded.
Overall NV2 is very stable and yes its far from perfect, I have found NV2 to be more stable in noisy environments than 802.11, with Mikrotik as everything is done in software, CPU is king as faster CPU speed gives better performance?
I remove any packages not required and in a lot of cases default setting in wireless does not give me the best performance, so I adjust a lot of settings, in a nutshell you have to tweak like hell to get the best from Mikrotik and
in reality problems encountered by us can only be solved by us and some are under illusion that all issues can be solved by just getting better software, I think there should be special builds for different components ,
like PTP, AP, Routers, switches, etc as "One size does fit everyone perfectly"
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Re: What is wrong with nv2?

Fri Sep 25, 2015 12:29 am

Overall NV2 is very stable and yes its far from perfect, I have found NV2 to be more stable in noisy environments than 802.11, with Mikrotik as everything is done in software, CPU is king as faster CPU speed gives better performance?
I remove any packages not required and in a lot of cases default setting in wireless does not give me the best performance, so I adjust a lot of settings, in a nutshell you have to tweak like hell to get the best from Mikrotik and
in reality problems encountered by us can only be solved by us and some are under illusion that all issues can be solved by just getting better software, I think there should be special builds for different components ,
like PTP, AP, Routers, switches, etc as "One size does fit everyone perfectly"

I do agree that tweaking is needed to get the most out of Mikrotik. I can not disagree more on a one size fits all perfectly. What you are telling me is a ISP with 2000 users should operated the same as a local wifi network. That is juvenile at best and as a forum guru i am highly disappointed in your reply. That is like saying that a linksys router works just as well as an enterprise cisco router. IT is simply untrue. In addition you don't see linksys (when owned by cisco) Run the SAME os as their enterprise routers.

The lack of understanding is starting to become obscene. When customers come to this forum with recommendations or requests. It is done as a loyal customer base trying to communicate with the company they do business with and Spend money on. The fact that all you ever get back is in just tweak it better is mind boggling. So Mr. n21Roadie Tell me how do you tweak NV2 to stop inherent packet loss and low TCP throughput when all you can adjust is frame size. Please put some examples and facts behind your statements. I have 3 different trouble tickets with full test results and configs on each system to Mikrotik with the reply that THEY KNOW THERE IS A PROBLEM. They just refuse to fix it.
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ste
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Re: What is wrong with nv2?

Fri Sep 25, 2015 6:30 am

We've been offering similar complaints to Mikrotik (face to face at MUM in NZ as well); and will STILL have an unresolved ticket that must be coming up 6 months old re: wireless performance and 4xx series board having issues with NV2 / Nstreme in 6.2x.x and we just get ye old "try the latest version" without any explanation and which STILL yields no improvement.

We have seen some improvement and good results out of 9xx series APs/CPE; but that doesn't really help us when we have several thousand 4 and 7 series boards out there that are wirelessly unstable on the latest versions of ROS (above 6.20); and Mikrotik appear to be making zero effort to work with us to resolve.

Long long long story short; we've been looking at switching to Cambium - even their ePMP equipment, at the very least does exactly what it says it will; and more importantly their support people are happy to be responsive and helpful.

FWIW its Ticket#2015021966000088

Its a shame; we love(d) mikrotik but it appears other vendors are now catching up / overtaking and even at Mikrotiks price point.
I talked to them at Prague. I guess their focus is no longer with wireless for wisps. We keep MT for routing but will look elsewhere for wireless.
 
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Re: What is wrong with nv2?

Fri Sep 25, 2015 10:48 pm



I do agree that tweaking is needed to get the most out of Mikrotik. I can not disagree more on a one size fits all perfectly. What you are telling me is a ISP with 2000 users should operated the same as a local wifi network. That is juvenile at best and as a forum guru i am highly disappointed in your reply. That is like saying that a linksys router works just as well as an enterprise cisco router. IT is simply untrue. In addition you don't see linksys (when owned by cisco) Run the SAME os as their enterprise routers.

The lack of understanding is starting to become obscene. When customers come to this forum with recommendations or requests. It is done as a loyal customer base trying to communicate with the company they do business with and Spend money on. The fact that all you ever get back is in just tweak it better is mind boggling. So Mr. n21Roadie Tell me how do you tweak NV2 to stop inherent packet loss and low TCP throughput when all you can adjust is frame size. Please put some examples and facts behind your statements. I have 3 different trouble tickets with full test results and configs on each system to Mikrotik with the reply that THEY KNOW THERE IS A PROBLEM. They just refuse to fix it.
I omitted to add in my comment which should have read, "One size does NOT fit everyone perfectly" sorry?

to repeat I found NV2 to be more stable than 802.11 but a long way from being perfect as everyone knows here,

I am also a WISP and have had to solve my own issues, we cannot expect Mikrotik or any other supplier to solve our problems, why not - simply the issues are in most cases complicated with local and distant issues triggering some,

It never ceases to amaze me when users think better software will solve all wireless issues,
OK a particular build may suppress a issue for a while but does not solve it,

And in my opinion there is no supplier who can deliver wireless equipment "off the shelf" that is doesn't have operational shortcomings?

I like many others have setup a test network for testing new software before applying to the complete network and have spent a lot of time checking suggestions by other users and some were very good and others not so good, this is where I have got my tweaks that work for me, unfortunately there is no short cuts in getting the best or stabilizing a wireless network,

The first question I would be asking is what causes dropped packets with the equipment you have and how will i know if another supplier equipment will not have similar problems, no doubt some users will reply back saying brand x is great and then later you read others having a different type of issue with brand x

In my opinion there is a major fundamental operational issue with radio cards when they switch between TX and RX,
and this applies to all suppliers
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ste
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Re: What is wrong with nv2?

Fri Sep 25, 2015 11:41 pm



I do agree that tweaking is needed to get the most out of Mikrotik. I can not disagree more on a one size fits all perfectly. What you are telling me is a ISP with 2000 users should operated the same as a local wifi network. That is juvenile at best and as a forum guru i am highly disappointed in your reply. That is like saying that a linksys router works just as well as an enterprise cisco router. IT is simply untrue. In addition you don't see linksys (when owned by cisco) Run the SAME os as their enterprise routers.

The lack of understanding is starting to become obscene. When customers come to this forum with recommendations or requests. It is done as a loyal customer base trying to communicate with the company they do business with and Spend money on. The fact that all you ever get back is in just tweak it better is mind boggling. So Mr. n21Roadie Tell me how do you tweak NV2 to stop inherent packet loss and low TCP throughput when all you can adjust is frame size. Please put some examples and facts behind your statements. I have 3 different trouble tickets with full test results and configs on each system to Mikrotik with the reply that THEY KNOW THERE IS A PROBLEM. They just refuse to fix it.
I omitted to add in my comment which should have read, "One size does NOT fit everyone perfectly" sorry?

to repeat I found NV2 to be more stable than 802.11 but a long way from being perfect as everyone knows here,

I am also a WISP and have had to solve my own issues, we cannot expect Mikrotik or any other supplier to solve our problems, why not - simply the issues are in most cases complicated with local and distant issues triggering some,

It never ceases to amaze me when users think better software will solve all wireless issues,
OK a particular build may suppress a issue for a while but does not solve it,

And in my opinion there is no supplier who can deliver wireless equipment "off the shelf" that is doesn't have operational shortcomings?

I like many others have setup a test network for testing new software before applying to the complete network and have spent a lot of time checking suggestions by other users and some were very good and others not so good, this is where I have got my tweaks that work for me, unfortunately there is no short cuts in getting the best or stabilizing a wireless network,

The first question I would be asking is what causes dropped packets with the equipment you have and how will i know if another supplier equipment will not have similar problems, no doubt some users will reply back saying brand x is great and then later you read others having a different type of issue with brand x

In my opinion there is a major fundamental operational issue with radio cards when they switch between TX and RX,
and this applies to all suppliers
You can argue for a while. We've end of 2015 and development goes on. Just tested a competitors gear and can't no longer argue to stay with nv2. I talked to MT. I talked in this forum that something has to be done. They developed hex and whatsoever but nobody cares. May be their decisions are appropriate for MT and they sell more home routers than cpes. So I have to shop elsewhere.
 
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Re: What is wrong with nv2?

Sat Sep 26, 2015 12:22 am

I agree. I am tired of arguing as well. I actually moved parts of my network over to 802.11 last night. I actually got calls from customers telling me their service seamed allot better today then it has over the last few months. More telling is the call i got from one of my financial institutes that said their VPN has not dropped connection all day. (a first for them in over 9 months). Coincidence that this happens immediately after i move off of NV2 to (God forbid) 802.11. We have also tested Cambium and Ubiquity and find that they are (sorry to say) superior to Mikrotik on the Multipoint systems. I also believe MT focus has shifted from that of being a supplier to wisp's to that of consumers. It if is the right call for them that is fine. I still like their cloud core product line but sad to say unless something changes soon on the NV2 front I am going to have to start the migration to a different radio system.
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Re: What is wrong with nv2?

Sat Sep 26, 2015 4:17 am

No doubt if Mikrotik does not improve or at least keep up others on the wireless front we will all be forced to change,
Also the benefits will not be using 802.11 but another propriety TDMA wireless protocol and we know what that means,
Another thought is that while the addition of new AP's of a new brand will be fast the changeover of CPE's cannot happen overnight, but will Mikrotik and the other brand equipment co-exist on the same mast or will it be like hell for lot of customers until the swap out is completed, this will result in the loss of customers and we cannot expect to get the benefits of say gps sync until non gps equipment is removed?
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Re: What is wrong with nv2?

Sat Sep 26, 2015 3:18 pm

Out of curiosity guys..
1) how many cpe do you have on average on your nv2 sectors?
2) Average distance ap/cpe and min/max ?
3) How many different ap on the same must (same/different freq) ?
4) did you notice very different behavior on different 1/2/3 conditions?

I know, too many questions :lol:
 
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Re: What is wrong with nv2?

Sat Sep 26, 2015 10:26 pm

this picture is more than enough...think about it when you connect 20 to 30 clients.
CCQ is low at some clients because there is no traffic.
I forgot to say that ping is lower than other hours, it is worse in the rest of the day.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
Last edited by InoX on Sat Sep 26, 2015 10:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Re: What is wrong with nv2?

Sat Sep 26, 2015 10:33 pm

50/12mbits out of 40mhz on a sector is pretty terrible:/ on Cambiums ePMP equipment we can achieve the same and better (subject to clients having good signals / modulations) out of 20mhz...
 
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Re: What is wrong with nv2?

Sat Sep 26, 2015 10:43 pm

Not the speed is the problem (that was the real traffic at that hour), this sector can pass more than 100mbps, but the ping and jitter.
Also notice that are only 5 clients on the sector. In the future I will change Netmetal with Rocket AC, as soon as the software will be backwards compatible.
 
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Re: What is wrong with nv2?

Sat Sep 26, 2015 10:48 pm

For PtMP with TDMA i think the latency isnt bad; but the jitter is. To compare it to Cambium you will see about 17/18ms latency on the sector; but nearly no jitter at all even when fully loaded. I understand this is because if the 5ms frame interval they use; and that 2.5ms interval will be available in new firmware releases.

So from that perspective; with adaptive frame intervals in NV2; i think your latency looks good; but the jitter not so much. You might try to use the QOS in NV2 to prioritise ICMP and/or even TCP SYN and ACKs to improve performance? I've not tested this myself so i dont know if it would work; but its an idea at the least :)

The key thing that TDMA / NV2 is supposed to have over other methods is subscriber fairness. It absolutely works as expected on the ePMP stuff; but our experience has not been *that* great with Mikrotiks implementation. Yet.
 
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Re: What is wrong with nv2?

Sun Sep 27, 2015 5:25 pm


You can argue for a while. We've end of 2015 and development goes on. Just tested a competitors gear and can't no longer argue to stay with nv2. I talked to MT. I talked in this forum that something has to be done. They developed hex and whatsoever but nobody cares. May be their decisions are appropriate for MT and they sell more home routers than cpes. So I have to shop elsewhere.
I partly agree but as the switch to another brand for me will be a major task and cannot be understated the potential for increased number issues during the changeover,

To my knowledge all other competitors to date have two vital items missing
(1) Hardware auto tunable bandpass RF filter
(2) Custom Ratio of TDD for variable DL/UP
May be their decisions are appropriate for MT and they sell more home routers than cpes.
This is not a surprise but is my opinion is not accurate because YES they may not sell that many CPE's
for several reasons (price/performance, etc..) but unlike their competitors they sell components to "Made for Mikrotik"
companies, and this must surpass the sales of routers and switches.
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Re: What is wrong with nv2?

Sun Sep 27, 2015 7:11 pm


You can argue for a while. We've end of 2015 and development goes on. Just tested a competitors gear and can't no longer argue to stay with nv2. I talked to MT. I talked in this forum that something has to be done. They developed hex and whatsoever but nobody cares. May be their decisions are appropriate for MT and they sell more home routers than cpes. So I have to shop elsewhere.
I partly agree but as the switch to another brand for me will be a major task and cannot be understated the potential for increased number issues during the changeover,

To my knowledge all other competitors to date have two vital items missing
(1) Hardware auto tunable bandpass RF filter
(2) Custom Ratio of TDD for variable DL/UP
May be their decisions are appropriate for MT and they sell more home routers than cpes.
This is not a surprise but is my opinion is not accurate because YES they may not sell that many CPE's
for several reasons (price/performance, etc..) but unlike their competitors they sell components to "Made for Mikrotik"
companies, and this must surpass the sales of routers and switches.
One competitor integrates some filtering which allows to reduce interference on neighboring channels. There are 2 models. One has a sharper filter but allows only 40Mhz Channels. This is for PTMP. This is not GPS sync but reduces self interference and foreign interference. Did some testing and got some speedtest.net results (tcp) which blows mind.

You'll never swap all equipment at once. We've an always running update from older to newer equipment. Still 133c out there. So when we decide to do something new this is a migration which will run longer.
 
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Re: What is wrong with nv2?

Sun Sep 27, 2015 10:22 pm


One competitor integrates some filtering which allows to reduce interference on neighboring channels. There are 2 models. One has a sharper filter but allows only 40Mhz Channels. This is for PTMP. This is not GPS sync but reduces self interference and foreign interference. Did some testing and got some speedtest.net results (tcp) which blows mind.

You'll never swap all equipment at once. We've an always running update from older to newer equipment. Still 133c out there. So when we decide to do something new this is a migration which will run longer.
Good to read this but at what stage is the filtering done?
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Re: What is wrong with nv2?

Sun Sep 27, 2015 11:05 pm

He is talking about rocket ac ptp and ptmp already available on market.
 
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Re: What is wrong with nv2?

Mon Sep 28, 2015 12:36 am

He is talking about rocket ac ptp and ptmp already available on market.
Well if he is I don't think they are doing front-end filtering (i.e. before first stage of amplification) any where else can be close to ineffective and sales spin makes for good reading.
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Re: What is wrong with nv2?

Mon Sep 28, 2015 12:45 am

The Rocket 5AC-PtMP radios that were originally designed to work only in Point-to-Multipoint mode, and have an airPrism filter specifically tuned to 10, 20, 30 and 40MHz channel widths, so they won't perform as well using wider channels (50, 60 or 80MHz) as using narrower channels.

On the other hand the Rocket 5AC-PtP radios were originally designed to operate in PtP mode, and have an airPrism filter design to cover all channel widths (10, 20, 30, 40, 50, 60 and 80MHz). Because of the additional supported channel sizes, the Rocket 5AC-PTP airPrism filter isn't tuned as well for some of the narrower sizes.

The second afirmation is strange because it includes almost all usable channel widths so it will work very good in most of the cases.

Btw, this is copied from their forum.
 
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Re: What is wrong with nv2?

Mon Sep 28, 2015 12:56 am

He is talking about rocket ac ptp and ptmp already available on market.
Well if he is I don't think they are doing front-end filtering (i.e. before first stage of amplification) any where else can be close to ineffective and sales spin makes for good reading.
Just do a test.
 
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Re: What is wrong with nv2?

Mon Sep 28, 2015 4:18 am

While it is interesting. And I know we all have our own opinions I have set up a basic lab to test what i am seeing on my network.

I have setup a 4 nMAPs one as a AP and 3 CPE's I used ROS6.33rc15 with the CM2 package as Mikrotik Support have told me that is now the standard wireless package to use. Wireless-FP is now their legacy package (Yes i did not get the press release either).

Now setting them up on NV2 I averaged 4 ms of latency using Auto on frame size. UDP speed was 60 Meg up and down. TCP speed was 25 Meg up and 30 down. Not to bad i guess. I switched to 802.11 and UDP stayed constant. However TCP went to 58 Meg up and 55 down. To each CPE. Latency did increase some as 802.11 does. but it stayed at 1 ms with little traffic and 30 ms with full traffic.

I am sure i am not the only one who has done this. So in my opinion is does not matter if other vendors are stretching the hot-button features when NV2 is clearly not working. I have moved about half of my network to 802.11. And to my surprise customers have called in to comment on better speeds. Just and FYI.
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Re: What is wrong with nv2?

Wed Sep 30, 2015 4:59 pm

I dont get it. Prod environment, 912UAG-5HPnD with 12dB omni, 16 SXT clients = no problem to get >70Mbps TCP single connection one way throughput using NV2 and 20MHz channel. Latency with full load around 15ms, 4ms avg with load <50Mbps. ROS 6.19 on the AP, 6.27 on clients
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Re: What is wrong with nv2?

Fri Oct 02, 2015 6:05 pm

lucky79, could you please post an export from your AP? Just to see how did you set it.
Did you change queue configuration? How did you test 70Mbps TCP?
Thank you!
 
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Re: What is wrong with nv2?

Sat Oct 03, 2015 3:45 pm

lucky79, could you please post an export from your AP? Just to see how did you set it.
Did you change queue configuration? How did you test 70Mbps TCP?
Thank you!
Nothing special, just a basic config, bridge mode, did not change any queue configuration. BW test is done between Mikrotik x86 router and SXT client connected to the AP using 1 tcp connection. There was also some real traffic during the test shown on the screenshot.
/interface wireless
set [ find default-name=wlan1 ] ampdu-priorities=0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7 band=5ghz-onlyn \
    country="czech republic" disabled=no frequency=xxxx l2mtu=1600 mode=ap-bridge \
    nv2-cell-radius=10 rx-chains=0,1 ssid=xxxx tdma-period-size=auto tx-chains=0,1 \
    tx-power-mode=all-rates-fixed wireless-protocol=nv2
 
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Re: What is wrong with nv2?

Sat Oct 03, 2015 3:58 pm

@lucky79
What is min and max distance for the CPE's to the AP?
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Re: What is wrong with nv2?

Sat Oct 03, 2015 9:22 pm

@lucky79
What is min and max distance for the CPE's to the AP?
min 80m, max 500m

I think the conditions on this AP are very close to ideal, even there is many other collocated APs on neighboring channels (in my control) and some competitors around, there is very little interference.
So everyone should see similar results at least in their labs...

I have another AP 711GA-5HnD on 10dB OMNI with 13 clients between 50m and 3km, similar results, max throughput is around 70Mbps single TCP connection.

All clients on both AP are MIMO, some SXTs and some far CPEs PAR24Ex with 911s
 
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Re: What is wrong with nv2?

Sun Oct 04, 2015 9:01 pm

@lucky79
What is min and max distance for the CPE's to the AP?
min 80m, max 500m

I think the conditions on this AP are very close to ideal, even there is many other collocated APs on neighboring channels (in my control) and some competitors around, there is very little interference.
So everyone should see similar results at least in their labs...

I have another AP 711GA-5HnD on 10dB OMNI with 13 clients between 50m and 3km, similar results, max throughput is around 70Mbps single TCP connection.

All clients on both AP are MIMO, some SXTs and some far CPEs PAR24Ex with 911s
Don't understand the need for a 24dBi CPE dish to travel just 3KMs, also the low client number on the AP's is helping you.
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Re: What is wrong with nv2?

Mon Oct 05, 2015 9:44 am

@lucky79
What is min and max distance for the CPE's to the AP?
min 80m, max 500m

I think the conditions on this AP are very close to ideal, even there is many other collocated APs on neighboring channels (in my control) and some competitors around, there is very little interference.
So everyone should see similar results at least in their labs...

I have another AP 711GA-5HnD on 10dB OMNI with 13 clients between 50m and 3km, similar results, max throughput is around 70Mbps single TCP connection.

All clients on both AP are MIMO, some SXTs and some far CPEs PAR24Ex with 911s
Don't understand the need for a 24dBi CPE dish to travel just 3KMs, also the low client number on the AP's is helping you.
When you have heavy noisy environment, it's a great help.

We have even 29db CPE at such distance. Higher gain antenna = Narrower beam = better SNR. Of course, it allows us to use lower tx power, so we can reuse frequencies

Regards
 
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Re: What is wrong with nv2?

Mon Oct 05, 2015 10:05 am

When you have heavy noisy environment, it's a great help.

We have even 29db CPE at such distance. Higher gain antenna = Narrower beam = better SNR. Of course, it allows us to use lower tx power, so we can reuse frequencies

Regards
I guess this is the secret. nv2 needs optimal conditions to scale in PTMP. Non optimal client connections tear tcp speed down. With .ac the requirements increase.
 
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Re: What is wrong with nv2?

Mon Oct 05, 2015 11:41 am

Don't understand the need for a 24dBi CPE dish to travel just 3KMs, also the low client number on the AP's is helping you.
22-25dB CPE is a need for that distance to be able to sell 30Mb plans, especially when fresnel is not 100% clear. Add some noise and you would understand.
There are people in this thread with less clients and their throughput is much worse than mine, just showing that its possible but you need to engineer your network properly.
 
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Re: What is wrong with nv2?

Mon Oct 05, 2015 1:07 pm


22-25dB CPE is a need for that distance to be able to sell 30Mb plans, especially when fresnel is not 100% clear. Add some noise and you would understand.
There are people in this thread with less clients and their throughput is much worse than mine, just showing that its possible but you need to engineer your network properly.
Is it just Omni's you use for AP's and not sectors?
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Re: What is wrong with nv2?

Mon Oct 05, 2015 1:13 pm

When you have heavy noisy environment, it's a great help.

We have even 29db CPE at such distance. Higher gain antenna = Narrower beam = better SNR. Of course, it allows us to use lower tx power, so we can reuse frequencies

Regards
I understand the use of high gain antenna's to give a narrow TX/RX beam but this does not apply to a Omni AP
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Re: What is wrong with nv2?

Mon Oct 05, 2015 1:18 pm


I guess this is the secret. nv2 needs optimal conditions to scale in PTMP. Non optimal client connections tear tcp speed down. With .ac the requirements increase.
Very interesting but using Omni AP's for me is a non runner as distance to customers varies from 6-15+ Kms
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Re: What is wrong with nv2?

Mon Oct 05, 2015 1:58 pm

When you have heavy noisy environment, it's a great help.

We have even 29db CPE at such distance. Higher gain antenna = Narrower beam = better SNR. Of course, it allows us to use lower tx power, so we can reuse frequencies

Regards
I understand the use of high gain antenna's to give a narrow TX/RX beam but this does not apply to a Omni AP
Why? From the client side, you will receive less noise with more directive antenna.

This will improve AP > CPE traffic.

We have some customer running with 29db CPE and connecting to Omnitik AP at 5-6km without issues.
 
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Re: What is wrong with nv2?

Mon Oct 05, 2015 2:06 pm

When you have heavy noisy environment, it's a great help.

We have even 29db CPE at such distance. Higher gain antenna = Narrower beam = better SNR. Of course, it allows us to use lower tx power, so we can reuse frequencies

Regards
I understand the use of high gain antenna's to give a narrow TX/RX beam but this does not apply to a Omni AP
Why? From the client side, you will receive less noise with more directive antenna.

This will improve AP > CPE traffic.

We have some customer running with 29db CPE and connecting to Omnitik AP at 5-6km without issues.
When respecting country regulations you get a very low signal in most countries/bands at the omni at 5-6km. Omnitik has only 7db gain. The high gain cpe does only help with downlink with EIRP Rules.
 
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Re: What is wrong with nv2?

Mon Oct 05, 2015 2:37 pm

Why? From the client side, you will receive less noise with more directive antenna.

This will improve AP > CPE traffic.

We have some customer running with 29db CPE and connecting to Omnitik AP at 5-6km without issues.
Correct from client side with high gain directional it will have reduced signal pickup beyond main lobes in RX but the Omni
will have 360 degree pickup in RX mode, but then the lower gain of the Omni compared with a sector
AP is helping reduce the unwanted signal pickup
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Re: What is wrong with nv2?

Mon Oct 05, 2015 2:50 pm

Why? From the client side, you will receive less noise with more directive antenna.

This will improve AP > CPE traffic.

We have some customer running with 29db CPE and connecting to Omnitik AP at 5-6km without issues.
Correct from client side with high gain directional it will have reduced signal pickup beyond main lobes in RX but the Omni
will have 360 degree pickup in RX mode, but then the lower gain of the Omni compared with a sector
AP is helping reduce the unwanted signal pickup
Of course. Always is better to use narrow sectors. We use to install 10-15º sector in high density environments, but for some rural areas Omnitik perfoms fine
 
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Re: What is wrong with nv2?

Mon Oct 05, 2015 4:29 pm

Is it just Omni's you use for AP's and not sectors?
Of course not only Omni's, these are AP's in center of villages where number of CPEs is not high enough to invest in sectors for covering 360 degrees. As number of clients grows, we switch slowly from Omnis to sectors.
In bigger towns its impossible to get clean channel in all directions and of course the number of CPEs is higher, so we use sectors in these cases. But those are mostly the U*** brand, guess why - Mikrotik does not have high gain CPEs for reasonable price. A 24dB dish with 911 is too expensive for a CPE, Sextant not good at all for its price and now when Dynadish is out its too late... And the price is not quite nice too.
 
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Re: What is wrong with nv2?

Wed Oct 07, 2015 9:47 am

It's not that I complain on wireless capabilities of mikrotik gear. It's kind of observation I made. About year ago after I got dissapointed by 802.11ac support from mikrotik I decided to use other producer equipment. The other one that gave me so much enjoyment to work with. But lately I was forced to upgrade some older links, and gave mikrotik one shot more.
Dynadish 802.11ac met my expectations. I was very happy to see nicely working ptp on new software 6.30.4. after few weeks I decided to upgrade other AP, mostly omnitiks. and here we are, what is wrong with.... multipoint mode?? It's a disaster! after day or two it eventually stops passing traffic to clients. neither auto nor 2ms mode helped. Omnitik AP, 12 apc connected, subscribers up to 16mbps, wireless data rate 39-78-90 some with dual polarization even 180mbps.
on the client side speedtest.net shows...3mbps and significant loss of packets. jitter is over reasonable range.
channel under spectral scan is totally clear.
 
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Re: What is wrong with nv2?

Thu Oct 08, 2015 5:03 pm

It's not that I complain on wireless capabilities of mikrotik gear. It's kind of observation I made. About year ago after I got dissapointed by 802.11ac support from mikrotik I decided to use other producer equipment. The other one that gave me so much enjoyment to work with. But lately I was forced to upgrade some older links, and gave mikrotik one shot more.
Dynadish 802.11ac met my expectations. I was very happy to see nicely working ptp on new software 6.30.4. after few weeks I decided to upgrade other AP, mostly omnitiks. and here we are, what is wrong with.... multipoint mode?? It's a disaster! after day or two it eventually stops passing traffic to clients. neither auto nor 2ms mode helped. Omnitik AP, 12 apc connected, subscribers up to 16mbps, wireless data rate 39-78-90 some with dual polarization even 180mbps.
on the client side speedtest.net shows...3mbps and significant loss of packets. jitter is over reasonable range.
channel under spectral scan is totally clear.
AC is not as good as I would expect. Either PTP or PTMP. I have one mixed N/AC PTMP with SXTac SA as an AP and dont have any single issue with it, there is just 5 clients though...
Your rates doesn't seems to prove you have clear channel, sorry. Also mixing SISO and MIMO clients is not good practice.

Btw. I did have one OmniTik in my network, but would not recommend it. Antenna gain is too low and after 2 years I had issues with signals on one polarization so I guess the antenna started to fail. Replaced with 13dB OMNI from U***, put 711GA on it in metal box from RFelements and all works well.
 
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Re: What is wrong with nv2?

Sat Oct 10, 2015 11:05 pm

nv2 appears to be less perfect candidate for "multi-point" setups and for cases of saturated spectrum and signal power density.
its remain excellent choice for narrow-directional(dishes, yagi, etc) bridges, especially longer ones, for backhaul and etc.
just my opinion, others may had different.
can't guess why. maybe lack of csma dealing with saturated medium ? ie tdma isn't good enough?
 
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Re: What is wrong with nv2?

Sun Oct 11, 2015 11:45 pm

Seeing less than perfect results with nv2+ptmp+ac setup here, too. Some packet loss and changing Tx rates (from 6 to 173), despite strong signals and clean licensed 6 GHz spectrum. I suspect the AC radios are too sensitive to strong interference signals even very far in frequency from the used channel (about 500 MHz difference in my case). The relay site in question has a Mikrotik 6 GHz ac uplink, and RocketM5 sector 5 GHz AP on the same mast - simply powering down the RocketM5 (sending beacons, not real traffic yet) increases Btest results by about 10-20%.
 
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Re: What is wrong with nv2?

Wed Oct 14, 2015 12:39 pm

Hi,

we have an NV2 P2P Link with 100/100% CCQ on 40Mht 2S/SGI , but when i make an BWtest with 2 CCRs bihind the Antennas of the link, then result is 20-30 Mbit with max 1 TCP Connection and 100Mbit/s with 20 TCP Connections.
What can be wrong? With UDP is also 100 Mbit/s possible.
Antennas are SXT5 LITE5.
Of course, 100%CPU on SXT is made when i make the bwtest, but why are more Speed on more Connections?

Spectrum is perfectly clear. Antennas has perfect conditions....


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Re: What is wrong with nv2?

Tue Oct 20, 2015 9:51 am

I have complained about NV2 problems as much as anyone. I have notices however some improvement when using the wireless-cm package. You need to disable it from using cap and you push button authentication but i am seeing more stability and better tcp speeds. However The biggest issue i still see is actual throughput. On 802.11 and Routers 6.33 I do see fantastic speeds under 802.11(They did a update to the wireless-cm2 package. I don't understand why they can't bring these improvements to NV2.
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Re: What is wrong with nv2?

Tue Oct 20, 2015 10:12 am

I have complained about NV2 problems as much as anyone. I have notices however some improvement when using the wireless-cm package. You need to disable it from using cap and you push button authentication but i am seeing more stability and better tcp speeds. However The biggest issue i still see is actual throughput. On 802.11 and Routers 6.33 I do see fantastic speeds under 802.11(They did a update to the wireless-cm2 package. I don't understand why they can't bring these improvements to NV2.
I guess it is a HW limitation. The CPU is to weak to handle nv2 at higher data rates and higher number of cpes. Plain 802.11 is handled by the wireless part of the chipset. This wifi chipsets are not designed with a TDMA protocol in mind. For a chipmanufacterer like Atheros the numbers selled to WISP-Industry are neglectable compared to Laptop/PC Market. So MT would have to do some work at HW-Level to improve this. They still did not take this plunge (You have to spend a lot of money to do chipdesign) with the risk loosing the wireless part of their wisp business. For me it looks like they wait until Atheros delivers something better suited.
 
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Re: What is wrong with nv2?

Tue Oct 20, 2015 4:33 pm

I have complained about NV2 problems as much as anyone. I have notices however some improvement when using the wireless-cm package. You need to disable it from using cap and you push button authentication but i am seeing more stability and better tcp speeds. However The biggest issue i still see is actual throughput. On 802.11 and Routers 6.33 I do see fantastic speeds under 802.11(They did a update to the wireless-cm2 package. I don't understand why they can't bring these improvements to NV2.
I guess it is a HW limitation. The CPU is to weak to handle nv2 at higher data rates and higher number of cpes. Plain 802.11 is handled by the wireless part of the chipset. This wifi chipsets are not designed with a TDMA protocol in mind. For a chipmanufacterer like Atheros the numbers selled to WISP-Industry are neglectable compared to Laptop/PC Market. So MT would have to do some work at HW-Level to improve this. They still did not take this plunge (You have to spend a lot of money to do chipdesign) with the risk loosing the wireless part of their wisp business. For me it looks like they wait until Atheros delivers something better suited.
I suppose Mikrotik (and us, its customers) are paying the price of being a small company, operating in a smaller country. No easy access to big capital, no easy access to advanced hardware design know-how, no easy access to highly specialized engineering teams (such as the one from Motorola that designed the top-notch proprietary gear of a well-known competitor) and almost no access to chip foundries. Since they cannot design and build their own silicon, they are forced to accept the inherent limitations of whatever they can find in the market and try as much as they can to alleviate these shortcomings in software, that is, inefficiently.

Their strong advantage is what they fully control: routing software. So they are naturally focussing on this and also in the SOHO market, which is big but with less requirements. For now it seems they have lost the WISP game (at least the wireless part of it) for good. Too bad I have invested in their gear because of NV2...
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Re: What is wrong with nv2?

Fri Oct 23, 2015 11:16 pm

I've just reconfigured my PtMP setup from nv2 to plain 802.11ac, and it seems to work better now (tried nstreme too, but it also had issues like disconnecting frequently). Strangely enough, btest tcp results with nv2 seem significantly better than real speedtest.net results (that's what customers care about) - what's that, detecting when it's being tested like VW TDI cars? ;)

But, don't the AC radios have their own separate CPU and firmware to offload the main CPU (unlike N radios)? Perhaps the TDMA protocol could take advantage of it, possibly at the cost of backwards compatibility with older radios? My setup is all new AC radios in clean 6GHz licensed spectrum (out of necessity, as 5GHz is already saturated), so why not make a new TDMA protocol specifically for AC radios if abandoning backwards compatibility helps make it work better.
 
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Re: What is wrong with nv2?

Sat Oct 24, 2015 4:21 am

so far SFQ with reduced refresh timeout(1-2 sec ~)helps with NV2 issues, sometimes.
 
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Re: What is wrong with nv2?

Sat Oct 24, 2015 12:49 pm

I've just reconfigured my PtMP setup from nv2 to plain 802.11ac, and it seems to work better now (tried nstreme too, but it also had issues like disconnecting frequently). Strangely enough, btest tcp results with nv2 seem significantly better than real speedtest.net results (that's what customers care about) - what's that, detecting when it's being tested like VW TDI cars? ;)

But, don't the AC radios have their own separate CPU and firmware to offload the main CPU (unlike N radios)? Perhaps the TDMA protocol could take advantage of it, possibly at the cost of backwards compatibility with older radios? My setup is all new AC radios in clean 6GHz licensed spectrum (out of necessity, as 5GHz is already saturated), so why not make a new TDMA protocol specifically for AC radios if abandoning backwards compatibility helps make it work better.
When you run btest, you're probably running several simultaneous TCP flow. When you run speedtest, just one stream is used, and results are lower
 
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Re: What is wrong with nv2?

Sat Oct 24, 2015 12:58 pm

One of the key differences that accounts for this is that the Ookla/Speedtest tools utilize multiple TCP connections to collect the measurement data which is key to avoiding the receive window limitation
 
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Re: What is wrong with nv2?

Sat Oct 24, 2015 3:17 pm

I've just reconfigured my PtMP setup from nv2 to plain 802.11ac, and it seems to work better now (tried nstreme too, but it also had issues like disconnecting frequently). Strangely enough, btest tcp results with nv2 seem significantly better than real speedtest.net results (that's what customers care about) - what's that, detecting when it's being tested like VW TDI cars? ;)

But, don't the AC radios have their own separate CPU and firmware to offload the main CPU (unlike N radios)? Perhaps the TDMA protocol could take advantage of it, possibly at the cost of backwards compatibility with older radios? My setup is all new AC radios in clean 6GHz licensed spectrum (out of necessity, as 5GHz is already saturated), so why not make a new TDMA protocol specifically for AC radios if abandoning backwards compatibility helps make it work better.
When you run btest, you're probably running several simultaneous TCP flow. When you run speedtest, just one stream is used, and results are lower
speedtest.net uses up to 4 streams. This is what we use with btest and this matches with what customers see. Our goal is to show 80-100MBit/s to customers when they do a speedtest. They do not need this speeds but they want to see this to consider us a good working ISP.

AC Radios do not have supporting CPUs to do TDMA. MT has to use the Atheros CPU of the chipset. There are Vendors who do HW-Modifikations to offload the CPU or to add GPS. This is what MT has to do to compete in WISP market. For home/indoor AP use this is not neccesary as this is plain 802.11.
 
marekm
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Posts: 207
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Re: What is wrong with nv2?

Sun Oct 25, 2015 4:59 pm

AC Radios do not have supporting CPUs to do TDMA. MT has to use the Atheros CPU of the chipset. There are Vendors who do HW-Modifikations to offload the CPU or to add GPS. This is what MT has to do to compete in WISP market. For home/indoor AP use this is not neccesary as this is plain 802.11.
Well, but:
- UBNT M5 radios (ath9k) can do TDMA without an extra CPU, and while not perfect, they work reasonably well (except GPS which doesn't)
- AC radios (ath10k) do have an extra CPU running separate wireless firmware, perhaps that firmware could be modified to help TDMA on these radios

I've been running mostly UBNT M5 radios so far, but as 5GHz is getting crowded (too many competitors in the area), and UBNT are getting too paranoid about regulatory issues (limiting channels, forcing DFS etc.), so I decided to give MT AC a try for the new licensed 6GHz channels I've just got. And now I'm not convinced it was a good idea - MT, please prove me wrong by improving TDMA on AC radios.
 
ste
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Re: What is wrong with nv2?

Sun Oct 25, 2015 6:33 pm

AC Radios do not have supporting CPUs to do TDMA. MT has to use the Atheros CPU of the chipset. There are Vendors who do HW-Modifikations to offload the CPU or to add GPS. This is what MT has to do to compete in WISP market. For home/indoor AP use this is not neccesary as this is plain 802.11.
Well, but:
- UBNT M5 radios (ath9k) can do TDMA without an extra CPU, and while not perfect, they work reasonably well (except GPS which doesn't)
- AC radios (ath10k) do have an extra CPU running separate wireless firmware, perhaps that firmware could be modified to help TDMA on these radios

I've been running mostly UBNT M5 radios so far, but as 5GHz is getting crowded (too many competitors in the area), and UBNT are getting too paranoid about regulatory issues (limiting channels, forcing DFS etc.), so I decided to give MT AC a try for the new licensed 6GHz channels I've just got. And now I'm not convinced it was a good idea - MT, please prove me wrong by improving TDMA on AC radios.
M5 are outdated now. Very interesting that UBNT tries to follow rules now. They are growing up. These rules make sense in many cases. Following their NEXT they recognized the "getting crowded" problem and try to address this. With using 6GHz you will be limited with usable gear.

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