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6.5km 1000mbps full duplex design

Posted: Tue Feb 14, 2017 12:33 pm
by Quicksivler
I'm looking to do 1000mbps full duplex (gig up and down simultaneously) over 6.5km. I was going to go with ubiquity airfiber24hd but thought about the mikrotik devices we use. So this is the setup I came with

Each end has a RB922UAGS-5HPacT-NM (so triple chain 1600mw ac radio) and an additional R11e-5HacT (500mw triple chain ac radio) installed. Each site would also get 3x dual polarity 30db dishes (one would probably be at a 45deg offset) so all 6 chains can be connected. The radios would be configured on 2 diverse 80mhz frequencies using all 3 chains

Now with the radios being different TX power I'm going to assume they if just connected together and bonded they will run different speeds as the lower TX power in the R11e-5HacT would cause a lower modulation to take place so nv2 and bonding will provide less then optimal results.

So, I'm leaning towards doing a dual nstream (nstream2) configuration so in one RB922UAGS-5HPacT-NM box the builtin radio at 1600mw is a TX radio and the miniPCIe is an RX radio where the higher power radios transmit only and the lower TX power radio only Reciever

As triple chain ac radio at 256quam can get a theoretical ethernet throughput of around 1gbps, each radio should be able to obtain 1gbps each direction giving full duplex. This is basically what the mimosa b5 does with 2 dual chain radios, I just want to use 3 chains, and wish mikrotik made a 4 chain radio if this works

Does anyone see an issue with this... I vaguely remember hearing about nstream having a 100mbps limit, but not sure that's correct, if someone can verify, or debunk this (including mikrotik staff) I'd be thankful. If anyone has a better idea as to configuration please speak up

Re: 6.5km 1000mbps full duplex design

Posted: Tue Feb 14, 2017 1:23 pm
by ivicask
Why bother with those additional wlan cards, just get 4x RB922UAGS-5HPacT-NM, 2 on each side, connect antenas as you previously mentioned, than do interface bonding.You will get 2000mbps link.If you want guarantee 1000 mbps both ways you can set up some Queue to limit it to 1000mbit one way, or do even better balance where it drops lets say download in case more upload was requested.
EDIT:Actualy you dont even need any kind of queues, just do bonding on some MT switch and the exit port will automatically get max 1gb both ways, and bonding interface can do its own balancing to maintain 1gb full duplex(combining 2x 1gb links).
Just my opinion.

Re: 6.5km 1000mbps full duplex design

Posted: Tue Feb 14, 2017 1:49 pm
by soulflyhigh
I don't think this is possible, at least not 1gbps full duplex with unlicensed 5GHz band - in this conditions and with Mikrotik maybe half of that is more realistic expectation.
Usually there is just too much interference and you would need absolutely clean 80+80 MHz plus some more of bandwidth.
Even if you get it (and in that case I would be really surprised) there is no way you could guarantee it because there is always possibility of interference.

If you decide to try it, Nv2 is much better for getting higher throughput, use latest stable RouterOS and power down your radio as much as possible (-45 to -50dBm would be a target signal level).

Regards,
M.

Re: 6.5km 1000mbps full duplex design

Posted: Tue Feb 14, 2017 1:59 pm
by Quicksivler
Would work... but to bond we would need another device (switch or routerboard) to bond through so costs do go up with additional rb922 and whatever they Bond through. Also if one radio slows down (interference) it will slow the bond as a whole down (unless you can do an unbalanced Bond... I've only ever used lacp where each bonded interface needs to run at the same speed, so I'm not sure an unbalanced Bond is possible... time to read more). But that is a valid and known to work configuration without taking up anymore spectrum or resources.

As a side note I did think of using the 2 radios via nv2 and bonded internally in the rb922., but the 500mw vs the 1600mw would give a different speed... but if they were able of be bonded unbalanced, then that may also work, but more of a chance of lower speeds...

If only they made a gigabit powerbox, installation would be easy
Why bother with those additional wlan cards, just get 4x RB922UAGS-5HPacT-NM, 2 on each side, connect antenas as you previously mentioned, than do interface bonding.You will get 2000mbps link.If you want guarantee 1000 mbps both ways you can set up some Queue to limit it to 1000mbit one way, or do even better balance where it drops lets say download in case more upload was requested.
EDIT:Actualy you dont even need any kind of queues, just do bonding on some MT switch and the exit port will automatically get max 1gb both ways, and bonding interface can do its own balancing to maintain 1gb full duplex(combining 2x 1gb links).
Just my opinion.

Re: 6.5km 1000mbps full duplex design

Posted: Tue Feb 14, 2017 2:11 pm
by Quicksivler
With set's using nv2 I have seen 550-600mbps pretty regularly on our ptmp network, but would say signal needs to be more in the -40 to -45dbm range, and I'm fairly certain I can get 2 clean 80mhz channels. In any frequency outside of licensed (and even licensed soemtimes) there is a possibility of interference. If we are a little shy on speed I wouldn't be too concerned. If speed needed to be garenteed I could possibly even do three 80mhz channels (although antenna placement may be the would be an issue and getting a 3rd clean 80mhz channel would take some work).

As I said, ubiquiti airfiber will do it 98% garenteed, but I'd rather stick with mikrotik if possible, probably will just try it and see how it goes with mikrotik first.. I really wish the account chips for mikrotik had the spectrum analyzer though.
I don't think this is possible, at least not 1gbps full duplex with unlicensed 5GHz band - in this conditions and with Mikrotik maybe half of that is more realistic expectation.
Usually there is just too much interference and you would need absolutely clean 80+80 MHz plus some more of bandwidth.
Even if you get it (and in that case I would be really surprised) there is no way you could guarantee it because there is always possibility of interference.

If you decide to try it, Nv2 is much better for getting higher throughput, use latest stable RouterOS and power down your radio as much as possible (-45 to -50dBm would be a target signal level).

Regards,
M.

Re: 6.5km 1000mbps full duplex design

Posted: Wed Feb 15, 2017 11:35 am
by h3ll1
Can you show me iperf TCP test? I suspect it will be around 200-250Mbps.

Re: 6.5km 1000mbps full duplex design

Posted: Thu Feb 23, 2017 5:52 pm
by p3rad0x
Rather go for a 24Ghz link. or even maybe a 60Ghz licence link.

Then maybe install a backup 5ghz link for when there is bad weather conditions like heavy rain/snow

Re: 6.5km 1000mbps full duplex design

Posted: Mon Mar 06, 2017 12:22 am
by haik01
Is the 1 Gbps link mandatory? What QOS do you expect? Even on wired networks, the 1 Gbps is not always quaranteed, since the switch has a maximum (total) throughput.

What happens, if the link is doing 800 Mbps, or less? Is that a "problem"?

In other words: what is the cost of "guarantee". Even a carrier grade link for mobile networks (like Ericsson, Nokia, Siemens), has an availability of 99,95%. Of course they use a licensed band, so that band is "clean". But these dishes costs around 4000$ each.

Re: 6.5km 1000mbps full duplex design

Posted: Mon Mar 06, 2017 1:58 am
by sasskass
Hi

Impossible with MT, They even dont have their own asic in 5Ghz RF, so You will end up with interference and unstablility. Rather go ubnt AF5... or as You mean AF24HD

Re: 6.5km 1000mbps full duplex design

Posted: Mon Mar 06, 2017 2:06 am
by sasskass
re: haik01

Show me what frequency link, or antrennas costs 4000€ ??? UBNT has even 11Ghz gear for pennies, so buliding the unstable "LEGO" with MT is VERY bad suggestion for person, who is asking an neutral suggestion - guaranteed stable solution...

Even Alcoma will be cheaper, than bonded and unstable MT LEGO link.

Only If MT will bring out 24Ghz SXT or 60Ghz SXT etc. with their custom designed RF, then my opinion will be changed in their radio capabilities.

Sorry, but its truth

Aleksander

Re: 6.5km 1000mbps full duplex design

Posted: Tue Mar 07, 2017 1:03 pm
by estar
I would reccomended to go with a licenced dual polarity 112 mhz channel. You can get 866mbps full duplex and you will have it guarenteed. Save the 5ghz for last mile and dont bother trying to do so much with unlicenced channels. I think you will never see the capacity you wish with unlicenced. It's possible the airfibre can do it but even that is licence free and suceptable to problems in heavy rain.

Re: 6.5km 1000mbps full duplex design

Posted: Wed Mar 15, 2017 2:43 pm
by karina
Seriously go with 24ghz Airfibre. it is what it designed for. Rock solid. stable virtually no intererence issue. Only thing to consider is rain fade. If rainfade is an issue for your location then go for 5ghz airfiber. Dont even consider mikrotik scenario for this project.