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wAP 60G experience

Mon Dec 18, 2017 4:12 pm

Hello, what are test results of this equipment?

Our experience is quite surprising, keep on mind this is WiFi Renesans..

There are very few technical information in menu. No Signal strength information, just quality and MCS modulation method. On RF spectral analyser we saw something like 2GHz channel width, but we need to get pre amplifier to see more. Estimated POut ERP is 100 mW, the gain of antenna is unknown, but we estimated something from 13-20 dBi. Anyway with this we are still linking on 200m, tests will follow! Premature Merry Christmas!!
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Re: wAP 60G experience

Mon Dec 18, 2017 10:13 pm

Hello, what are test results of this equipment?

Our experience is quite surprising, keep on mind this is WiFi Renesans..

There are very few technical information in menu. No Signal strength information, just quality and MCS modulation method. On RF spectral analyser we saw something like 2GHz channel width, but we need to get pre amplifier to see more. Estimated POut ERP is 100 mW, the gain of antenna is unknown, but we estimated something from 13-20 dBi. Anyway with this we are still linking on 200m, tests will follow! Premature Merry Christmas!!
What results are you getting?
Still expecting some kits I ordered for a test.
But in all, I expect a good result for backhauling of WiFi traffic around clusters of buildings.
A 200m LOS/nLOS distance is good enough in my use case.
 
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Re: wAP 60G experience

Mon Dec 18, 2017 10:22 pm

200m is over the physical limit quality 30-40 points, which is almost no L2 link.. capacity is below 30mbit
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Re: wAP 60G experience

Mon Dec 18, 2017 10:50 pm

200m is over the physical limit quality 30-40 points, which is almost no L2 link.. capacity is below 30mbit
Did you say below 30Mbps? At what distance do you get the full rated capacity from your test?
 
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Re: wAP 60G experience

Tue Dec 19, 2017 12:13 am

320m signal 80 MCS 8 full speed but one side wAP is inserted into LHG XL
 
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Re: wAP 60G experience

Tue Dec 19, 2017 2:50 am

Anybody know if signal level and/or MCS could be readed via SNMP? RouterOS 6.40.5

thankx, L.
 
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Re: wAP 60G experience

Tue Dec 19, 2017 8:36 am

320m signal 80 MCS 8 full speed but one side wAP is inserted into LHG XL
More info! How exactly did you do this?
 
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Re: wAP 60G experience

Tue Dec 19, 2017 11:39 am

200m is over the physical limit quality 30-40 points, which is almost no L2 link.. capacity is below 30mbit
Did you say below 30Mbps? At what distance do you get the full rated capacity from your test?
Thats not the goal at the moment, we need to find sensitivity edge level for at least MCS4 with that patch antenna, which we believe is somewhere about 140-150m, than we will move forward to concentrate signal either to horn or to waveguide.
We are now on edge of MCS0 which is BPSK, the QPSK is + 3dB, the 16QAM is + 9dB, this is overall performance windows from zero to hero..

We are now exactly 230 m far, so the 100m distance should be +6dB and more which means MCS8 = almost full speed

Other part of team is now checking up params of radio part, at least oscillator can do quite better = better sensitivity.
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Re: wAP 60G experience

Tue Dec 19, 2017 11:44 am

Hello, what are test results of this equipment?

Our experience is quite surprising, keep on mind this is WiFi Renesans..

There are very few technical information in menu. No Signal strength information, just quality and MCS modulation method. On RF spectral analyser we saw something like 2GHz channel width, but we need to get pre amplifier to see more. Estimated POut ERP is 100 mW, the gain of antenna is unknown, but we estimated something from 13-20 dBi. Anyway with this we are still linking on 200m, tests will follow! Premature Merry Christmas!!
What results are you getting?
Still expecting some kits I ordered for a test.
But in all, I expect a good result for backhauling of WiFi traffic around clusters of buildings.
A 200m LOS/nLOS distance is good enough in my use case.
200m is behind the edge for using. We are expecting range of 140-160m is the max with wAP, as the gain of antenna and estimated 20dBm ERP. THis makes sense, that with antenna 1 feet you can gain next 40dB ! of gain with correct EIRP parameter, we will know more soon
Frequency microwave transvertors, design, development, manufacture
http://Pojitko.cz
 
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Re: wAP 60G experience

Tue Dec 19, 2017 11:47 am

320m signal 80 MCS 8 full speed but one side wAP is inserted into LHG XL
It is blow. with such apperture and quality antenna you will get complete MCS12 on 1,5km
Frequency microwave transvertors, design, development, manufacture
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mag2020
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Re: wAP 60G experience

Wed Dec 20, 2017 10:54 am

Hello, what are test results of this equipment?

Our experience is quite surprising, keep on mind this is WiFi Renesans..

There are very few technical information in menu. No Signal strength information, just quality and MCS modulation method. On RF spectral analyser we saw something like 2GHz channel width, but we need to get pre amplifier to see more. Estimated POut ERP is 100 mW, the gain of antenna is unknown, but we estimated something from 13-20 dBi. Anyway with this we are still linking on 200m, tests will follow! Premature Merry Christmas!!
What results are you getting?
Still expecting some kits I ordered for a test.
But in all, I expect a good result for backhauling of WiFi traffic around clusters of buildings.
A 200m LOS/nLOS distance is good enough in my use case.
200m is behind the edge for using. We are expecting range of 140-160m is the max with wAP, as the gain of antenna and estimated 20dBm ERP. THis makes sense, that with antenna 1 feet you can gain next 40dB ! of gain with correct EIRP parameter, we will know more soon
Thanks for sharing. Sure the antenna size should be small at 60GHz. And that gives the size advantage but with higher propagation losses I doubt if your signal can go far.
 
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Re: wAP 60G experience

Wed Dec 20, 2017 11:18 am

im already writing about this in viewtopic.php?f=7&t=128251
obviously its possible to mount wap60 board inside lhg housing, i think its possible to mount in ldf housing also,
only question is how mehanical fix 60ghz antenna on top of the board before replacing housing.
further mounting ldf on a larger parabola is simple task.
dont forget big problem about aiming on 60ghz.
big question for mikrotik is why we dont have more data about 60ghz board and why we dont have more control on that boards?
there are some logic for wap60 regarding his simplified role in network.
but, how do they think we can use and setup lhg60 as PtP without detailed information about the signal,rates?
how to examine and find problem when it arises on 60ghz links if we do not have any information?
 
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Re: wAP 60G experience

Wed Dec 20, 2017 11:25 am

Hello, what are test results of this equipment?

Our experience is quite surprising, keep on mind this is WiFi Renesans..

There are very few technical information in menu. No Signal strength information, just quality and MCS modulation method. On RF spectral analyser we saw something like 2GHz channel width, but we need to get pre amplifier to see more. Estimated POut ERP is 100 mW, the gain of antenna is unknown, but we estimated something from 13-20 dBi. Anyway with this we are still linking on 200m, tests will follow! Premature Merry Christmas!!


What results are you getting?
Still expecting some kits I ordered for a test.
But in all, I expect a good result for backhauling of WiFi traffic around clusters of buildings.
A 200m LOS/nLOS distance is good enough in my use case.
200m is behind the edge for using. We are expecting range of 140-160m is the max with wAP, as the gain of antenna and estimated 20dBm ERP. THis makes sense, that with antenna 1 feet you can gain next 40dB ! of gain with correct EIRP parameter, we will know more soon
Thanks for sharing. Sure the antenna size should be small at 60GHz. And that gives the size advantage but with higher propagation losses I doubt if your signal can go far.
All the factors are just great. Huge propagation loss (12dB/km) are keen to dense repeating of band, the narrow beams will be ok up to 1 km. Right now we made several tweaks, making 500m with MCS 8.
Frequency microwave transvertors, design, development, manufacture
http://Pojitko.cz
 
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Re: wAP 60G experience

Wed Dec 20, 2017 11:43 am

im already writing about this in viewtopic.php?f=7&t=128251
obviously its possible to mount wap60 board inside lhg housing, i think its possible to mount in ldf housing also,
only question is how mehanical fix 60ghz antenna on top of the board before replacing housing.
further mounting ldf on a larger parabola is simple task.
dont forget big problem about aiming on 60ghz.
big question for mikrotik is why we dont have more data about 60ghz board and why we dont have more control on that boards?
there are some logic for wap60 regarding his simplified role in network.
but, how do they think we can use and setup lhg60 as PtP without detailed information about the signal,rates?
how to examine and find problem when it arises on 60ghz links if we do not have any information?
Hi, totally agree there are very few user interface information fir those who use it in professional basis, but enough for dummies. I believe MikroTik will release more tweaks for this band, it is not necessary to mess with band this way. Channel width is about 2 GHz, which wastes band, and capacity on 16QAM is 4,5GBPS. This needs to be chopped to subbbands like 225MHz, 500MHz or 1GHz channels to make better location planning which will be enough to carry 500Mbit in 16QAM, or 1Gbit in 256QAM etc.. We see big underdevelopment in radio part and antenna. There are also 4 nests for modules, which will bring expansion for yx MIMO. This is complete new revolution of WISPs !
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Re: wAP 60G experience

Wed Dec 20, 2017 11:59 am

Hi, totally agree there are very few user interface information fir those who use it in professional basis, but enough for dummies. I believe MikroTik will release more tweaks for this band, it is not necessary to mess with band this way. Channel width is about 2 GHz, which wastes band, and capacity on 16QAM is 4,5GBPS. This needs to be chopped to subbbands like 225MHz, 500MHz or 1GHz channels to make better location planning which will be enough to carry 500Mbit in 16QAM, or 1Gbit in 256QAM etc.. We see big underdevelopment in radio part and antenna. There are also 4 nests for modules, which will bring expansion for yx MIMO. This is complete new revolution of WISPs !
Looks like the chipsets are limited at the moment. Ignitenet (peraso chipset) does not allow to change 2GHz channelwidth, too. Esp where lower bandwidth is enough it would save spectrum. And I guess smaller channels are more stable, too. 60GHz Wifi seems to be at the beginning but will be a very valuable tool.
 
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Re: wAP 60G experience

Wed Dec 20, 2017 12:42 pm

we cant (without enormous hassle) setup and maintain 60ghz link over more than 500m without rssi signal level.
 
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Re: wAP 60G experience

Wed Dec 20, 2017 12:46 pm

Hi, totally agree there are very few user interface information fir those who use it in professional basis, but enough for dummies. I believe MikroTik will release more tweaks for this band, it is not necessary to mess with band this way. Channel width is about 2 GHz, which wastes band, and capacity on 16QAM is 4,5GBPS. This needs to be chopped to subbbands like 225MHz, 500MHz or 1GHz channels to make better location planning which will be enough to carry 500Mbit in 16QAM, or 1Gbit in 256QAM etc.. We see big underdevelopment in radio part and antenna. There are also 4 nests for modules, which will bring expansion for yx MIMO. This is complete new revolution of WISPs !
Looks like the chipsets are limited at the moment. Ignitenet (peraso chipset) does not allow to change 2GHz channelwidth, too. Esp where lower bandwidth is enough it would save spectrum. And I guess smaller channels are more stable, too. 60GHz Wifi seems to be at the beginning but will be a very valuable tool.
I dont think so..they are may be limited with modulation method as the LO for multiplier is really bad parameters, but about bandwidth I am completely sure, they can do what ever they want, there is I a Q baseband with 800MHz clock ducted to balance mixer which has harmonic 8 time mulitplier, so if you will put lower baseband the lower bandwidth will be available.
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Re: wAP 60G experience

Wed Dec 20, 2017 12:50 pm

we cant (without enormous hassle) setup and maintain 60ghz link over more than 500m without rssi signal level.
If you use standard mesh antenna, which is fine for 5 GHZ you cant make fortune on 60 GHz, the wavelength is 1/2 cm, I am surprised you made more..
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Re: wAP 60G experience

Thu Dec 21, 2017 4:52 pm

Only Signal and MCS are displayed (in 6.40.5). Lowest signal is 40 (MCS 4) than link disconnect. by Signal 45 is MCS 6 and by Signal 50 is MCS 8. I am not able to read both values from SNMP nor parsing web interface (to put values to my own monitoring system). Anybody have idea?
 
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Re: wAP 60G experience

Thu Dec 21, 2017 6:04 pm

320m signal 80 MCS 8 full speed but one side wAP is inserted into LHG XL
Please can you post some pics about this hack?

Thank you
 
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Re: wAP 60G experience

Fri Dec 22, 2017 9:35 am

wAP60G uses an complex algorithm to select best elements from patch array. With reflector it needs to be re calibrated to be able to work correctly.
 
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Re: wAP 60G experience

Fri Dec 22, 2017 9:42 am

In addition to what Antons says, the LHG grid is not optimal to work as reflector for 60GHz. It will only reflect a small part of the signal. Need some more solid stuff
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Re: wAP 60G experience

Fri Dec 22, 2017 1:08 pm

wAP60G uses an complex algorithm to select best elements from patch array. With reflector it needs to be re calibrated to be able to work correctly.
Are you able to provide us interface to enable certain groups of elements of phase array grid?
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Re: wAP 60G experience

Fri Dec 22, 2017 1:12 pm

In addition to what Antons says, the LHG grid is not optimal to work as reflector for 60GHz. It will only reflect a small part of the signal. Need some more solid stuff
We would be happy tp interact more with your developer team on this issue a present whole bunch of new solutions, is there any way ?
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Re: wAP 60G experience

Fri Dec 22, 2017 3:23 pm

We would be happy tp interact more with your developer team on this issue a present whole bunch of new solutions, is there any way ?
You are welcome to email support@mikrotik.com with your ideas, suggestions and observations
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Re: wAP 60G experience

Fri Dec 22, 2017 5:33 pm

Normis please ETA for the LHG60?

Thank you
 
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Re: wAP 60G experience

Sat Dec 23, 2017 12:23 am

@Insider: do You think that in 120m distance Wap60 is strong enough for AF24 replace (max300mbits of traffic) ?
 
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Re: wAP 60G experience

Sat Dec 23, 2017 4:36 am

320m signal 80 MCS 8 full speed but one side wAP is inserted into LHG XL
Please can you post some pics about this hack?

Thank you
first I tested about 1 month when wAP 60 in LHG only with tape but today I recieved another units so I make new version :-) foto https://ulozto.sk/tam/_PQHTNYRtxU2w
second unit will make today I try better work :-)
 
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Re: wAP 60G experience

Sat Dec 23, 2017 12:18 pm

@Insider: do You think that in 120m distance Wap60 is strong enough for AF24 replace (max300mbits of traffic) ?
Should be OK
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Re: wAP 60G experience

Sat Dec 23, 2017 1:02 pm

obviously its possible to replace wap60 board into lhg box relatively easy. Still I am convinced that the lhg mesh reflector isnt best solution for 60ghz wavelenght.
i will repeat it again. Probably would be the best to replace somehow wap60 board inside ldf box and then mount ldf60 on any appropriate parabolic dish.
I'm pretty sure that mikrotik not planned lhg60 for reliable p2p link over 500m. i dont say its not be a possible but there is regulatory limitations and also price range.
it may be easier to replace lhg60 board inside ldf and then reach a greater distance with parabolic dish especially taking into account the problems with the antenna inside wap60.
I will repeat it again, all this is torture and big hasle if we can not further adjust the parameters of the 60ghz connection, as well monitoring the same ones on the active p2p link.
 
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Re: wAP 60G experience

Sat Dec 23, 2017 1:12 pm

i dont want to vacillate,
but watching pictures from the assembly wap60 board inside lhg box although you have very elegantly resolved board mounting,
I dont think you have positioned the antenna exactly in the middle of lhg box as it should be for optimum results
please consider this
 
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Re: wAP 60G experience

Sat Dec 23, 2017 2:31 pm

first I tested about 1 month when wAP 60 in LHG only with tape but today I recieved another units so I make new version :-) foto https://ulozto.sk/tam/_PQHTNYRtxU2w
second unit will make today I try better work :-)
thank you a lot
Last edited by server8 on Sat Dec 23, 2017 2:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Re: wAP 60G experience

Sat Dec 23, 2017 2:31 pm

As it was written before LHG is not the type of antenna which is eligible to work properly with the phase array antenna by the first, then the mesh is not proper surface. Except the phase distraction, the surface is not fully exposed to feeder. At the moment you need some surface with f/D about 0.7 - 0.9, the LHG has something like 0.3-0.4
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Re: wAP 60G experience

Sat Dec 23, 2017 4:27 pm

obviously its possible to replace wap60 board into lhg box relatively easy. Still I am convinced that the lhg mesh reflector isnt best solution for 60ghz wavelenght.
i will repeat it again. Probably would be the best to replace somehow wap60 board inside ldf box and then mount ldf60 on any appropriate parabolic dish.
I'm pretty sure that mikrotik not planned lhg60 for reliable p2p link over 500m. i dont say its not be a possible but there is regulatory limitations and also price range.
it may be easier to replace lhg60 board inside ldf and then reach a greater distance with parabolic dish especially taking into account the problems with the antenna inside wap60.
I will repeat it again, all this is torture and big hasle if we can not further adjust the parameters of the 60ghz connection, as well monitoring the same ones on the active p2p link.
And what cooling ? how make cooling inside lfd ? wAP60 has very big cooler
 
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Re: wAP 60G experience

Sat Dec 23, 2017 9:25 pm

its ok to mount radio on metal cooling plate, i just say that antenna should be fixed to center of lhg box.
Last edited by vlatko on Sat Dec 23, 2017 9:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Re: wAP 60G experience

Sat Dec 23, 2017 9:34 pm

mikrotik say, antennas in wap60g a phased array beamforming. i understand why is that important in p2mp conecting several wap60 to one from different directions.
but i dont understand when we have simple wap60 configuration or two wap60 in p2p how that work, meaning whitch patch antennas coresponding inbetween.
i doubt that type of connection include funcionality of all phased array patch.
possibly a key role is in some algorithm in device hardware, so i find its easily solvable but depends from good will from mikrotik.
Last edited by vlatko on Sat Dec 23, 2017 9:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Re: wAP 60G experience

Sat Dec 23, 2017 9:34 pm

And what cooling ? how make cooling inside lfd ? wAP60 has very big cooler
It should consume, by datasheet, only 5W. Also supplied power source is only 24V/0,38A. So I guess wAP60 is overcooled for some reason...
 
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Re: wAP 60G experience

Sun Dec 24, 2017 10:34 am

I have some questions about hardware:

1) which kind of connector is for the antenna pigtail? Ufl?
2) the communications from board to antenna is base band or 60ghz?
3) is it possible to use longer pigtail?

Thank you
 
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Re: wAP 60G experience

Sun Dec 24, 2017 12:00 pm

And what cooling ? how make cooling inside lfd ? wAP60 has very big cooler
It should consume, by datasheet, only 5W. Also supplied power source is only 24V/0,38A. So I guess wAP60 is overcooled for some reason...
In Idle WAP60g Uses 2,5 W at 23,5V
With max Best running over them it is 3,2 to 3,3 W

mistry7
 
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Re: wAP 60G experience

Sun Dec 24, 2017 4:35 pm

I have some questions about hardware:

1) which kind of connector is for the antenna pigtail? Ufl?
Looks more likely like UMCC, but not verified...
 
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Re: wAP 60G experience

Sun Dec 24, 2017 11:03 pm

its not 60ghz antenna pigtail, its look like 60ghz radio or downconverter is integrated on back of phased array pcb,
first cable is power source,
pigtail possible have some rf role, downcoverting to lower freq? or connecting to baseband?
 
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Re: wAP 60G experience

Wed Dec 27, 2017 12:08 pm

its not 60ghz antenna pigtail, its look like 60ghz radio or downconverter is integrated on back of phased array pcb,
first cable is power source,
pigtail possible have some rf role, downcoverting to lower freq? or connecting to baseband?
Cable contains base band and telemetry, it is not uFL neiter ipex, it is smaller
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Re: wAP 60G experience

Wed Dec 27, 2017 10:39 pm

one of the options, by the way the dimensions are in pdf as well available..

https://www.pasternack.com/images/Produ ... 881-24.pdf
 
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Re: wAP 60G experience

Wed Dec 27, 2017 11:28 pm

one of the options, by the way the dimensions are in pdf as well available..

https://www.pasternack.com/images/Produ ... 881-24.pdf
QUANTITY PRICE
1-24 $1,182.91
 
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Re: wAP 60G experience

Thu Dec 28, 2017 12:49 am

who told you to buy, i think it is very simple to make it by your own, dimensions are available, construction is very simple... placing the tx-rx unit in the center and using "rouper" should give an directional improvement... i did not checked my thoughts, but it might work :) who wanna try/ proove mathematically?
 
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Re: wAP 60G experience

Thu Dec 28, 2017 2:00 am

who told you to buy, i think it is very simple to make it by your own, dimensions are available, construction is very simple... placing the tx-rx unit in the center and using "rouper" should give an directional improvement... i did not checked my thoughts, but it might work :) who wanna try/ proove mathematically?
Man, I do not know much about microwaves, but what I know is enough to imagine the price is equal of what you get in this case. If you want to DIY, than (without irony) good luck. So much variables are in play....
 
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Re: wAP 60G experience

Thu Dec 28, 2017 11:33 am

who told you to buy, i think it is very simple to make it by your own, dimensions are available, construction is very simple... placing the tx-rx unit in the center and using "rouper" should give an directional improvement... i did not checked my thoughts, but it might work :) who wanna try/ proove mathematically?
Man, I do not know much about microwaves, but what I know is enough to imagine the price is equal of what you get in this case. If you want to DIY, than (without irony) good luck. So much variables are in play....

Sorted out..
Frequency microwave transvertors, design, development, manufacture
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server8
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Re: wAP 60G experience

Fri Dec 29, 2017 10:39 am

We have placed a link test the distance is 101 meters the link is dropped 4 time in 3 days with light rain. We have a meteo station close to the installation that measured 23mm/hour of rain.during last drop.

With no rain the singnal is 80
 
vlatko
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Re: wAP 60G experience

Fri Dec 29, 2017 11:00 am

please give us details about link drop during a rain. Has it preceded degradation or is just link interrupt with the beginning of rain.if the smaller rain interrupts the link to 100 meters it will be great problem. I have already mentioned several times to the mikrotik how to assess the problem if we can not read signal rssi on devices.
 
antonsb
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Re: wAP 60G experience

Fri Dec 29, 2017 11:37 am

We have placed a link test the distance is 101 meters the link is dropped 4 time in 3 days with light rain. We have a meteo station close to the installation that measured 23mm/hour of rain.during last drop.

With no rain the singnal is 80
Please upgrade to latest version to support rates under MCS4 and check alignment.

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