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Pigsfoot
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WAP60G 60 Ghz P2P Range and deployment advice

Mon May 07, 2018 1:36 pm

Hi All,

We ( the company i work for ) build and deploy public WiFi networks in the UK. The systems we build use 5 Ghz ( NSM5 ) radios to create a network around the location with no link being longer than 300 Mtrs. At each point there will be a switch, AP and generally 2 x NSM5's.

As we deploy so much 5 Ghz kit at a single place it is becoming more and more difficult to find enough channels that are not already clogged up and get decent speeds. This is magnified when we come across DFS :-(

So, for some time we have been looking into the possibilities of using 60 Ghz, trouble is we have never found anything small enough or cheap enough to use... that is until i came across the new WAP60G. https://mikrotik.com/product/wap_60g

The reason why i need something so small is because we generally use Highways equipment to install onto, i.e. Street Lights and CCTV Columns so having a nice big dish mount isn't going to work.

What i'm interested in is if anyone has used he kit, ideally in the UK due to the weather we get and also at what distances

What i am looking for is to deploy 60 Ghz P2P links at around 300 Mtr distances, to run as fast as possible and keep the link up in bad weather conditions. A single deployment for us would include around 50 radios and from what i have read based on the range of the kit, the channel separation and the distinct lack of 60 Ghz in use we should be able to get good ( fast ) connections.

The one thing that concerns me is the range ( for the WAP60G ) ... in the documentation it suggests 200 mtrs which is close but not quite close enough.

If anyone has any feedback they would be happy to share I'm all ears.If we think 300 mtrs is a possibility then next stage is to get some kit and deploy it into the field.

Thanks..
 
antonsb
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Re: WAP60G 60 Ghz P2P Range and deployment advice

Mon May 07, 2018 3:58 pm

300 meter stable connection currently is impossible with this device.
 
Pigsfoot
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Re: WAP60G 60 Ghz P2P Range and deployment advice

Mon May 07, 2018 4:33 pm

Thanks @antonsb

Appreciate the response, is the limitation due to hardware and the antenna size / output or a software issue. I would like to stay with the Mikrotik platform as we use all your equipment for our routers and occasional AP.

The reason for asking is i am interested in getting a couple to test with but if the physical device is never going to be able to reach 300 mtrs there is no point, however if its a software issue then I'm happy to play with the current capability and update as required.

If the issue is hardware related, I'm not sure if can you say or not but is Mikrotik likely to ever release a slightly larger radio that is capable of 300 mtrs or even 500 ( to be safe ) but for my application i wouldn't be able to ever have anything bigger than an NSM5.

Many Thanks.
 
antonsb
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Re: WAP60G 60 Ghz P2P Range and deployment advice

Mon May 07, 2018 4:46 pm

RBLHGG-60ad kit has larger antenna and will provide distance up to 1500 m. Maybe this is suitable for Your needs?
In future we plan to expand 60GHz lineup.
 
Pigsfoot
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Re: WAP60G 60 Ghz P2P Range and deployment advice

Mon May 07, 2018 4:52 pm

The LHGG-60ad kit would be perfect if it was about as big as a NanoStation... sadly for my application its just to big. I need something small enough to fit 2 or 3 radios into a single lamp post.

I am however deploying this kit in a week or so's time for a customers P2P link between two warehouses... my first 60 Ghz install :-)

Good to know the product range is going to be expand upon, still early days i guess for 60 Ghz in the price bracket we are talking about. I'll keep my eye on new product development and watch out for something that fits our needs.

Thanks for all your help.
 
antonsb
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Re: WAP60G 60 Ghz P2P Range and deployment advice

Mon May 07, 2018 6:21 pm

You can also use combo of wAP60G as AP and multiple LHG60G as CPE. I have posted a table of distances in other thread, but You can expect full speed at distances close to 700 m.
 
Pigsfoot
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Re: WAP60G 60 Ghz P2P Range and deployment advice

Mon May 07, 2018 6:30 pm

Oh that is interesting... Just so i understand you correctly...if i mounted a LHG60G somewhere central and had several WAP60G's all in separate locations with clear line of sight back to the LHG60G in a P2MP setup the WAP60G's would work at a distance of 700 Mtrs ?

Would you say 700 mtrs is a maximum distance or could you push it even further ? and could i expect full bandwidth at 1 Gb at that distance ?

I guess i could then extend the range or expand the coverage by using multiple LHC60G's

If i understand you correctly... i can work with that.

Thanks
 
antonsb
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Re: WAP60G 60 Ghz P2P Range and deployment advice

Mon May 07, 2018 10:34 pm

wAP 60G should be used as the central unit and multiple LHG60G as clients. With a single connected client, in this scenario, we could reach distances over 900 m, but for stability, we recommend not to exceed 700 m. We are still working on those units and hopefully, there will be even more improvements coming soon.
 
Pigsfoot
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Re: WAP60G 60 Ghz P2P Range and deployment advice

Mon May 07, 2018 10:37 pm

Ah Ok then... unfortunately that doesn't help as its means the bigger kit needs to go client end which in my case could be a street light and would therefore be to big. Guess i'll have to wait until different hardware is developed.

Thanks for the assistance on this.
 
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Re: WAP60G 60 Ghz P2P Range and deployment advice

Tue May 08, 2018 8:13 pm

We tested a WAP60G at the office to link gatehouse to the main building. This link is 50m and disconnects with the slightest sign of rain.

We replaced it with NSM5 again.

RBLHGG-60ad looks promising.

Also consider InfiNet's 60GHz equipment.

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk

 
antonsb
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Re: WAP60G 60 Ghz P2P Range and deployment advice

Tue May 08, 2018 11:42 pm

This does not sound very plausible, there is something clearly wrong with the devices or with configuration. Please contact support and let us help you solve this issue.
 
gr0mit
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Re: WAP60G 60 Ghz P2P Range and deployment advice

Fri May 11, 2018 12:53 am

Do bear in mind that as far as I am aware, the mikrotik 60ghz wireless wire is not legal in the UK for outdoor use...
Best Regards

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Pigsfoot
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Re: WAP60G 60 Ghz P2P Range and deployment advice

Fri May 11, 2018 10:31 am

@gr0mit

That's an interesting comment, what makes you say that.

From what i have read Ofcom officially released the 60 Ghz earlier this year on a free license basis and a Lite license for 64 to 68 i think it was.. may need to check that though. There are a couple of sites in the UK you are not allowed to operate within or to close to and i think you need a 30 dBi antenna.Other than that i haven't read any thing that says you are not allowed to use it outside.

Feel free to correct me if i'm wrong.

Thanks...
 
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Bergante
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Re: WAP60G 60 Ghz P2P Range and deployment advice

Fri May 11, 2018 12:01 pm

Do bear in mind that as far as I am aware, the mikrotik 60ghz wireless wire is not legal in the UK for outdoor use...
It can be used license free in the UK.

https://www.ofcom.org.uk/__data/assets/ ... tement.pdf

From the conclusions:
3.18 Having considered the responses Ofcom has decided to proceed with the release of the 59 – 64 GHz band for Fixed Wireless Systems and to combine this with the existing 57 – 59 GHz band under one overall licence exempt authorisation approach for FWS. This policy is also consistent with Ofcom’s overall licence exempt framework policy published in December 2007 and Ofcom’s statutory duties under the Communications Act 2003 and WT Act. The only change we have made from the proposals set out in our consultation document is to include a 30 dBi minimum antenna gain into the technical conditions, which we consider will not impact on the viability of FWS use.

3.19 The 60 GHz Spectrum will be available for FWS applications across the UK on a licence exempt basis, subject to technical conditions and with the exception of three small geographical areas to protect MoD radiolocation systems against likely harmful interference from outdoor FWS applications.
 
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nickshore
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Re: WAP60G 60 Ghz P2P Range and deployment advice

Fri May 11, 2018 12:23 pm

Currently only available in PtP and needs a minimum antenna gain of 30dBi, which the WAP60 does not have.

Ofcom have recently consulted on 60GHz PtMP usage and micro cells, (lower antenna gain requirements) but they have not yet issued any actions/changes.

Nick
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nest
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Re: WAP60G 60 Ghz P2P Range and deployment advice

Fri May 11, 2018 12:36 pm

3.19 The 60 GHz Spectrum will be available for FWS applications across the UK on a licence exempt basis, subject to technical conditions and with the exception of three small geographical areas to protect MoD radiolocation systems against likely harmful interference from outdoor FWS applications.
The Wireless Wire (WAP60G) does NOT comply with UK regulations for outdoor use, either PtP or PtMP as it does not comply with the relevant technical conditions (see my highlighting above). The most important ones are, 1) The Document of Conformity is quoting an incorrect ETSI for outdoor PtP usage and 2) the antenna gain is not in excess of 30dBi. They might be able to fix problem 1 by having a Test House test the device and issue a certificate for the correct ETSI for outdoor use, but they can't fix problem 2.

Therefore feel free to install these WAP60G's indoors as much as you like in the UK, as they DO comply with the regulations as an indoors wireless device.

The Wireless Wire Dish on the other hand is compliant to Ofcom's Interface Requirements and can be freely installed outdoors for PtP use. It cannot be used PtMP (yet?). If Ofcom change the regulations after the current consultation period on this band, then it may be permitted. But as it stands at the moment, PtMP mode is not legal in the UK.
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Re: WAP60G 60 Ghz P2P Range and deployment advice

Fri May 11, 2018 3:26 pm

The Wireless Wire (WAP60G) does NOT comply with UK regulations for outdoor use, either PtP or PtMP as it does not comply with the relevant technical conditions (see my highlighting above). The most important ones are, 1) The Document of Conformity is quoting an incorrect ETSI for outdoor PtP usage and 2) the antenna gain is not in excess of 30dBi. They might be able to fix problem 1 by having a Test House test the device and issue a certificate for the correct ETSI for outdoor use, but they can't fix problem 2.
Ouch! That's true, I stand corrected! My apologies. I didn't notice that significant detail.

However, with the last firmware updates Mikrotik configured narrower radiation lobes with higher gain. I had to reduce power for my 30 m link. Maybe they should have the units retested with the new firmware.
 
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nest
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Re: WAP60G 60 Ghz P2P Range and deployment advice

Fri May 11, 2018 10:33 pm

part of the technical requirements for all outdoor usage in the UK is a 30dBi antenna. Firmware upgrades can't fix that. As a member of UKWISPA we took part in the Ofcom consultation process. The case was made that the 30dBi antenna limit should be removed. We can only wait and see what Ofcom decides.
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Pigsfoot
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Re: WAP60G 60 Ghz P2P Range and deployment advice

Sat May 12, 2018 1:04 pm

I don't suppose anyone has any info on a similar size device to the WAP60G ( Mikrotik, UBNT or any other manufacturer ) that will have a 30 dBi antenna and is therefore outdoor compliant. Doesn't necessarily have to be available today but would be great to know something is in the pipeline.

@Nest ( Ron ) having been to a couple of your UBNT training sessions at LinITX and knowing how extremely knowledgeable you and a the level of input you have with MikroTik and UBNT i bet you know something... :wink:
 
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nest
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Re: WAP60G 60 Ghz P2P Range and deployment advice

Sat May 12, 2018 1:24 pm

Thank you for your praise. Always good to get positive feedback.
Antenna gain is directly proportional to aperture size. Therefore to get a higher gain antenna, you need a bigger antenna. You can make some extra gain by increasing the efficiency of a dish antenna but you’re not going to get much more than a couple of dB better. For example using a smoother surface on the dish. Less bolt or screw heads. Less obstructions. A better more directional feed point that illuminates the whole of the dish but no more.
MikroTik could in theory make a smaller dish than the Wireless Wire Dish and obtain 30dBi minimum gain by improving the feed and supporting arms or coming up with a whole new design like the DiscLite but despite our excellent contacts within MikroTik there is a rule I’ve learnt in life. Don’t bite the hand that feeds you. I have only once accidentally publicised information on here I was given in confidence and I still regret it. So if I did know what plans they have in the pipe line, I wouldn’t say.
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nest
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Re: WAP60G 60 Ghz P2P Range and deployment advice

Sat May 12, 2018 1:35 pm

However, with the last firmware updates Mikrotik configured narrower radiation lobes with higher gain. I had to reduce power for my 30 m link. Maybe they should have the units retested with the new firmware.
They’ve managed roughly 3dB more gain from tweaking the antenna beam forming algorithm. Therefore they’ve gained about 6dB in total, which doubles the distance. The WAP60G needs a LOT more dBi gain improvement to reach 30! It’s not going to happen.
However, we’re hoping that Ofcom will remove the 30dBi antenna requirement.
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Pigsfoot
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Re: WAP60G 60 Ghz P2P Range and deployment advice

Sat May 12, 2018 1:42 pm

No worries Ron, i knew it was a cheeky question.. :D

I totally get what your saying re design being related to antenna size. Bit of a bugger for me as i need something no bigger than a NSM5 as we often mount 2 or maybe three to a single column

Image

Although we do tend to mount the kit a bit higher than that.... :lol:

In essence i am just trying to find something that removes the issues using 5 Ghz, i'm not actually that interested in increasing bandwidth... all i want is my own channels... :(
 
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Re: WAP60G 60 Ghz P2P Range and deployment advice

Mon May 14, 2018 11:06 am

However, with the last firmware updates Mikrotik configured narrower radiation lobes with higher gain. I had to reduce power for my 30 m link. Maybe they should have the units retested with the new firmware.
They’ve managed roughly 3dB more gain from tweaking the antenna beam forming algorithm. Therefore they’ve gained about 6dB in total, which doubles the distance. The WAP60G needs a LOT more dBi gain improvement to reach 30! It’s not going to happen.
However, we’re hoping that Ofcom will remove the 30dBi antenna requirement.
Thank you very much. I wasn't sure how much can be achieved with that antenna array. :)

Indeed it would make sense for Ofcom to relax those requirements a bit. The potential for harmful interference is still very low.

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