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InoX
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Re: ARM devices and NV2 protocol

Sat Feb 09, 2019 5:44 pm

A sector with 15 clients a/n/40mhz and the one I've tested is old single core .ac.
Under each picture you can find the protocol used.
Sadly in 802.11 is not stable and clients gets a lot of disconnections so I'm sticking with nstreme.
The conclusion is Mikrotik have lost speed in any protocol, a lot.
Just for fun.
Are the pictures showing your bandwidth tests on 802.11, NV2 and Nstrem in that order?
 
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honzam
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Re: ARM devices and NV2 protocol

Sat Feb 09, 2019 6:29 pm

I remember when the fastest was nstreme, then NV2 and the worst was 802.11
Today it's exactly the opposite we not need :(
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networkfudge
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Re: ARM devices and NV2 protocol

Sat Feb 09, 2019 10:08 pm

A sector with 15 clients a/n/40mhz and the one I've tested is old single core .ac.
Under each picture you can find the protocol used.
Sadly in 802.11 is not stable and clients gets a lot of disconnections so I'm sticking with nstreme.
The conclusion is Mikrotik have lost speed in any protocol, a lot.
Just for fun.
Are the pictures showing your bandwidth tests on 802.11, NV2 and Nstrem in that order?
Yes look at the image names
MTCNA MTCWE MTCRE MTCINE MTCTCE UWBS UWBA
 
WirelessRudy
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Re: ARM devices and NV2 protocol

Sat Feb 09, 2019 10:19 pm

A sector with 15 clients a/n/40mhz and the one I've tested is old single core .ac.
Under each picture you can find the protocol used.
Sadly in 802.11 is not stable and clients gets a lot of disconnections so I'm sticking with nstreme.
The conclusion is Mikrotik have lost speed in any protocol, a lot.
Just for fun.
Don't know, by your picture it shows 802.11 is by far the best. And stable. Jitter is the same as the rest and jitter is a measurement of the variation in ping times.

I have now some 50% of my AP running on 802.11 and see a massive increase in speed of users connected. It actually doesn't matter if these clients are all 'n' or predominantly 'n' or all 'ac'.
Throughput is highest on 802.11. But nstreme follows close I must say.
I see no more disconnects in 802.11 then in NV2 or nstreme. But it depends a bit on th eAP. I have 2 AP's that actually see a better nstreme, but slightly. And one AP that gives best result in NV2. Don't know why.

I did a pingplotter test towards several client antenas and had that run for days. Only during times of heave overall usage (overall = all clients on the network) I see higher ping times. But independent of the protocol. But clients speeds are much higher, so those that watch IPTV get higher bursts and leave the network more free then in NV2.

No, the more I work with it and compare the more confidence I get in using 802.11ac as the main protocol for Mikrotik P2MP...
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Rudy R. Puister

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Re: ARM devices and NV2 protocol

Sun Feb 10, 2019 3:52 am

A sector with 15 clients a/n/40mhz and the one I've tested is old single core .ac.
Under each picture you can find the protocol used.
Sadly in 802.11 is not stable and clients gets a lot of disconnections so I'm sticking with nstreme.
The conclusion is Mikrotik have lost speed in any protocol, a lot.
Just for fun.
Don't know, by your picture it shows 802.11 is by far the best. And stable. Jitter is the same as the rest and jitter is a measurement of the variation in ping times.

I have now some 50% of my AP running on 802.11 and see a massive increase in speed of users connected. It actually doesn't matter if these clients are all 'n' or predominantly 'n' or all 'ac'.
Throughput is highest on 802.11. But nstreme follows close I must say.
I see no more disconnects in 802.11 then in NV2 or nstreme. But it depends a bit on th eAP. I have 2 AP's that actually see a better nstreme, but slightly. And one AP that gives best result in NV2. Don't know why.

I did a pingplotter test towards several client antenas and had that run for days. Only during times of heave overall usage (overall = all clients on the network) I see higher ping times. But independent of the protocol. But clients speeds are much higher, so those that watch IPTV get higher bursts and leave the network more free then in NV2.

No, the more I work with it and compare the more confidence I get in using 802.11ac as the main protocol for Mikrotik P2MP...
That's exactly why I asked, since the statements was "Sadly in 802.11 is not stable and clients gets a lot of disconnections so I'm sticking with nstreme"
From my experience, as Ruby says, 802.11 with rts+cts works best with these ARM ac devices. They are somehow not working well on NV2.
In Nstreme they work well (very stable), but as nstreme protocol limits is reached at ~110-120Mbit it's mostly overcome with 802.11ac. So far, 802.11ac on ARM devices is the best choice. My opinion.
 
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Re: ARM devices and NV2 protocol

Sun Feb 10, 2019 12:39 pm

So far, 802.11ac on ARM devices is the best choice. My opinion.
My APs are mostly netmetal (mipsbe AC) and my CPEs are typically LHG XL (mipsbe N)
I use NV2 with dynamic downlink of 70/80% and 20Mhz channels

To be fair to Mikrotik, since the couple of changes they made in 2018 our bandwidth per sector shot up from 30-40mbits to 70-80mbits.
This is on par with what we are getting with UBNT AC PRISM APs with Litebeam AC stations, although with Mikrotik we are not having AC stations (this is sadly because of LHG AC problems with NV2!)

So NV2 is currently very happy with 10-20 N clients per netmetal sector on 20mhz channel and I (still) have the tower space AND spectrum to accommodate more as we grow. Yes AC with its denser modulations can add a bit more throughput, but I'm scared to start adding ARM AC CPEs to my network which a) will cross out nv2 as an option and b)may or may not cause me glitches and problems with the other wireless protocols, especially considering that will be combining three different chips (mipsbe, mipsbe-ac and arm-ac)

To conclude, for now our motto is: Better the devil you know than the devil you don't!

If Mikrotik release a NetMetal ARM which would work PERFECTLY with LHG XL AC and GOOD ENOUGH with N clients, that would give us a viable upgrade path for our networks.

Anyone from Mikrotik listening?
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WirelessRudy
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Re: ARM devices and NV2 protocol

Mon Feb 11, 2019 1:29 am

So far, 802.11ac on ARM devices is the best choice. My opinion.
My APs are mostly netmetal (mipsbe AC) and my CPEs are typically LHG XL (mipsbe N)
I use NV2 with dynamic downlink of 70/80% and 20Mhz channels

To be fair to Mikrotik, since the couple of changes they made in 2018 our bandwidth per sector shot up from 30-40mbits to 70-80mbits.
This is on par with what we are getting with UBNT AC PRISM APs with Litebeam AC stations, although with Mikrotik we are not having AC stations (this is sadly because of LHG AC problems with NV2!)

So NV2 is currently very happy with 10-20 N clients per netmetal sector on 20mhz channel and I (still) have the tower space AND spectrum to accommodate more as we grow. Yes AC with its denser modulations can add a bit more throughput, but I'm scared to start adding ARM AC CPEs to my network which a) will cross out nv2 as an option and b)may or may not cause me glitches and problems with the other wireless protocols, especially considering that will be combining three different chips (mipsbe, mipsbe-ac and arm-ac)

To conclude, for now our motto is: Better the devil you know than the devil you don't!

If Mikrotik release a NetMetal ARM which would work PERFECTLY with LHG XL AC and GOOD ENOUGH with N clients, that would give us a viable upgrade path for our networks.

Anyone from Mikrotik listening?
Most of my AP's are Netmetals too. But I have one a Basebox 5 with only 'n' clients connected but even that one runs way better in 802.11'n'
Then I have several Omnitiks 5 ac (=mipsbe) with mainly arm devices connected but I see no differences between these mipsbe AP's as the NetMetals.
The only difference is the Omnitiks are working in what they are 360 degrees where the NetMetals all have RF-Element's horns as sectors.

I really see no differences between the different kind of chipsets. It's all about fine tuning and finding the proper frequencies.
And the good thing of 'ac' is you can work with 40Mhz or even 80Mhz where the 'secondairy channels can have some overlap with other AP's for some of the clients. These clients just avoid to use the overlapped channel while the rest of the network can still work with the full bandwidth.
I have now some of my AP's set to 80Mhz wide channels and although there is overlap with other remote AP's I see the speeds go up to the clients and by setting some lower MCS rate fixed I even get better CCQ!

But yeah, finetuning your P2MP is the hot word here. And one new AP or frequency shift from a competitor can throw all your hours of finetuning overboard ..... :?
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Rudy R. Puister

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mfr476
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Re: ARM devices and NV2 protocol

Wed Feb 13, 2019 9:08 pm

my provider has told me that there is no more ap with mipsbe. It is true? I have not bought anything for months and they call me worried. I recently changed all my arm for other manufacturer. I would like to know if mikrotik is going to solve the problem or I have to throw all the arm
 
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Re: ARM devices and NV2 protocol

Wed Feb 13, 2019 9:25 pm

But yeah, finetuning your P2MP is the hot word here. And one new AP or frequency shift from a competitor can throw all your hours of finetuning overboard ..... :?
Yes its a never ending battle in p2mp. You are very lucky you can get good results on 80mhz. I don't have 80mhz of clean, contiguous spectrum in any direction (I define clean as not picking up other signals in the -80s or stronger). I very rarely get a better result on 40mhz than 20mhz! But even when I do I don't use it unless I really need the extra bandwidth, because it's more chance of fucking up (as per your original point!)
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WirelessRudy
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Re: ARM devices and NV2 protocol

Thu Feb 14, 2019 3:45 am

But yeah, finetuning your P2MP is the hot word here. And one new AP or frequency shift from a competitor can throw all your hours of finetuning overboard ..... :?
Yes its a never ending battle in p2mp. You are very lucky you can get good results on 80mhz. I don't have 80mhz of clean, contiguous spectrum in any direction (I define clean as not picking up other signals in the -80s or stronger). I very rarely get a better result on 40mhz than 20mhz! But even when I do I don't use it unless I really need the extra bandwidth, because it's more chance of fucking up (as per your original point!)
According your threshold my environment is not so much different. I have problems finding 40Mhz of 'clear' spectrum, let alone 80Mhz.
But you need to have a good knowledge of you physical environment and the location or your towers, your clients in respect to other towers and their sector antenas.
The good thing of 'ac' protocol is it has some sort of 'interference avoidance' system build in and with the combination of looking for relative high signal strengths. (I try to go for -40, -50 is acceptable, -55 just the limit and beyond that I am either looking for a bigger client antena or to find another solution....)

One of the 'nice' tools you can work with in 802.11 modus is that you can run a scan from both the client or the AP while the connection doesn't get lost.
On an AP looking for its best frequency it is not enough to look for free space '"at" the AP. You also need to know what the client's are been hammered at.
It can well be that where some canals only hit the AP with say -78 or -85 at the client the same 'alien' AP might come in with -50 or worse! So better look somewhere else or this client will see lots of problems. Do this for at least two of the clients spread over your working sector.
It's a lot of work and yeah, hence I work a lot in the middle of the night...
An AP takes several hours to do at times and I have some 40....... meaning that by the time I finished the last, I can start doing the first again.... a never ending battle...
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Rudy R. Puister

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WirelessRudy
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Re: ARM devices and NV2 protocol

Thu Feb 14, 2019 3:48 am

my provider has told me that there is no more ap with mipsbe. It is true? I have not bought anything for months and they call me worried. I recently changed all my arm for other manufacturer. I would like to know if mikrotik is going to solve the problem or I have to throw all the arm
All NetMetals, the preferred AP device, are still mipsbe and widely for sale...
https://mikrotik.com/products/group/wireless-systems

Why consider to ditch the arm devices? I have some 30% of these now in my network and have no more problems with these then the mipsbe devices..... and that is very little.
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Rudy R. Puister

WISP operator based on MT routerboard & ROS.
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