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Redmor
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802.11ax

Thu Jan 31, 2019 9:45 pm

Is MikroTik planning to make some new antennas with 802.11ax protocol?
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mistry7
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Re: 802.11ax

Thu Jan 31, 2019 10:45 pm

Yes sure, you can become the next unpaid Beta Tester

ARM Hardware is now avaible for 13 Month, and does not work as aspected....
 
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Re: 802.11ax

Thu Jan 31, 2019 11:49 pm

ARM Hardware is now avaible for 13 Month, and does not work as aspected....
I think longer...
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normis
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Re: 802.11ax

Fri Feb 01, 2019 3:34 pm

ARM works very well. The only issue I know of, is lack of full compatibility with legacy Nv2 protocol.
Any other problems?
No answer to your question? How to write posts
 
blingblouw
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Re: 802.11ax

Fri Feb 01, 2019 3:44 pm

Guess a lot changes in 7 years

"you can go with either of them, nstreme and nv2 is going to be faster than vanilla 802.11, and if you are using only RouterOS wifi clients, that is good option to choose.

the fastest of all three would be NV2 in normal conditions."

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=66740&p=339727#p339727
 
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Re: 802.11ax

Fri Feb 01, 2019 3:45 pm

yes, this is what the word "legacy" means. it means we added nv2 to improve 802.11n. It was not designed with ARM or 802.11ac in mind. These new systems have no benefits, as they are already superior.
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pcunite
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Re: 802.11ax

Fri Feb 01, 2019 3:58 pm

Guess a lot changes in 7 years

It is fair for MikroTik to fix an issue with a standard that later gets updated and moves on past the fix.
 
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Re: 802.11ax

Fri Feb 01, 2019 4:33 pm

Guess a lot changes in 7 years

It is fair for MikroTik to fix an issue with a standard that later gets updated and moves on past the fix.

Totally agree. I just think that documentation needs to be updated to reflect that
 
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Re: 802.11ax

Fri Feb 01, 2019 5:35 pm

ARM works very well. The only issue I know of, is lack of full compatibility with legacy Nv2 protocol.
Any other problems?
Test 2x ARM Bridge. Not stable & slower than MIPSBE.
 
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Re: 802.11ax

Fri Feb 01, 2019 6:30 pm

ARM works very well. The only issue I know of, is lack of full compatibility with legacy Nv2 protocol.
Any other problems?
Test 2x ARM Bridge. Not stable & slower than MIPSBE.
For us the same, ping lags on arm Based CPE, VoIP not possible
 
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honzam
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Re: 802.11ax

Fri Feb 01, 2019 8:41 pm

ARM works very well. The only issue I know of, is lack of full compatibility with legacy Nv2 protocol.
Any other problems?
Test 2x ARM Bridge. Not stable & slower than MIPSBE.
The same problem. NV2 is slower and have other issues. Nstreme is also slow. Best is 802.11, but this is not suitable for p2mp :( high ping, jitter and lossability
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Re: 802.11ax

Fri Feb 01, 2019 10:25 pm

ARM works very well. The only issue I know of, is lack of full compatibility with legacy Nv2 protocol.
Any other problems?
Test 2x ARM Bridge. Not stable & slower than MIPSBE.
The same problem. NV2 is slower and have other issues. Nstreme is also slow. Best is 802.11, but this is not suitable for p2mp :( high ping, jitter and lossability
But it looks like it is the "new" Mikrotik Quality....
 
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Re: 802.11ax

Fri Feb 01, 2019 10:27 pm

ARM works very well. The only issue I know of, is lack of full compatibility with legacy Nv2 protocol.
Any other problems?
Test 2x ARM Bridge. Not stable & slower than MIPSBE.
The same problem. NV2 is slower and have other issues. Nstreme is also slow. Best is 802.11, but this is not suitable for p2mp :( high ping, jitter and lossability
Yes, I have same problem with 802.11. Always same (ptp and ptmp)
 
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Re: 802.11ax

Sat Feb 02, 2019 2:31 pm

Mikrotik should not allow nv2 to be selected on 802.11ac hardware.

It is clearly broken, why even give the customer the option of being disappointed
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Re: 802.11ax

Sat Feb 02, 2019 4:58 pm

MikroTik should not allow nv2 to be selected on 802.11ac hardware. It is clearly broken, why even give the customer the option of being disappointed?

They need a user experience manager who thinks about these things. Hard to find super techie and yet a client advocate in the same person.
 
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Re: 802.11ax

Sun Feb 03, 2019 1:53 am

If nv2 compatibility vs. older hw is the issue, why not just call it nv3, change the timings and whatever is needed for it to work on ARM and clearly state it only works on the new hardware and it's incompatible? If the compatibility is in the way, fine... but at least have a new protocol that's stable between ARM devices.
And if designing new protocol is too hard for P2MP, at least have one for P2P links that works...
 
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Re: 802.11ax

Sun Feb 03, 2019 5:02 pm

There is a (big) arm/nv2 thread already.
This thread is about 802.11ax. Would like to hear about it, too.
 
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Re: 802.11ax

Mon Feb 04, 2019 7:16 pm

You can buy 802.11ax routers on the shelf in retail stores already, yet zero communication from Mikrotik about their timeline... this is rather worrying.
 
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Re: 802.11ax

Tue Feb 05, 2019 11:51 am

You can buy 802.11ax routers on the shelf in retail stores already, yet zero communication from Mikrotik about their timeline... this is rather worrying.
It's only one month until the EU MUM. Maybe they will announce some 802.11ax gear.
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Re: 802.11ax

Tue Feb 05, 2019 12:02 pm

It's only one month until the EU MUM. Maybe they will announce some 802.11ax gear.
Holding your breath will only help you to suffocate :wink:
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Re: 802.11ax

Tue Feb 05, 2019 12:11 pm

If nv2 compatibility vs. older hw is the issue, why not just call it nv3, change the timings and whatever is needed for it to work on ARM and clearly state it only works on the new hardware and it's incompatible? If the compatibility is in the way, fine... but at least have a new protocol that's stable between ARM devices.
And if designing new protocol is too hard for P2MP, at least have one for P2P links that works...
What we need is NOT yet another incompatible P2MP link protocol, but implementation of some standard or at least interworking with what other manufacturers (especially UBNT) do.
 
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Re: 802.11ax

Tue Feb 05, 2019 12:16 pm

I heard that they are releasing new version of RoS with airmax compatibility on 1 Apr 2019
 
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Re: 802.11ax

Tue Feb 05, 2019 12:21 pm

I heard that they are releasing new version of RoS with airmax compatibility on 1 Apr 2019
+1 ;-)
 
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Re: 802.11ax

Tue Feb 05, 2019 4:10 pm

I heard that they are releasing new version of RoS with airmax compatibility on 1 Apr 2019
That must be RouterOS v7 !!! :D :D
 
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Re: 802.11ax

Tue Feb 05, 2019 4:43 pm

I heard that they are releasing new version of RoS with airmax compatibility on 1 Apr 2019
That must be RouterOS v7 !!! :D :D
Codename: Unicorn ;-)

For sure .ax will be earlier. Think back: MT was the first with .ac.
 
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Re: 802.11ax

Tue Feb 05, 2019 4:48 pm

To do anything with P2MP protocols we need compatibility between manufacturers, at least between UBNT and MikroTik.
Now we can do only standard 802.11 because there always is at least a MikroTik client on UBNT AP and vice-versa.
 
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Re: 802.11ax

Wed Feb 06, 2019 3:01 pm

LOL... Good luck with that, I'm sure manufacturers are really thrilled to publish all their secrets so they can make less money... this is simply not going to happen.
Only possibility is if TDMA is part of the future official 802.11something specification.
And it's a good question why this wasn't done long time ago... it's not like TDMA protocols like nstreme, NV2, AirMax are new.
 
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Re: 802.11ax

Wed Feb 06, 2019 3:20 pm

LOL... Good luck with that, I'm sure manufacturers are really thrilled to publish all their secrets so they can make less money... this is simply not going to happen.
Only possibility is if TDMA is part of the future official 802.11something specification.
And it's a good question why this wasn't done long time ago... it's not like TDMA protocols like nstreme, NV2, AirMax are new.
802.11ax claims to do the job:
https://www.qualcomm.com/solutions/netw ... es/80211ax

ofdma gives frequency slices to cpes
Uplink resource scheduler handles media access (So what is different to TDMA).

So the TDMA/compatibility discussion might be gone ...
 
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Re: 802.11ax

Wed Feb 06, 2019 3:21 pm

We had the same issue in amateur packet radio and it was solved in the nineties. The solution was called DAMA and I think it is much like NV2 and AirMax, maybe less a few of the special optimizations.
It is unbelievable that 25 years later there still is no 802.11xx standard that covers this and can be implemented by every manufacturer.
Then at least you can have rudimentary collision avoidance on a P2MP link, even when the manufacturer-specific protocol works a bit better.

Does 802.11AX still not include such a system? I would think that an "all new High-Efficiency Wireless protocol" would... the "collisions due to hidden terminal" problem should be present even in indoor networks at increasingly higher frequencies...
 
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Re: 802.11ax

Wed Feb 06, 2019 3:25 pm

We had the same issue in amateur packet radio and it was solved in the nineties. The solution was called DAMA and I think it is much like NV2 and AirMax, maybe less a few of the special optimizations.
It is unbelievable that 25 years later there still is no 802.11xx standard that covers this and can be implemented by every manufacturer.
Then at least you can have rudimentary collision avoidance on a P2MP link, even when the manufacturer-specific protocol works a bit better.

Does 802.11AX still not include such a system? I would think that an "all new High-Efficiency Wireless protocol" would... the "collisions due to hidden terminal" problem should be present even in indoor networks at increasingly higher frequencies...
It does. Look my post one minute before your's.
 
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Re: 802.11ax

Wed Feb 06, 2019 3:28 pm

the "collisions due to hidden terminal" problem should be present even in indoor networks at increasingly higher frequencies...

Those networks might still be wireless, but will become more and more NFC to a point where it won't be possible to have any obstacle between radio partners (except for their housings) and thus there won't be any "hidden terminal" due to lack of signal coverage.
BR,
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Re: 802.11ax

Wed Feb 06, 2019 3:33 pm

It does. Look my post one minute before your's.
DAMA does not require any special arrangements at the radio layer. It just polls the clients (at the link layer protocol) in a ring to ask them if they want to send data.
It is my suspicion that both NV2 and AirMax do the same thing. However as they both invented their own protocol they aren't mutually compatible.

Of course in a new system one can solve it at the radio layer, but the polling solution can be used with existing radio hardware.
 
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Re: 802.11ax

Wed Feb 06, 2019 3:36 pm

Those networks might still be wireless, but will become more and more NFC to a point where it won't be possible to have any obstacle between radio partners (except for their housings) and thus there won't be any "hidden terminal" due to lack of signal coverage.
I thought the movement is towards beamforming accesspoints (with the associated advantages of MIMO) which means that all clients clearly hear the accesspoint, but do not hear eachother at all.
That is the same as with a P2MP outdoor link setup.
 
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Re: 802.11ax

Wed Feb 06, 2019 9:40 pm

Those networks might still be wireless, but will become more and more NFC to a point where it won't be possible to have any obstacle between radio partners (except for their housings) and thus there won't be any "hidden terminal" due to lack of signal coverage.
I thought the movement is towards beamforming accesspoints (with the associated advantages of MIMO) which means that all clients clearly hear the accesspoint, but do not hear eachother at all.
That is the same as with a P2MP outdoor link setup.
Yeah, beamforming is buzzword of the moment. However, there's still EIRP limitation and with all that free air pathloss increasing with frequency and specially with inability to penetrate or refract the obstacles (a moving human body can become a huge problem) ... I'm just not holding my breath.
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Re: 802.11ax

Thu Feb 07, 2019 8:06 am

We had the same issue in amateur packet radio and it was solved in the nineties. The solution was called DAMA and I think it is much like NV2 and AirMax, maybe less a few of the special optimizations.
It is unbelievable that 25 years later there still is no 802.11xx standard that covers this and can be implemented by every manufacturer.
Then at least you can have rudimentary collision avoidance on a P2MP link, even when the manufacturer-specific protocol works a bit better.

Does 802.11AX still not include such a system? I would think that an "all new High-Efficiency Wireless protocol" would... the "collisions due to hidden terminal" problem should be present even in indoor networks at increasingly higher frequencies...
It does. Look my post one minute before your's.
And you really believe that Mikrotik will support that feature from the beginning, there are so many things missing @ac Hardware, so don’t call for new Chipsets, they are not able to support them

Wave 1 Missings:
- Output Power Managment
- Spectral Scan
- Channel sizes

Wave 2 Missings:
- no wave 2 features available

What’s about 802.11k, 802.11r and 802.11v, we need that in the EU for every Wireless Network in
Government Places / Meeting Rooms etc
Ask Mikrotik for those features and you hear silence
At this point there is no future for Mikrotik Wireless, not Indoor and not Outdoor, only at
low cost markets
 
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Re: 802.11ax

Thu Feb 07, 2019 2:18 pm

This is quite troubling situation, as for WiFi4EU you need these features and no Mikrotik device supports them. So even if you love Mikrotik, you can't use it. And these are often big projects, paid partly by EU money. If Mikrotik had suitable device, they could sell good amount of them.
Instead all that money is spent on competitor products and as a result they get more R&D money to release even better products, meanwhile Mikrotik is stuck in the past with limited R&D budget unable to catch up. We can only hope it's actually not this bad...
 
Redmor
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Re: 802.11ax

Thu Feb 07, 2019 9:06 pm

Come on MikroTik support, at least tell us if you're planning something or not.
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mistry7
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Re: 802.11ax

Thu Feb 07, 2019 9:18 pm

Come on MikroTik support, at least tell us if you're planning something or not.
Normis wrote on other Topic that they develop new driver with wave 2 support, but we don’t no when it is available
 
Redmor
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Re: 802.11ax

Thu Feb 07, 2019 9:29 pm

I'd prefer to see ax based protocol than Wave 2 ac
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mistry7
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Re: 802.11ax

Thu Feb 07, 2019 10:16 pm

I'd prefer to see ax based protocol than Wave 2 ac
You want to get next Beta Tester, buy arm that’s Beta enough
 
Redmor
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Re: 802.11ax

Fri Feb 08, 2019 8:16 am

I only use ARMs as clients and I don't see any problem.
I have throughput problem even with mibsbe in some cases, especially for client upload, or with NetMetal + mANT I only get 50Mbps throughput when with other vendors I get 200Mbps, but I think it's a mANT problem.
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Re: 802.11ax

Fri Feb 08, 2019 8:45 am

I only use ARMs as clients and I don't see any problem.
I have throughput problem even with mibsbe in some cases, especially for client upload, or with NetMetal + mANT I only get 50Mbps throughput when with other vendors I get 200Mbps, but I think it's a mANT problem.
Just setup an Omnitik ac, connect some clients, and do a ping to the MISPBE Clients and the same time to the ARM Clients, Mode 802.11
You will See high Pings on ARM without any reason, impossible to deliver Voice Service over this Hardware.
 
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Re: 802.11ax

Fri Feb 08, 2019 2:54 pm

And whooop .... back to topic ;-)


@Normis Are you able to talk about 802.11ax ? At least what MUM to look at ....

There are chipsets of your suppliers out there: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IEEE_802.11ax#Silicon. So I guess you have something in your lab and as you did with 60GHz you might want to do some interesting move there ... hopefully
 
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Re: 802.11ax

Fri Feb 08, 2019 5:18 pm

Would be great if Mikrotik released at least minimalistic roadmap, something like: 802.11ax work in progress, expected ~2019Q3
Same for Wave2 and other features. No need to be more specific, just confirmation of "yes, we are really working on it".
This might be enough to delay investment and buying of competitors products. Currently you wait, and wait and wait and nothing is happening, no news.
So you end up buying other company products, only to see Mikrotik release it month later. In the end it only hurts the Mikrotik sales...
 
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Re: 802.11ax

Fri Feb 08, 2019 11:58 pm

+1 for this. Normis and colleagues at Mikrotik, we need a roadmap for wireless LAN products development for the near future. Mikrotik is my favorite and default goto device, but one can barely plan for the future as you guys hardly talk of what's in store for the future! It's by guesswork and keeping on hoping for the better. Put up a roadmap ASAP!!
 
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Re: 802.11ax

Fri Mar 08, 2019 6:54 pm

You can buy 802.11ax routers on the shelf in retail stores already, yet zero communication from Mikrotik about their timeline... this is rather worrying.
802.11ax isn't finalized yet.

You must be young.

The routers on the market are "draft" ax, as in public beta. Compatibility with the final product is not guaranteed.

https://searchnetworking.techtarget.com ... -late-2019
 
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Re: 802.11ax

Fri Mar 08, 2019 6:59 pm

I'd prefer to see ax based protocol than Wave 2 ac
ax is going to have better contention protocols and MUMIMO than ac, but not by much. Wave 2 with MUMIMO has that capability and the built in contention control may interfere with nstreme and nv2.

I imagine that ax is going to be a bit of a bear for MT to adapt to. Once they get it going it really does sound like a match made in heaven, however, it has so many WISP related features built in I believe it is going to cause them problems. They'll probably disable most of those features in the initial version and slowly roll out updates with hardware support for the built in contention control.
 
ste
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Re: 802.11ax

Fri Mar 08, 2019 7:23 pm

You can buy 802.11ax routers on the shelf in retail stores already, yet zero communication from Mikrotik about their timeline... this is rather worrying.
802.11ax isn't finalized yet.

You must be young.

The routers on the market are "draft" ax, as in public beta. Compatibility with the final product is not guaranteed.

https://searchnetworking.techtarget.com ... -late-2019
Most likely chipsets will do the job already:
https://searchnetworking.techtarget.com ... -late-2019

I am not realy young ;-) But we need some upgrades soon.
 
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Re: 802.11ax

Tue Apr 02, 2019 9:51 pm

ARM works very well. The only issue I know of, is lack of full compatibility with legacy Nv2 protocol.
Any other problems?
Normis - re: ARM works very well. The only issue I know of, is lack of full compatibility with legacy Nv2 protocol.

If Nv2 is a legacy protocol, then how about Mikrotik create a next generation TDMA protocol. Call it Nv3 or something.

North Idaho Tom Jones
 
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Re: 802.11ax

Tue Apr 02, 2019 9:58 pm

I hope there will be no next manufacturer-specific TMDA protocol but rather an established standard that all manufacturers follow and that allows inter-operation.

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