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r00t
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Re: 802.11ax

Wed Apr 03, 2019 4:53 am

For 802.11ax, there should be no need for any custom TDMA protocol, because standard itself already have what you can call NV2 on steroids: Not only it's TDMA, it can also assign different parts of spectrum to a different users for each timeslot... over multiple MIMO beams. And all this is handled by hardware chips, so with great precision and no requirements of main CPU to do the timing (and cause issues like with NV2 on ARM).
 
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Re: 802.11ax

Sat Apr 20, 2019 2:21 pm

please 802.11ax IOT is killing the network , even solar panels now clutter up the wifi
 
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zlobster
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Re: 802.11ax

Sat Apr 20, 2019 10:16 pm

I've been quietly following MT for many moons now, but I'm honestly clueless what is their business strategy. If this is thier tactics, they totally got it right, though!

Maybe MT focus on the last-mile and some backhaul? Maybe ISP edge? Or CPE/SOHO? Or maybe amateur projects? Or maybe stability before features? IDK...

All I now is that it's 2019!!! 5G is being deployed even in Eastern Europe, .ax mainstream devices are almost flooding the streets these days, IoT is already wrecking havoc in some places, more and more spectrum is being made available worldwide. And I'm just sitting here, waiting for MT to release some modems above Cat.4 or at least improve compatibility with other vendors' ones.
 
taduikis
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Re: 802.11ax

Mon Apr 22, 2019 2:46 pm

Guys, calm down. Chill a little. Forget MT Wireless. It’ll be like a breakup with a girl: hard, painful, expensive at first, much work, but you’ll get over it.
I did. I miss RouterOS superior management and features, since I hate web GUIs and limited console configuration options, I sweared much, missed mac-telnet, torch, l2 and l3 firewall, super flexible bridge and endless other configurations.. but at the end of the day what matters the most? Right! User experience!. As long as it works ok, you don’t really care any of that above mentioned stuff and have your chilled margaritas :) Let MT sell wireless eq in developing countries where 2Mbps are still called broadband. We need much more advanced stuff and get used that MT fail to deliver it, so let’s just jump the boat and stop bragging.. :) P.S. .ax alone won’t save them, IMHO.
 
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zlobster
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Re: 802.11ax

Mon Apr 22, 2019 7:05 pm

Guys, calm down. Chill a little. Forget MT Wireless. It’ll be like a breakup with a girl: hard, painful, expensive at first, much work, but you’ll get over it.
I did. I miss RouterOS superior management and features, since I hate web GUIs and limited console configuration options, I sweared much, missed mac-telnet, torch, l2 and l3 firewall, super flexible bridge and endless other configurations.. but at the end of the day what matters the most? Right! User experience!. As long as it works ok, you don’t really care any of that above mentioned stuff and have your chilled margaritas :) Let MT sell wireless eq in developing countries where 2Mbps are still called broadband. We need much more advanced stuff and get used that MT fail to deliver it, so let’s just jump the boat and stop bragging.. :) P.S. .ax alone won’t save them, IMHO.
This really made me ROFL. :lol:

It's sad but true, though. I now only use MT in a few very niche projects. Shame to watch such potential going to waste...
 
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Re: 802.11ax

Thu Jun 27, 2019 7:14 pm

Dear Forum, Cheers to All. May your packets never queue. I've personally not had any problems with ARM, or NV2 as long as you remember that NV2 doesn't work with poor link quality causing re-transmissions. In terms of the performance, it seems to work fine and the faster the processors the better. I really like the dual or quad core processors on the wireless wire and hoped every new unit had that much horsepower. I'm using all 802.11AC radios, and provide my clients with speeds between 10 and 40 mbps x 5, expecting to get no more than 15 clients per device PTMP. I can get 180mbps over the air all over town and 300mbps tcp on the bench one direction with AC. FDX is 100 TCP on bench, or 70mbps outdoors real world. I'm not sure what the rest of you are doing. There were some optimizations I learned early on (through the forum) to make things work right.. and it would be nice if mikrotik enabled some of those things by default as it seems to improve performance. Namely, the multicast helper(for NV2), interface queues (multi-queue ethernet default), ethernet flow control (on). I've been happy with the product and with NV2 compared with no NV2. the key with NV2 is that you can't hookup clients with crappy signal, anything better than -65 is ok, but I prefer all clients in the -59 or better range. I configure all nv2 aps with 70 down and 30 up, typically a 2 or 3 ms, and turn hardware retries down to 2 rather than 7. All minor improvements that boosted overall performance, in addition to a current and stable version of firmware and routerboard software. We have used the Mtik Dish and Netmetal AC to spotlight areas from the tower, for instance a neighborhood with 200 homes 20 KM away from the tower. Then I've started to use the DynaDish and i'm pretty happy with the beam width as it trims out the local interference better than the QRT. Re-transmissions kill NV2. I am very hopeful for 60 G, and have been using two links to backhaul from tower to tower downtown for over a year at 350meters with no issue. (I strapped one to an old Canopy dish, and omg the signal is perfect if you have the patience to align it.) I am hoping that the new wireless wire dish will get an integrated AX radio so we can have a primary and secondary radio set in each link to allow for redundancy to the tower. (hint hint, nudge, nudge, wink, wink) I eagerly await the integration of new standards for AX, to keep us small WISPS ahead of the curve. My clients and I are happy with Mikrotik products and the versatility of such a powerful OS. If MTIK can help with the Wireless wire dish + AX radio, us small wisps can actually provide reliable service for 50 clients from one site and 5 GB of over air TCP data, allowing us to compete in small neighborhoods with the existing Cable operators.
 
mfr476
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Re: 802.11ax

Fri Jun 28, 2019 9:56 pm

Please gif us your ap and cpe configuration It is incredible¡
 
taduikis
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Re: 802.11ax

Sat Jun 29, 2019 9:32 am

I'd like to address your comment in step-by-step:
- yes, you're right, the RouterOS is increadible OS with it's instruments, management, capabilities, etc.
- NV2 from ~6.42 has been updated and poor signal/quality clients no longer drag down the AP performance that much, also higher number of clients on AP doesn't reduce the overal capacity of AP anymore (though they still could have done better). Together with TDD ratio, I call this NV2 update one of the best since the NV2 introduction. It actually works.
- Hardware retransmits doesn't have an effect on NV2. It was mainly used back in the day for Nstreme.
- CPU power on AC CPEs is not everything. Higher performance CPUs mostly benefit on APs, especially when there's such magic like GPS, beamforming, TDMA scheduling in play. Newer generation MT CPEs with >=600 MHz CPUs are usually enough.
- Sure, if your network is all on AC, you get some benefit from that. But I bet you're on pretty clean RF over there, and furthermore you use some client-oriented devices for APs to filter out the interference. Because on MT, most advantages of AC come only in the form of higher modulations, which again are useless in noisy areas. You can use narrow beamwidth horn antennas to achieve the very same result and to have some more professional solution. We all think of various solutions to survive, so we've all been there, done what you said. And managed MikroTik wireless to live up to this day.

Now let's get back to reality.. In this 4G LTE and comming 5G era, we have no chance to compete with current MikroTik products. We simply cannot. Sure, 4G is not available in some areas, but soon it will be when equipment rotation will start happening. To buy us few more years we need seriously reworked AP devices from MikroTik. With backward compatibility of course. Because competition is already far ahead of MT, and they showed us that it can be done - MT's AC cannot outperform their 11N. And they also showed us that MT client devices are quite good and capable. So not everything is lost for MT yet. I remind MT few key features they somehow really need to work on: nearby channel filtering, proper GPS-sync for freq reuse, asymmetric fixed downlink/uplink datarate support, little more improvements in NV2 to call it NV3.
 
pe1chl
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Re: 802.11ax

Sat Jun 29, 2019 11:49 am

Now let's get back to reality.. In this 4G LTE and comming 5G era, we have no chance to compete with current MikroTik products.
With "we", you likely mean the small WISP that offers internet access to a couple of local paying customers using a WiFi network.
That is of course a niche application that works only in places where it can compete with better solutions like you mention.
In a highly populated area with large demands on internet bandwidth, such solutions never have been viable, no matter what make of equipment you use.

But it is not the only application for MikroTik equipment.
 
andyhenckel
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Re: 802.11ax

Tue Jul 09, 2019 11:42 pm

Code: Select all


I'm not so sure 5G cellular is going to be the "bees knees". Cell companies still have to roll out their hardware and i've got no faith in 5G given the current results of tests done in Dallas, LA, and Chicago. It won't work through windows or much very well and i'm anticipating they will be nothing more than little wifi hotspots and it's mostly hype to generate more sales. I've been installing for them for 14 years since 2.5 G cellular. They use overpriced hardware that doesn't seem to perform well enough to justify the additional expense. The only thing the cell companies have is the ability to output at 300 times more power than ISM band WISPS. They have a huge budget, make record profits, and i'm sure they are lobbying to try and take over the 5Ghz to 6gHz band to further create more of a monopolistic situation to boost bottom lines and reduce competition from highly motivated small WISPS.

There is a bunch of interference in this valley. In Reality there are only 3 major tower sites where everyone and their brother co-locates to serve the 70-100 thousand inhabitants of this 6x10 mile valley. Spectrum and other local wired ISPs have most of the market share. However there are many people on the fringe who cannot use the 4g Network to operate, have low speeds from other ISPs, and the major players have no intention of providing services to the outlying areas, ever - without massive grants funded by further inflation and debt. I personally own a network that I paid cash for every component, after working for Cell companies and building their infrastructure and being beaten down by soulless huge spreadsheet management firms posing as capable construction management firms that pinch most of the profit and shed any responsibility.

In any case 802.11AX will likely perform as well or close to the expected performance of a nokia or alcatel or huawai base station. For the same price we can deploy 20 times the sectors and throughput with Mtik.. We already have a 5G style link performance with 802.11AD for a fraction of the price. I really don't see much better performance from 4G than 802.11AC in terms of realized throughput. You pay the additional premium for better quality, higher powered components, with redundant power supplies, HVAC, and proprietary algorithms for TDMA that makes the medium more friendly and adds tons of latency. Since most providers enabled Unlimited access, at times my service is worse than dial up at times. Fact is that there are not enough towers, and they are not motivated financially enough to add outside of the core community centers.

If you've got a small WISP, build out a site, hold the root lease, then sublet to the Cell companies for 2K per month and you can win both ways. Or start putting fiber in the ground, and use your tower assets to fire licensed links to small fiber loops in select areas where you already have a handful of wireless clients.... that's what I'm doing. And it's been very successful. I do feel us Small WISPs can fill a niche, and many folks would rather support a local company anyway than promote the corporate grab for concentrated power.
 
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Re: 802.11ax

Tue Aug 06, 2019 11:23 pm

I don't understand al that whining abt MT not making it into the future...
I am a small 750 clients WISP in an area where at least 8 other providers are around.
60% of my network is now full 'ac' (with a load of 'arm' devices) and I run on most of my 40+ sectors plain 802.11 which still everytime again shows better results then NV2 (or nstreeme)
Yes, I tend to work with signal levels close to -50, anything higher then -60 will be up for an antenna upgrade or it must be on a small (<10 clients) AP.

Our plans are offering 50Mbps down, 5 up to our clients and so far we have a very satisfied customer base.
In one area to compete with fiber we have a Netmetal with 40+ SXT's and SXT'sq, all working in 802.11ac and we give them the 100/20 Mb plan...
The frequency even overlaps some other but in careful picking the 'pilot' channel it all works to satisfaction.
Due the pricing of MT hardware we can always compete on price with any of the 'bigger' providers and although we loose some at times (and get new ones back) we managed to have a stable and satisfied client base.
We use several 60Ghz links for the short backhal to satisfaction (ditched some Metrolinks over it. Unreliable and too costly). These 60Ghz works so good I tend to forget them in the update cycles we maintain since they simply always work.

Yes, MT has a learning curve and indeed, a lot of fine tuning can be done, and needs to be done. We also tried Mimosa but for the money we spend on that I regret I didn't wait a year and would have no all the same done with Mikrotik for much less money..
All my competitors use ubiquity but I see them struggling to get the same done as us and we see several of them trying other brands as well. So they must have their issues too...

We have 4G LTE since 2 years in our region, but to be honest... it sucks.. Where speeds very good the first weeks (way over 100Mbps, even in a moving car) that fell considerably the moment more people bought themselves 4G phone and started to watch their video over it. (And these same clients still want 'fixed' internet to their home).
For the rural area (but high housing levels) I don't see 5G going to deliver the promises neither. Their simply won't come enough towers to the region.

MT as usual takes time to bring new technology and needs even more to mature their ROS when the hardware is finally there, but for the price it makes still a economic model to wait maybe a year to do the same as any high level product but for a fraction of the price.
For instance eCambium with their new ePMP4000 product line is claiming higher CPE levels per AP but the price is also several times higher. And in the transition process you need to run two networks side by side. In the anology of taduikis this means you still need to keep the present girlfriend with all its merits while investing in the new one. And yes, you get screwed twice! They 'interfere with each other and we all know what that means! :lol:

For small WISPS with small budgets the niche market can still be profitable but you have to be smart and stick to the wife once chosen. If you are loyal you have to hope she (MT) is too and delivers us new hardware to sustain our marriage into the future!
Show your appreciation of this post by giving me Karma! Thanks.

Rudy R. Puister

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ste
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Re: 802.11ax

Tue Aug 06, 2019 11:43 pm

I don't understand al that whining abt MT not making it into the future...
I am a small 750 clients WISP in an area where at least 8 other providers are around.
60% of my network is now full 'ac' (with a load of 'arm' devices) and I run on most of my 40+ sectors plain 802.11 which still everytime again shows better results then NV2 (or nstreeme)
Yes, I tend to work with signal levels close to -50, anything higher then -60 will be up for an antenna upgrade or it must be on a small (<10 clients) AP.

Our plans are offering 50Mbps down, 5 up to our clients and so far we have a very satisfied customer base.
In one area to compete with fiber we have a Netmetal with 40+ SXT's and SXT'sq, all working in 802.11ac and we give them the 100/20 Mb plan...
The frequency even overlaps some other but in careful picking the 'pilot' channel it all works to satisfaction.
Due the pricing of MT hardware we can always compete on price with any of the 'bigger' providers and although we loose some at times (and get new ones back) we managed to have a stable and satisfied client base.
We use several 60Ghz links for the short backhal to satisfaction (ditched some Metrolinks over it. Unreliable and too costly). These 60Ghz works so good I tend to forget them in the update cycles we maintain since they simply always work.

Yes, MT has a learning curve and indeed, a lot of fine tuning can be done, and needs to be done. We also tried Mimosa but for the money we spend on that I regret I didn't wait a year and would have no all the same done with Mikrotik for much less money..
All my competitors use ubiquity but I see them struggling to get the same done as us and we see several of them trying other brands as well. So they must have their issues too...

We have 4G LTE since 2 years in our region, but to be honest... it sucks.. Where speeds very good the first weeks (way over 100Mbps, even in a moving car) that fell considerably the moment more people bought themselves 4G phone and started to watch their video over it. (And these same clients still want 'fixed' internet to their home).
For the rural area (but high housing levels) I don't see 5G going to deliver the promises neither. Their simply won't come enough towers to the region.

MT as usual takes time to bring new technology and needs even more to mature their ROS when the hardware is finally there, but for the price it makes still a economic model to wait maybe a year to do the same as any high level product but for a fraction of the price.
For instance eCambium with their new ePMP4000 product line is claiming higher CPE levels per AP but the price is also several times higher. And in the transition process you need to run two networks side by side. In the anology of taduikis this means you still need to keep the present girlfriend with all its merits while investing in the new one. And yes, you get screwed twice! They 'interfere with each other and we all know what that means! :lol:

For small WISPS with small budgets the niche market can still be profitable but you have to be smart and stick to the wife once chosen. If you are loyal you have to hope she (MT) is too and delivers us new hardware to sustain our marriage into the future!
Don t know what your available Spektrum is. We need/use gps sync to get the performance we need.
 
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BartoszP
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Re: 802.11ax

Wed Aug 07, 2019 12:00 am

!ste:

Is it necessary to quote FULL previous post?
Real admins use real keyboards.
 
ste
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Re: 802.11ax

Wed Aug 07, 2019 12:15 am

!ste:

Is it necessary to quote FULL previous post?
No. As forum SW handles this quite good (scrollbars) my lazyness does not hurt too much ;-)
 
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BartoszP
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Re: 802.11ax

Wed Aug 07, 2019 12:22 am

How to educate other users if you do not set a good example? Laziness is not a good excuse.
Real admins use real keyboards.
 
WirelessRudy
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Re: 802.11ax

Wed Aug 07, 2019 2:12 am

I don't understand al that whining abt MT not making it into the future.............................................. our marriage into the future!
Don t know what your available Spektrum is. We need/use gps sync to get the performance we need.
This is Spain... we use like all the others, that what is available.
Let me count, in total some 40+ AP's and at least some 25 backhauls. All in 5Ghz, most 40Mhs, many 80Mhz. All in a range of 15km...
Count my blessings. Every sector I have at leasts overlaps some other radio and vice versa in some corner of our valley. It's a big puzzle to find working freq's.
I know some operators even work 'out of band' in 100% illegal frequencies, some in 'grey' area (legal but too much power....) etc. just to keep the business going. Nobody denounces since everybody will see it then boomerang back.....

Yes, MT's sync sucks. I tried it several times but it simply is worse then without. But then again, we even have 4 Mimosa AP's that we tried to do sync and we could only manage to get 2 pairs out of the 4 AP's to work seamless. The others interfere with each other.
Some new provider entered this region a year ago with two towers with each 4 sectors, synch'd but each full 80Mhz channel, ubnt radios. It caused problems for some of my sectors so shifted some frequencies and now even have one of my sectors at distance but serving the same region. It sits in the middle of their 80Mhz and I am serving my clients with 40Mhz...The 802.11ac protocol works fine, don't know about theirs.... (All my signals to clients have to be -60 or better. And ping times are not very stable but below 40ms which is ok for a P2MP setup. I do always make sure my "C" channel ('pilot channel'?) is not the same as theirs though. The 'ac' protocol should work 'around' it.
We don't do VOIP, it's cheaper to give clients a terminal with a simm of one of the cell operators. We have a deal with them. They bill us wholesale and we bill the clients. Problems are theirs and we still make a couple of bucks per month on these clients...! Clients don't care if this is VOIP over our wire or Cell (with VOIP over cell). As long as they have a phone line with a geographic number assigned they are happy.
Bulk of our clients use video and IPTV and that works absolutely fine for them. Our 90% issues come from home Wifi.

When I started this WISP 18 years ago the spectrum was sort of desert. Now it's more like the battle of Austerlitz with too many parties and even the big army's (cell operators with their G4) make a mess with low coverage and illegal towers.... It's a war out here and if there would be any arbitrage 80% had to shut down and probably the richest (or the best 'friends in high places' = money) win. That is not me..... :-(
As long as we all earn our daily bread and people get their internet we will survive... And MT makes it possible! :D
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Rudy R. Puister

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mistry7
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Re: 802.11ax

Wed Aug 07, 2019 9:13 am

[/quote]

We don't do VOIP, it's cheaper to give clients a terminal with a simm of one of the cell operators. We have a deal with them. They bill us wholesale and we bill the clients. Problems are theirs and we still make a couple of bucks per month on these clients...! Clients don't care if this is VOIP over our wire or Cell (with VOIP over cell). As long as they have a phone line with a geographic number assigned they are happy.
[/quote]

We Are in Germany and we have 10 Village Networks without any CellPhone Service.
The Ping over our Networks is in 1-2ms
We have No AP with more Then 15 Clients for
Staible VoIP Service.
Our 90% issues come from home Wifi.
Yes that is the same here

When I started this WISP 18 years ago the Spectrum was sort of desert. Now it's more like the battle of Austerlitz with too many parties and even the big army's (cell operators with their G4) make a mess with low coverage and illegal towers.... It's a war out here and if there would be any arbitrage 80% had to shut down and probably the richest (or the best 'friends in high places' = money) win. That is not me..... :-(
As long as we all earn our daily bread and people get their internet we will survive... And MT makes it possible! :D
MT Could have much better Soloutions if they here there coustomers
 
pe1chl
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Re: 802.11ax

Wed Aug 07, 2019 10:55 am

I know some operators even work 'out of band' in 100% illegal frequencies, some in 'grey' area (legal but too much power....) etc. just to keep the business going. Nobody denounces since everybody will see it then boomerang back.....
Is there no telecom authority in Spain?
Here in the Netherlands we get calls and/or letters from them when an outside AP operates on the indoor (low) channels, or on a radar channel without using DFS, or outside the band.
Operating too much power is a bit harder for them to prove. But on several occasions they actually mapped the frequencies of tower-mounted APs.
 
ste
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Re: 802.11ax

Wed Aug 07, 2019 11:46 am

I know some operators even work 'out of band' in 100% illegal frequencies, some in 'grey' area (legal but too much power....) etc. just to keep the business going. Nobody denounces since everybody will see it then boomerang back.....
Is there no telecom authority in Spain?
Here in the Netherlands we get calls and/or letters from them when an outside AP operates on the indoor (low) channels, or on a radar channel without using DFS, or outside the band.
Operating too much power is a bit harder for them to prove. But on several occasions they actually mapped the frequencies of tower-mounted APs.
There are comparable rules/laws. But very different efforts enforcing this. And there are different capabilities (my guys here have an anritsu but bad antennas). I follow rules to avoid problems. And I see the sense in these rules. (Almost, as these DFS rules are not practicable (lead to service interuptions at times) and no vendor has a good/correct handling).
One reason we move away from MT Wireless is: You cant follow the rules and keep the service going smooth.
There is still no ATPC. MT follows the rules and set TX-Power to the lower powerlimit. So if you enter correct antenna gain you end up with low TX-power.
So WirelessRudy operates illegal for sure to get reasonable Signal. He will not call regulations as they may shut him down. You cant enforce a rule you break.
I gave up on asking for ATPC for a long time and decided to use a vendor which is able to implement it and allows me to operate with higher power according to the rules. If everybody would follow rules MT had implemented ATPC long time ago. But there are too much cheaters and "amateurs" (which do not see the benefit of ATPC for their self-interference). So they dont care.
 
WirelessRudy
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Re: 802.11ax

Wed Aug 07, 2019 1:01 pm

I am from Holland too and know the differences between the two countries. But where in Holland the rules are strict, and policing is everywhere, in Spain only those that get denounced by others get a checkup.
It's with housing rules, business rules, safety rules, traffic rules etc. etc. You can basically do what you want until someone doesn't like it/you and denounces it/you.
In Holland a policeman seeing something that could be considered illegal or just lacking documentations would trigger him to ask/investigate it and if found something not in order shut things down.
In Spain the police doesn't do nothing if somebody has not been asking him to do so.... (Well, traffic nowadays is slightly different). Not seldom that same police officer (or major, civil servant etc.) is not having all papers for his house/reform/whatever rule in place himself...
In Holland you have dedicated civil servants that are looking around if all that falls under his area of interest is having the proper licenses etc. In Spain most townhals haven't and even at national or provincial levels they are ample.

I always stated, and still think this is valid, that if all WISP's in Spain tomorrow would work according regulations, the day after 60% of fixed wireless clients wouldn't have no more service and by the end of the month 50% of all WISP would go bankrupt...
Frequencies 'out of band' or in the lower band, too high signal levels (Spain doesn't even allow directional antenna in the free 5Ghz band or you have to tune the power output that low nothing comes out of it anymore!) is more the standard way of doing things here .... off course nobody openly admits, but I see what I see when I run a scan....
I tried Mimosa in regulatory domain and almost all my clients disconnect. Same with Mikrotik. Or signals become that bad that no more proper service can be delivered.
Running DFS? Well, we have rain radar and an approach path of one of Span's busiest airfield over our valley. If we have to work in those frequencies that have no influence of these two I am left with almost nothing. If possible (Mikrotik) I switch it off. In Mimosa we cannot but in using 'grey' frequency at least it doesn't harm the network every minute. Now the network just goes down for almost 10 minutes when we reboot the Mimosa AP.. I can live with that....
Basically all my competitors, even the national operating ones, use frequencies and EIRPS way out of the regulations....
Also, once I've red an article stating that in Spain probably some 16.000 (!) communications towers on the top of mountains are lacking any form of documentation or permits and not seldom are protruding local as well as national laws.... Many towers it's not even known who owns them....

Our reason to work as much as possible with frequencies inside the allowed band is not out of abiding to the law... more that I don't want to give my competitor too much sticks to hit me with in front of a judge...
If tomorrow all housing laws would be enforce I would probably lose half of my clients too... this is rural Spain!
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Rudy R. Puister

WISP operator based on MT routerboard & ROS.

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