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robmaltsystems
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Bit confused by the existence of the hAP AC Lite?

Mon Sep 09, 2019 11:05 pm

The maximum one tends to get with Wi-Fi 4 (802.11n) with two chains (e..g many laptops) is ~70Mbps so it's a reasonable match for VDSL2 here in the UK where the internet link isn't much higher than that is many cases, often less. So having 100Mbps port for the internet connection is fine.

One tends to start looking at Wi-Fi 5 (802.11ac) when your underlying internet link is >VDSL2 speeds such as on Virgin Media which can be 200Mbps or even higher. So why does the hAP AC Lite still only have 100Mbps ports? That Wi-Fi 5 connection is never going to go above 100Mbps is it not? I assume that connection between two Wi-Fi connected devices would run at >100Mbps but that's an unusual case.

I kind of expected the internet port to be 1Gbps... am I missing something or is the hAP AC lite rather limited in use?
 
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robmaltsystems
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Re: Bit confused by the existence of the hAP AC Lite?

Mon Sep 09, 2019 11:08 pm

PS. the hAP ac² I get because that does have 1Gbps Ethernet ports.
 
mkx
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Re: Bit confused by the existence of the hAP AC Lite?

Mon Sep 09, 2019 11:29 pm

In theory maximum speed over wireless exceeds speed of wired ports indeed. In practice speed over wireless rarely reaches much more than one third of maximum speed in good radio conditions and less than that in sub-optimal radio conditions (e.g. when client is some distance and corners away from AP's antennae) and then wireless speed drops to 100Mbps or less.

Plus, SOC with a 100Mbps switch chip integrated costs a few cents less than one with Gbps switch chip. And, hey, it was Qualcomm who first came with an idea to pair 300Mbps wireless with 100Mbps wires ...
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Re: Bit confused by the existence of the hAP AC Lite?

Mon Sep 09, 2019 11:33 pm

Eeyup, there's been plenty models of e.g. tplink AC routers with 100Mb ports because that's what Qualcomm in its infinite genius put in the chipset... another fantastic thing is how many models of SoCs have a max supported size of SPI flash limited to 16MB, which is primary reason many MT devices have such amount and run into free space troubles during upgrade attempts...
 
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robmaltsystems
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Re: Bit confused by the existence of the hAP AC Lite?

Mon Sep 09, 2019 11:49 pm

I appreciate that real world wireless speeds are way less than the stated speeds of the raw connection. I'm guessing that the Wi-Fi 4 2-chain Mikrotik devices are labelled as 300Mbps but hence the reason I quoted that real-life speedtest rating of 70Mbps if you're a few metres away from the access point.

However, Wi-Fi 5 devices can regularly get speeds well in excess of 150Mbps speedtest - one of my clients has Cisco access points connected via 10Gbps backbone and they regularly speedtest at well over 200Mbps.

But with this device, even if the Wi-Fi is connected at these realistic speeds, the 100Mbps port to the internet will be a bottleneck.
 
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Re: Bit confused by the existence of the hAP AC Lite?

Tue Sep 10, 2019 6:04 am

One use case would be vdsl2 areas where the 2.4ghz bands are overcrowded and all but unusable.

Another would be for wireless internet providers that use 2.4ghz bands to distribute internet, they can provide a router they can set to not interfere with the channel they are using to connect that client.
 
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Re: Bit confused by the existence of the hAP AC Lite?

Tue Sep 10, 2019 8:21 am

Virgin Media which can be 200Mbps or even higher.
This Virgin Media operates in your country, while most of the other planet gets less than 100Mbit from their provider and 100Mbit is plenty enough.
assume that connection between two Wi-Fi connected devices would run at >100Mbps but that's an unusual case.
Why so? All my home devices are on WiFi only, and LAN speed is, therefore, higher than 100Mbit. Files can be shared between devices, media can be streamed from a NAS to a PC etc.
No answer to your question? How to write posts
 
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Re: Bit confused by the existence of the hAP AC Lite?

Tue Sep 10, 2019 9:27 am

However, Wi-Fi 5 devices can regularly get speeds well in excess of 150Mbps speedtest - one of my clients has Cisco access points connected via 10Gbps backbone and they regularly speedtest at well over 200Mbps.

But with this device, even if the Wi-Fi is connected at these realistic speeds, the 100Mbps port to the internet will be a bottleneck.

If your ISP line is anything more than, say, 50Mbps, then you shouldn't be looking at hAP ac lite as your router ... realistically it's not capable of routing much faster than around 50Mbps ... So don't be so cheap and buy a vastly more capable device which is not so cheap, such as hAP ac2...
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robmaltsystems
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Re: Bit confused by the existence of the hAP AC Lite?

Tue Sep 10, 2019 11:21 am

>This Virgin Media operates in your country, while most of the other planet gets less than 100Mbit from their provider and 100Mbit is plenty enough.

I agree for consumer use but MikroTik is also sold in the business space here where 100Mbit often isn't enough. I'm new to the MikroTik range and I'm simply evaluating replacing what I usually install (Ubiquiti) with their equipment. I love the power of RouterOS so I was looking through the range for a WiFi 5 device for a small business. I came across this model and wondered if I was missing something. Nothing sinister, just as I said "confused".

>Why so? All my home devices are on WiFi only, and LAN speed is, therefore, higher than 100Mbit. Files can be shared between devices, media can be streamed from a NAS to a PC etc.

This is an edge case in the UK - media servers are very rare. Most users simply stream from online services.
 
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robmaltsystems
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Re: Bit confused by the existence of the hAP AC Lite?

Tue Sep 10, 2019 11:43 am

>If your ISP line is anything more than, say, 50Mbps, then you shouldn't be looking at hAP ac lite as your router ... realistically it's not capable of routing much faster than around 50Mbps ... So don't be so cheap and buy a vastly more capable device which is not so cheap, such as hAP ac2..

My confusion was not so much over price as to why this model exists at all and what are the usage cases. I guess here in the UK if you're lucky enough to get near the maximum VDSL2 speed (80Mbps), then it would be useful as the most as I could get out of my little hAP mini (which I'm using for teaching myself RouterOS) was 55Mbps with no interference, close to router and 80MHz channel width.

>vastly more capable device which is not so cheap, such as hAP ac2..

I don't disagree - I was just looking through the range for the best value AC router and access points. And as I look through the range on Broadbandbuyer, nearly all the WiFi 5 devices have gigabit except MikroTik.

The RBCAPAC (cAP ac) is probably the device I'd consider most often. Except I do rather like the simplicity of the Ubiquiti cloud controller - I need to have a look at Dude but my initial investigation suggests it runs on one of the devices, not in the cloud. Is MikroTik looking at something similar?

I'm really do like the MikroTik range, esp. RouterOS, but I'm just learning.
 
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Re: Bit confused by the existence of the hAP AC Lite?

Tue Sep 10, 2019 7:00 pm

I agree for consumer use but MikroTik is also sold in the business space here where 100Mbit often isn't enough. I'm new to the MikroTik range and I'm simply evaluating replacing what I usually install (Ubiquiti) with their equipment. I love the power of RouterOS so I was looking through the range for a WiFi 5 device for a small business. I came across this model and wondered if I was missing something. Nothing sinister, just as I said "confused".
It is sold for businesses but you are only looking at a % of UK businesses with your comment where 100Mb isn't enough. There are hundreds of thousands of small businesses operating from VDSL2 and even ADSL still and it is perfectly fine for them.
Simply, it is the wrong device for use case. It's like you've assumed the hAP AC Lite is aimed at the UK DIA market which it isn't. There are locations outside of the UK also where VDSL2 exceeds 100Mb so it wouldn't be as great a fit as initially thought. It is a great low cost router and ideal for a WISP to deploy though.

hAP AC2 would be a better fit or you could even push an RB4011 if you wanted it to go head to head with a Draytek on a "real" line.

Who are these businesses deploying such high level lines and terminating them into a small <£80 router in the corner and then hooking everyone up via wireless?

With MikroTik they are incredibly well balanced £ Vs Performance. If it seems to cheap for the job in hand then chances are, you're specifying the wrong kit. (Although MT kit is good value as well I'll just lever in).
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Re: Bit confused by the existence of the hAP AC Lite?

Tue Sep 10, 2019 7:04 pm

The RBCAPAC (cAP ac) is probably the device I'd consider most often. Except I do rather like the simplicity of the Ubiquiti cloud controller - I need to have a look at Dude but my initial investigation suggests it runs on one of the devices, not in the cloud. Is MikroTik looking at something similar?
A really good mantra to stick by (sorry MikroTik)
MikroTik for switching and routing
Ubiquiti for WiFi
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Re: Bit confused by the existence of the hAP AC Lite?

Wed Sep 11, 2019 9:13 am

The maximum one tends to get with Wi-Fi 4 (802.11n) with two chains (e..g many laptops) is ~70Mbps so it's a reasonable match for VDSL2 here in the UK where the internet link isn't much higher than that is many cases, often less. So having 100Mbps port for the internet connection is fine.

One tends to start looking at Wi-Fi 5 (802.11ac) when your underlying internet link is >VDSL2 speeds such as on Virgin Media which can be 200Mbps or even higher. So why does the hAP AC Lite still only have 100Mbps ports? That Wi-Fi 5 connection is never going to go above 100Mbps is it not? I assume that connection between two Wi-Fi connected devices would run at >100Mbps but that's an unusual case.

I kind of expected the internet port to be 1Gbps... am I missing something or is the hAP ac lite rather limited in use?
In my apartment in London I got Hyperoptic symmetric 150 Mbps installed. I was using their router, but I happened to have a hAP ac lite TC around, so I swapped it. I have just two laptops/3 cellulars in London, so everything was perfect, but I wanted to have my VPNs around, so I swapped and used it for a while. One day I was testing speed out of curiosity after reading this forums. I was getting roughly 90 Mbps bidirectional with a cable plugged, and about the same on wireless, as the place is quite benign in terms of radio interference.

I was feeling greedy and wanted to squeeze to the last bit, so I bought a hAP ac^2. Now I get 150Mbps bidirectional in speed tests, both with cable or wirelessly, but honestly from the point of view of users I'm not sure if I can tell the difference. Everything takes roughly the same time, even backup using VPN to my main place seems to be taking the same time. If I had 300Mbps from my ISP the difference would have been more noticeable, but for 150Mbps I would just "waste" 50% of a mostly unused capacity.

I would say: if you are in a tight budget, or you appreciate that the hAP ac lite dissipates about three times less than ac^2, or you like the ability to control the leds of the "lite" to show things instead of ports, lite is good enough. Notice that 0.008kW*24h*30days means ~1 pound per month in electricity for the hAP ac lite TC, vs 0.021kW*24h*30days that means ~ 2.6£ for the ac^2. I don't know how close to the maximum are them under light load, but this is another difference that, say, a hotel or a students building might consider if they are installing one AP per room...

So definitely I don't think hAP ac lite / lite TC is worthless.
 
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Re: Bit confused by the existence of the hAP AC Lite?

Wed Sep 11, 2019 1:58 pm

My confusion was not so much over price as to why this model exists at all and what are the usage cases. I guess here in the UK if you're lucky enough to get near the maximum VDSL2 speed (80Mbps), then it would be useful as the most as I could get out of my little hAP mini (which I'm using for teaching myself RouterOS) was 55Mbps with no interference, close to router and 80MHz channel width.
I would say it exists because it has a different price point, many customers (often not in the UK) will be very price sensitive, so this provides an option.

As others have said, for a business spending money on higher speeds, why wouldn't they spend a bit more and get something suitable for their needs.

If you need advice on suitable kit for different kit for different purposes then get in touch, we don't just shift boxes !

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robmaltsystems
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Re: Bit confused by the existence of the hAP AC Lite?

Wed Sep 11, 2019 2:23 pm

>but honestly from the point of view of users I'm not sure if I can tell the difference.

Whilst I personally agree, when you get above 50Mbps, only power users are going to really notice the difference. But, UK consumers are sometimes very, err, demanding and if they know their speed test is such-and-such, they'll do a speed test and go "hey, I'm only getting 50Mbps on my 70Mbps link" :-) So I'm trying not to install WiFi 4 devices anymore so I was surfing around for cost effective WiFi 5 devices. In the VDSL2 scenario, the hAP AC Lite is fine.

>So definitely I don't think hAP ac lite / lite TC is worthless.

Me neither but if it had a 1Gbps internet port (just one) then it would be so much more appealing. I'm assuming the reason it doesn't it that it's using a chipset designed for mobile devices where having 1Gbps network ports isn't really a consideration. I know it's been discussed before but it is a shame there isn't a consumer end with VDSL2 modem. You'd clean up in the UK - often the ISP provider WiFi routers are pretty unreliable esp. the older BT hubs.

>As others have said, for a business spending money on higher speeds, why wouldn't they spend a bit more and get something suitable for their needs.

No argument from me here. I didn't start this thread saying we were trying to save money :-) Just trying to understand why a device capable of 200Mbps real throughput on WiFi 5 was limited by the network port.

Cheers, Rob.
 
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Re: Bit confused by the existence of the hAP AC Lite?

Wed Sep 11, 2019 3:50 pm

I know it's been discussed before but it is a shame there isn't a consumer end with VDSL2 modem. You'd clean up in the UK - often the ISP provider WiFi routers are pretty unreliable esp. the older BT hubs.
It is a crying shame 'Tik don't have anything with a combined modem however there are some absolutely rock solid routers out there by the same standards. Zyxel VMG1312 for example and the "newer" Zyxel VMG-3625 which is a more up to date, dual band gigabit router. Similarly well priced just nowhere near the functionality of RouterOS but ideal for end user CPE (note not big business).
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