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anuser
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[wifiwave2] for cAP ac, hAP ac2

Sun Dec 13, 2020 2:06 pm

* MikroTik released a new wireless driver package lately:
RouterOS version 7.1beta3 has been released in public "development" channel!
!) added new experimental wireless package "wifiwave2" for ARM devices with more than 256 MB of RAM (CLI only);
* Regarding the RAM requirement, I have to note that my cAP ac device shows over 80 MB of free RAM, even when 30+ clients are concurrently connected. So I assume that there is plenty of RAM left for using the new wireless firmware and drivers on IPQ4018/IPQ4019 devices which have 128 MB of RAM installed.

* Also, as this new package contains several firmware files, libraries and linux kernel modules for different chipsets the file npk package is quite big. With its 10MB it is not possible to install it on current devices with 16MB of ROM, e.g. cAP ac, hAP ac2, new wAP ac, ...
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* Of course, I want to have new features like 802.11w and MU-MIMO, WPA3 and better performance on my current MikroTik cAP ac devices. According to https://help.mikrotik.com/docs/display/ROS/WifiWave2 "400Mb/s maximum data rate in the 2.4GHz band for IPQ4019 interfaces" is possible.

* While looking around for information about modifying MikroTik´s npk packages, you could find different outdated tools for RouterOS v6 (e.g. https://github.com/kost/mikrotik-npk/). Therefore I want to ask whether someone of you already tried modifying a RouterOS V7 package at all?

* Of course, if MikroTik will provide a separate kind of "wifiwave2-lite" package for IPQ/4018/IPQ4019 devices with 16MB of ROM, I wouldn´t have to start this thread at all.
 
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Re: [wifiwave2] for cAP ac, hAP ac2

Sun Dec 13, 2020 3:24 pm

Wave2 requires FAR more resources ... ACTIVE Memory Resources [RAM in simple terms] ... Wave 2 cannot be supported on MEMORY deprived devices PERIOD. If you are hoping and praying that its possible you are dreaming in vivid color. :-)
 
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Re: [wifiwave2] for cAP ac, hAP ac2

Sun Dec 13, 2020 5:30 pm

You can't modify packages, they are digitally signed and will not install if you change them in any way.

But I agree it's clearly possible to make much smaller new wifi package. Also the RAM requirement can be lowered by using smaller buffers. The default sizes are optimized to get absolute maximum performance from wave2 hardware, but even if you scale them down a lot (say 10x smaller) you will have all the advantages of wave2 with possibly slower performance at maximum MCSs, often requiring quite unrealistic signal levels anyway.
It might even be possible to fit it all into 16MB flash if it's really optimized (remove all debugging info, messages etc.), remove old wifi package completely, build driver with compiler set to optimize for code size instead of performance (again it would be better to have fully working wave2 features with slightly lower performance on some devices than no wave2 at all).

Maybe in general building all non-performance ROS components (winbox, console,...) as code size optimized instead of performance may be a good idea to get a bit more space. If winbox is few milliseconds slower there and there, it will probably not even be noticeable...
 
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Re: [wifiwave2] for cAP ac, hAP ac2

Sun Dec 13, 2020 11:16 pm

Maybe in general building all non-performance ROS components (winbox, console,...) as code size optimized instead of performance may be a good idea to get a bit more space.

I guess you analyzed all ROS parts to claim that none of code is size-optimized?

While I'm looking forward to wave2 driver for hAP ac2 I really hate seeing so many posts telling MT devs what to do, pressing them to rush things (and at the same time nagging over unsquashed bugs). Did occur to anybody that debuging symbols in ROS parts might be necessary to create supouts? I don't know that either, but I guess it's possible. I guess many would trade supouts for additional functionality, but then even more bugs would be lurking around.
I'm pretty sure MT will do everything to make their hardware perform as good as it's possible ... and I guess they know their hardware slightly better than most of us, forum members. So let's give them a break so that they can get ROSv7 out of beta. We'll try to persuade them to release wave2 drivers for lower end wireless devices then ...
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Re: [wifiwave2] for cAP ac, hAP ac2

Sun Dec 13, 2020 11:32 pm

I'm just trying to brainstorm some ways to get it running. Yes, I have analyzed the package quite a lot, so while I can't be sure about used compiler options, I can see some details that may not be normally visible, like that debug info. And I agree with you, removing any debug information will make error reporting and debugging much harder, so it's not something you would do at this stage of the development... but once it's stable it's one of the ways to slim it down. It's like that scene from Apollo 13 where they have to turn off pretty much each and every non-essential device to stay within energy budget. Slimming software this much is quite ugly process and a lot of stuff has to go. I'm not holding my breath this will actually happen, just saying there are still some ways left to explore and that there is still some hope this might be possible...
 
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Re: [wifiwave2] for cAP ac, hAP ac2

Mon Dec 14, 2020 12:04 am

MU-MIMO spec was set over 5 years ago.

Mikrotik has put their implementation for it into DEVELOPMENT branch now.

Meanwhile... Evey other vendor is focused on WiFi 6. Many have had it out for months.

I gave up on Mikrotik wireless for anything critical a long time ago. Mostly for how it doesn't deal well with interference. Caps-man on a good radio would be a game changer... Notice I typed "good radio".

But the push back I am going to face with UniF--k having 2 WiFi 6 radio choices, just isn't worth my time. Gonna have to continue sending customers to Amazon to get Ruckus at below my costs.
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Re: [wifiwave2] for cAP ac, hAP ac2

Mon Dec 14, 2020 12:29 am

MU-MIMO spec was set over 5 years ago.

Mikrotik has put their implementation for it into DEVELOPMENT branch now.

Meanwhile... Evey other vendor is focused on WiFi 6. Many have had it out for months.

I gave up on Mikrotik wireless for anything critical a long time ago. Mostly for how it doesn't deal well with interference. Caps-man on a good radio would be a game changer... Notice I typed "good radio".

But the push back I am going to face with UniF--k having 2 WiFi 6 radio choices, just isn't worth my time. Gonna have to continue sending customers to Amazon to get Ruckus at below my costs.
Take a look to cambium, project prices are great. Performance is top, service is top,
Switches and AP’s with same Cloud / lokal Config like Capsman. AX is available
 
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Re: [wifiwave2] for cAP ac, hAP ac2

Mon Dec 14, 2020 12:36 am

MU-MIMO spec was set over 5 years ago.

Mikrotik has put their implementation for it into DEVELOPMENT branch now.

Meanwhile... Evey other vendor is focused on WiFi 6. Many have had it out for months.

I gave up on Mikrotik wireless for anything critical a long time ago. Mostly for how it doesn't deal well with interference. Caps-man on a good radio would be a game changer... Notice I typed "good radio".

But the push back I am going to face with UniF--k having 2 WiFi 6 radio choices, just isn't worth my time. Gonna have to continue sending customers to Amazon to get Ruckus at below my costs.
Take a look to cambium, project prices are great. Performance is top, service is top,
Switches and AP’s with same Cloud / lokal Config like Capsman. AX is available
Cambium just lost a major lawsuit to UBNT.

I have beaten the hell out of their APs and they are not much better than Mikrotik. More inline with UniF--k performance. And get clobbered by Ruckus. No need to waste any more time on them.

The new WiFi 6 stuff was fantastically expensive when I talked to them a few months ago. And they are horrible about delivery vs announcement. I think I got my e600 2 years after the initial inquiry.

And their prices on switches are ridiculous.
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Re: [wifiwave2] for cAP ac, hAP ac2

Mon Dec 14, 2020 10:41 pm

Wave 2 cannot be supported on MEMORY deprived devices PERIOD. If you are hoping and praying that its possible you are dreaming in vivid color. :-)
On OpenWrt it's supported xD
 
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Re: [wifiwave2] for cAP ac, hAP ac2

Mon Dec 14, 2020 10:49 pm

TP link have got wifi 6 on most of their latest offerings some with OFDMA and some with both OFDMA and mu-mimo.
All priced reasonably. Dont have any experience with them but do use the EAP245 which is a solid performing, stable version of what the current MTs should have been!!
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Re: [wifiwave2] for cAP ac, hAP ac2

Thu Dec 17, 2020 9:38 am

Wave2 requires FAR more resources ... ACTIVE Memory Resources [RAM in simple terms] ... Wave 2 cannot be supported on MEMORY deprived devices PERIOD. If you are hoping and praying that its possible you are dreaming in vivid color. :-)
Well, it´s about having a wireless package for testing, only. Let´s see whether 128MB of RAM is enough. Let us compare cAP ac with 128MB to older cAP ac with 256MB of RAM. Is there any limitation in a real environment? Who knows? Let us user check and report it back to MikroTik for getting a better wifi.
 
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Re: [wifiwave2] for cAP ac, hAP ac2

Tue Dec 29, 2020 12:14 am

On OpenWrt it's supported xD
According to https://help.mikrotik.com/docs/display/ROS/WifiWave2 with WifiWave2 Mikrotik´s access points reach "400Mb/s maximum data rate in the 2.4GHz band for IPQ4019 interfaces".
What about OpenWrt? What throughput do you get with 2.4GHz or 5.0Ghz with 20, 40 or 80 MHz channels? Have you tried "irqbalance" and enabled it by adding /usr/sbin/irqbalance to /etc/rc.local to improve throughput on your (was it cAP ac or hAP ac2)?
Last edited by anuser on Tue Dec 29, 2020 10:24 am, edited 2 times in total.
 
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Re: [wifiwave2] for cAP ac, hAP ac2

Tue Dec 29, 2020 12:57 am

Yeah TP-Link's Wifi 6 access points are released too and they are a beast.
 
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Re: [wifiwave2] for cAP ac, hAP ac2

Tue Dec 29, 2020 2:13 pm

Yeah TP-Link's Wifi 6 access points are released too and they are a beast.
So, what iperf throughput do you get with 2x2:2 MIMO Up and down with 20, 40 and 80 MHz channels for 2.4 and 5.0 GHz? What access point are you refering to? TP-Link EAP620 or EAP660HD?
 
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Re: [wifiwave2] for cAP ac, hAP ac2

Wed Dec 30, 2020 12:19 am

Posted few findings here viewtopic.php?f=1&t=169992#p836843
 
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Re: [wifiwave2] for cAP ac, hAP ac2

Wed Dec 30, 2020 3:24 pm

With OpenWRT on wAP AC (original), I get ~ 350mbps single client TCP throughput at MCS-9, 2x2, 80 MHz, WPA3. Device CPU is very close to 100% though which seems to be the limiting factor. Very happy with stability, every device "just works" and no weird throughput issues like MT wireless has with certain client chipsets. Looks like OpenWRT support for cAP AC (and presumably new wAP AC) is almost there, will be interesting to compare with a better CPU.
 
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Re: [wifiwave2] for cAP ac, hAP ac2

Wed Dec 30, 2020 8:37 pm

I just performed some tests with netbooted OpenWRT on hAP ac²: Even with performance cpu governor it actually performed slightly worse than my RouterOS 6.46.8 setup with capsman + local forwarding and secondary ssid.

The only real indication that there is unused potential on the hap ac² with RouterOS is the fact that single stream TCP iperf for iphone7(2x2)->hap_ac²->PC on close range is able to hit 470 Mbps, while the other direction cannot exceed 400 Mbps. OpenWRT was somewhere arround 350-370 Mbps for the same setup.
Real world performance is lower; tests with my RouterOS setup at speedtest.net result in around 300 Mbps download while the OpenWRT testrun for comparison was around 250 Mbps.

So my only expectation for wifiwave2 is to close the gap between up- and download, better real world performance and maybe slightly more stable datarates.
 
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Re: [wifiwave2] for cAP ac, hAP ac2

Thu Dec 31, 2020 12:21 am

The only real indication that there is unused potential on the hap ac² with RouterOS is the fact that single stream TCP iperf for iphone7(2x2)->hap_ac²->PC on close range is able to hit 470 Mbps, while the other direction cannot exceed 400 Mbps.
470 Mbit/s download at 2x2:2 MIMO with 80MHz @5GHz on a hap ac2 and RouterOS 6? => This sounds to good to be true...
 
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Re: [wifiwave2] for cAP ac, hAP ac2

Thu Dec 31, 2020 12:47 am

Well, it's only when the hap ac2 is on the receiving end and only in 1-stream iperf. I guess it's a best case scenario and I was testing at about 1m distance with clear line of sight.
I just wanted to point out, that the current ROS 6 only appears to be bad at _sending_ wifi data at high speed (>300 Mbps), but when it's on the receiving end performance is pretty much perfect. On my 1x1 Android device I get ~250 Mbps in both directions, it has been like that for me since the long-term 6.45 release.
If the current state of OpenWRT is representative of "real" wifiwave2 performance I wouldn't expect huge benefits from it.

Edit: All tests performed at 5 GHz with 80 MHz bandwidth. Specifically I am using channel 116 Ceee, this is DFS/weather radar range but luckily DFS doesn't trigger here.
 
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Re: [wifiwave2] for cAP ac, hAP ac2

Thu Dec 31, 2020 8:56 am

I got in the 300s 4 feet away at the office since moving to 6.48.

Still 200M off the mark once you flip manufactures.
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Re: [wifiwave2] for cAP ac, hAP ac2

Mon Jan 04, 2021 10:23 am

I got in the 300s 4 feet away at the office since moving to 6.48.

Still 200M off the mark once you flip manufactures.
Do you have the possibility to do some iperf3 tests?
 
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Re: [wifiwave2] for cAP ac, hAP ac2

Fri Jan 08, 2021 4:01 pm

I got in the 300s 4 feet away at the office since moving to 6.48.

Still 200M off the mark once you flip manufactures.
Do you have the possibility to do some iperf3 tests?
Honestly... I get really tired of testing Mikrotik wireless.

I have found its sandbox, and I keep it there.
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Re: [wifiwave2] for cAP ac, hAP ac2

Sat Jan 09, 2021 5:29 am

~500 Mbps download with 2x2 client very close to Chateau (no wifiwave2 for Chateau - not expensive enough I guess).
wifi-Cha.png
Chateau_iP6S.png
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Last edited by McSee on Sun Jan 10, 2021 3:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Re: [wifiwave2] for cAP ac, hAP ac2

Sat Jan 09, 2021 11:16 am

~500 Mbps download with 2x2 client very close to Chateau (no wifiwave2 for Chateau - not expensive enough I guess).
Thank you for the results.
 
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Re: [wifiwave2] for cAP ac, hAP ac2

Sun Jan 10, 2021 5:24 am

~500 Mbps download with 2x2 client very close to Chateau (no wifiwave2 for Chateau - not expensive enough I guess).
Thank you for the results.
Uhh huh... And what was the actually reporting throughput at the device?
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Re: [wifiwave2] for cAP ac, hAP ac2

Sun Jan 10, 2021 3:40 pm


Uhh huh... And what was the actually reporting throughput at the device?
Screenshot from the device (iPhone 6S) has been added.
 
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Re: [wifiwave2] for cAP ac, hAP ac2

Mon Jan 11, 2021 6:43 am

What about OpenWrt? What throughput do you get with 2.4GHz or 5.0Ghz with 20, 40 or 80 MHz channels? Have you tried "irqbalance" and enabled it by adding /usr/sbin/irqbalance to /etc/rc.local to improve throughput on your (was it cAP ac or hAP ac2)?
Well I haven't tested with iperf recently but my connection is 75/75mbps and OpenWrt delivers it without problems on 5GHz 80MHz channel 132, I can also hit 75mbps on 2.4GHz 20MHz using any 2x2 client.

The most noticeable change from ROS is that my WiFi is super stable, I can run it for more than a month without any 5GHz drop vs ROS where getting stable 5GHz is a PITA and it randomly disconnects devices during midnight.

Also OpenWrt recently added Coverage cell density option which allows to control the basic rates to eg 12 24 or 24 mbps instead of the default making a better airtime usage.

The only downside is that you can't exploit all the potential OpenWrt has to offer (VPN/multimedia server, etc) due to the limited amount of RAM on the ac2 but it works nicely as a home router doing QoS.
 
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Re: [wifiwave2] for cAP ac, hAP ac2

Mon Jan 11, 2021 6:59 pm

With OpenWRT on wAP AC (original), I get ~ 350mbps single client TCP throughput at MCS-9, 2x2, 80 MHz, WPA3.
Which release do you use? Stable or snapshot? ar71xx or ath79 driver?
 
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Re: [wifiwave2] for cAP ac, hAP ac2

Wed Jan 20, 2021 7:02 pm

I just realized that my OpenWrt tests with hAP ac² were slowed down by not using irqbalance. With irqbalance the same iperf test reaches 400+ Mbps in both directions, sometimes even up to 500 Mbps, so it's definitely not worse than ROS.
Testing towards the internet with speedtest.net still fails to exceed 300 Mbps by a noticable margin, this is now pretty much identical between ROS 6.46.8 and the latest OpenWRT Snapshot.
 
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Re: [wifiwave2] for cAP ac, hAP ac2

Sat Jan 23, 2021 12:47 am

I must say that I find openwrt very interesting. I'd like to run with wpa3 on my CAPs and MT have not committed to any new features. I'm sure they will do something, eventually though.
 
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Re: [wifiwave2] for cAP ac, hAP ac2

Sun Jan 24, 2021 4:20 pm

My Ruckus H510 at my desk it where I connect hard wired devices. I bought it in 2017 for $200. It got a firmware update adding WPA3 a few months ago.

It's AC MU-MIMO has worked since day one.
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Re: [wifiwave2] for cAP ac, hAP ac2

Sun Jan 24, 2021 10:09 pm

After almost two months of testing, 7.1b3 with wave2 only works for one device connected.
More devices usually fails to authenticate or are rebooting device. In past somehow I was able to add more devices as long as they were not disconnecting, as later they were unable to reconnect, but since latest factory reset I cannot even get that far.

Regarding range vs ros 6, the new implementation is completely smashing ros 6. In general ros 6 is not for the job for good few years now when it comes to WiFi range, stability and performance. My 2012 AirPort Extreme does much better job than 2019 audience.
But with wave2, it behaves like much different device, like proper 2019/2020 device.
However behind wifi6. Not that much of a problem tbh unless you have 1gbit internet connection.

Can’t wait for more stable wave2!
Thanks for adding it to ros7.
 
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Re: [wifiwave2] for cAP ac, hAP ac2

Wed Jan 27, 2021 6:31 pm

I must say that I find openwrt very interesting. I'd like to run with wpa3 on my CAPs and MT have not committed to any new features. I'm sure they will do something, eventually though.
IPQ401X devices with less than 256MB RAM are now "legacy" for the eyes of MT, I don't think they can add WPA3 on top of their "legacy" wireless implementation.
 
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Re: [wifiwave2] for cAP ac, hAP ac2

Wed Jan 27, 2021 7:29 pm

I must say that I find openwrt very interesting. I'd like to run with wpa3 on my CAPs and MT have not committed to any new features. I'm sure they will do something, eventually though.
IPQ401X devices with less than 256MB RAM are now "legacy" for the eyes of MT, I don't think they can add WPA3 on top of their "legacy" wireless implementation.
The cAP ac only has 128MB and it's current, so does this mean there's some new cAP 2.0 in the works?
 
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Re: [wifiwave2] for cAP ac, hAP ac2

Wed Jan 27, 2021 8:42 pm

I think early generation of cap AC were released with 256MB. But a later revision reduced that. All mine have 256MB.
I could be wrong here. I'll see if I can grab a screen shot.
But it might be possible to load through CAPSMAN. In theory it should be possible, to load a binary file with a config. But that takes Dev time and that costs money. MT have no incentive. But, stay hopeful. Probably need new hardware though. I do hope they make something with a generous amount of flash and ram so that features can eventually be trickled over time. Otherwise, I'll not bother with MT CAPs next time. I don't mind waiting. But if it never appears... Their track record is not great with wi-fi..
 
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Re: [wifiwave2] for cAP ac, hAP ac2

Thu Jan 28, 2021 4:58 am

6 years behind?

No references at all to WiFi 6?

Yeah... It's called RouterOS!
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anuser
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Re: [wifiwave2] for cAP ac, hAP ac2

Sun Feb 07, 2021 2:10 pm

6 years behind?
No references at all to WiFi 6?
Yeah... It's called RouterOS!
Well, no. The new wireless package contains firmware and drivers for multiple 802.11ax chipsets. Take a look at the screenshots above.
 
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Re: [wifiwave2] for cAP ac, hAP ac2

Sun Feb 07, 2021 3:11 pm

6 years behind?
No references at all to WiFi 6?
Yeah... It's called RouterOS!
Well, no. The new wireless package contains firmware and drivers for multiple 802.11ax chipsets. Take a look at the screenshots above.
Here's the screen shot that matters...
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Re: [wifiwave2] for cAP ac, hAP ac2

Sun Feb 07, 2021 9:37 pm

Here's the screen shot that matters...
I was refering to this oneImage

So there is IPQ6018, IPQ8074, IPQ8074v2. MikroTik is not the only vendor developing access points but does not sell 802.11ax access points nowadays, btw.
 
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Re: [wifiwave2] for cAP ac, hAP ac2

Sun Feb 07, 2021 10:17 pm

"If only caps-man could manage a good radio"

I hear that several times a week...
"It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so."
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Re: [wifiwave2] for cAP ac, hAP ac2

Sun Feb 14, 2021 5:19 pm

any capac2 variant should not be a fix to the current wifi5 old implementation, a slap in the face to current capac owners, they should go straight to wifi 6. So its a real change worth considering.
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