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sterling
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Where is Mikrotik Terragraph??

Tue Dec 15, 2020 6:32 pm

I've been to Cambium, Siklu and Edge-core/Ignitenet Terragraph webinars, announcing their Terragraph products.

I'm getting ready to deploy a few new large areas and have been struggling with density of Mikrotik 60GHz 802.11ad products.

Since we are gearing up to make some major decisions, I would like to see Mikrotik make some Terragraph announcement soon.

Is that possible Mikrotik guys?? Are you close to release, or information release, or anything at all on Terragraph??

My current pick is probably going to have to be Cambium given they are the only ones so far with long range client.
It looks very good, but also a LOT more expensive than some of the other options, and especially .ad systems I'm deploying.

If I'm going to place a $50k or $100k order of Terragraph equipment soon, give me a reason NOW to hold off a bit if Mikrotik has something coming soon.
 
ste
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Re: Where is Mikrotik Terragraph??

Tue Dec 15, 2020 6:46 pm

++1
 
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Re: Where is Mikrotik Terragraph??

Tue Dec 15, 2020 6:59 pm

+++1
and we wait for AX wifi 6E :(
MTCNA + MTCRE + MTCINE | ~600 users at ~150 RouterBoards in EMEA | Telegram: @SiB_PL
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At vacation until 15.jan.2021
 
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Re: Where is Mikrotik Terragraph??

Tue Dec 15, 2020 7:03 pm

Are there any bigger Terragraph (pure mesh) networks up and running today?
 
ste
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Re: Where is Mikrotik Terragraph??

Tue Dec 15, 2020 7:07 pm

Are there any bigger Terragraph (pure mesh) networks up and running today?
This stuff/chipset is new. Heard of some test networks with press releases but not sure this was done with .ad.
 
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Larsa
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Re: Where is Mikrotik Terragraph??

Tue Dec 15, 2020 7:25 pm

Couldn't find anything about pricing. Anyone dare to guess?
 
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Re: Where is Mikrotik Terragraph??

Tue Dec 15, 2020 7:56 pm

Couldn't find anything about pricing. Anyone dare to guess?
Cambium published prices. Imho far to expensive and needs to much power.
 
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Re: Where is Mikrotik Terragraph??

Tue Dec 15, 2020 8:27 pm

MT--> bleeding edge?? You are better off giving Elon Musk a call. First off the block be prepared to pay through the nose.
I'd rather manage rats than software. Follow my advice at your own risk! (Sob & mkx forced me to write that!)
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sterling
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Re: Where is Mikrotik Terragraph??

Tue Dec 15, 2020 9:31 pm

Have none of you attended any of the Vendor webinars?

Most of the questions you are asking here related to other vendors of Terragraph, and Terragraph in particular have been answered extensively.
I mean, you should invest the time if you are interested, it's not going to be easy to summarize everything here on a forum post.

I am trying to prompt Mikrotik staff into releasing any new information they have related to their/Mikrotik Terragraph solution and possible ETA.

Terragraph is TDD AY protocol, using I believe mostly the same AY chipset(s).

Which is not something Mikrotik has any product of at the moment.

UI has some advanced upper channel stuff in Airfiber 60 LR that is great, and I think is still AD chipset though?

I'm really looking at Terragraph for our future 60GHz deployments in density.

Mikrotik 60GHz AD stuff is an awesome solution for very low density situations. Anything that grows more than a couple of AP's with a handful (4-5) clients is a complete cluster F.
It just wasn't designed for that, but we DO have deployments of Mikrotik 60GHz with 40+ clients from a single POP using 4 to 9 APs co-located. It's just not a workable solution generally.
 
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Re: Where is Mikrotik Terragraph??

Tue Dec 15, 2020 9:40 pm

UI has some advanced upper channel stuff in Airfiber 60 LR that is great, and I think is still AD chipset though?
Yes. And higher power. Not sure this is peraso stuff.
 
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Re: Where is Mikrotik Terragraph??

Tue Dec 15, 2020 11:06 pm

According to the ads, the intention is to be able to deploy and replace fiber much faster and cheaper in densely populated areas. To achieve this in urban areas you need to put the devices really close to each other the same way as the high speed 5G architecture. Considering the amount of units needed to cover in a relatively small area, it will be a pretty heavy investment. You also need to cover the cost for powering all the mesh devices and the customers needs affordable CPEs. I really don't get the business modell. Anyone?

Prices according to Cambium:
Quantity Price
=============
1-4.........$425.00
5-9.........$414.38
10-19.....$403.75
20+........$382.50
 
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sterling
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Re: Where is Mikrotik Terragraph??

Wed Dec 16, 2020 12:25 am

Have you been doing dense high (meaning 250-500+Mbps) wireless?
Have you built out fiber in a neighborhood?

If not, then I'm guessing you are talking about a different "WISP" scenario, not comparable to what I'm talking about. So Terragraph doesn't apply.

If so, then you should know that the DN and CN pricing isn't bad at all.

Meaning even at $400-$700 for client CN and $1500-$2500 for DN is certainly cheaper.
There is nothing like this in the wireless market yet, period.
Fiber is the closest thing to it, and is probably required for most deployments at the edge of Terragraph.

Now, if you are talking retail fiber build, that is around $3000.00 per client all in to build.
I build for less than half that with my "at cost" model in my company doing Fiber.
But at amortized cost of less than $1000 per client gained, with 1Gbps FDX deliverable at the client (or more next year with bonding), this is a game changer.
I'm doing this as best I can at about 3-6 month ROI all in with 802.11AD equipment and it really isn't working well at scale.
If I can get this deployed at less than 9 month ROI then I'm all in.
ROI on Fiber is typically 30 years on bond. I've got that down to maybe 1/3 that at 10 years.
With my available infrastructure already in place to deliver 10Gbps fiber to the DN on one or more nodes in the mesh, at 9 month ROI I'm doing way better than fiber on costs.
And I'm able to deliver almost the same experience across nodes/mesh.
I'm certainly a LOT more dense and stable than anything else on the market at these speeds when we're talking wireless.

Where this doesn't work, is at distance. That's still the domain of the typical "WISP" last mile at 5GHz PtMP.
But we're really talking a different market entirely between Terragraph and 5GHz wireless.

According to the ads, the intention is to be able to deploy and replace fiber much faster and cheaper in densely populated areas. To achieve this in urban areas you need to put the devices really close to each other the same way as the high speed 5G architecture. Considering the amount of units needed to cover in a relatively small area, it will be a pretty heavy investment. You also need cover the cost to power all the mesh devices and the customers needs affordable CPEs. I really don't get the business modell. Anyone?

Prices according to Cambium:
Quantity Price
=============
1-4.........$425.00
5-9.........$414.38
10-19.....$403.75
20+........$382.50
 
ste
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Re: Where is Mikrotik Terragraph??

Wed Dec 16, 2020 1:21 am

Have you been doing dense high (meaning 250-500+Mbps) wireless?
Have you built out fiber in a neighborhood?

If not, then I'm guessing you are talking about a different "WISP" scenario, not comparable to what I'm talking about. So Terragraph doesn't apply.

If so, then you should know that the DN and CN pricing isn't bad at all.

Meaning even at $400-$700 for client CN and $1500-$2500 for DN is certainly cheaper.
There is nothing like this in the wireless market yet, period.
Fiber is the closest thing to it, and is probably required for most deployments at the edge of Terragraph.

Now, if you are talking retail fiber build, that is around $3000.00 per client all in to build.
I build for less than half that with my "at cost" model in my company doing Fiber.
But at amortized cost of less than $1000 per client gained, with 1Gbps FDX deliverable at the client (or more next year with bonding), this is a game changer.
I'm doing this as best I can at about 3-6 month ROI all in with 802.11AD equipment and it really isn't working well at scale.
If I can get this deployed at less than 9 month ROI then I'm all in.
ROI on Fiber is typically 30 years on bond. I've got that down to maybe 1/3 that at 10 years.
With my available infrastructure already in place to deliver 10Gbps fiber to the DN on one or more nodes in the mesh, at 9 month ROI I'm doing way better than fiber on costs.
And I'm able to deliver almost the same experience across nodes/mesh.
I'm certainly a LOT more dense and stable than anything else on the market at these speeds when we're talking wireless.

Where this doesn't work, is at distance. That's still the domain of the typical "WISP" last mile at 5GHz PtMP.
But we're really talking a different market entirely between Terragraph and 5GHz wireless.

According to the ads, the intention is to be able to deploy and replace fiber much faster and cheaper in densely populated areas. To achieve this in urban areas you need to put the devices really close to each other the same way as the high speed 5G architecture. Considering the amount of units needed to cover in a relatively small area, it will be a pretty heavy investment. You also need cover the cost to power all the mesh devices and the customers needs affordable CPEs. I really don't get the business modell. Anyone?

Prices according to Cambium:
Quantity Price
=============
1-4.........$425.00
5-9.........$414.38
10-19.....$403.75
20+........$382.50
You should add power to the equation. MT .ad stuff needs low power but this cambium stuff needs a lot. With dense installations you have to power a lot of equipment and if going through an area yoi need ups at least at one path through the area.
 
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Re: Where is Mikrotik Terragraph??

Wed Dec 16, 2020 1:39 am

Sterling wrote: "Have you been doing dense high (meaning 250-500+Mbps) wireless? Have you built out fiber in a neighborhood?" ....
. . .
. . .

Well, for starters regarding fiber CN in urban areas it's not $3000 but rather $300 or even much less in apartment buildings. $3000 is good for rural areas with approx 100-150 contracts. The normal committed contract length during new installations is normally 10 years (RoI) which also is a typical period where you as CN owner is permitted to make a new deal and change, for example, the fiber-optic communication operator.

Establishing passive air-suspended solid-core fibers is extremely fast, cheap and easy compared if grounded ducts aren't available which is typical of cities in the mountains or older cities with houses, roads and sidewalks made of stone. Fiber is also a future-proof investment. Any other solution must be much cheaper to make a hit in a new market.

Secondly, this solution will have to compete head to head with high speed 5G that provides at least as high transfer speeds using standardised and inexpensive terminals ie CPEs and ordinary smart phones.

That's why I think your numbers don't add up for the normal urban areas. And that's why I wonder what kind a magic niche market that the "Terragraphs" will fit in to. Maybe there is one but I don't see it :-)
 
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Re: Where is Mikrotik Terragraph??

Wed Dec 16, 2020 9:33 am

MikroTik already announced Terragraph and the plan is still active, it's still coming.
No answer to your question? How to write posts
 
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sterling
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Re: Where is Mikrotik Terragraph??

Wed Dec 16, 2020 8:17 pm

MikroTik already announced Terragraph and the plan is still active, it's still coming.
Thanks, I already supposed that.

But can you share WHEN?

I need something formal from Mikrotik to stop me from changing over entirely to Cambium 1Q 2021.

Seems like Mikrotik was in near/at the beginning of the Terragraph specification and test trials.
But not hearing anything, I mean almost NOTHING, from Mikrotik about Terragraph at all in the past two years is leading me to think you guys are 6-12 months behind in development of a product.

Please say something formally to change my mind.
 
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Re: Where is Mikrotik Terragraph??

Wed Dec 16, 2020 9:44 pm

But can you share WHEN?
SInce 02/2019: https://blog.mikrotik.com/announcements ... graph.html ;-)
 
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sterling
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Re: Where is Mikrotik Terragraph??

Wed Dec 16, 2020 10:06 pm

But can you share WHEN?
SInce 02/2019: https://blog.mikrotik.com/announcements ... graph.html ;-)
Almost two years later, here we are in 1Q 2021 and many vendors will be shipping Terragraph product.
Is Mikrotik going to have an announcement by then? Let alone shipping product?

Probably not. Unless they say something otherwise very shortly, they will be missing out on Terragraph revenue from lack of product.
 
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Re: Where is Mikrotik Terragraph??

Tue Dec 22, 2020 9:32 pm

We understand it's coming, but best not to be last to deploy. When should we start placing our orders for terragraph-level gear?

I hate the idea of committing to a vendor and then switching... If I hang cambium gear (the current leader...) then it's going to be difficult to hang mikrotik terragraph.

Can we get a target date? January? June?

We all need to make our plans and if Mikrotik can make a case to wait, I'll wait.

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