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luxfx
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Point-to-point between directional and omni?

Tue Mar 02, 2021 10:27 pm

At the bottom of my driveway I need to connect and power two cameras via POE. I have an electrical outlet available for the POE source but no physical network line, so I will be using wifi to connect this to my house. The distance is about 1/4 mile. I have a straight line-of-sight but with some leafy branches during much of the year.

I'm replacing a Ubiquiti setup that involved a wireless bridge between two Nanostation Loco M2's, with the one at the driveway paired with an omnidirectional AP for normal wifi access in that vicinity. These and my two cameras were powered by one POE switch. (e.g., three wifi devices, one POE switch)

I had initially looked at replacing these with a pair of SXTsq 5 ac (RBSXTsqG-5acD) at the house and driveway, and was looking for an access point to pair with the SXTsq at the bottom of the driveway, similar to my Ubiquiti setup. I was planning on powering these with a PowerBox Pro (RB960PGS-PB). However when looking, I found the OmniTIK 5 PoE ac (RBOmniTikPG-5HacD) and realized I could maybe eliminate two entire devices!

The question, then, is can I pair up a SXTsq and a Omnitik for point-to-point connection over that distance, and would the Omnitik be able to both communicate with the SXTsq as a point-to-point bridge as well as provide an omnidirectional access point from its location? I understand that transmission from the Omnitik will fade a lot more than if I had another SXTsq there, but I'm hoping a 1/4 mile isn't too far. What wireless modes would they both be set to?
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Re: Point-to-point between directional and omni?

Wed Mar 03, 2021 7:05 pm

(1) What was wrong with the ubiquiti products?

(2) Also, leafs can get in the way, which may be part of your issue?
Can you minimize that by culling some branches??

(3) In general but with no experience in such matters a chain is only as strong as its weakest link, all to say, sure the directional antenna can reach the omni and the omni can pass the signal to the cameras but how the heck is the omni going to reach back to the first antenna at like 500m with useful connectivity??

(4) For 500 meter link, why not look at these setups using 60hz
New cube pair, I dont think the 5ghz backup link would work over that distance but it may! No, I dont thing the 5ghz in it can be used for local coverage which would be tres cool (connect at 60, distribute locally over 5ghz.
https://mikrotik.com/product/wireless_wire_cube

At the cube site where the cameras are located, for local WIFI, this appears the most cost effective device to add if you want both 2.4 gig and 5gig coverage but these types incl metal too, have low 5ghz throughput.
https://mikrotik.com/product/RBGrooveGA-52HPacn

Better is the omnitik AC, unit which has a reasonable amount of throughput for cameras. Which if close to the cameras would do well. (2ghz not required).
https://mikrotik.com/product/rbomnitikpg_5hacd
 
luxfx
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Re: Point-to-point between directional and omni?

Wed Mar 03, 2021 8:23 pm

Something is failing with the Ubiquiti products, I'm still testing to try and figure out what. In general without a U security gateway or whatever I'm finding the U products harder to manage, and nearly everything else in my system is Mikrotik now, so *shrug*

I've had them up for two years and throughout the seasons the vegetation hasn't been an issue. It's winter here now and nearly zero vegetation in the way, so I don't think that's a cause of my Ubiquity issues. I'm hoping it won't be with a new setup.

(3) is exactly what I'm concerned about. Although I've found a page or two saying 3km for max on that omni 5 ac, I can't find anything in Mikrotik's current information about it.

I'll have to look and see what the advantage of that cube is. It's quite a bit more expensive but half the Mpbs. I do like that it runs off of 802.3af though!
 
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Re: Point-to-point between directional and omni?

Wed Mar 03, 2021 10:05 pm

Actually OP knows the correct solution. Bridge link with 2 SXTsq ac's. and locally distribute the wifi with another AP.

But for me there is no need for the PowerBox Pro if only the SXTsq ac and another AP is used. E.G. I would go for the SXTsq ac link and the new wAP ac (new= 2 ethernet ports !).
The 2nd wAP ethernet port gives you a free ethernet port, but has no PoE out unfortunately, so 2 power injectors will be needed (they are in the box) and a patch cable between the 2 injectors for the data-link.

Why I would not go for the Omnitik 5 ac (in Europe) ?
- Transmit power is limited by regulatory domain. This makes that the EIRP limit (27 dBm) is limiting the transmit power of any radio. The antenna gain does not help in the transmit power at the best direction, it is limited to 27 dBm. So the best signal from the SXTsq 5 ac is the same as any omnidirectional AP in all directions. What helps the reachability of the SXTsq is the antenna gain improving the signal strength while receiving. (While not picking up all those other transmitters in the neighborhood.) Even with it's 8 dBi antenna gain, the Omnitik could have difficulty receiving the SXTsq signal.if it is far away.
- The Omnitik 5 ac can only use "outdoor" frequencies (5500 MHz and up). If it is the only device for link and distribution, you will halve the throughput.
- The Omnitik is long range omnidirectional. It is not best for devices nearby but not in the donut shaped radiation pattern. It is not strong enough in dBi to receive very remote transmitters. The Omnitik might pick up the signal of many others.

SXTsq + wAP gives two devices tuned for the job. The Omnitik is long range and sits between the 2 specialized devices in, for its usability. The Omnitik has it's strengths as long range omnidirectional AP, with free ethernet ports. (Even PoE out with the right model) But that is not the need here, at least as I understand it.
But of course SXTsq ac + Omnitik 5 ac PoE combination will work also, and give extra powered ethernet ports.

With trees and leaves: be aware of the fresnel zone ! Free LOS is not enough, the fresnel zone must be unobstructed for a large part. No antenna gain can correct this problem.
 
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Re: Point-to-point between directional and omni?

Thu Mar 04, 2021 2:10 am

Very good information @bpwl, thank you! Fortunately I'm not in a neighborhood so noise from other pickups isn't an issue. I'll look for that newer version of the wAP ac, and do some research on the fresnel zone. Thanks!
 
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Re: Point-to-point between directional and omni?

Fri Mar 05, 2021 5:05 am

Of course I disagree with the master bpwl, but only because I expect to learn something!! ;-)
(1) , show me how sxt gets one 1gigabit connection like the cube does.
(2) also, why would you expect the wapac to outperform the omintik poe 5ac

Lets look at facts.....
wapac - Wireless 5 GHz Max data rate 867 Mbit/s
Wireless 5 GHz number of chains 2
Wireless 5 GHz standards 802.11a/n/ac
Antenna gain dBi for 5 GHz 2.5
Wireless 5 GHz chip model IPQ-4018
Wireless 5 GHz generation Wi-Fi 5

omni5ac
Wireless 5 GHz Max data rate 867 Mbit/s
Wireless 5 GHz number of chains 2
Wireless 5 GHz standards 802.11a/n/ac
Antenna gain dBi for 5 GHz 7.5
Wireless 5 GHz chip model QCA9892

IQCA9892 - DUAL-BAND 2X2 MIMO 802.11AC/ABGN WLAN SOC DATA SHEET
The IPQ4018 was the industry’s first single-chip Wi-Fi system-on-chip (SoC) to bring Wave-2 802.11ac features to a variety of home and enterprise networking products.

I would hazard to say the ipq4018 is older............??
 
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Re: Point-to-point between directional and omni?

Fri Mar 05, 2021 12:36 pm

Of course I disagree with the master bpwl, but only because I expect to learn something!! ;-)
(1) , show me how sxt gets one 1gigabit connection like the cube does.
(2) also, why would you expect the wapac to outperform the omintik poe 5ac
Hi Anav !

(1) SXT can't do that. Was there a need for this? Missed that one. OP talked about SXTsq, a low priced device that performs very well.
(I use them with a 40MHz free channel, 400Mps interface rate, 260 Mbps data rate)
(2) Well that depends:. Omnitik 5 ac will reach (can receive the client) further (twice the distance) than a wAP ac with the 6 dBi extra gain.
But for serving clients that is not always the need. The antenna gain comes with narrowing the RF field (donut shape) , and the overall RF energy radiated by a high gain antenna is smaller than a low gain antenna. (The EIRP is the same , however the total energy is the RP (Radiated Power) , not the EI (Equivalent Isotropically)-RP) For short ranges and in- or between buildings the lower antenna gain performs better in sending.
Using the Omnitik for both functions (backhaul and distribution) will share the radio and reduce the throughput.(but that is another setup)
The wAP should NOT be used for the backhaul function. It is cheaper, and probably better at serving the clients in this setup than the Omnitik. (Unless the clients are outdoor at a distance).

So the solution would be "SXTsq+wAP" or "SXTsq+Omnitik poe ac" depending on cabling requirements (poe), on range needed for client, budget, client supported channels, etc.
(I use RB260GSP (indoor) in some instances for comfort in cabling and PoE, and yes, more complex setups have a Powerbox Pro instead.)
Backhaul is "SXTsq 5 ac"-"SXTsq 5 ac" for P2P, and "SXT SA5 ac"-"SXTsq 5 ac" for P2MP (with protocol nv2 if needed)
 
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Re: Point-to-point between directional and omni?

Fri Mar 05, 2021 3:43 pm

Understood but I am considering my limited experience with streaming video and for me trying to squeeze every last drop of bandwidth yields best performance (stability and quality).
So concur the WAPAC is probably a better bet for very local service but standby the cube as a much more optimal way to get the signals back and forth. As usual it comes down to budget.
$=good enough $$=better.
 
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Re: Point-to-point between directional and omni?

Fri Mar 05, 2021 4:31 pm

The "Cube" is on my shopping list for better backbone connection towards the SXT SA5's based distribution points, once my internet uplink is faster than 100Mbps.( Today internet via multiple loadbalanced SXT LTE, maybe Starlink (SpaceX) added later this year.)

But maybe by then we have wifi 6E, with wide 6Ghz channels. 😁
 
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Re: Point-to-point between directional and omni?

Fri Mar 05, 2021 5:46 pm

You mention "LTE" word and I am here too :).
I must say that Directional antennas are great for P2P LTE... and to get proper speed people do stange stuff :)

#FUN

Aluminium... not give better Gain. Even when we use proper FLAT Tape.
photo4925095176951670868.jpg


But this plastic back you can replace with 40cm 18" small tv dish - this is perfect and works perfect :)
photo5046741514201442646.jpg


I wish for us big transfers :)
photo5046741514201442646-2.jpg

And some times we build professional Towers :)
tree.jpg
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Re: Point-to-point between directional and omni?

Fri Mar 05, 2021 5:50 pm

Ive got some 33.6K modems to help increase your speeds, egads 25Mpbs, thats like neaderthal ;-P
Mind you Poland is not going anywhere fast so I suppose its okay. I mean Polish teddy bears with short stubby legs.
Luv the pics though!!

When you get to my age bpwl, i dont think cheap I think what will make the customers SHUT THE F UP with their complaints LOL.
(customer1=spouse, customer2=m-in-law, customer3=child_in virtual_medicalschool customer4,5=pokerplayers..........)
 
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Re: Point-to-point between directional and omni?

Sat Mar 06, 2021 12:12 am

(Still trying to find that slide with the SXT and LHG antenna gain. Gain which varies with the frequency. Sometimes SXT is even better than LHG.)

#FUN and OFF TOPIC

I propose we send him a SXT LTE KIT, for at home. (Story was on national TV also)


'Top student' must climb high tree to take online class
Distance learning, all well and good, but in Siberia it can present you with unexpected challenges. Because his remote village receives only a 2G signal, 21-year-old Alexei Dudoladov, a student at the Omsk Institute of Water Transport, has to go 300 meters into the forest each time and climb an eight-meter-high birch tree.

<translated with deepl.com>
.
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Re: Point-to-point between directional and omni?

Sat Mar 06, 2021 12:33 am

Wow, thats dedication.
 
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Re: Point-to-point between directional and omni?

Sat Mar 06, 2021 1:43 am

(Still trying to find that slide with the SXT and LHG antenna gain. Gain which varies with the frequency. Sometimes SXT is even better than LHG.)
Brochure of lte module and RB like SXTR/LHG(G)R/LDFR have that info.
Metal back of LHGR give gain like LDFR, this is great tip.
Additional, some lte modules give differ Tx power.. means some lte modules can give more Gain then others.
 
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Re: Point-to-point between directional and omni?

Thu Jul 22, 2021 6:01 am

Actually OP knows the correct solution. Bridge link with 2 SXTsq ac's. and locally distribute the wifi with another AP.

But for me there is no need for the PowerBox Pro if only the SXTsq ac and another AP is used. E.G. I would go for the SXTsq ac link and the new wAP ac (new= 2 ethernet ports !).
The 2nd wAP ethernet port gives you a free ethernet port, but has no PoE out unfortunately, so 2 power injectors will be needed (they are in the box) and a patch cable between the 2 injectors for the data-link.

Why I would not go for the Omnitik 5 ac (in Europe) ?
- Transmit power is limited by regulatory domain. This makes that the EIRP limit (27 dBm) is limiting the transmit power of any radio. The antenna gain does not help in the transmit power at the best direction, it is limited to 27 dBm. So the best signal from the SXTsq 5 ac is the same as any omnidirectional AP in all directions. What helps the reachability of the SXTsq is the antenna gain improving the signal strength while receiving. (While not picking up all those other transmitters in the neighborhood.) Even with it's 8 dBi antenna gain, the Omnitik could have difficulty receiving the SXTsq signal.if it is far away.
- The Omnitik 5 ac can only use "outdoor" frequencies (5500 MHz and up). If it is the only device for link and distribution, you will halve the throughput.
- The Omnitik is long range omnidirectional. It is not best for devices nearby but not in the donut shaped radiation pattern. It is not strong enough in dBi to receive very remote transmitters. The Omnitik might pick up the signal of many others.

SXTsq + wAP gives two devices tuned for the job. The Omnitik is long range and sits between the 2 specialized devices in, for its usability. The Omnitik has it's strengths as long range omnidirectional AP, with free ethernet ports. (Even PoE out with the right model) But that is not the need here, at least as I understand it.
But of course SXTsq ac + Omnitik 5 ac PoE combination will work also, and give extra powered ethernet ports.

With trees and leaves: be aware of the fresnel zone ! Free LOS is not enough, the fresnel zone must be unobstructed for a large part. No antenna gain can correct this problem.
Dear bpwl
Hope you are all fine.
I’m going to deploy a small WISP in within Maximum 1 km radius around the access point and I would like your advice on the ideal choice of MikroTik equipment for a satisfactory service.
I have FTTH strong internet connection and want to install
3 unit mANTbox 15S and at the client side, installing a SXTsq Lite5. The bandwidth per customer will be max 5Mbps to 10Mbps Up/Down
or
suggest me any other Access point
Please share your reviews and experience so I will do the best.
Waiting for your kind response #BPWL
Thanks
 
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Re: Point-to-point between directional and omni?

Thu Jul 22, 2021 10:46 am

All hints and suggestions are free, and you should implement them at your own risk.

Too many parameters influence your success. The RF environment en clear LOS (Line Of Sight) in the Fresnel zone between the devices are of major importance.
I can only comment on my own implementation.

I have considered 3 x Mantbox15s as a 360° implementation, but after all they still do overlap a lot. (The 120° pattern is only indicating the 3 dBm reduction point). And there a quite some interfering neighbors.
So I ended up with 2 x SXT SA 5 ac, to cover 180°, as I not really needed 360° and the range was only 150 to 500 meters. 3 dBm reduction is nothing if the received signal is as strong as -33 dBm.
The other component was SXTsq ac. Tis combination gives me a stable 400Mbps interface rate with 40MHz channel width.
Design is to have at least 200Mbps peak data rates everywhere. (Therefor "lite" products where not in scope)

All this after experimenting, and some tree trimming. (No tuning can clear out a tree branche in the Fresnel zone)
The tree in the path to SXTsq1 needs trimming again.
Klembord-2.jpg
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miankamran7100
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Re: Point-to-point between directional and omni?

Thu Jul 22, 2021 2:59 pm

All hints and suggestions are free, and you should implement them at your own risk.

Too many parameters influence your success. The RF environment en clear LOS (Line Of Sight) in the Fresnel zone between the devices are of major importance.
I can only comment on my own implementation.

I have considered 3 x Mantbox15s as a 360° implementation, but after all they still do overlap a lot. (The 120° pattern is only indicating the 3 dBm reduction point). And there a quite some interfering neighbors.
So I ended up with 2 x SXT SA 5 ac, to cover 180°, as I not really needed 360° and the range was only 150 to 500 meters. 3 dBm reduction is nothing if the received signal is as strong as -33 dBm.
The other component was SXTsq ac. Tis combination gives me a stable 400Mbps interface rate with 40MHz channel width.
Design is to have at least 200Mbps peak data rates everywhere. (Therefor "lite" products where not in scope)

All this after experimenting, and some tree trimming. (No tuning can clear out a tree branche in the Fresnel zone)
The tree in the path to SXTsq1 needs trimming again.
Klembord-2.jpg
which access point are you Using for your client?
 
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Re: Point-to-point between directional and omni?

Thu Jul 22, 2021 8:00 pm

hAP ac2 or cAP ac inside, wAP ac outside. (hAP ac2 desktop standing gives some better reach indoors, but not always accepted as "black" thing if on the wall.)
SXTsq, hAP, wAP, cAP on CSS106 (RB260GSP) switch for clean installation and extra point of control (PoE). I do miss a log in the CSS106!

Just had some tenants in a holiday home pull the UTP cable on the hAP ac2, to do what ???? ("Dude" had seen it)
Could have had better control and better remote recovery with a hEX poE, but "holiday home budgets" are tight.

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