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symmat001
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Cube 60 Pro Series - 802.11ay

Thu Jun 24, 2021 3:28 pm

Hey Guys

Anyone else seen this too? Can't find any more information on release dates. Anyone with further information?

They reference the CPE as : Cube AC Pro (Right in photo)
They reference the sector as : CubeSA 60 pro AC (Left in Photo)

Image

Was presented in this video > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pqgfEs_4G6s
 
server8
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Re: Cube 60 Pro Series - 802.11ay

Sat Jul 24, 2021 11:12 am

wow I am curious to know hw specitifications like antenna beamwidth, numebr of clients, sfp port ecc
 
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Re: Cube 60 Pro Series - 802.11ay

Thu Jul 29, 2021 1:17 pm

too much silence :-)
 
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Re: Cube 60 Pro Series - 802.11ay

Thu Jul 29, 2021 11:53 pm

Looks like there are no Informationsminister the wild….
 
marekm
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Re: Cube 60 Pro Series - 802.11ay

Sun Aug 01, 2021 10:42 pm

Any ETA for these devices? Any hope for this summer (northern hemisphere)?
Will the new 802.11ay sector allow to connect up to 15 (not only 8 ) existing 802.11ad clients? (already on customers roofs, too much work to replace them all - but can replace the AP)
 
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Re: Cube 60 Pro Series - 802.11ay

Tue Aug 03, 2021 11:03 am

I can't explin myself how in the 60 ghz rush (ubiquiti is runnig faster and better) mikortik pubblish a video on youtube without supply any new info about the new hardware.
 
marekm
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Re: Cube 60 Pro Series - 802.11ay

Wed Nov 10, 2021 3:06 pm

Any updates on these devices? Another year or two, or never (good excuses: covid, chip shortages)?
Bandwidth is plenty, but max 8 stations per AP is a serious limitation of the current devices.
Or, would it be possible to connect more than 8 MT 802.11ad stations to some other vendor's 802.11ay AP (expensive, but available)?
 
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Re: Cube 60 Pro Series - 802.11ay

Wed Nov 10, 2021 3:35 pm

sss it's a secret hardware ;-)
 
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Re: Cube 60 Pro Series - 802.11ay

Wed Nov 10, 2021 4:34 pm

If this secret hardware won't be available for another year (or never), would it be possible for MT to allow connecting LHG60 stations (up to 30 of them) to the cnWave V5000 AP?
Or does every vendor have their own proprietary incompatible modifications of 802.11ad/ay which make such compatibility impossible?
 
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Re: Cube 60 Pro Series - 802.11ay

Wed Nov 10, 2021 4:52 pm

If this secret hardware won't be available for another year (or never), would it be possible for MT to allow connecting LHG60 stations (up to 30 of them) to the cnWave V5000 AP?
Or does every vendor have their own proprietary incompatible modifications of 802.11ad/ay which make such compatibility impossible?
No different radio chipset
 
marekm
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Re: Cube 60 Pro Series - 802.11ay

Wed Nov 10, 2021 5:14 pm

Different radio chipsets should still be able to talk the same wireless protocols over the air.
Unless the vendors choose to play the usual vendor lock-in game again...
(not only 60GHz - 802.11ax is supposed to have standard TDMA making proprietary TDMA protocols unnecessary - happily mixing radios from different vendors, too good to be true?)
 
DeDMorozzzz
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Re: Cube 60 Pro Series - 802.11ay

Sat Nov 13, 2021 12:26 pm

802.11 AD has a limitation of 8 clients, its not the mikrotik feature
 
marekm
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Re: Cube 60 Pro Series - 802.11ay

Sat Nov 13, 2021 7:28 pm

But do both sides have to support 802.11ay to connect more than 8 stations, or is it required only for the AP side? Will more than 8 old 802.11ad stations connect to a new 802.11ay AP?
Will mixed stations (some old 802.11ad, some new 802.11ay) connect to the same new 802.11ay AP? Or will I have to throw away all the 802.11ad devices and buy all new 802.11ay ones? (it's almost impossible, devices on customers roofs can't all be replaced overnight)
 
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Re: Cube 60 Pro Series - 802.11ay

Wed Feb 02, 2022 5:49 pm

Mikrotik, when are you planning to release them ???
 
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Re: Cube 60 Pro Series - 802.11ay

Wed Feb 02, 2022 10:05 pm

+ 1
 
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Re: Cube 60 Pro Series - 802.11ay

Fri Feb 18, 2022 1:05 am

now
 
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Re: Cube 60 Pro Series - 802.11ay

Fri Feb 18, 2022 3:23 am

With 802.11ay having a bigger bandwidth, I'm surprised that it's still limited to a Gigabit port. Although it would affect the depth of the unit, a SFP+ port might be handy..
 
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Re: Cube 60 Pro Series - 802.11ay

Fri Feb 18, 2022 8:04 am

With 802.11ay having a bigger bandwidth, I'm surprised that it's still limited to a Gigabit port. Although it would affect the depth of the unit, a SFP+ port might be handy..
I think these are only their first 802.11ay products. They will most likely be followed up by the larger dishes, and those are likely to have SFP+ interfaces.
 
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Re: Cube 60 Pro Series - 802.11ay

Fri Feb 18, 2022 8:46 am

 
server8
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Re: Cube 60 Pro Series - 802.11ay

Fri Feb 18, 2022 9:23 am

Some questions:

- how many clients 8,1 6 or more?
- half channel capable?
- prices?
- ETA?
- no SFP, only gigabit port on AP?
 
 
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normis
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Re: Cube 60 Pro Series - 802.11ay

Fri Feb 18, 2022 9:46 am

8 clients
no half channel
 
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normis
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Re: Cube 60 Pro Series - 802.11ay

Fri Feb 18, 2022 9:52 am

to clarify, these products are made to be terragraph compatible with a software update. they will be a part of TG network, so the port speed does not matter like with other regular 60GHz devices
 
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Re: Cube 60 Pro Series - 802.11ay

Fri Feb 18, 2022 10:03 am

Thx for answer but 8 clients and no half channel for 90° wide antenna (it's this right?) is a big problem for colocation. Is it gps synchronization able?
 
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normis
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Re: Cube 60 Pro Series - 802.11ay

Fri Feb 18, 2022 10:15 am

Yes, but not yet, when TG will be added, GPS will be also enabled.
 
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Re: Cube 60 Pro Series - 802.11ay

Fri Feb 18, 2022 10:25 am

Normis is mandatory to know asap the future TG specs:

- max number of clients for the AP
- half channel able
- TG compability for old legay 802.11ad antenna, if no we start to deploy only new hardware
- TG firmware ETA

We have to plan how deploy our 60 ghz network chosing hardware.

thank you a lot in advance.
 
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Re: Cube 60 Pro Series - 802.11ay

Sat Feb 19, 2022 11:21 am

http://wifi-shop.cz/img.asp?attid=1923334

some interesting info like 60° antenna pattern for the AP and 11° for the CPE, the gain @5ghz is too low to be used in real enviroment (single chain or dual chain 5 GHz antenna?).

Hope to see soon a dish CPE with more gain in both bands.

Support both protocol AD and AY, a sort of mixed mode or we can select the standard on the AP?

edit: reading well the PDF 5 GHz is only 1 chain :-(
 
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Re: Cube 60 Pro Series - 802.11ay

Mon Feb 21, 2022 7:00 pm

@normis thanks for the info. another promising product!

hoping you'll answer a couple more questions

For future TG compatibility, will that eliminate 'ad backwards compatibility? Important to know because I'll deploy ONLY 'pro' series products if that's the case.

Do you have additional products in this 'ay line arriving very soon? specifically, some sort of combined AP with wider overall beamwidth? Deploying 6x of a 60 degree sector is a bit cumbersome with all the cables and needing a 7+ port PoE switch etc.

TG support suggests automatic meshing and somewhat more omnidirectional AP units. I'd love to see more details and some estimated timelines.

Frankly, the draw to a product like cnwave is specifically the all-in-one AP/DN node to make for really clean installs. This is what has held back the mikrotik gen1 product which is a great product but not to pleasant to deploy in a TG type model. The mess on a customer's rooftop or pole.

I'd just like to pitch the idea that hardware first, TG later is a legit option for me and many. today, with gen1 products, you could build an IPv6/OSPF auto mesh with mikrotik 60Ghz gear (taking 60Ghz links out of a bridge and letting OSPF distribute routes...) and the only really problem there is the narrow sector or the somewhat problematic Gx3 model that's had a few connectivity hickups. Then tunnel back to the core. ie, IPv6/OSPF underlay which is darn close to TG anyway.

Thanks again. you guys are really innovating and I look forward to more!
 
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Re: Cube 60 Pro Series - 802.11ay

Mon Feb 21, 2022 7:08 pm

to clarify, these products are made to be terragraph compatible with a software update. they will be a part of TG network, so the port speed does not matter like with other regular 60GHz devices
This tracks with the assumption that there are some DN nodes with >1Gbps ports in them to inject capacity into the network.
 
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Re: Cube 60 Pro Series - 802.11ay

Mon Feb 21, 2022 11:55 pm

When will TG fw will be ready? Any ETA ?
 
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Re: Cube 60 Pro Series - 802.11ay

Tue Feb 22, 2022 8:40 am

I am start to thinkling that TG is a problem of license for mikrotik.
 
vmnx
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Re: Cube 60 Pro Series - 802.11ay

Tue Feb 22, 2022 2:06 pm

HIghly disapointed with 8 clients limit, This was due to 802.11ad standard. So with ay this should be gone, but Mikrotik implemented it's own limit :D
 
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Re: Cube 60 Pro Series - 802.11ay

Tue Feb 22, 2022 4:47 pm

HIghly disapointed with 8 clients limit, This was due to 802.11ad standard. So with ay this should be gone, but Mikrotik implemented it's own limit :D
I would imagine this is a software limitation in 'ad compatibility mode. That's a bit of the information I want to extract... what consequences does mixing 'ay and 'ad gear have? When they release a 'TG' firmware, do we have to replace all 'ad gear to turn that on? I actually expect this to be true, I just want confirmation. I'll just skip mixing the products if that's the case.
 
vmnx
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Re: Cube 60 Pro Series - 802.11ay

Tue Feb 22, 2022 6:47 pm

well, If you are right about compatibility, then there are two options, mixed mode and AY mode.
what is TG firmware? What benefits will it add?

HIghly disapointed with 8 clients limit, This was due to 802.11ad standard. So with ay this should be gone, but Mikrotik implemented it's own limit :D
I would imagine this is a software limitation in 'ad compatibility mode. That's a bit of the information I want to extract... what consequences does mixing 'ay and 'ad gear have? When they release a 'TG' firmware, do we have to replace all 'ad gear to turn that on? I actually expect this to be true, I just want confirmation. I'll just skip mixing the products if that's the case.
 
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Re: Cube 60 Pro Series - 802.11ay

Tue Feb 22, 2022 7:28 pm

well, If you are right about compatibility, then there are two options, mixed mode and AY mode.
what is TG firmware? What benefits will it add?
TG essentially requires some sort of mesh. once upon a time that meant ipv6 and open/r but that's been relaxed. I'm really not sure how this 'pro' hardware could even be reasonably used in a TG mesh with narrow beams without very very careful network design. Seems that there is a missing 'DN' unit I'm hoping they announce with multiple radios in it. Like Siklu's N366 unit for example.

At a minimum, 'TG mode' should allow something that looks a lot like a WDS mesh. APs can form adjacencies. Mikrotik already builds individual interfaces for 60G links so enabling those 'WDS' like adjacencies would go a long way for me. That would be 'enough'. ie, I could just use IPv6 and OSPF to build the entire network. I don't really need the rest of a 'TG' kit. Then use either BGP w/ IPv6 next hops for IPv4 for a native dual stack or GRE6 tunnel from CPE's dmarc port to the core for IPv4. either way, I'd rather have this mode sooner and that multi-radio unit.
 
vmnx
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Re: Cube 60 Pro Series - 802.11ay

Tue Feb 22, 2022 8:20 pm

That are very very complex things you are talking about :)

Simple good working PtP and PtMP are enough for me for now :)
 
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Re: Cube 60 Pro Series - 802.11ay

Tue Feb 22, 2022 10:52 pm

PtMP for more than 8 stations per AP, please! Why is it still so difficult to support 15?
TG looks like a complex beast that may take a long time before it is stable.
 
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Re: Cube 60 Pro Series - 802.11ay

Wed Feb 23, 2022 12:21 am

The range is short around 600m max 800m and the antenna is very small so 8 clients is good if we have GPSsync and we are able to put seveal APs in colocation on the tower. I can figure 2 or 3 ap for every 60 degree with 16 or 24 clients per 60° sector. Lower frequencies for the short range clients and higher for distant clients.

A lot of cables to manage and a lot of APs but it's not impossible to do.

It's insane ma it 'd work well but we need GPSsync to avoid interference between 60 ghz radio, in this scenario.5 ghz backup is not usable not enough free spectrum.
 
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Re: Cube 60 Pro Series - 802.11ay

Wed Feb 23, 2022 8:58 am

One issue with several APs at one location (other than co-location interference, as the radios don't have very good filters to reject strong signals on other channels) is that when some of them are full (8 stations already connected), an occasional station tries forever to connect to that AP without trying other APs which could accept it (have less than 8 stations connected, but slightly weaker signal). Sometimes this resolves itself in a few hours, other times it needs manual intervention (reboot of the full AP so some stations from it move elsewhere). Yes I use the same SSID everywhere, it simplifies the logistics (can have many CPEs aready prepared to install, waiting on a shelf - no need for technicians to know the encryption keys, etc.).
After this long wait (I've already lost the race in some places where larger competitors dig up the streets and offer GPON), and hearing that 802.11ay was supposed to raise the limit to 15, I'm disappointed to see the limit is still max 8 stations.
 
syadnom
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Re: Cube 60 Pro Series - 802.11ay

Wed Feb 23, 2022 5:57 pm

I don't really want to complain about the new product here, but marekm isn't wrong. 8 is a tough number with this as-is. TG isn't the only model but every model needs to balance sub count with coverage area. With the limited ranges of 60Ghz gear these aren't really rural deployments.

That said, GPS sync would all but cure the near channel interference be eliminating AP to AP interference and letting o2 absorption kill off most of the OOBE tx from clients to APs. That should allow us to stack channels up. I'd still like to know if these can do different polarities in hardware and golay codes and if the 'TG' firmware update opens up 15 connections.

Right now, these products are cool and interesting, but they don't dissuade me from deploying cnwave. I really wish they did. I'd love to get a hint on if there are other 'pro' gen2 APs coming in the short term.

Once we deploy a TG product in an area, that product will own that area for the foreseeable future. Everywhere I put in cnwave will be an area I cannot deploy mikrotik in pretty much permanently.

I understand if a new model is 6 months out or whatever, know that it's coming ASAP could help me decision making process...
 
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Re: Cube 60 Pro Series - 802.11ay

Wed Feb 23, 2022 7:13 pm

For other laypersons here.
802.11ay is a type of WLAN in the IEEE 802.11 family of Wi-Fi WLANs. It's an improvement on IEEE 802.11ad rather than a new standard.[3][4] It has a frequency of 60 GHz,[5] a transmission rate of 20–40 Gbit/s and an extended transmission distance of 300–500 meters. It includes mechanisms for channel bonding and MU-MIMO technologies.[2] It was originally expected to be released in 2017, but has been delayed until 2021.[6]

Where 802.11ad uses a maximum of 2.16 GHz bandwidth, 802.11ay bonds four of those channels together for a maximum bandwidth of 8.64 GHz. MIMO is also added with a maximum of four streams.[2] The link-rate per stream is 44 Gbit/s, with four streams this goes up to 176 Gbit/s. Higher order modulation is also added, probably up to 256-QAM.[7]

Applications could include replacement for Ethernet and other cables within offices or homes, and provide backhaul connectivity outside for service providers.[8]

802.11ay should not be confused with the similarly named 802.11ax that was officially approved in 2021. The 802.11ay standard is designed to run at much higher frequencies. The lower frequency of 802.11ax enables it to penetrate walls, something that the 11ay standard struggles to do.[/b][9] Although they boast similar speeds, thanks to much more spectrum, 802.11ay can achieve much higher speeds: 277 Gbit/s vs. ~3.6 Gbit/s (4 streams: 2x 160 Mhz @ 1.2 Gbit/s + 2x 80 Mhz @ 0.6 Gbit/s).[clarification needed]
 
vmnx
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Re: Cube 60 Pro Series - 802.11ay

Wed Feb 23, 2022 9:43 pm

404, We know how to read wiki, what is your point?
 
marekm
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Re: Cube 60 Pro Series - 802.11ay

Wed Jul 27, 2022 8:32 pm

Any idea when the limit of 8 stations per AP will be increased? The new 802.11ay standard was supposed to increase that limit to 15, it was the single reason why I was waiting for the new devices. What happened to that "Terragraph" thing? Other vendors already have such devices, but their APs are not compatible with MT stations (vendor lock-in once again, not much different from the old days of closed 5GHz TDMA protocols like nv2 or airmax). I'd be happy to replace just the AP to allow more stations to connect, but it's a pain to replace all stations already deployed on the roofs.
 
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Re: Cube 60 Pro Series - 802.11ay

Thu Aug 11, 2022 5:12 pm

Yes, but not yet, when TG will be added, GPS will be also enabled.
I guess gps is still not usable ?? Can't find satellite now..

edit : its working..
Last edited by prague on Mon Aug 15, 2022 10:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
server8
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Re: Cube 60 Pro Series - 802.11ay

Sat Aug 13, 2022 11:25 am

The HW is for sure able maybe is a Mikortik license problem with Terragraph:

interface/w60g/print
Flags: X - disabled, R - running
0 name="wlan60-1" mtu=1500 l2mtu=1600 mac-address=04:CE:14:FC:63:51 arp=enabled arp-timeout=auto region=no-region-set mode=ap-bridge physical-setup=static ssid="xxxxxxxx" frequency=58320 channel-bonding=off
default-scan-list=58320,60480,62640,64800,66960 force-freq=off password="xxxxxxxxx" firmware="" board-file="" mcs=0-15 beamforming=yes max-tx-queued-bytes=auto tx-ring-size=4096 rx-ring-size=1024 tx-power=default tx-sector=auto rx-power=default
put-stations-in-bridge=wlan1_60 isolate-stations=no terragraph-peer-mac=00:00:00:00:00:00 terragraph-fw-params=""

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