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ste
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New Frequencies for Germany

Thu Aug 30, 2007 2:33 pm

:D

Hi,

today RegTP announced that new frequencies are allowed for usage in Germany:

http://www.bundesnetzagentur.de/enid/5c ... html#12020

5.755MHz - 5875MHz with 36dBm (EIRP). So this is a big big message for us who
are allowed to use 20db in 2,4 and 30db in 5,4 so far. The usage conditions are
the same than in 5,4 but only for commercial usage.

So please MT we want to use it in 2.9.47 with our RB500/R52Hs.
Dont forget to allow turbo mode :D

Stefan
 
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Re: New Frequencies for Germany

Fri Aug 31, 2007 8:16 am

 
uldis
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Re: New Frequencies for Germany

Fri Aug 31, 2007 10:26 am

we need to know exact center frequecies for these new channels. Also we need to know how much should be decrease the tx-output for those frequencies since we support only TPC and not ATPC - currently it looks like we need to decrease it by 12.
 
ste
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Re: New Frequencies for Germany

Fri Aug 31, 2007 11:25 am

we need to know exact center frequecies for these new channels. Also we need to know how much should be decrease the tx-output for those frequencies since we support only TPC and not ATPC - currently it looks like we need to decrease it by 12.
Hi Uldis,

I've sent the norm ETSI EN 302 502 which is referenced in the official document
of RegTP to support. It describes the technical details.

I expect that this will come to other european countries as it's an european
document.

Stefan
 
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Re: New Frequencies for Germany

Fri Aug 31, 2007 11:42 am

Band 3 5725 - 5875 MHz (Channel 147, 151, 155, 167)

decrease it by 12 dB

By the power adjustment (Transmit power control, TPC) the average sum achievement is reduced and thus the influence on satellite receivers in the sum reduces. Fundamental requirements and Test procedures are in the European standard EN 302,502.
 
ste
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Re: New Frequencies for Germany

Fri Aug 31, 2007 12:19 pm

Band 3 5725 - 5875 MHz (Channel 147, 151, 155, 167)

decrease it by 12 dB

By the power adjustment (Transmit power control, TPC) the average sum achievement is reduced and thus the influence on satellite receivers in the sum reduces. Fundamental requirements and Test procedures are in the European standard EN 302,502.
36-12db = 24 would make it senseless. The only solution is to fulfill the requirements
of EN302502. And only the equipment which does this is usable/sellable.

Stefan
 
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Re: New Frequencies for Germany

Fri Aug 31, 2007 1:20 pm


36-12db = 24 would make it senseless. The only solution is to fulfill the requirements
of EN302502. And only the equipment which does this is usable/sellable.

Stefan

the regulation
is only for WISP (commercially uses ) not for private use
 
ste
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Re: New Frequencies for Germany

Fri Aug 31, 2007 1:58 pm


36-12db = 24 would make it senseless. The only solution is to fulfill the requirements
of EN302502. And only the equipment which does this is usable/sellable.

Stefan

the regulation
is only for WISP (commercially uses ) not for private use
Yes. I'm a WISP. I want to use it :o .

Stefan
 
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Re: New Frequencies for Germany

Fri Aug 31, 2007 9:10 pm


36-12db = 24 would make it senseless. The only solution is to fulfill the requirements
of EN302502. And only the equipment which does this is usable/sellable.

Stefan

the regulation
is only for WISP (commercially uses ) not for private use
Yes. I'm a WISP. I want to use it :o .

Stefan

Me too.....


dingsingo
 
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Re: New Frequencies for Germany

Sat Sep 01, 2007 9:55 am

Yes. I'm too a WISP... :mrgreen:
 
uldis
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Re: New Frequencies for Germany

Mon Sep 03, 2007 11:19 am

Band 3 5725 - 5875 MHz (Channel 147, 151, 155, 167)

decrease it by 12 dB

By the power adjustment (Transmit power control, TPC) the average sum achievement is reduced and thus the influence on satellite receivers in the sum reduces. Fundamental requirements and Test procedures are in the European standard EN 302,502.
36-12db = 24 would make it senseless. The only solution is to fulfill the requirements
of EN302502. And only the equipment which does this is usable/sellable.

Stefan
since we don't support ATPC the only way to add that is to decrease by 12db.
Another problem the 36 you can use for P-P and P-MP, but for MESH and AP-MP you should use 33. How to seperate it, because the software doesn't know exacty for what purposes you are using this radio. Only option would be create two new countries - one for P-P/P-MP an other for MESH/AP-MP.
 
ste
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Re: New Frequencies for Germany

Mon Sep 03, 2007 12:34 pm

Band 3 5725 - 5875 MHz (Channel 147, 151, 155, 167)

decrease it by 12 dB

By the power adjustment (Transmit power control, TPC) the average sum achievement is reduced and thus the influence on satellite receivers in the sum reduces. Fundamental requirements and Test procedures are in the European standard EN 302,502.
36-12db = 24 would make it senseless. The only solution is to fulfill the requirements
of EN302502. And only the equipment which does this is usable/sellable.

Stefan
since we don't support ATPC the only way to add that is to decrease by 12db.
Another problem the 36 you can use for P-P and P-MP, but for MESH and AP-MP you should use 33. How to seperate it, because the software doesn't know exacty for what purposes you are using this radio. Only option would be create two new countries - one for P-P/P-MP an other for MESH/AP-MP.
Hi,

is ATPC a big problem? Can it be scripted? If I understand it right it is simply to reduce
power as long as connections are working. In a point to point situation this will be
simple (and will help as 36db gives good backbone links). An AP with more clients
has no real chance to reduce power as he never knows when the station with the
weakest signal is turned on.

This MESH-NonMesh is typical european/german. Never try to keep things easy.
2 Countries would be ok. If you make a checkbox in Wirlesss-Interfaceconfig the users
in other countries would have to twiddle around with european specialties.

Stefan
 
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Re: New Frequencies for Germany

Mon Sep 03, 2007 7:09 pm

is ATPC a big problem? Can it be scripted?
Last time I checked, altering the TX power on the AP in ROS disconnects the CPEs - temporarily - which then have to re-associate. A script implementing ATPC would have that effect. That might render a "legally usable" system but a very annoying one that customers might not like (dropped VOIP calls, etc).

Also, I don't know if that's true on a "station" end - might have the same effect there too.

It might be that later wireless drivers don't have this problem, but I don't know.
Comments from MT people on this topcic would be welcome. Hopefully, they're already working on it ...

Regards
 
ste
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Re: New Frequencies for Germany

Tue Sep 04, 2007 9:22 am

is ATPC a big problem? Can it be scripted?
Last time I checked, altering the TX power on the AP in ROS disconnects the CPEs - temporarily - which then have to re-associate. A script implementing ATPC would have that effect. That might render a "legally usable" system but a very annoying one that customers might not like (dropped VOIP calls, etc).
Yes. But in a point to point situation with stable signal this is acceptable.
This system would need some time at startup. But shouldn't change power
very often after that.
Also, I don't know if that's true on a "station" end - might have the same effect there too.

It might be that later wireless drivers don't have this problem, but I don't know.
Comments from MT people on this topcic would be welcome. Hopefully, they're already working on it ...

Regards
Hopefully.

Stefan
 
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Re: New Frequencies for Germany

Wed Sep 05, 2007 11:35 am

But in a point to point situation with stable signal this is acceptable.
That's fine for a short link.
But not if it's a long link, where weather effects adversely affects the link margin.
This is one of the whole reasons for ATPC, the transmitter only puts out high power in fade conditions - means power can be lower in clear conditions hence lessening interference for other links/users.

I sincerely hope the MT guys can (or have) at least solve the "disconnect on TX power change" so that scripting can be implemented, or better still, implement "true" ATPC.

Hint to developers: put some user-programmable parameters (min, max power, hysteresis, on:off:manual) in any ATPC system, so that users can fix site-specific problems. We did this on some of our other (non-radio) wireless products and it proves invaluable.

Regards
 
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Re: New Frequencies for Germany

Wed Sep 05, 2007 2:14 pm

In one of the next RouterOS v3.0 we will add such two countries.
Country name: Germany 5.8 Fixed P-P	
Official Range:  5755-5875	
Bands: 5ghz,5ghz-10mhz,5ghz-5mhz	
		
	             Band	             Range
Frequency range:5ghz                5770-5860
	             5ghz-10mhz          5765-5865
	             5ghz-5mhz           5765-5865
EIRP with out ATPC max 24dBm(256mW)	
Country name:	Germany 5.8 Fixed AP	
Official Range:  5755-5875	
Bands: 5ghz,5ghz-10mhz,5ghz-5mhz	
		
	             Band	             Range
Frequency range:5ghz                5770-5860
	             5ghz-10mhz          5765-5865
	             5ghz-5mhz           5765-5865
EIRP with out ATPC max 21dBm(128mW)
 
ste
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Re: New Frequencies for Germany

Wed Sep 05, 2007 3:17 pm

In one of the next RouterOS v3.0 we will add such two countries.
Country name: Germany 5.8 Fixed P-P	
Official Range:  5755-5875	
Bands: 5ghz,5ghz-10mhz,5ghz-5mhz	
		
	             Band	             Range
Frequency range:5ghz                5770-5860
	             5ghz-10mhz          5765-5865
	             5ghz-5mhz           5765-5865
EIRP with out ATPC max 24dBm(256mW)	
Country name:	Germany 5.8 Fixed AP	
Official Range:  5755-5875	
Bands: 5ghz,5ghz-10mhz,5ghz-5mhz	
		
	             Band	             Range
Frequency range:5ghz                5770-5860
	             5ghz-10mhz          5765-5865
	             5ghz-5mhz           5765-5865
EIRP with out ATPC max 21dBm(128mW)
Thanks a lot.
Any plan to make ATPC?

Stefan
 
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Re: New Frequencies for Germany

Wed Sep 05, 2007 3:19 pm

in future, we will make it. Probably when we will move close for releasing final version of 3.0
 
ste
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Re: New Frequencies for Germany

Mon Jan 28, 2008 11:48 am

in future, we will make it. Probably when we will move close for releasing final version of 3.0
Hi Uldis,

we're at 3.1 ;-))).

this very valuable feature is still on the TODO-List?

Stefan
 
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Re: New Frequencies for Germany

Mon Jan 28, 2008 1:42 pm

yes it is, but we still have lot of other featured that need to be added before this specific feature.
 
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Re: New Frequencies for Germany

Tue Mar 11, 2008 4:47 pm

any news? We need ATPC here in germany!
 
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Re: New Frequencies for Germany

Tue Mar 11, 2008 7:16 pm

We need ATPC here in germany!
please, please :D
 
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Re: New Frequencies for Germany

Sun May 04, 2008 8:21 pm

I have discussed this theme with german authority. EN 302 502 (BFWA) is different from EN 301 893 (802.11a/h) in the following points:

1. TPC (german authority does not differ between mikrotik's TPC and ATPC - they speak *always* from ATPC) must have a dynamic range of 12 dB.

2. DFS does have some advanced radar pattern in comparsion to EN 301 893 (DFS from EN 301 893 *cannot* used for EN 302 502 without radar pattern modification)

3. Different allowed transmission power in point-to-point- and point-to-multipoint-installations (max. 36 dBm when devices complies to ATPC and advanced DFS) and mesh installations (max. 33 dBm when the same conditions fulfilled)

4. Only *registered commercial* providers are allowed to use EN 302 502. This registration is also possible to non-profit associations (german authority speaks here as "Antennenvereine" also known as "Bürgernetze")

ATPC is practically the second most stupid thing in the EN 302 502 (the most stupid thing is the 24-hours-DFS-breakdown). In long distance directional-radio installations will the "overpowered" cenario never appear. The received signal is *never* too strong. ATPC is a historical relict from 802.11a to reduce radio interferences in closed rooms (indoor practice). Applying indoor restrictions to a outdoor specialised European Norm is - simply spoken - mental deficiency. If the rx signal is strong enough applying to ATPC, the distance between both antennas is short enough to use a cat5 cable instead directional wireless ;-)

But - when the authority says this *must* be, so we comply with it or we cannot use EN 302 502. The entire question is: *When* does RouterOS implement ATPC??? Note that EN 302 502 will be implemented in most european countries as same in germany. So the ATPC-problem is *not* specific german.

I think, this TODO topic is more important as Mikrotik thinks today. I wonder about this sience ATPC is *also* required for EN 301 893 subchannel 2 with 30 dBm tx power. Without ATPC, only 23 dBm tx power for 5400 to 5700 MHz are allowed and *not* 30 dBm. If i search over this forum, ATPC was requested first time in november 2004. Now - near four years later - no ATPC here furthermore. I know, ATPC is possible with Atheros chipsets. Lancom have this and they write *own* drivers sience Atheros does not support VxWorks anymore. But, Lancom does not support EN 302 502 at this time.
 
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Re: New Frequencies for Germany

Mon May 05, 2008 11:52 pm

also from my side - please integrate ATPC :D

We really need it here in european countries (ETSI)
 
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Re: New Frequencies for Germany

Fri May 09, 2008 12:56 am

ATPC is often requested, and needed for some applications
separately,
DFS2 is aso required for USA in 5GHz bands.

Regards
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ste
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Re: New Frequencies for Germany

Fri May 09, 2008 7:59 am

Hi Mikrotik,

To insist: You implemented 1000 features since 2.9. But if I cant reach
customers cause I'm bound to 1W Eirp and cant use the separate
band with 4W Eirp, this features does not help. So please change your
priorities. First of all ROS is a Wireless OS. So please keep your eyes
on wireless features.

Stefan
 
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Re: New Frequencies for Germany

Sun May 11, 2008 6:59 am

First of all ROS is a Wireless OS. So please keep your eyes
on wireless features.
Actually, the name is "Router OS"... So I would think it's primary functionality is to be a router and wireless is the second function...
 
ste
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Re: New Frequencies for Germany

Sun May 11, 2008 9:24 am

First of all ROS is a Wireless OS. So please keep your eyes
on wireless features.
Actually, the name is "Router OS"... So I would think it's primary functionality is to be a router and wireless is the second function...
Cant speak for all here. But we've hundrets of Wireless systems and a handful without
wireless. Reading the posts I guess >90% MTs are wireless systems.
When there is a system which is capable of sending 4-Times the power in an unused
band because it can fulfill the European Regulations I will buy it if it's affordable. I would
like to buy it from MT but if I cant get it from MT I've no choice. So this thread is a
reminder that there is some work to do to keep customers happy :)

Stefan

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