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Ghassan
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setup more than 500 Links

Tue Mar 17, 2009 10:53 pm

Hello,

We are planning to move to a higher mountain far from our targets ( starting from 3 Km ~ 13 Km ) but it has a very clear sight .

What do you suggest to use or to just handle such 500 ap clients connected to our station . For example , each Ap-bridge can handle about 90 ap clients if we are selling 128k , 256k , 512k , 1024k .

I was told that about 500 buildings are on a 45 degrees .. so do you suggest us to install sectors at the station , Grid antennas , parabolic dish !!

Regards,
Ghassan
 
angboontiong
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Re: setup more than 500 Links

Wed Mar 18, 2009 1:32 am

seem like you have at least to install 6 x 60 degree sector antenna to serve all the client.
But, you may facing some issue if you customer distance more than 3 KM (is 90 user connected concurrently)
 
Ghassan
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Re: setup more than 500 Links

Wed Mar 18, 2009 1:42 am

seem like you have at least to install 6 x 60 degree sector antenna to serve all the client.
But, you may facing some issue if you customer distance more than 3 KM (is 90 user connected concurrently)
Do you have any solution for big network ?

What rb should I install or what wireless card should I go through >


Edit : Does HyperLink 2.4 GHZ Sector 20db with 90 degrees work for this solution at our side ... serving ap clients starting from 3km ~ 10 km ?
 
angboontiong
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Re: setup more than 500 Links

Wed Mar 18, 2009 12:34 pm

Hi...

Here is the few thing you have to consider...
1) What are the market segment you looking for?
2) What the charges you apply on them?
3) What's you CPE cost?
4) If the customer on time concurrently, what's the max traffic? this to calculate what frequency you should apply.
5) What's the labor cost and who are the one pay for it.

Only with that, we can share with you what's the next.
 
Ghassan
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Re: setup more than 500 Links

Wed Mar 18, 2009 1:04 pm

I was afraid of having a big network then I cant have a chance to handle that traffic so thats why I asked this question because we are getting many requests from heaps of customers so thats why we are moving to a high mountain to serve all users as they are all in 90 degrees area ..

I was thinking to install Rb411 at the client's side with a Grid antenna 24dB directed to the mountain ( for each customer as I said the distance starts from 3Km to 10 Km ) .

Probably 2.3 Ghz can travels more than 5 GHz ! if it has a clear sight of view as we are experiencing with intereference ( by doing a scan we can see more than 180 stations around us ) so I was planning to work on NSTREME that can acheive better performance with a guaranteed bandwidth .

For the Mountain , we can install parabolic dishes to make our signals strength stronger + RB433AH .

We already succeeded by installing a sector 20dB at the station with R52H serving about 92 ap clients [D-LINK 2100] but the distance was ranging from 100 meters ~ 2 Km and the traffic goes up to 11 Mbps working on 2.3 GHZ Turbo . Note that the client is using 3dB antenna by default and the signal was pretty good signal to noise [-52 ~ -80] .

We sell 32k/128k , 64k/256k , 128k/512k , 256k/1024k .

so What do you think ?

Regards,
Ghassan
 
Tbird
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Re: setup more than 500 Links

Wed Mar 18, 2009 10:03 pm

This can be done - actually we have done this on several projects already.

The limit on the AP is related to limitations on the protocol (CSMA) rather than throughput - when it comes to customers to be served. The practical limit we have found is around 40 subscribers pr AP - not that much related to the throughput you normally provide (for less than 2Mbps subscriptions at least). Rather than to move to proprietary protocols - and say goodbye to all standard CPE - like the cost effective Nano/Loco - these limitations can be solved, but I would stick to 5GHz - plenty spectrum and most CPE's can do this now (unlike 2.3GHz).

This is how we do it:
We put up APs with sectorized antennas - i.e. 3-4 units that may even cover the same area.

In standard (20 MHz) mode each can provide 20 Mbps + and a aggregated 60 to 80 Mbps total (probably more than your Internet pipe anyway).

The APs is used to backhaul 5 to 10 Microcell Units (Repeaters) each. On each of the Microcells we have a 5 GHz in-interface on a 20-23 dBi antenna and a out interface on a 5 GHz omni to connect the subscribers. The omni covers around 1 km or so and connects around 30 customers - perfect for Nano/Loco. This increases the number of connectible subscribers from ca 150 to close to 1000.

On the Microcells we also have a 2.4 GHz interface - this is slaved to a central HotSpot solution, giving you 200 + HotSpots to play with.

This is not theory - it's fielded and in operation - and works like a charm.

BTW, we never use units with external RF-cabling. Simply because units with integrated antennas works 100 times more reliable. Never any connectors with moist, no RF-loss and a lot easier and quicker to install...
 
Ghassan
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Re: setup more than 500 Links

Wed Mar 18, 2009 10:18 pm

This can be done - actually we have done this on several projects already.

The limit on the AP is related to limitations on the protocol (CSMA) rather than throughput - when it comes to customers to be served. The practical limit we have found is around 40 subscribers pr AP - not that much related to the throughput you normally provide (for less than 2Mbps subscriptions at least). Rather than to move to proprietary protocols - and say goodbye to all standard CPE - like the cost effective Nano/Loco - these limitations can be solved, but I would stick to 5GHz - plenty spectrum and most CPE's can do this now (unlike 2.3GHz).

This is how we do it:
We put up APs with sectorized antennas - i.e. 3-4 units that may even cover the same area.

In standard (20 MHz) mode each can provide 20 Mbps + and a aggregated 60 to 80 Mbps total (probably more than your Internet pipe anyway).

The APs is used to backhaul 5 to 10 Microcell Units (Repeaters) each. On each of the Microcells we have a 5 GHz in-interface on a 20-23 dBi antenna and a out interface on a 5 GHz omni to connect the subscribers. The omni covers around 1 km or so and connects around 30 customers - perfect for Nano/Loco. This increases the number of connectible subscribers from ca 150 to close to 1000.

On the Microcells we also have a 2.4 GHz interface - this is slaved to a central HotSpot solution, giving you 200 + HotSpots to play with.

This is not theory - it's fielded and in operation - and works like a charm.

BTW, we never use units with external RF-cabling. Simply because units with integrated antennas works 100 times more reliable. Never any connectors with moist, no RF-loss and a lot easier and quicker to install...

Why would you rather choose 5 GHZ and why you dont like 2.3 GHZ ?

Our target is to acheive more customers though your project is pretty good too but compared to our country :lol: we cant do it because the electricity isnt stable at all .. we will waste our time on putting batteries on all repeaters as you said .. but compared to your solution as our situation here we can install 4 sectors directly aligned to the same area , at the end user get his own ap client no one shares with him .

but im interested to do your work too here :)

Does anyone try to work on Wireless Full Duplex like putting 2 antennas on the same card by transmitting at the left antenna while receiving at the right antenna ?
 
Tbird
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Re: setup more than 500 Links

Wed Mar 18, 2009 11:05 pm

I did not say "I don't like 2.3GHz" - did I? - and not many cheap CPEs can do 2.3GHz I think.

For all ISP operations I've seen - the CPE cost is the killer. On a operation of 1000 customers - for every dollar saved on each CPE is - yeah, you get the picture... and if you are doing a lot of "up to 13 km" customers that means a lot of expensive CPE with 20 dBi + antennas...

If you would connect 1000 customers from same hill then - assuming 40 CPEs pr AP, it will still take 25 APs. Hmm, sounds like spectrum challenge also...

Well, like you said; you are planning this - we already done it.
Not much to comment on electricity - other than the customers PCs for Internet also needs it :D

Anyway, make sure you you have done all the budgets - honest recommendation.
 
Ghassan
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Re: setup more than 500 Links

Wed Mar 18, 2009 11:34 pm

Alright one more question to ask .. What do you think I can handle such traffic or guaranteed .. does NSTREME handles about 50 Mbps Real time using ptmp with a distance up to 13 Km ? and what band should I use to get this performance
 
Tbird
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Re: setup more than 500 Links

Thu Mar 19, 2009 12:58 am

Not quite sure I get you question here, but I'm always reluctant to recommend any proprietary systems or protocols - as they easily rules out other nice options. Nstreme is unbeatable for PtP - for sure, but I would choose other for AP/CPE or PtMP.

Like I said - the limitation is in the protocol when it comes to number of subscribers pr AP - not so much the capacity on 802.11 a/g. Consider; an AP can provide 20 Mbps - divided by 40 CPEs and a 10:1 congestion ratio will give you 5 Mbps pr customer - much more than you need. You would rather have 100 CPE's pr AP - but that's what the CSMA cannot offer.

If you use the AP to backhaul 7 Microcells/Repeaters each serving 30 CPEs - then you have 210 customers on that 20 Mbps AP capacity - still giving you close to 1 Mbps service pr customer on same congestion ratio. 4-5 of these setup, and you can hit 1000 customers on the setup.

All theory of course - but we found it to work nicely for us.

Another aspect will be the Internet pipe - can you actually get 50 Mbps? If you could, you would still have to spread it out on multiple AP. The Strix Nitro we use can do 100 Mbps full duplex - but I consider that most usable for PtP (or maybe for 3-4 multi-point setup).

Not sure if I answered anything for you here... :?
 
frontiersteve
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Re: setup more than 500 Links

Tue Mar 24, 2009 7:11 pm

"If you use the AP to backhaul 7 Microcells/Repeaters each serving 30 CPEs - then you have 210 customers on that 20 Mbps AP capacity - still giving you close to 1 Mbps service pr customer on same congestion ratio. 4-5 of these setup, and you can hit 1000 customers on the setup."

Are these microcell sites customers that you have negotiated with for space, and a connection? This plan does look like it has good chance for success.
 
xezen
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Re: setup more than 500 Links

Tue Mar 24, 2009 10:02 pm

backhaul 7 Microcells/Repeaters each serving 30 CPEs

not shore what this is can you send some pics or links with your antennas or cpes that you use on your ap as you sed you don use external rf cables

so how do you get you 30dbi and how do you get up th 3km-15km with that
what do you use on ap and as cpe?
If i dont No Ask someone That Does!
 
Ghassan
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Re: setup more than 500 Links

Fri Mar 27, 2009 1:38 pm

btw...

did anyone try to setup one station serving more than 100 ap clients .. the client has D-link 2100 .. some of ap clients has about more than 3 users per DLINK .

well I succeeded with it serving distances 3 km with a clear line of sight and the latency is good as I played with the R52H power settings by decreasing its power for the strong signals like 48Mbps , 54Mbps :D and my peak time are 8.2 Mbps Download with 1.8 Mbps Upload , average are 3.8 Mbps download with 800 Kbps UPload :) ...

As I said before , i have a sector 20db broadcasting on 2.3Ghz Super G which means up to 108 Mbps .. When I test my speed link through my webserver that has a speed tester .. it only has up to 20 Mbps . I only can see 20Mbps MAX at my link though I can see through my routerboard that every client has throughput as 50,000 . IS it real ? or can I go with more bandwidth .
I know that working on 2.4 GHZ is more stable than 2.3 GHZ but when we are talking about 2.3 GHZ then it travels more than 2.4 GHZ :( so thats why I did it like that .

My question again is can we fly with more bandwidth ptmp ?!

Edit : Wondering how the signal would be if we put 2 antennas at the same card like 2 sectors 20db ( one for receiving and the second one for transmiting ) !
 
maxster
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Re: setup more than 500 Links

Sun Apr 26, 2009 3:57 pm

Another aspect will be the Internet pipe - can you actually get 50 Mbps? If you could, you would still have to spread it out on multiple AP. The Strix Nitro we use can do 100 Mbps full duplex - but I consider that most usable for PtP (or maybe for 3-4 multi-point setup).
Hello Tbird, we are just about to purchase a few Strix Nitro links for a new project where we do have 100Mbps backhaul. I just wanted to know how they perform "out in the field"?

For PtMP APs we will use Mikrotik 433AH boards with SR5s in each 60 degree integrated distribution antenna and at each node we will place an RB1000 to manage traffic and provide authentication.

Any feedback about the Strix Nitro links would be appreciated.
 
RK
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Re: setup more than 500 Links

Mon Apr 27, 2009 6:41 am

For PtMP APs we will use Mikrotik 433AH boards with SR5s in each
Why would you use SR5s? Get the R5H or XR5.
 
maxster
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Re: setup more than 500 Links

Mon Apr 27, 2009 9:24 am

What would be the benefit of the high powered cards in a distribution scenario?
 
RK
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Re: setup more than 500 Links

Mon Apr 27, 2009 7:09 pm

What would be the benefit of the high powered cards in a distribution scenario?
The XR5 and the SR5 cost the same, and the XR5 is the better card.
Both the XR5 and the R5H (which costs much less) have better receive sensistivity and filtering than the SR5.
 
maxster
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Re: setup more than 500 Links

Mon Apr 27, 2009 8:03 pm

That's good to know - thanks.
I thought that MT were having trouble with their radio cards initially but I suppose by now all those issues have been resolved.
 
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Re: setup more than 500 Links

Tue Apr 28, 2009 10:02 am

That's good to know - thanks.
I thought that MT were having trouble with their radio cards initially but I suppose by now all those issues have been resolved.
R5H is improved in all regards, and is a superb card with superior sensitivity and ESD protection features.
No answer to your question? How to write posts
 
mperdue
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Re: setup more than 500 Links

Thu Apr 30, 2009 8:37 pm

I read this topic with much interest. I have deployed several hundred ap's now using a single omni and a 5.8mhz back all link on each radio. I am to the point I need to sectoral two of my relay sites because they are both pushing 50 ap's each. I have been running voip services to my customers over the links which have worked good for several relays that have 10-20 ap's but on the two ap's that I have 50 clients on it's just no longer reliable.

I have a question that is a little off topic but is related to the latest post. In regards to the radios such as xr5, R5h etc etc how do the Engenius EMP-8602 cards rank? So far for me they have been excellent with several clients that are 16 and 13 miles away (15 db ant) to a omni (12db) that are holding up at -75 (16 miles) and -74 (13 miles).

When I change to the sector antennas I had planed to deploy the XR2's at the suggestion of my current vendor. But I've been hesitant. At the moment everything I have are the EnGenius radio's.
 
Tbird
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Re: setup more than 500 Links

Fri May 01, 2009 9:46 pm

Another aspect will be the Internet pipe - can you actually get 50 Mbps? If you could, you would still have to spread it out on multiple AP. The Strix Nitro we use can do 100 Mbps full duplex - but I consider that most usable for PtP (or maybe for 3-4 multi-point setup).
Hello Tbird, we are just about to purchase a few Strix Nitro links for a new project where we do have 100Mbps backhaul. I just wanted to know how they perform "out in the field"?

For PtMP APs we will use Mikrotik 433AH boards with SR5s in each 60 degree integrated distribution antenna and at each node we will place an RB1000 to manage traffic and provide authentication.

Any feedback about the Strix Nitro links would be appreciated.
I don't frequent this forum anymore maxster - and obviously cannot say anything about Strix Nitro without being banned from the forum again. You'll find me at UBNT forum...
 
maxster
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Re: setup more than 500 Links

Fri May 01, 2009 10:57 pm

I don't frequent this forum anymore maxster - and obviously cannot say anything about Strix Nitro without being banned from the forum again. You'll find me at UBNT forum...
Sorry to hear that Tbird. What's your username on the UBNT forum?
 
Tbird
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Re: setup more than 500 Links

Fri May 01, 2009 11:32 pm

I don't frequent this forum anymore maxster - and obviously cannot say anything about Strix Nitro without being banned from the forum again. You'll find me at UBNT forum...
Sorry to hear that Tbird. What's your username on the UBNT forum?
Nah, don't be - I'm not :D

Same Tbird on UBNT also...

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