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pkcie
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37Km Backhaul link with 29Db Jirous Dual-polarized parabolic

Wed Jun 09, 2010 1:31 am

I am having some problems with throughput on this link.I have 4 R5H on 2 Rb600 running 4.10 at either end.

The firmware on both the routers is 2.27
Signal hangs around -60 to -52
54Mbps/54Mbps
CCQ is avg 80+ on both ends
Bandwidth test one way get's 18Mb
One radio is on 5180 Ghz
and the other is 5745 Ghz

I have disabled one of the radios to show how much throughput one radio can pass.
I have tried all of the 5ghz spectrum just in case of interference with still the same poor throughput.
The link below is of the vertical polarity.
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Re: 37Km Backhaul link with 29Db Jirous Dual-polarized parab

Wed Jun 09, 2010 7:03 am

what ack value are you using?
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Re: 37Km Backhaul link with 29Db Jirous Dual-polarized parab

Wed Jun 09, 2010 11:59 am

Hi lukkes The ACK is set to default.
 
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Re: 37Km Backhaul link with 29Db Jirous Dual-polarized parab

Wed Jun 09, 2010 12:21 pm

post configuration
 
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Re: 37Km Backhaul link with 29Db Jirous Dual-polarized parab

Wed Jun 09, 2010 2:45 pm

Manually set both ends to work at 24mbps, and set the ack on both ends to 410. then make the bandwidth test again, make this test with the two radios radios but not at the same time, (first one then the another but disabling the first one,) excuseme english it's not my primary language....
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Re: 37Km Backhaul link with 29Db Jirous Dual-polarized parab

Thu Jun 10, 2010 4:23 am

RF signal reflection ?

I have seen very similar results from units where the receivers were actually receiving reflections off a nearby rock face and tin roofs.
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Re: 37Km Backhaul link with 29Db Jirous Dual-polarized parab

Thu Jun 10, 2010 12:16 pm

I Manually set both ends to work at 24mbps, and set the ack on both ends to 410.
CCQ was 98/98%
24/24MB
P Throughput 18146 kbps

Bandwidth test on vertical radio 12.8 Mbps Recieve.

Bandwidth test on the same radio Sending only 13.0 Mbps.

Bandwidth test Both 2.0 Mbps/2.1 Mbps

Bandwidth test on the Horizontal radio.

Bandwidth test Both 2.1 Mbps/2.0 Mbps

Ill post the config files soon.
Thanks for the help ill post some images of the setup as well.
Next step is change the R5H for R5HN or XR5.
 
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Re: 37Km Backhaul link with 29Db Jirous Dual-polarized parab

Thu Jun 10, 2010 1:53 pm

As i haven’t used these before but my comment is, I generally don't like limited bandwidth spec on a unit in this case the bandwidth quoted is 5.45-5.9 for the parabolic, and doing a full bandwidth scan on this unit could give misleading results ?

28dBi may look good but even when a low loss link rf cable is used ( Radio card + pigtail + LMR400 1m ) the loss's really add up, from my own experience a 24dbi grid had a 1m lmr400 cable and signal was -62 , tried two others still the same but when i bypassed the lmr400 my signal went to -55, from calculations insertion attenuation should be 0.3db?, but why 7db my guess is impedance mismatch of the link lead and it may not be 50ohm as quoted in spec,

The next links I am ordering is grid again rather than parabolic, this is mainly due to lower wind resistance not gain, parabolic is great if you have a tower to bolt them onto or if you can locate them in a sheltered area, below is the grid (26dBi+433 box) I will be using. I am sure some supplier will soon use a 30+ dbi grid with box mounted onto back of the grid so no link lead needed.

N21roadie

(ps- which county in ire- im in limk)
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Re: 37Km Backhaul link with 29Db Jirous Dual-polarized parab

Fri Jun 11, 2010 5:18 am

I Manually set both ends to work at 24mbps, and set the ack on both ends to 410.
CCQ was 98/98%
24/24MB
P Throughput 18146 kbps

Bandwidth test on vertical radio 12.8 Mbps Recieve.

Bandwidth test on the same radio Sending only 13.0 Mbps.

Bandwidth test Both 2.0 Mbps/2.1 Mbps

Bandwidth test on the Horizontal radio.

Bandwidth test Both 2.1 Mbps/2.0 Mbps

Ill post the config files soon.
Thanks for the help ill post some images of the setup as well.
Next step is change the R5H for R5HN or XR5.
so we can say that your problem it's solved or not? my recommends was only for test, you can adjust your ack and rate for better works,
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Re: 37Km Backhaul link with 29Db Jirous Dual-polarized parab

Mon Jun 14, 2010 11:23 am

Hello, I have a similar setup, 40 chilometers, but with XR5 in turbo mode frequency.
With the H-POL I have 40 Mbit of TCP (one-way) troughtput.
With the V-POL I have 30 Mbit of TCP (one-way) troughtput.
The antenna is the same, but I have 4 XR5 running in 4 RB411AH and balanced with OSPF.
100% ccq over the H-POL and 90-95% over the V-POL.
 
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Re: 37Km Backhaul link with 29Db Jirous Dual-polarized parab

Wed Jun 16, 2010 1:29 pm

The problem is not resolved still have very poor throughput :-(
Hi Welan thanks for your input i will be changing the R5H for the XR5's.
n21roadie we are Based in Kerry.

I will post a update once we change the radios.
 
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Re: 37Km Backhaul link with 29Db Jirous Dual-polarized parab

Wed Jun 16, 2010 5:38 pm

Do you test link with enable nstreme?
 
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Re: 37Km Backhaul link with 29Db Jirous Dual-polarized parab

Wed Jun 16, 2010 11:12 pm

Well neighbour ( ye were lucky on Sunday in the replay but we (Limk) will win next match <g> )

I would like to help out if i can as i will shortly have to install a 70Km+ link,
Have you tried v3.30, and TCP instead of UDP for bandwidth testing,

Have you spaced the parabolic far enough away from other stuff on the mast ( AP's etc, PTP's, etc)

Can you post your freq usage scan, this should reveal how much of the spectrum is used at each location,


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Re: 37Km Backhaul link with 29Db Jirous Dual-polarized parab

Sat Jun 19, 2010 2:58 pm

Well neighbour ( ye were lucky on Sunday in the replay but we (Limk) will win next match <g> )
We were lucky on Sunday in the replay all right (skin of our teeth) Cork should have won it on the day i thought they were a better team.

I would like to help out if i can as i will shortly have to install a 70Km+ link,
You running a link from Limerick to Kerry :-)

Have you tried v3.30, and TCP instead of UDP for bandwidth testing,
Tried both and same results around 2.5Kbps (both)

Have you spaced the parabolic far enough away from other stuff on the mast ( AP's etc, PTP's, etc)
Ya we are at the tip top of the mast so nothing near (there is a good Front to Back on the Antenna's ≥ 43 dB)

Can you post your freq usage scan, this should reveal how much of the spectrum is used at each location,

I have done a scan and picked the cleanest Channels signal to noise on the both links hangs around 30dBm.

We are going to start with the basic stuff of changing pigtails and radios hopefully that will show something.


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Re: 37Km Backhaul link with 29Db Jirous Dual-polarized parab

Sat Jun 19, 2010 3:01 pm

Do you test link with enable nstreme?
We did not try Nstreme id like to get just one link Horizontal or vertical passing some half decent bandwidth before we try Nstreme.
 
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Re: 37Km Backhaul link with 29Db Jirous Dual-polarized parab

Sat Jun 19, 2010 3:05 pm

Hello, I have a similar setup, 40 chilometers, but with XR5 in turbo mode frequency.
With the H-POL I have 40 Mbit of TCP (one-way) troughtput.
With the V-POL I have 30 Mbit of TCP (one-way) troughtput.
The antenna is the same, but I have 4 XR5 running in 4 RB411AH and balanced with OSPF.
100% ccq over the H-POL and 90-95% over the V-POL.
Hi Welan
Thanks for the info i will switch out the R5H forXR5 this week.
 
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Re: 37Km Backhaul link with 29Db Jirous Dual-polarized parab

Sat Jun 19, 2010 9:33 pm

Have you tried testing at say 10kms and then at 20kms and finally 37kms comparing bandwidth, this eliminates any radio card issues and location, You mentioned a clean frequency usage scan but be aware the scan only displays frequency usage by 802... compliant gear and not the non compliant stuff, spectrum analyzer is the only way to know how crowded the band at the location really is.

It maybe a tx vs rx issue at both ends, where the tx is swamping the incoming signal, by reducing the data rate increased the tx power power, R5h goes from 20 to 24db @24, hence your ccq went from 80+ to 90+,

I am a little confused then did you conduct the reading at 24 or 54 when your posted vert receive @ 13/ vert send 13....etc?

I am using XR5's and find them good,in actual fact all my PTP + Ap's use XR5's and all of the cpe's use UB5, i don't use mikrotik cards,

R5h = @54 = 20db
XR5 = @54 = 23db

ack timeout i use nstreame with dynamic, check
http://forum.mikrotik.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=37812


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Re: 37Km Backhaul link with 29Db Jirous Dual-polarized parab

Thu Jun 24, 2010 8:51 pm

For me it looks like internal interference (propably separation problem), your singnal levels are rly good for this range, try changing cards to normal ones (~100mw), dont use any with amplifiers, they cause more peoblems than benifits if they are in close to each other, then try running test, if still problems, reduce tx powers to like 10dbm. Propably separation problem. This should help. Dont waste money on higher tx power cards.
 
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Re: 37Km Backhaul link with 29Db Jirous Dual-polarized parab

Fri Jun 25, 2010 3:12 pm

Question -

Bandwidth tests done on vertical with horizontal card disabled or active during the tests,
Same for Hor tests - was vert on/off

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Re: 37Km Backhaul link with 29Db Jirous Dual-polarized parab

Fri Jul 02, 2010 12:07 pm

Test's were done separate.
Radio A (Vertical) disabled then test was done on the horizontal radio.Vice a versa for the horizontal radio.
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Re: 37Km Backhaul link with 29Db Jirous Dual-polarized parab

Fri Jul 02, 2010 6:26 pm

WHOA! How did you get that 3d persepective view in RadioMobile? I use that every day and have never seen that! NICE!
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Re: 37Km Backhaul link with 29Db Jirous Dual-polarized parab

Fri Jul 02, 2010 10:04 pm

I can see now from 3d graph - 10/20 Kms test cannot be done unless you use a boat <g> or go straight across the bay,

Let us know how the Xr5 compare to the R5h,

Also i use nstreame and i find it good and a lot of positives by other posters on the forum using ptp links,

And as you are transmitting over water, perhaps a read of this topic might be of interest ?
http://forum.mikrotik.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=31644,

must call down, ky is a lovely county on a good day,


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Re: 37Km Backhaul link with 29Db Jirous Dual-polarized parab

Sat Jul 03, 2010 1:07 am

WHOA! How did you get that 3d persepective view in RadioMobile? I use that every day and have never seen that! NICE!
Hi Just click on Picture properties (14th icon from the left ) then 3D on the right .Like all things in RM took me a while to figure it out.
 
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Re: 37Km Backhaul link with 29Db Jirous Dual-polarized parab

Sat Jul 03, 2010 1:10 am

I can see now from 3d graph - 10/20 Kms test cannot be done unless you use a boat <g> or go straight across the bay,

Let us know how the Xr5 compare to the R5h,

Also i use nstreame and i find it good and a lot of positives by other posters on the forum using ptp links,

And as you are transmitting over water, perhaps a read of this topic might be of interest ?
http://forum.mikrotik.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=31644,

must call down, ky is a lovely county on a good day,


n21roadie
I have a boat but the rocking might cause a bit of multipath :-0.
Thanks for the link ill check it out.
Don't come wearing the Lim colors you might be tied to a 100Meter mast.
 
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Re: 37Km Backhaul link with 29Db Jirous Dual-polarized parab

Sat Jul 03, 2010 6:10 am

WHOA! How did you get that 3d persepective view in RadioMobile? I use that every day and have never seen that! NICE!
Hi Just click on Picture properties (14th icon from the left ) then 3D on the right .Like all things in RM took me a while to figure it out.
My network names keep ending up in the sky on the 3d picture. How do i make that work like yours, where the link line is actually where the signal is going, not a mile above the land?

Do you mind posting the settings you used in the 3d picture window so I can try to duplicate your nice one, mine keeps looking funny/

Thank you!
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Re: 37Km Backhaul link with 29Db Jirous Dual-polarized parab

Sat Jul 03, 2010 11:31 am

WHOA! How did you get that 3d persepective view in RadioMobile? I use that every day and have never seen that! NICE!
Hi Just click on Picture properties (14th icon from the left ) then 3D on the right .Like all things in RM took me a while to figure it out.
My network names keep ending up in the sky on the 3d picture. How do i make that work like yours, where the link line is actually where the signal is going, not a mile above the land?

Do you mind posting the settings you used in the 3d picture window so I can try to duplicate your nice one, mine keeps looking funny/

Thank you!
Try this to see if it helps.
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Re: 37Km Backhaul link with 29Db Jirous Dual-polarized parab

Mon Jul 05, 2010 3:31 pm

Don't come wearing the Lim colors you might be tied to a 100Meter mast.
what can i say - so close and yet so far ?

Looking at your 3d map, not sure if this revelant but i noticed the rx sensitivity 0.75uv / -109.5dbm ?
thought radio cards went down to -95 +/- , and not -109.5, also the tx power of r5h @54 is 20dbm, sensitivity -82dbm @54,i would also allow 2db cable/line loss,
Hello, I have a similar setup, 40 chilometers, but with XR5 in turbo mode frequency.
With the H-POL I have 40 Mbit of TCP (one-way) troughtput.
With the V-POL I have 30 Mbit of TCP (one-way) troughtput.
The antenna is the same, but I have 4 XR5 running in 4 RB411AH and balanced with OSPF.
100% ccq over the H-POL and 90-95% over the V-POL.
Along with Xr5 and turbo,is nstreame used, what frequencies used ( you are using 5180-5745 ),
Have you tried reducing the frequency spacing as the antenna bandwidth spec is quoted 5.4-5.7?
What was the signal levels at 5180 and at 5745.


I don't use radio mobile - can you send on link to download , I use http://www.ligowave.com/linkcalc/
just register free to use, i must compare both,


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Re: 37Km Backhaul link with 29Db Jirous Dual-polarized parab

Thu Jul 08, 2010 11:36 am

Don't come wearing the Lim colors you might be tied to a 100Meter mast.
what can i say - so close and yet so far ?
Ya maybe next year was a close game though.

Looking at your 3d map, not sure if this revelant but i noticed the rx sensitivity 0.75uv / -109.5dbm ?
thought radio cards went down to -95 +/- , and not -109.5, also the tx power of r5h @54 is 20dbm, sensitivity -82dbm @54,i would also allow 2db cable/line loss,
I just used that to show the LOS and vast expanse of water.
Hello, I have a similar setup, 40 chilometers, but with XR5 in turbo mode frequency.
With the H-POL I have 40 Mbit of TCP (one-way) troughtput.
With the V-POL I have 30 Mbit of TCP (one-way) troughtput.
The antenna is the same, but I have 4 XR5 running in 4 RB411AH and balanced with OSPF.
100% ccq over the H-POL and 90-95% over the V-POL.
Along with Xr5 and turbo,is nstreame used, what frequencies used ( you are using 5180-5745 ),
Have you tried reducing the frequency spacing as the antenna bandwidth spec is quoted 5.4-5.7?
What was the signal levels at 5180 and at 5745.
We Swapped the radios for R52HN's and the best frequency's (most stable) are 5700 and 51800 not that we have much choice because most are taken up on the mast.

Here are the results not perfect but much better than before.



I don't use radio mobile - can you send on link to download , I use http://www.ligowave.com/linkcalc/
just register free to use, i must compare both,

Here ya go http://www.g3tvu.co.uk/Radio_Mobile.htm
I use the ligowave calc as well nice software.



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Re: 37Km Backhaul link with 29Db Jirous Dual-polarized parab

Thu Jul 08, 2010 4:27 pm

With the R52HN cards throughput up but ccq is down, I believe to date MK 802.11n has/had issues ?
http://forum.mikrotik.com/viewtopic.php ... nk+using+n

Not sure if this still is a issue but either way i would stick with a setup known to work like 802.11a turbo, nstreame, adaptive noise immunity, reduce data rates to improve ccq, until n is sorted out, I try to install a tested working equipment configured and ready for install on a hill,

At a guess was the client -76dbm the 5180, and -62 the 5700, if yes antenna gain

A possible option is to have one polarity using r52hn cards and the other polarity XR5 cards, and it follows one polarity N std and the other A-turbo, ??


Thanks for the link

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Re: 37Km Backhaul link with 29Db Jirous Dual-polarized parab

Tue Jul 13, 2010 12:37 pm

Thanks for the link for the R52HN i managed to get the link even better form a few tips on there.

(A possible option is to have one polarity using r52hn cards and the other polarity XR5 cards, and it follows one polarity N std and the other A-turbo, ??)

Reason we went for the R52HN was there were no XR5 available at the time i have some XR5 now :-) so i can try as you suggest on the link that is easy to get at.

(At a guess was the client -76dbm the 5180, and -62 the 5700)

Yes

Thanks for the advice etc i appreciate it.
 
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Re: 37Km Backhaul link with 29Db Jirous Dual-polarized parab

Tue Jul 13, 2010 8:50 pm

(At a guess was the client -76dbm the 5180, and -62 the 5700)

Yes
Ok - you have a swing of 14dbm on the link using those frequencies which illustrates to me the importance of having full spectrum antenna's, it will be interesting how both frequencies will handle the fade margins and which would drop first during bad weather,(snow,Ice),

I must call down to compare notes, pity no PM here, so email n21roadie[at]hotmail[dot]com,
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