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GolemPL
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Poor performance after upgrade from 3.x to 4.11

Fri Oct 01, 2010 8:02 am

Im started having problem after upgrade to 4.11 from 3.11/3.25.
I had working link since 1 year, no single downtime, signal -71 on both sides, ccq 80% both, jumps to 65% under heavy loads. Link real performance was 20Mbit/s 2400kB/s while downloading from ftp,
bit smaller while uploading. 1 side was RB433 with Mikrotik 3.11 , other side RB433 with Mikrotik 3.25. Distance is 9.2KM. Fresnel a bit obstructed.
I was very happy from link, it was rock solid, it never disconnected, even during heavy snows. Link runs with Nstream on.
Today I decided to upgrade to 4.11. Upgrade succeded, but link started to disconnect freqently.
Log been showing Not pooled for too long, i tried to disable WPA security, it did help to make link reconnect faster but still having Log says extensive data loss or class 2 frame received (6),
CCQs now jumping 20%-80% , tx rx rates also from 6mbit to 36mbit. I exclude hardware/antenna/connectors problem, it been working perfectly until upgrade. Also there are no mistakes or bad antenna installation, also there is no interference from unknown sources or from other antena on same tower. I tried increase hw retries but looks no difference.
What reason it could be ?
Can I downgrade to 3.16/3.30 without problems ?
 
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normis
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Re: Poor performance after upgrade from 3.x to 4.11

Fri Oct 01, 2010 10:10 am

search the forum for hw-retries

discussed many times
No answer to your question? How to write posts
 
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Re: Poor performance after upgrade from 3.x to 4.11

Tue Oct 05, 2010 4:52 am

Figured id try a couple N cards on a new link so I figured id give the 5rc1 a try for shi%ts and giggles.. Not a production link yet, so figured id be good to play for a couple days.. My entire network is running 3.30 flawlessly. Added one N card to a production board that also has an XR5. Long story short. Wasnt impressed with the N cards as expected mostly due to the low signal quality of the link and not a clear fresnel. Will put them in HORZ when I get a chance. My point that im trying to get at, is that my production link on that one board with the XR5, wasnt happy with the CPE being 3.30 obviously so I had to upgrade it aswell. 5rc1 on both sides was a no go.. Bandwidth was horrible, signal quelities were all over the place when link was under load. Link could not maintain a float for more than a couple secs under load. Treid all the wireless protocols in it.! This link had 100% tx/rx levels with and without loads on 3.30 , rock solid link!!

As I was playing with this late sunday, I had to get this link back up stable by Monday morning.. I also didnt want to kill the N link on that new link so I had to atleast keep 4.x on main AP in order for it to recognize the N card. Tried main AP and XR5 CPE both on 4.11 and crappy levels again, almost no bandwidth etc etc not usable. Tried many different freqs to no avail.. Then tried 5rc1 -> 4.11, same no go results. tried 5rc1 -> 3.30 same no go. Tried all the combinations possible. Nothing compared to 3.30 -> 3.30.. I finally settled on the only other workable setup being, 4.11 -> 3.30. This seemed almost as good as 3.30 -> 3.30.

Question.. Why is it that 4.x and 5.x wireless package seem to be the most robust to date? I mean my 3.30 link was 100% all across the board, load no load, storms u name it.. Anything 4.x + doesnt seem to compare to wireless package that comes with 3.30.

Anyone else feel this way??
 
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Re: Poor performance after upgrade from 3.x to 4.11

Tue Oct 05, 2010 8:09 am

I bench-tested (since I don't risk beta on live links) some N cards with 5.06 beta, excited to see the improved performance from 4.10. I saw a signal downgrade, data rate decreased, and throughput decreased! When rolled back to 4.10, signal went back to good on both sides, and throughput increased.

Are those with PtP links using the 5.0 beta and RC actually seeing improved performance? I tried all protocols, Nstream, NV, NV2, everything.

On another note, I upgraded a couple more backhaul links on 802.11n from 4.10 to 4.11 and saw a decrease in CCQ and data rates afterwards. Both links upgraded to 4.11 are 25 miles with signals around -61db on both ends...
 
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Re: Poor performance after upgrade from 3.x to 4.11

Tue Oct 12, 2010 9:26 pm

Same situation here. If I go beyond v.3.30 my PtMP links go to heck. What a shame, b/c nv2 with N on PtP using 5.x, links absolutely rock. But my legacy 2.4 PtMP links on the same board just start sucking air...I guess I'll need to keep my PtP hardware separate from my PtMP hardware and keep the PtMP stuff at 3.30. I've tried and tried this, on 4.x then 5.x. Very discouraging. I just had to downgrade a PtMP board this morning...magically all my problems went away when I downgraded from 5.0rc1 to 3.30. What this means in effect is that I need to start using Ubiquiti hardware for my PtMP N equipment---I would have strongly preferred to stick with my old fav, MT!
 
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Re: Poor performance after upgrade from 3.x to 4.11

Tue Oct 12, 2010 9:37 pm

On downgrade question, yes. To 3.30 from 5.0rc1 no problems.
 
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Re: Poor performance after upgrade from 3.x to 4.11

Tue Oct 12, 2010 10:06 pm

Question.. Why is it that 4.x and 5.x wireless package seem to be the most robust to date? I mean my 3.30 link was 100% all across the board, load no load, storms u name it.. Anything 4.x + doesnt seem to compare to wireless package that comes with 3.30.

I don't understand this either. I mean, this means I'm stuck at 3.30 -. For instance, I've got a production board running 5.0rc1 right now with 39 2.4 customers on it, all but one of them MT client hardware--under 3.30 they had good service, and at 5.x I can't get any of them past a connect rate of 27Mbps...unless we are talking about the PtP link that is on this board too that is running nv2--it's really great. But nothing else wireless is. It would sure be nice if I had a solution to this...I'm really loosing my 10 year attachment to MT b/c of this issue. If I can't make my PtMP links work well, I've got to find a solution that does.
 
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Re: Poor performance after upgrade from 3.x to 4.11

Wed Oct 13, 2010 8:48 am

did you follow what I suggested above?
search the forum for hw-retries
There are no problems with wireless in newer versions, but on some links, settings need adjustment.
No answer to your question? How to write posts
 
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Re: Poor performance after upgrade from 3.x to 4.11

Sat Oct 16, 2010 2:28 pm

I upgraded a 433AH from 4.11 to 5.0rc1. The R52Hn card is fine, but the XR-5 could not establish a connection with any of the clients for more than 20 seconds. It is set to ap-bridge and there are 7 station mode clients. NStreme is not used. I played around with hw-retries and disconnect timeouts to no avail.

Downgrading it back to 4.11 fixed the disconnecting issue. All that is logged is the usual 'extensive data loss' errors.

I would like to utilize 5.0 on this board as I have had good results with wireless-N on other radios with v5.

Any suggestions for this issue?

cheers.
 
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Re: Poor performance after upgrade from 3.x to 4.11

Sat Oct 16, 2010 5:14 pm

did you follow what I suggested above?
search the forum for hw-retries
There are no problems with wireless in newer versions, but on some links, settings need adjustment.
I wish posters would come back and update if the advice suggested worked or not ?
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Re: Poor performance after upgrade from 3.x to 4.11

Sun Oct 17, 2010 5:28 pm

I upgraded my entire network to v4 and started getting complaints immediately. After a week, I downgraded the entire network and started doing small tests.

Changing hw-retries didn't help. I reset every CPE and started over, helped on 3/4. Some just will not work right with anything past 3.30.

I've got a text file I paste into terminal to configure my CPE's. Even a fresh device, 4.x is not as reliable as 3.x.

I set hw-retries to 15 by default. I've tried it with noise immunity, without, with RTS, without.

I have a few on 4.9 and 4.11 but about a third of my customers will not even connect to the AP with 4.x. I'm not talking poor signal either, -77 with a solid 36mb link high 90's ccq completely fails with anything up to 4.6. I haven't tried anything past that.

I have quit complaining about it because everyone is told it is a configuration issue. It doesn't appear anyone at MT is interested in making the problem go away by fixing it, they just want the problem to go away.

I have run 100% MT for a little over 2 years and I'm looking at options for my CPE largely because of this problem. I'll work with someone while they are sorting out a problem, but denying it exists is a disservice to everyone.
 
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Re: Poor performance after upgrade from 3.x to 4.11

Sun Oct 17, 2010 8:29 pm

When i see a post titled "Poor performance after upgrade from 3.x to 4.11"
(1) I ask myself will the issues listed effect me as i upgrade but unfortunately it has become apparent that unless detailed information is supplied I cannot compare,
(2)If I was to suggest any help it may not be applicable in the configuration <?> used by a poster?

It would be of great help if someone could design a blank template or edited version of supout.rif with sensitive or confidential info removed was available for posters to place on the forum, from which advice could be suggested from looking at config used and issues listed?

I have been testing a section of my network on 4.11 from 3.30 which was rock solid, and so far after 2 weeks no problems, my network is 100% Mikrotik, 99% routed with only one bridge, pppoe, ospf, For PTP using 433ah+XR5 to 24db grids, Manually set ACK's for each CPE and AP set to furthest away CPE+20%, reduced datarates on each CPE's to reach max CCQ %, and to date i had only used for CPE's UB5 radio cards onto 411 and currently testing RB711 with built in radio card, which would not operate on 3.30 and this was the only reason i started upgrading?
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mm690
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Re: Poor performance after upgrade from 3.x to 4.11

Mon Oct 18, 2010 2:28 am

did you follow what I suggested above?
search the forum for hw-retries
There are no problems with wireless in newer versions, but on some links, settings need adjustment.

Hardware retries has nothing to do with it.! 4.x + on most links that were running 3.30 flawlessly got to hell.! Its like one installed a completly different brand of board and radio.. The tx/rx levels go crazy when with heavy traffic.. When the link is idle the numbers are like with 3.30, so one thinks great! same link as before.. But no..! Once there is traffic in a matter of a couple seconds, the link tx/rx quality goes south and disconnects... You can try any possible setting, and this wont improve. On links were 4.x is good, well great! You have a good link, but most my links that where absolutely perfect no matter the weather, 4.x+ gives me the impression as using very first beta test wireless package MT has ever made who knows how many years ago.. lol

HW retries to me seems only to be usefull when u have a good 4.x link with good tx/rx under load but occasionally disconnects for no obvious reason with nstreme. This is a totally different issue.! Everthing goes wild like the far west..

ANyways, like others, I give up on issues like this. I just stick with 3.30. Just sux when u want to use features in 4.x+ but cant cause your stuck at 3.30.

Begs to wonder if you have ever setup a link using 4.x+ and the link was just not workable due to tx/rx issues and you concluded you cant make the link.. Probably would have been perfect in 3.30.!!

I love MT and have been using 100% for the past 4 and a half years in my networks. Been reluctant to try Ubiquiti stuff in my network, but damn it, it just seems that they work... Grrrr am I going to be forced to goto the other side? I love the fexability I get with my AP's using MT gear, I can modify the setup easily by adding radios antennas etc and I have no problem paying quite abit more money on SU's and AP's using MT compared to Ubiquiti. The darn reality is that I will literally be forced to start using Ubiquiti as the demand for higher bandwidth increases and the time I have to test and test and test again with MT stuff to get the same plug and play results in a matter of mins with Ubiquiti is catching up to me when were talking about 45Mbs +

Im dissapointed :( Mt keeps releasing newer releases with great new features, but they just dont work plug and play in the real world for higher bandwidth.. Its like there wasting there time.. Get the older stuff to work 100% no hassle, then bring the new stuff.. I mean christ, Ubiquiti products to me, seem based on MT firmware of some sort.. Gives me the impression they have a larger smarter bunch over there.. :(((

I cant believe that I probably have 150K of MT gear in the field since 4 yrs and a half. Im against it, but looks like the next fours years worth of 150k is going to the other guys. :( I wish MT had there stuff together, im almost depressed on the subject lol
 
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Re: Poor performance after upgrade from 3.x to 4.11

Mon Oct 18, 2010 8:53 pm

I am beginning to think that a possible solution to resolve performance issues with Mikrotik is for them to:
(1) Stick with just one type of chipset rather than multiple and work out the bugs on that one first as I have read posters highlight this issue?
(2) Integrated antenna solution that has been tested and works with Mikrotik?, if this means approval of certain brands – great, antenna manufacturers may then test and supply a workable configuration for their product to work with Mikrotik?- After all they do have a R+D dept. and so does Mikrotik (?)

At the moment it’s a “throw of the dice”
(a) Which Mikrotik product is suitable for my application,
(b) What Antenna will give the least amount of issues,
(c) Radio card?
(d) Pigtail? Or routing the lead to the antenna (With more and data being pushed through every item needs to be tested and not taken for granted ?)
(e) RF link lead between antenna & pigtail?
(f) What configuration?

Correct me if I am wrong but Ubiquiti use mostly integrated antenna for it’s a little easier to test and work out issues when one part of the many variables is eliminated?
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Re: Poor performance after upgrade from 3.x to 4.11

Tue Oct 19, 2010 7:37 pm

I need to do more testing with newer hardware.

One thought that had crossed my mind...

It is possible that the newer driver works fine with 802.11n hardware and not so good with our old R52/CM9/XR based cards.

Previous discussions with MT support asked to change the AP/CPE to only allow G mode speeds, which is all fine and good as a test, but I'd have to either set all 30+ CPE's that way or test a couple and let the rest lose internet during the test. Neither is really acceptable on an AP in use, and it is rather difficult to reproduce these problems in the office or on the ground.

Either way, I am now forced to either run 3.30 and older hardware or go with another supplier. Right now, I'm still using 3.30, but I will need the speed of N very soon.
 
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Re: Poor performance after upgrade from 3.x to 4.11

Tue Oct 19, 2010 9:42 pm

Hardware retries has nothing to do with it.! 4.x + on most links that were running 3.30 flawlessly got to hell.! Its like one installed a completly different brand of board and radio.. The tx/rx levels go crazy when with heavy traffic.. When the link is idle the numbers are like with 3.30, so one thinks great! same link as before.. But no..! Once there is traffic in a matter of a couple seconds, the link tx/rx quality goes south and disconnects... You can try any possible setting, and this wont improve. On links were 4.x is good, well great! You have a good link, but most my links that where absolutely perfect no matter the weather, 4.x+ gives me the impression as using very first beta test wireless package MT has ever made who knows how many years ago.. lol
Just a thought when you mentioned problem occurs only when heavy traffic flows, If you can get your hands on a pro spectrum analyser and monitor probe near the radio card to see if there is a noticeable noise increase inside the enclosure?
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mm690
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Re: Poor performance after upgrade from 3.x to 4.11

Wed Oct 20, 2010 2:22 am

Hardware retries has nothing to do with it.! 4.x + on most links that were running 3.30 flawlessly got to hell.! Its like one installed a completly different brand of board and radio.. The tx/rx levels go crazy when with heavy traffic.. When the link is idle the numbers are like with 3.30, so one thinks great! same link as before.. But no..! Once there is traffic in a matter of a couple seconds, the link tx/rx quality goes south and disconnects... You can try any possible setting, and this wont improve. On links were 4.x is good, well great! You have a good link, but most my links that where absolutely perfect no matter the weather, 4.x+ gives me the impression as using very first beta test wireless package MT has ever made who knows how many years ago.. lol
Just a thought when you mentioned problem occurs only when heavy traffic flows, If you can get your hands on a pro spectrum analyser and monitor probe near the radio card to see if there is a noticeable noise increase inside the enclosure?
Noise or no noise.. Dont want to sound rude .. , but the point is, this is not an issue with 3.30. Just making a statement that 4.x+ seems like a downgrade with non-N cards. Actually, it IS a downgrade wirelessly speaking (besides compatibility). I would put money on the table that a -65-69 100% tx/rx no load link performs eyes closed better in 3.30 than 4.x+ . Problem is, no one knows why.. Or do they? ;) Forget tweak this, tweak that. We are not suppose to do that unless absolutely necessary. 3.30 plug it in, basic setup, pull out a stogie.! 4.x+, plug it, basic setup, Russian roulette with .50 cal standing on the edge of a bridge on a very windy day. Chances are your a goner lololol
 
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Re: Poor performance after upgrade from 3.x to 4.11

Wed Oct 20, 2010 12:37 pm

Noise or no noise.. Dont want to sound rude .. , but the point is, this is not an issue with 3.30....
I don't want to be rude either but anything like induced noise on to a board can effect it's performance and remember copper pcb tracks are good conductors for pickup of such and many other RF devices have areas of a panel with screening to prevent this, I know the RF levels and generation of noise is very small but if a radio card is pushed to say max will this still be the same, Only a spectrum analyser or the comments of R+D dept. can answer this?
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Re: Poor performance after upgrade from 3.x to 4.11

Wed Oct 20, 2010 7:19 pm

search the forum for hw-retries

discussed many times
Looked, nothing specific to upgrading from 3.x to 4.x, 5.x. BTW, I love NV2 performance--really rocks (good work!), but something isn't right in the wireless packages from 4.x upward. I mean, the difference in performance is dramatically worse. I've tried hw retries at 15...and that did not work well. Currently at 10 up from 7 on this particular repeater and things seem a little better.
 
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Re: Poor performance after upgrade from 3.x to 4.11

Wed Oct 20, 2010 11:17 pm

I have the same problem

I think v4 will disconnect more often, perhaps more sensitive to noise than v3.30 was.
 
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Re: Poor performance after upgrade from 3.x to 4.11

Thu Oct 21, 2010 4:43 pm

Just a bit more info, my problems are 2.4GHz. My 5GHz links seem unaffected.

Most of my CPE's are Crossroads. Moving away from them, but still a lot in plant. A couple of the Crossroads are the CPE's that are not reliable when upgraded.

Fresnel zone problems were mentioned and I do wonder if that may have something to do with it.

The problem here is that you can't guarantee perfect fresnel with clients. If I only connected customers with a perfect fresnel zone I would only have about 20 customers.
 
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Re: Poor performance after upgrade from 3.x to 4.11

Thu Oct 21, 2010 4:51 pm

The problem here is that you can't guarantee perfect fresnel with clients. If I only connected customers with a perfect fresnel zone I would only have about 20 customers.
IMHO you should plan again your network deployment (changing AP positions)
Maybe increasing AP (smaller and closer to the customers).
It will cost you some more money, but you will have less problems and less support required..
And of course higher performance.
Renato Bernardi

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Re: Poor performance after upgrade from 3.x to 4.11

Fri Oct 22, 2010 5:44 am

Rural Internet, hills, trees, etc...

Clean fresnel zone for every link is not practical. It would require something like 3 customers per tower.

Not gonna happen.
 
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Re: Poor performance after upgrade from 3.x to 4.11

Fri Oct 22, 2010 6:12 pm

Just a bit more info, my problems are 2.4GHz. My 5GHz links seem unaffected.
Rural Internet, hills, trees, etc...
Clean fresnel zone for every link is not practical. It would require something like 3 customers per tower.
If as you say 5Ghz is unaffected just to clarify your links are running 4.11 what speeds have got them running at, have you considered moving over totally to 5Ghz and the fresnel zone will area will also be reduced, extra expense but?
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