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WirelessRudy
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WDS-slave mode not for 3rd party AP's?

Tue May 01, 2012 10:43 pm

Why is that? Can somebody explain why a € 30,- repeater from China can do what I don't seem to be able to make a RB751U-2HnD do?

It would make a great funcion for these boxes if with only one radio (=cheap and no interference) an outdoor SSID can be reproduced in strength for indoor use. If the signal is not strong enough indoor to be picked up by the RB751 its simple to attach a lead with a good outdoor antenna.

What is preventing th erb751U to connect to an 3rd party AP? TP-link can and they are even cheaper! (But I'd like MT routeros..:-) )
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jandafields
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Re: WDS-slave mode not for 3rd party AP's?

Tue May 01, 2012 11:17 pm

Why is that? Can somebody explain why a € 30,- repeater from China can do what I don't seem to be able to make a RB751U-2HnD do?

It would make a great funcion for these boxes if with only one radio (=cheap and no interference) an outdoor SSID can be reproduced in strength for indoor use. If the signal is not strong enough indoor to be picked up by the RB751 its simple to attach a lead with a good outdoor antenna.

What is preventing th erb751U to connect to an 3rd party AP? TP-link can and they are even cheaper! (But I'd like MT routeros..:-) )
Mikrotik CAN connect to a 3rd party AP. It just can't repeat the signal without WDS.

If your mikrotik has 2 radios... then yes, it can repeat. One radio is station, the other is client.

To make this work the way we want it to with 1 radio to repeat, mikrotik needs to add STATION+CLIENT mode.
 
WirelessRudy
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Re: WDS-slave mode not for 3rd party AP's?

Wed May 02, 2012 2:39 am

I know all that. But what is MT preventing 3rd party AP's in wds-slave mode? What has the software of a TP-link that cost me € 28,- that a MT of € 40,- cannot do? 3rd party repeaters have no problem associating with any other make AP, even MT. But an MT device can only associate with an MT AP in wds-slave mode? What is the technical behind it preventing it to connect to others?
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jandafields
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Re: WDS-slave mode not for 3rd party AP's?

Wed May 02, 2012 3:22 am

That is the defination of WDS. WDS can only connect to WDS, that's how WDS works.

mikrotik is not limiting wds-slave, they are simply not implememting station+client repeater mode.

The other routers you have that do repeating are not doing WDS, they are doing station+client mode.
 
WirelessRudy
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Re: WDS-slave mode not for 3rd party AP's?

Wed May 02, 2012 4:15 pm

hmm, so station-client mode (in MT terminology this would be "AP-bridge/bridge-station" mode) is something MT cannot do?
What is a radio actually doing when in this 'repeater' function? Is the radio simply switching between AP and Client-station mode each cpu cycle?

I have a Ruckus router that is even possible to transmit two new SSID's in its AP/repeater function where it associates to another SSID. Ideal! But they cost around € 100,- and are even declared EOL.

If TP-Link is able to make a box for € 28,- that can be either a full AP or a Repeater I don't understand that MT does not have the same ability.

Imagine the following great product: A wifi router that can associate with an metro SSID (if of need with an external small antenna to pick up some better signal from remote metro AP) and than transmits with a local SSID (set by owner, can be even 2 or more SSID's for user separation, each with its own authentication and encryption) a strong signal network inside the house and have 4 Ethernet ports and/or usb port that make it able to connect wired devices like storage, desktop, Voip adapter, printer etc.
Actually the Voip adapter should be build in as well. Have one extra analogue rj22/FXO port on the box and you'll have all in one single device!
Now I need an outdoor antenna, POE-inserter, Voip Adapter and Wifi modem to do the same. 3 boxes with 3 power leads and at least 3 network cables. (No other devices connected yet!)

What comes close so far:
- Ruckus 7200 series. Lacks the Voip and only one Ethernet port, no usb.
- TP Link WA830-RE. Lacks the Voip and only one Ethernet port, no usb. no private ISSD/encryption
- MT-751U-2Hnd. Lacks the Voip, no private ISSD and only WDS funcionality

Maybe there is other stuff on the market. Let me know. But anything more than 100usd makes it less interesting I presume....
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Re: WDS-slave mode not for 3rd party AP's?

Wed May 02, 2012 4:34 pm

Why is that? Can somebody explain why a € 30,- repeater from China can do what I don't seem to be able to make a RB751U-2HnD do?

It would make a great funcion for these boxes if with only one radio (=cheap and no interference) an outdoor SSID can be reproduced in strength for indoor use. If the signal is not strong enough indoor to be picked up by the RB751 its simple to attach a lead with a good outdoor antenna.

What is preventing th erb751U to connect to an 3rd party AP? TP-link can and they are even cheaper! (But I'd like MT routeros..:-) )
Mikrotik CAN connect to a 3rd party AP. It just can't repeat the signal without WDS.

If your mikrotik has 2 radios... then yes, it can repeat. One radio is station, the other is client.

To make this work the way we want it to with 1 radio to repeat, mikrotik needs to add STATION+CLIENT mode.
the part where this gentleman said have 2 radios is exactly what your describing, with repeating EXTRA ssid's
its because what ever device that is it has 2 wireless cards in side the box that you cant see unless you open it with your clever screwdriver. :D
 
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Re: WDS-slave mode not for 3rd party AP's?

Wed May 02, 2012 4:36 pm

hmm, so station-client mode (in MT terminology this would be "AP-bridge/bridge-station" mode) is something MT cannot do?
What is a radio actually doing when in this 'repeater' function? Is the radio simply switching between AP and Client-station mode each cpu cycle?

I have a Ruckus router that is even possible to transmit two new SSID's in its AP/repeater function where it associates to another SSID. Ideal! But they cost around € 100,- and are even declared EOL.

If TP-Link is able to make a box for € 28,- that can be either a full AP or a Repeater I don't understand that MT does not have the same ability.

Imagine the following great product: A wifi router that can associate with an metro SSID (if of need with an external small antenna to pick up some better signal from remote metro AP) and than transmits with a local SSID (set by owner, can be even 2 or more SSID's for user separation, each with its own authentication and encryption) a strong signal network inside the house and have 4 Ethernet ports and/or usb port that make it able to connect wired devices like storage, desktop, Voip adapter, printer etc.
Actually the Voip adapter should be build in as well. Have one extra analogue rj22/FXO port on the box and you'll have all in one single device!
Now I need an outdoor antenna, POE-inserter, Voip Adapter and Wifi modem to do the same. 3 boxes with 3 power leads and at least 3 network cables. (No other devices connected yet!)

What comes close so far:
- Ruckus 7200 series. Lacks the Voip and only one Ethernet port, no usb.
- TP Link WA830-RE. Lacks the Voip and only one Ethernet port, no usb. no private ISSD/encryption
- MT-751U-2Hnd. Lacks the Voip, no private ISSD and only WDS funcionality


Maybe there is other stuff on the market. Let me know. But anything more than 100usd makes it less interesting I presume....
by the way its rj12 ;)
and you forgot the kitchen sink ;)
 
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Re: WDS-slave mode not for 3rd party AP's?

Wed May 02, 2012 5:56 pm

the part where this gentleman said have 2 radios is exactly what your describing, with repeating EXTRA ssid's
its because what ever device that is it has 2 wireless cards in side the box that you cant see unless you open it with your clever screwdriver. :D
Some devices do this with a single radio, not 2. You lose half your bandwidth, though. Mikrotik doesn't offer this feature with a single radio. DD-WRT can do this with 1 radio, as can some of the other custom WRT firmwares.
 
WirelessRudy
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Re: WDS-slave mode not for 3rd party AP's?

Thu May 03, 2012 12:23 am

the part where this gentleman said have 2 radios is exactly what your describing, with repeating EXTRA ssid's
its because what ever device that is it has 2 wireless cards in side the box that you cant see unless you open it with your clever screwdriver. :D
Some devices do this with a single radio, not 2. You lose half your bandwidth, though. Mikrotik doesn't offer this feature with a single radio. DD-WRT can do this with 1 radio, as can some of the other custom WRT firmwares.
Exactly, and any radio's that can participate in mesh can do it, so that's a whole range of vendors.

But my interest is more in the techs behind it. Any radio engaged in a link is sending-receiving-sending alternating all the time. Its in the 802.11 protocol I think where is actually arranged or agreed upon who is AP and who is client. Same protocol allows proprietary wds solutions but there is obviously also a way the repeater functionality can be arranged. I was just hoping someone of you guys could give me a bit of a technical lecture on this without the need to start digging the internet to find the info... And in sharing such info here on the forum others can find info useful as well. :)
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Re: WDS-slave mode not for 3rd party AP's?

Thu May 03, 2012 12:37 am

the part where this gentleman said have 2 radios is exactly what your describing, with repeating EXTRA ssid's
its because what ever device that is it has 2 wireless cards in side the box that you cant see unless you open it with your clever screwdriver. :D
Some devices do this with a single radio, not 2. You lose half your bandwidth, though. Mikrotik doesn't offer this feature with a single radio. DD-WRT can do this with 1 radio, as can some of the other custom WRT firmwares.
Exactly, and any radio's that can participate in mesh can do it, so that's a whole range of vendors.

But my interest is more in the techs behind it. Any radio engaged in a link is sending-receiving-sending alternating all the time. Its in the 802.11 protocol I think where is actually arranged or agreed upon who is AP and who is client. Same protocol allows proprietary wds solutions but there is obviously also a way the repeater functionality can be arranged. I was just hoping someone of you guys could give me a bit of a technical lecture on this without the need to start digging the internet to find the info... And in sharing such info here on the forum others can find info useful as well. :)
I don't know the tech behind it, but it is a feature of the radio chipset itself. Atheros calls it Client Bridge or something, and Broadcom calls it Repeater Bridge or something, etc.
 
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Re: WDS-slave mode not for 3rd party AP's?

Thu May 03, 2012 1:00 am

well, MT uses very general Atheros chip sets so Imho it is not so much a feature of the chip sets. But I might be wrong...
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Re: WDS-slave mode not for 3rd party AP's?

Thu May 03, 2012 1:13 am

well, MT uses very general Atheros chip sets so Imho it is not so much a feature of the chip sets. But I might be wrong...
How do you know their particular chipset doesn't have that feature? Even the cheapest routers at walmart have that feature in the chipset. It's pretty standard. Whether or not they decide to enable or implement that feature, that is up to the person programming the router software.
 
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Re: WDS-slave mode not for 3rd party AP's?

Thu May 03, 2012 1:28 am

well, MT uses very general Atheros chip sets so Imho it is not so much a feature of the chip sets. But I might be wrong...
How do you know their particular chipset doesn't have that feature? Even the cheapest routers at walmart have that feature in the chipset. It's pretty standard. Whether or not they decide to enable or implement that feature, that is up to the person programming the router software.
Well simple. Without looking at the actual chipsets, I can figure out that MT-ROS will not have that function in-dependable of the chipset. You can put a ubnt card, a TP-link (!) a dBII or a MT card in their routerboards. The function is not there and we now sort of covered a big chunk of the chip market.
Even a TP-link card will not bring the function where TP-link does have it in their own routers.
My conclusion would be its not the chipset, its the operating system running it... (ROS) But feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. :)
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jandafields
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Re: WDS-slave mode not for 3rd party AP's?

Thu May 03, 2012 1:51 am

well, MT uses very general Atheros chip sets so Imho it is not so much a feature of the chip sets. But I might be wrong...
How do you know their particular chipset doesn't have that feature? Even the cheapest routers at walmart have that feature in the chipset. It's pretty standard. Whether or not they decide to enable or implement that feature, that is up to the person programming the router software.
Well simple. Without looking at the actual chipsets, I can figure out that MT-ROS will not have that function in-dependable of the chipset. You can put a ubnt card, a TP-link (!) a dBII or a MT card in their routerboards. The function is not there and we now sort of covered a big chunk of the chip market.
Even a TP-link card will not bring the function where TP-link does have it in their own routers.
My conclusion would be its not the chipset, its the operating system running it... (ROS) But feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. :)
It is in the chipset, but the operating system has to show it as an option if you want to use it. You can't put a ubnt card in the mikrotik and then get access to functions that definately exist in the card if mikrotik doesn't make those functions a choice.

If mikrotik removed wds from the choices, it would still exist as a function of the chip... you just wouldn't be able to use it. Same goes for repeater.
 
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Re: WDS-slave mode not for 3rd party AP's?

Thu May 03, 2012 4:50 pm

It is in the chipset, but the operating system has to show it as an option if you want to use it. You can't put a ubnt card in the mikrotik and then get access to functions that definately exist in the card if mikrotik doesn't make those functions a choice.

If mikrotik removed wds from the choices, it would still exist as a function of the chip... you just wouldn't be able to use it. Same goes for repeater.
hmm, if that is true, why would MT than not just enable that extra functionality in their ROS. It would give them a great sales point, won't cost them anything and actually I see no setbacks for them in enabling it. So I don't know if it is that easy.... or these guys are a bit ............ :(
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Re: WDS-slave mode not for 3rd party AP's?

Thu May 03, 2012 5:02 pm

It is in the chipset, but the operating system has to show it as an option if you want to use it. You can't put a ubnt card in the mikrotik and then get access to functions that definately exist in the card if mikrotik doesn't make those functions a choice.

If mikrotik removed wds from the choices, it would still exist as a function of the chip... you just wouldn't be able to use it. Same goes for repeater.
hmm, if that is true, why would MT than not just enable that extra functionality in their ROS. It would give them a great sales point, won't cost them anything and actually I see no setbacks for them in enabling it. So I don't know if it is that easy.... or these guys are a bit ............ :(
As proof that this is a function inside the chipset: "Some devices that DD-WRT works on do not offer the repeater mode. The DD-WRT firmware has it as a choice, but not all radio chips support it." That right there is proof that the repeater function is a feature of the radio, not just the software.

However... even on the radios that do not support repeater-mode, DD-WRT let's you put the radio into client mode AND you can put a virtual AP on the same radio at the same time... making a working repeater on chips that don't even support it! So, even if some chipsets prevent it... it is still possible by putting the radio in client mode and adding a virtual AP.

Unfortunately, Mikrotik does not give repeater as a choice, even on chips that support it... AND they don't allow you to use a Virtual AP on a radio in client mode. "Virtual AP only works on station mode." So, Mikrotik stops both methods from working, the hardware mode and the software mode.
 
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Re: WDS-slave mode not for 3rd party AP's?

Sun May 06, 2012 8:40 pm

Is Station + Client mode on the feature request list ? If not, we should certainly submit it !! I am also dissapointed such a useful feature is not included in current RouterOS.

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