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nightowl
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UNII-2, Riddle Me This, Riddle Me That

Thu Jul 24, 2014 9:02 am

Are the following bands "allowed" in the US with Mikrotik devices?

NO / YES - UNII-1 5.15-5.25
NO / YES - UNII-2 5.25-5.35
YES - UNII-3 5.725 to 5.825

I'm currently using RB911G-5HPnD with UBNT 5Ghz Sectors and I have stayed out of band 1 & 2 even though their in my drop down list, for fear of Big Brother slapping me around. When I look at this http://i.mt.lv/routerboard/files/RB912U ... 484516.pdf
it just says 5740-5830, really? Did I just answer my own question? If so is Mikrotik in the process of getting UNII-2 ? Or do I have to use UBNT to take advantages of those channels?
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Re: UNII-2, Riddle Me This, Riddle Me That

Thu Jul 24, 2014 9:07 am

This Routerboard is capable to works from 4.8GHz to 6.1GHz on step of 5MHz
Is only you responsibility to work on right range on accordance with the law on your country.
I'm Italian, not English. Sorry for my imperfect grammar.
 
nightowl
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Re: UNII-2, Riddle Me This, Riddle Me That

Thu Jul 24, 2014 9:29 am

Thank you for the reply, but it is Mikrotiks responsibility to get the device approved with the FCC so I can use it in the allowed frequencys? Which is what I'm wondering if they have done that with UNII-2 since I have access to it in my drop down list. BUT not have it listed on the pdf mentioned earlier.
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Re: UNII-2, Riddle Me This, Riddle Me That

Thu Jul 24, 2014 5:05 pm

I have not seen any U-NII (15.407) approvals for MikroTik devices. They do seem to have DFS with radar detection, but they haven't gotten the FCC approval. Thus it is only legal to use them on the ISM frequencies 5725-5850 under 15.249.

See my note from yesterday as to why U-NII approval will be so hard to get, under current rules, for U-NII-1 (5150-5250) and U-NII-3 (5725-5850). They don't require DFS but the rules cap out of band emissions based on EIRP, so anything with more than +30 EIRP (the U-NII-II DFS-band limit) is unlikely to meet the current rules. Petitions are pending at the FCC (ET docket 13-49) to fix it.
 
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Re: UNII-2, Riddle Me This, Riddle Me That

Thu Jul 24, 2014 5:47 pm

MikroTik RouterBoards do operate in the U-NII-1/2/3 bands, but under the ISM rules.

I have used all three bands successfully. Keep in mind that US regulatory rules limit power in the different bands. Band 1 is limited to 50 mW, Band 2 is limited to 200 or 250 mW (can't remember which), and Band 3 is limited to 1000 mW. If you use the regulatory compliance domain set to United States these power limits will be automatically enforced.
 
nightowl
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Re: UNII-2, Riddle Me This, Riddle Me That

Thu Jul 24, 2014 6:20 pm

MikroTik RouterBoards do operate in the U-NII-1/2/3 bands, but under the ISM rules.

I have used all three bands successfully. Keep in mind that US regulatory rules limit power in the different bands. Band 1 is limited to 50 mW, Band 2 is limited to 200 or 250 mW (can't remember which), and Band 3 is limited to 1000 mW. If you use the regulatory compliance domain set to United States these power limits will be automatically enforced.
So as long as the compliance domain is set, I'm allowed to use the bands?
I'm going to have to read http://www.afar.net/tutorials/fcc-rules/ to understand this ISM more.
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nightowl
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Re: UNII-2, Riddle Me This, Riddle Me That

Thu Jul 24, 2014 6:35 pm

I have not seen any U-NII (15.407) approvals for MikroTik devices. They do seem to have DFS with radar detection, but they haven't gotten the FCC approval. Thus it is only legal to use them on the ISM frequencies 5725-5850 under 15.249.

See my note from yesterday as to why U-NII approval will be so hard to get, under current rules, for U-NII-1 (5150-5250) and U-NII-3 (5725-5850). They don't require DFS but the rules cap out of band emissions based on EIRP, so anything with more than +30 EIRP (the U-NII-II DFS-band limit) is unlikely to meet the current rules. Petitions are pending at the FCC (ET docket 13-49) to fix it.
Yea I read that and like an airplane it went over my head, But I sorta followed it, pretty much trying to find a cut and dry answer.
To me it seems like we have two conflicting rules, we need approval under 15.407 but we are allowed to use them in 1 & 2 under ISM rules?
Just trying to break it down in layman's terms in my head, plus help anyone else that might not have a great amount of knowledge about this.

MikroTik RouterBoards do operate in the U-NII-1/2/3 bands, but under the ISM rules.

I have used all three bands successfully. Keep in mind that US regulatory rules limit power in the different bands. Band 1 is limited to 50 mW, Band 2 is limited to 200 or 250 mW (can't remember which), and Band 3 is limited to 1000 mW. If you use the regulatory compliance domain set to United States these power limits will be automatically enforced.
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Re: UNII-2, Riddle Me This, Riddle Me That

Thu Jul 24, 2014 6:54 pm

No, you are NOT allowed to use MikroTik radios (approved only under 15.247) in the US on the lower U-NII bands. Period. If you set the country to US, it will only offer channels in the ISM-band 5745-5825 range (if 20 MHz wide). If you have "no country set", then sure, it'll go down to 5180. I just checked this on some SXTs. But you will be operating outside of FCC rules, and are subject to whatever they want to do to you. The fact that you are within allowable power levels doesn't matter; the radio needs to be type approved for the frequency you're using it on. As a "professional installer", you're responsible for keeping the system within the rules.

Of course I have seen lots of radios installed by "professional installers" in the 5180-5340 range, but they were in violation. When I find them, and have any say over it, I fix them.

The new rules (impacting any type approval after ~June 1, 2015, or anything sold after June 1, 2016) require units sold in the US to be locked to US rules, basically needing a separate SKU. If a radio gets that type approval (which seems to require a rules fix, as I noted earlier), then the power limit on U-NII-1 (5150-5250) is +30 dBm output and +53 dBm EIRP. Under the un-fixed rules, EIRP above +30 or so seems unlikely to pass type approval.
Last edited by fgoldstein on Sun Mar 01, 2015 4:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
nightowl
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Re: UNII-2, Riddle Me This, Riddle Me That

Thu Jul 24, 2014 7:10 pm

No, you are NOT allowed to use MikroTik radios (approved only under 15.249) in the US on the lower U-NII bands. Period. If you set the country to US, it will only offer channels in the ISM-band 5745-5825 range (if 20 MHz wide). If you have "no country set", then sure, it'll go down to 5180. I just checked this on some SXTs. But you will be operating outside of FCC rules, and are subject to whatever they want to do to you. The fact that you are within allowable power levels doesn't matter; the radio needs to be type approved for the frequency you're using it on. As a "professional installer", you're responsible for keeping the system within the rules.

Of course I have seen lots of radios installed by "professional installers" in the 5180-5340 range, but they were in violation. When I find them, and have any say over it, I fix them.

The new rules (impacting any type approval after ~June 1, 2015, or anything sold after June 1, 2016) require units sold in the US to be locked to US rules, basically needing a separate SKU. If a radio gets that type approval (which seems to require a rules fix, as I noted earlier), then the power limit on U-NII-1 (5150-5250) is +30 dBm output and +53 dBm EIRP. Under the un-fixed rules, EIRP above +30 or so seems unlikely to pass type approval.

Cut and Dry, Kudos!
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nightowl
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Re: UNII-2, Riddle Me This, Riddle Me That

Thu Jul 24, 2014 7:20 pm

require units sold in the US to be locked to US rules, basically needing a separate SKU.

Hence why UBNT has a US version and most of their devices can be used on U-NII-1 & 2
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Re: UNII-2, Riddle Me This, Riddle Me That

Fri Aug 08, 2014 5:26 pm

With the pending rules it looks like the ISM is going away. What are MIkrotik's plans in North America? Looks if this clears by 2015 or 16 Mikrotik will not be allowed in the US if they don't start certifying under the UNII rules.
 
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Re: UNII-2, Riddle Me This, Riddle Me That

Fri Aug 15, 2014 5:13 pm

Kinda looks that way.

With the difficultly our FCC is giving everyone I wonder if Mikrotik is even going to try to get DFS certified. I'm hoping for the minimum of at least having the 5.1-5.2GHz and 5.7-5.8GHz bands, but I'm not too confident we will. Mikrotik has not replied to any questions so far, which I have to say doesn't make me feel all warm and fuzzy.
 
nightowl
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Re: UNII-2, Riddle Me This, Riddle Me That

Sun Aug 17, 2014 3:50 am

Kinda looks that way.

With the difficultly our FCC is giving everyone I wonder if Mikrotik is even going to try to get DFS certified. I'm hoping for the minimum of at least having the 5.1-5.2GHz and 5.7-5.8GHz bands, but I'm not too confident we will. Mikrotik has not replied to any questions so far, which I have to say doesn't make me feel all warm and fuzzy.
It doesn't make me feel warm and fuzzy either, I have been looking at replacing around some 200 devices with Mikrotik BUT since it seems they want to ignore this subject not even acknowledge a future plan it's making me think I should start looking else where so I don't buy a whole bunch of equipment I'll never get to fully utilize OR may not be able to even buy in the USA frequencys!

Should we keep bumping this thread till we get a response?
I almost wonder if the response will be "we make router boards"?
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Re: UNII-2, Riddle Me This, Riddle Me That

Thu Sep 18, 2014 10:02 pm

Time to bump the thread again.

Forget about U-NII-2 with its difficult DFS rules for the moment. MikroTik seems to be behind on FCC approval on a lot more than that. Several of the recently-announced products, like NetMetal, don't even have FCC ISM-band (15.247) approval. That's usually pretty quick; the testing is done by a third-party test lab and the FCC blesses the results with a certificate. I suppose MT has the right to pre-announce products regardless of their US availability, but I'm a bit surprised in this case.

And MT has zero products with 15.407 (U-NII) approvals. While DFS (U-NII-2) is hard to get through (the FCC itself tests DFS, and takes roughly forever), non-DFS U-NII-3 can be done by a test lab, same as ISM-band. The rules are stricter, to be sure, and in the past there was no need to bother, as 15.247 offered more for less. But now, if a device goes for U-NII-3 approval, it can also get U-NII-1 approval (5150-5250) at the same time, even if it doesn't have DFS. And if it gets U-NII-3 approval first, adding U-NII-1 is treated as a "Class II permissive change", which is a relatively easy filing.

The 15.247 test results for the SXT-AC, with the new QCA9882 chip, are pretty impressive; it looks clean enough to get at least some kind of reasonable power (nobody gets anywhere near 1 watt with a directional antenna) on U-NII-1. Some older chips, well, would have had a problem. Of course that does require them to ship a US-specific country-locked SKU. But it would make the units a lot more desirable here, especially seeing how crowded the 5725-5850 band has gotten.

So I hope somebody at MT is looking into this. Or their US disties should bang them on the tush with a not-legal-for-sale-in-the-US QRT until they do. :wink:

(BTW, "QRT" is a really bad name for a radio. In ham radio Q-codes, QRT means "off the air".)
 
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Re: UNII-2, Riddle Me This, Riddle Me That

Sun Sep 21, 2014 9:16 pm

Bump for MT response
 
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Re: UNII-2, Riddle Me This, Riddle Me That

Tue Oct 14, 2014 3:31 pm

Silence speaks volumes.
 
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Re: UNII-2, Riddle Me This, Riddle Me That

Mon Oct 20, 2014 5:16 am

Bump'n
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Re: UNII-2, Riddle Me This, Riddle Me That

Tue Dec 23, 2014 6:34 am

Bump
 
nightowl
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Re: UNII-2, Riddle Me This, Riddle Me That

Tue Dec 23, 2014 6:47 am

Honestly I think this is something that's never going to get answered on here until they make a public statement to everybody in some sort of announcement. Cost vs benefit? I've literally stopped installing anything mikrotik in a wireless format and I've gone to other brands because of this.
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Re: UNII-2, Riddle Me This, Riddle Me That

Tue Feb 24, 2015 7:22 pm

Bump

Unfortunately I'm having to install UBNT hardware to access the 5GHz band at this time.

If I had at least an update that MT has applied for DFS approval in the US I'd much rather go with their equipment. It is much more robust.
 
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Re: UNII-2, Riddle Me This, Riddle Me That

Tue Feb 24, 2015 8:30 pm

If you follow the UBNT forums, you'll know how hard it has become to get DFS approval in the US. The old tests were apparently harder than Europe's, but the new ones make the old ones seem like a walk in the park. I'm not sure if anyone has passed. Mimosa and Cambium might have, but they might have snuck by just on time for the old tests. It appears that getting an existing chip-based radio through the testing is either impossible or close to it.

U-NII-1, however, is somewhat easier, and there's no excuse for MT to have not gone for it. (It does however require a different country-locked SKU.) As it stands, all 5 GHz type approvals for MT radios will expire in June, 2016 (if no extension is granted) and they will no longer be allowed to be sold in the US. So I'm not using MT for any new 5 GHz outdoor links.
 
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Re: UNII-2, Riddle Me This, Riddle Me That

Wed Feb 25, 2015 6:32 pm

I understand how difficult it is and I'm involved in getting our government to review the requirements set in place by a handful of unelected officials.

The catch with UNII 1 is that in order to be UNII 1 certified, UNII 2 certification is apparently a requirement. UNII 1 has much more lax rules, however, if the device can't pass UNII 2 it cannot be certified for UNII 1.

US tax dollars at work.

In tech speak, our government needs a clean install. Too much garbage has been brought along with incremental upgrades.
 
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Re: UNII-2, Riddle Me This, Riddle Me That

Wed Feb 25, 2015 8:30 pm

U-NII-2 certification (DFS) is definitely NOT a requirement for U-NII-1! In fact Senao Engenius seems to have upgraded its U-NII-1 indoor authorization to outdoor recently, without DFS.
To get U-NII-1, the equipment needs to be tested to essentially the *old* U-NII-3 standard, *plus* be country-locked to prevent it from being used with power/frequency combinations not approved for the US. U-NII-3 specs were always somewhat harder than 15C (15.247 ISM-band) specs, and provided only a subset of 15C capabilities, so essentially nobody used them. The current plan is for no new 15C 5725-5850 MHz type approvals as of June. So new gear will need 15E U-NII-3 approval to use the old ISM band, and adding U-NII-1 to that is trivial. This is not DFS; it just has ridiculous out-of-band-emission standards designed for omni APs, not directional radios. It is my suspicion (from the 15C approval documentation) that the SXT-AC would pass 15E with reasonable power limits, as would related (same chipset) radios. But it still costs real money to apply.
 
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Re: UNII-2, Riddle Me This, Riddle Me That

Fri Feb 27, 2015 5:33 pm

Good to know.

I was under the understanding with info from UBNT that UNII 1 certs required UNII 2 certs.
 
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Re: UNII-2, Riddle Me This, Riddle Me That

Thu Jul 16, 2015 7:00 pm

Time to elevate this thread.

Dynadish looks like a nice radio. It got FCC 15C approval in June, apparently taking advantage of the 6-month extension that they gave on June 1, the day 15C (old ISM band) approvals on 5.7 GHz were scheduled to stop. But like all other MikroTik radios, including QRT, it lacks U-NII (15E) approval. It lacks US DFS needed for U-NII-2 (5.25-5.725) and it lacks the much easier non-DFS U-NII-1 (5.15-5.25). That latter band is becoming popular for backhauls, as its power limit is reasonably high and it's not nearly as noisy as U-NII-3/ISM.

I know we're not a huge s hare of your market and our FCC is a royal pain to deal with, but couldn't you send a couple of your newer, cleaner radios to a test lab to see if they could be modified to create the US/CA SKU you'd need for U-NII approval? Can somebody there say something?
 
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Re: UNII-2, Riddle Me This, Riddle Me That

Fri Jul 17, 2015 9:11 am

Thank you guys for bringing up this topic.

We are currently working hard to work this out so no one need to worry about any of your concerns discussed here.

More information will follow!
 
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Re: UNII-2, Riddle Me This, Riddle Me That

Tue Jul 21, 2015 6:42 pm

Thank you.

I am very pleased to hear that MT is addressing the FCC problem and I apologize for the work our government has thrown upon you to continue selling your equipment in our country.

We didn't elect *anyone* working at the FCC. Looks like the wrong people got the job to be honest.
 
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Re: UNII-2, Riddle Me This, Riddle Me That

Tue Jul 21, 2015 8:51 pm

We didn't elect *anyone* working at the FCC. Looks like the wrong people got the job to be honest.
It's not entirely the FCC's fault. MT's competitors do get at least some 15E approvals, though their biggest competitor in the 5 GHz WISP space has had a very hard time getting their new Atheros-based radios approved.

The problem with 5 GHz is that below 5725, its primary owner in the US is the federal government, which uses it for military radar. And 5150-5250 belongs to Globalstar, the satellite company. So unlicensed use has to fit rules that prove non-interference. The US DFS rules are made by the Dept. of Defense and the NTIA, which manages federal spectrum, not the FCC itself. So the FCC just enforces standards they jointly negotiate.

Last year the FCC opened up 5150-5250 but -- apparently at NTIA's bidding -- also implemented much stricter out-of-band rules, which are driving everyone nuts, and changed the DFS tests. The new tests are apparently devilishly hard to pass using Atheros chips. So I can see why MikroTik isn't on DFS, though it would sure be nice if the could find a wizard to get there. But the newer products do look, from their test results (on the FCC web site), to qualify reasonably well for U-NII-3 and U-NII-1 (the non-DFS bands). That does unfortunately require the radio to be country-locked, so it needs its own SKU.

Oh, and technically the NTIA (Dept. of Commerce) and Dept. of Defense are part of the elected government, but I don't really think that the spectrum folks care.
 
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Re: UNII-2, Riddle Me This, Riddle Me That

Wed Jul 22, 2015 5:51 am

I just know the rumors of brand U equipment is that their new 25dBi dish requires -11dBm tx power to pass the OOBE standards.

I'm still blaming the FCC. Wheeler come in from working with/for cable companies and it looks like he is not friendly towards WISPs.

edit: Just to be clear I'm not trying to argue with you. You obviously know your way around the FCC and government issues. I just know that once Wheeler came in as the head of the FCC things changed. A lot.

I think your post is the one I'm referencing for the pathetic tx levels.
 
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Re: UNII-2, Riddle Me This, Riddle Me That

Thu Jul 23, 2015 10:03 pm

If you follow the UBNT forums, you'll know how hard it has become to get DFS approval in the US. The old tests were apparently harder than Europe's, but the new ones make the old ones seem like a walk in the park. I'm not sure if anyone has passed. Mimosa and Cambium might have, but they might have snuck by just on time for the old tests. It appears that getting an existing chip-based radio through the testing is either impossible or close to it.

U-NII-1, however, is somewhat easier, and there's no excuse for MT to have not gone for it. (It does however require a different country-locked SKU.) As it stands, all 5 GHz type approvals for MT radios will expire in June, 2016 (if no extension is granted) and they will no longer be allowed to be sold in the US. So I'm not using MT for any new 5 GHz outdoor links.
I know the post is old, but both of those companies have product passed with current tests.
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Re: UNII-2, Riddle Me This, Riddle Me That

Fri Jul 24, 2015 12:06 am

Yes, they've had products that passed DFS, but which ones? UBNT has passed DFS with AirFiber 5X, which uses a custom chip set, not the Atheros Wi-Fi-based chips found in their mass-produced PtMP line. They've had no luck with the Atheros chips (XW). Mimosa has gotten its Quantenna-based products through, but isn't shipping anything but the big B5 yet. Cambium's ePMP uses Atheros too, and may have passed the new tests, but those hit the market when the old tests were still in effect so I'm not sure if they've passed the new ones with that line, so maybe only their high-priced FPGA-based lines have.
 
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Re: UNII-2, Riddle Me This, Riddle Me That

Fri Jul 24, 2015 12:23 am

Yes, they've had products that passed DFS, but which ones? UBNT has passed DFS with AirFiber 5X, which uses a custom chip set, not the Atheros Wi-Fi-based chips found in their mass-produced PtMP line. They've had no luck with the Atheros chips (XW). Mimosa has gotten its Quantenna-based products through, but isn't shipping anything but the big B5 yet. Cambium's ePMP uses Atheros too, and may have passed the new tests, but those hit the market when the old tests were still in effect so I'm not sure if they've passed the new ones with that line, so maybe only their high-priced FPGA-based lines have.
The B5c is shipping. Streakwave has 357 in stock.

Cambium got a certification in the past few months for a new ePMP product.
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Re: UNII-2, Riddle Me This, Riddle Me That

Fri Jul 24, 2015 1:20 am

The B5c is the original B5, connectorized. The B5-Lite is the peer version of the C5 client, not shipping for a few more months.
Cambium may have the secret sauce for DFS on Atheros, which would give them a leg up. But all I can find on the FCC web site is the ePMP DFS approval from 2013, old rules. They have gotten Permissive Changes since then but, oddly, I don't see new DFS approval documents.
 
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Re: UNII-2, Riddle Me This, Riddle Me That

Fri Jul 24, 2015 1:23 am

The B5c is the original B5, connectorized. The B5-Lite is the peer version of the C5 client, not shipping for a few more months.
Cambium may have the secret sauce for DFS on Atheros, which would give them a leg up. But all I can find on the FCC web site is the ePMP DFS approval from 2013, old rules. They have gotten Permissive Changes since then but, oddly, I don't see new DFS approval documents.
Few outside of Mimosa themselves are as familiar with their product line as I, Fred. You said the B5, so I mentioned the B5c.
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Re: UNII-2, Riddle Me This, Riddle Me That

Fri Jul 24, 2015 11:51 pm

I see your confusion, Hammy. I said "the big B5", and you thought that I was omitting the B5c. I was referring to the B5 electronics, with or without antenna, since they both passed DFS together. The B5{c} is a high end radio, basically unique in today's market. But it proves that the Quantenna chips can do the job.

The B5-Lite/C5/C5c will compete, in the MT lineup, with Dynadish and Sextant-AC in the ~100 Euro class. It already has the DFS cert, which it got in June (so new tests), and is approved for about +42 dBm on non-DFS bands. That could be big next year.
 
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Re: UNII-2, Riddle Me This, Riddle Me That

Wed Aug 19, 2015 8:00 pm

So I hope that someone here might be able to dumb it down a little bit for me.

Maybe fgoldstein?

So am I correct to understand that under FCC regulations the only frequencies that are currently legal to use in the USA are 5745/5825 (for mikrotik products)?

Does anyone know that with new FCC regulations if more frequencies will be available to use?

Additionally am I correct that 5180-5320 are legal frequencies but the problem is that Mikrotik radios are not compliant?

And lastly does anyone know that with new FCC regulations if more frequencies in the lower end will be avalible (with and without mikrotik compliancy).

Kind regards.
 
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Re: UNII-2, Riddle Me This, Riddle Me That

Thu Aug 20, 2015 2:11 pm

MikroTik RouterBoards do operate in the U-NII-1/2/3 bands, but under the ISM rules.

I have used all three bands successfully. Keep in mind that US regulatory rules limit power in the different bands. Band 1 is limited to 50 mW, Band 2 is limited to 200 or 250 mW (can't remember which), and Band 3 is limited to 1000 mW. If you use the regulatory compliance domain set to United States these power limits will be automatically enforced.
You are sadly mistaken if you think Mikrotik wireless devices will work with with anything other than 5725 - 5850, legally.
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Re: UNII-2, Riddle Me This, Riddle Me That

Thu Aug 20, 2015 2:14 pm

So I hope that someone here might be able to dumb it down a little bit for me.

Maybe fgoldstein?

So am I correct to understand that under FCC regulations the only frequencies that are currently legal to use in the USA are 5745/5825 (for mikrotik products)?

Does anyone know that with new FCC regulations if more frequencies will be available to use?

Additionally am I correct that 5180-5320 are legal frequencies but the problem is that Mikrotik radios are not compliant?

And lastly does anyone know that with new FCC regulations if more frequencies in the lower end will be avalible (with and without mikrotik compliancy).

Kind regards.
If Mikrotik gets certified in the particular bands, it will support 5150 - 5250 (almost the same power as 5725 - 5850, minus any OOBE restrictions they may have), 5250 - 5350 (30 dB EIRP and US DFS requirements) and 5475 - 5725 (same as 5250).
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Re: UNII-2, Riddle Me This, Riddle Me That

Thu Aug 20, 2015 5:55 pm

So I hope that someone here might be able to dumb it down a little bit for me.

Maybe fgoldstein?

So am I correct to understand that under FCC regulations the only frequencies that are currently legal to use in the USA are 5745/5825 (for mikrotik products)?

...
If Mikrotik gets certified in the particular bands, it will support 5150 - 5250 (almost the same power as 5725 - 5850, minus any OOBE restrictions they may have), 5250 - 5350 (30 dB EIRP and US DFS requirements) and 5475 - 5725 (same as 5250).
Right -- and that "if" is where the hangup has been.

All of MikroTik's existing 5 GHz certs are "15C" (so-called ISM band). That was scheduled to end on June 1 but has been extended until December 1. The FCC wants to move everyone to "15E" (U-NII) certification. That is the only one that ever applied below 5725, and is much stricter.

A certain other vendor had a lot of 15C-approved Atheros-based radios that got DFS approval (15E) and then U-NII-1 (5150-5250). They kept their old power limits above 5725 and the FCC approval noted that it was approved under two different rules. Said vendor more recently has gotten U-NII-1 approval for some radios that do not yet pass the new, even stricter, DFS testing imposed last year. (I've never seen an Atheros-based radio pass that test, but I'd be happy to be corrected.) The new firmware that opens up U-NII-1 also removes the 15C approval and lowers 5725-5850 power levels, based on incredibly strict U-NII out-of-band rules. So now some radios are stuck at basically DFS power levels on ISM frequencies. They warn you not to upgrade if you don't need to... and you can downgrade for now, though that won't be allowed after next June.

So MikroTik apparently missed the window for "easy" US DFS (let's call it DFS2, to distinguish from the EU's easier DFS1) which closed in 2014, and missed the window for permissive mixed-mode U-NII/ISM which the FCC quietly seems to be closing. U-NII-2 (let's call it now DFS3) is really tough to pass now. They can probably pass U-NII non-DFS trivially on the newer radios, but the power levels may be lower. The engineers should be screaming "linear!" and "keep those intermodulation products down!", since that's the likely cause of the OOBE problems everyone is having.
 
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Wed Nov 18, 2015 5:55 pm

Any update from Mikrotik on these FCC certifications?

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Re: UNII-2, Riddle Me This, Riddle Me That

Sun Jan 24, 2016 8:58 pm

Just checking in.

We're about to cycle out some old equipment.

It would be nice to hear from Mikrotik just some little "Still waiting on FCC for UNII 1 and 3, 2 is on hold" or something.
 
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Re: UNII-2, Riddle Me This, Riddle Me That

Sun Apr 03, 2016 10:48 pm

Awakening the topic again...

I see a couple of products, like the new grid dish, that state that they will have country-locked US versions with U-NII-1 and U-NII-3 only. That's not DFS, of course. But I don't even see those approvals on the FCC web site yet. Maybe the lab says they're pending. But there are no new MIkrotik 5 GHz devices with FCC approval in a long time.

March 1 has come and gone. It is no longer possible to get approval on 5 GHz for a DTS device (Part 15C). Only U-NII (Part 15E) is available. That has DFS and non-DFS frequencies, and the FCC has substantially loosened the out-of-band emission rules for U-NII-3 (not U-NII-1). But it still requires the country lock. As of June, it will be forbidden to sell 5 GHz radios without U-NII approval. If you like SXTs, stock up now! (It might still be legal to sell them to licensed ham radio operators, since Part 97 licensed ham frequencies overlap the 5 GHz unlicensed band, and Part 97 devices do not require type approval. But you don't want to sell these to the radio houses who currently install SXTs on unapproved frequencies.)

I get the feeling that MT does not consider the US to be a radio market worth worrying about. DFS (U-NII-2) would take a lot of effort.
 
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Re: UNII-2, Riddle Me This, Riddle Me That

Sun Apr 03, 2016 10:53 pm

Awakening the topic again...

I see a couple of products, like the new grid dish, that state that they will have country-locked US versions with U-NII-1 and U-NII-3 only. That's not DFS, of course. But I don't even see those approvals on the FCC web site yet. Maybe the lab says they're pending. But there are no new MIkrotik 5 GHz devices with FCC approval in a long time.

March 1 has come and gone. It is no longer possible to get approval on 5 GHz for a DTS device (Part 15C). Only U-NII (Part 15E) is available. That has DFS and non-DFS frequencies, and the FCC has substantially loosened the out-of-band emission rules for U-NII-3 (not U-NII-1). But it still requires the country lock. As of June, it will be forbidden to sell 5 GHz radios without U-NII approval. If you like SXTs, stock up now! (It might still be legal to sell them to licensed ham radio operators, since Part 97 licensed ham frequencies overlap the 5 GHz unlicensed band, and Part 97 devices do not require type approval. But you don't want to sell these to the radio houses who currently install SXTs on unapproved frequencies.)

I get the feeling that MT does not consider the US to be a radio market worth worrying about. DFS (U-NII-2) would take a lot of effort.
Weren't the deadlines extended again?
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Re: UNII-2, Riddle Me This, Riddle Me That

Sun Apr 03, 2016 11:54 pm

Weren't the deadlines extended again?
Common misconception. No, the dealine wasn't extended. What was extended were the specific technical requirements for out-of-band emissions on U-NII-3. It is now possible to get U-NII-3 certification for a device that meets old DTS OOBE rules. It' still a new cert, and requires the country lock, but it has really loose OOBE. The OOBE rules stay loose until 2017-2018 (depending on antenna gain), after which a new, quite reasonable emission mask takes effect for U-NII-3. Nothing changed for U-NII-1, though; its OOBE is still very strict. We're waiting to see if they change the test procedure (not a rule, so it's handled quietly by OET via the Knowledge Data Base test procedures) to get rid of the peak-hold rule, which makes OOBE values rather random.
 
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Re: UNII-2, Riddle Me This, Riddle Me That

Thu May 19, 2016 5:27 pm

Any updates?

The FCC page is horribly out of date. Most of the new MT hardware that is already in my office and some in the air isn't even on the site.

What about the Netmetal 5 ACs? Are they certified for UNII 1 and 3? I can't seem to find that info. Dynadish? QRT 5?
 
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Re: UNII-2, Riddle Me This, Riddle Me That

Thu May 19, 2016 6:26 pm

Any updates?

The FCC page is horribly out of date. Most of the new MT hardware that is already in my office and some in the air isn't even on the site.

What about the Netmetal 5 ACs? Are they certified for UNII 1 and 3? I can't seem to find that info. Dynadish? QRT 5?
The FCC page is in by no way out of date. If the device isn't there, it isn't certified. What bands they are certified for will be on that page.
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Re: UNII-2, Riddle Me This, Riddle Me That

Thu May 19, 2016 7:18 pm

Hammy's right. The FCC EAS site is querying its equipment approval database in real time. Since 15C approvals for 5 GHz were being given out until March, a fair amount of equipment might have come into the country under that rule. 15C does not require frequency-locking or country-locking. But you can't even sell that as of next month. 15E requires country-locking. So you can take a piece of 15C-approved gear and run it illegally outside of the U-NII-3 band that 15C covers, but soon MT will need the 15E approvals to even have it imported here.

I don't know what's keeping them.
 
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Re: UNII-2, Riddle Me This, Riddle Me That

Tue May 31, 2016 11:10 pm

Find any of the new MT hardware in there.

Could be I'm looking at a page they don't update any more, but the most recent MT info they have on the FCC page I was looking at was something like January of 2016.

https://www.fcc.gov/general/fcc-id-search-page
 
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Re: UNII-2, Riddle Me This, Riddle Me That

Wed Jun 01, 2016 12:55 am

From the FCC's 2014 U-NII Order (FCC 14-30), adopted April 1, 2014:
The manufacture, marketing, sale and importation into the United States of digitally modulated and hybrid devices certified under Section 15.247 operating in the 5.725-5.850 GHz band must cease two years after the effective date of this First R&O.
Which should be roughly tomorrow. Bye bye MikroTik radios.
 
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Re: UNII-2, Riddle Me This, Riddle Me That

Wed Jun 01, 2016 3:09 pm

Which should be roughly tomorrow.
Let me quote a newer document:
FCC were providing an alternative for manufacturers that require additional time to bring their U-NII-3 band devices into compliance with the new out-of-band limits adopted herein, They extend the deadline for certification of U-NII-3 band devices with more than 10dBi antenna gain to March 2, 2017.
The deadline for the manudacture, marketing, sale and importation of these devices is extended until March 2, 2018.
For devices with antenna gain of 10dBi or less, they implement a new certification deadline of march 2, 2018, and extended the deadline for the manufacture, marketing, sale and importation of devices not meeting the modified out-of-band limits until March 2, 2020
Source: https://apps.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attac ... 6-24A1.pdf
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Re: UNII-2, Riddle Me This, Riddle Me That

Wed Jun 01, 2016 3:21 pm

Which should be roughly tomorrow.
Let me quote a newer document:
FCC were providing an alternative for manufacturers that require additional time to bring their U-NII-3 band devices into compliance with the new out-of-band limits adopted herein, They extend the deadline for certification of U-NII-3 band devices with more than 10dBi antenna gain to March 2, 2017.
The deadline for the manufacture, marketing, sale and importation of these devices is extended until March 2, 2018.
For devices with antenna gain of 10dBi or less, they implement a new certification deadline of march 2, 2018, and extended the deadline for the manufacture, marketing, sale and importation of devices not meeting the modified out-of-band limits until March 2, 2020
That only changes the emissions mask and not the country-locked requirement. The security measures adopted in the 2014 ruling still stand.
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Re: UNII-2, Riddle Me This, Riddle Me That

Wed Jun 01, 2016 3:34 pm

country-locked requirement
All of our recent products are country locked.
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Re: UNII-2, Riddle Me This, Riddle Me That

Wed Jun 01, 2016 3:40 pm

You also need a U-NII FCC ID (this is sort of silly but they use different ones for 15.247 and 15.407) and certification of 15.407 compliance filed by the test lab on the FCC approval system. It should be easy to pass the tests (possibly just file the forms), since you have country locking and the grandfathered emission mask, but the 15.247 type approval has expired.
 
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Re: UNII-2, Riddle Me This, Riddle Me That

Fri Jun 03, 2016 10:03 am

U-NII FCC ID change is not required as our products meet the permissive change to
previously certified (5745-5825 MHz) equipment and add the U-NII-1 frequency
operation to these authorizations. This makes the older equipment compliant with the new requirements. The newer equipment that is beign certified right now will have the new FCC IDs
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