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hengst
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NV2 set cpe queue to 80% of wireless data rate

Sat Nov 25, 2017 12:16 pm

the key in AP (NV2) performance is always that

- the lowest signal client/data rate is in control of the total throughput.

so when a cpe maxes out on the connected datarate, it takes down the overall throughput of the AP


the way to avoid this is, is to hard set the queue on the client to lets say 80% of the possible wireless data rate and so protect the AP from dropping throughput.

what is the way to go here, write an script for cpe, or implement this in NV2 protocol on the station/cpe side.
 
hengst
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Re: NV2 set cpe queue to 80% of wireless data rate

Sat Nov 25, 2017 3:46 pm

ok i got a start of a script to play with, but am not a coder , so this needs some help from a script guru please.
:global check [/interface wireless registration-table get 0 rx-rate ]

:log info [:pick $check 0 3 ]

/queue simple set 0 max-limit=([:pick $check 0 3 ]-0.XX)


the goal is that the simple queue has to be set on the cpe wlan,
the queue limit is then adjusted every few seconds by script.
up and download of the queue should be lets say 80% of the connection data rates.
 
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Re: NV2 set cpe queue to 80% of wireless data rate

Sat Nov 25, 2017 4:37 pm

Very interesting topic.

I would like to see feedback and examples on this.

Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk
 
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Re: NV2 set cpe queue to 80% of wireless data rate

Sun Nov 26, 2017 12:40 am

the key in AP (NV2) performance is always that

- the lowest signal client/data rate is in control of the total throughput.

so when a cpe maxes out on the connected datarate, it takes down the overall throughput of the AP


the way to avoid this is, is to hard set the queue on the client to lets say 80% of the possible wireless data rate and so protect the AP from dropping throughput.

what is the way to go here, write an script for cpe, or implement this in NV2 protocol on the station/cpe side.
First can I ask where did you get this info ?
Also is not more complicated than just lowest signal/ data rate , how about SNR + noise floor + CCQ for calculation.
 
hengst
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Re: NV2 set cpe queue to 80% of wireless data rate

Sun Nov 26, 2017 4:45 pm

 
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Re: NV2 set cpe queue to 80% of wireless data rate

Sun Nov 26, 2017 7:12 pm

First can we really compare Cisco Meraki to Mikrotik NV2!
the key in AP (NV2) performance is always that

- the lowest signal client/data rate is in control of the total throughput.

so when a cpe maxes out on the connected datarate, it takes down the overall throughput of the AP
I have to disagree with this statement how can this occur on a TDMA wireless protocol (NV2),

For example there is a CPE on our network that is really on borderline signal drop out -82 to -89dbm, SNR =40dB CCQ=20/57%
It doesn’t have any major effect on the overall performance of that AP otherwise we would loads of calls from unhappy customers?
This customer has a growing forest in between him and the AP and as expected complains but only in the evening and it’s not network saturation but our assumption is that during the day the AP has extra timeslots available so he can get the required bandwidth to stream, but in the evening there is no extra timeslots available and suffers buffering,
On Reading
https://wiki.mikrotik.com/wiki/Manual:Nv2
“.. Nv2 is based on TDMA (Time Division Multiple Access) ..”
“…Nv2 implements dynamic rate selection on per-client basis and ARQ for data transmissions …”
https://wiki.mikrotik.com/wiki/Manual:N ... v2_network
• Reduced polling overhead - instead of polling each client, Nv2 AP broadcasts uplink schedule that assigns time to multiple clients, this can be considered "group polling" - no time is wasted for polling each client individually, leaving more time for actual data transmission. This improves throughput, especially in PtMP configurations.

Q. Does “multiple clients” mean all registered clients or say a group of 5 clients?

My opinion is that NV2 would benefit greatly if it was full duplex (looks like Cisco Meraki are trying full duplex on dual band) and NV2 management protocol speed was dynamic rather than currently fixed at 6Mbps rate.
 
hengst
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Re: NV2 set cpe queue to 80% of wireless data rate

Sun Nov 26, 2017 10:24 pm

First can we really compare Cisco Meraki to Mikrotik NV2!


its not about Meraki, and not to compare Meraki to Mikrotik , it is about Wifi basics.


Take this example.

1 Ap NV2 ( N protocol )

1 active client connected with Rx rate 52Mbps , will give you more or less 30Mbps with doing bandwidth test to AP ( so maxing out the connection )

so now the AP has more or less 30Mbps available to all clients

second client that is connected with Rx rate 139Mbps will only get the half of that 30Mbps because lowest connection rate is master when doing also banwidth test ( sfq interface queue on AP ) ,
so about 15Mbps to both clients.

now stop bandwidth test on first client and the second client will get his full throughput. ( more or less 100Mbps )

now when you set a local queue on client 1, to keep the wlan on 10Mbps so it can not max out Rx rate of 52Mbps
/queue simple
add max-limit=10M/10M name=queue1 target=wlan1
and do the same test, you will see that client 1 will get his 10Mbps and other client more or less 90Mbps

you can test your self with simple setup.

So you can have a low signal/Rx client without problem, it only gives problems to others when the are maxing out there Rx rate.
 
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Re: NV2 set cpe queue to 80% of wireless data rate

Sun Nov 26, 2017 11:05 pm

To get it "on topic"

i would love to see a script that can set a Simple queue based on the Rx-rate


how can help with that, as iam not a script guru but do understand the basics.
 
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Re: NV2 set cpe queue to 80% of wireless data rate

Tue Dec 05, 2017 1:21 pm

it is easy
after configure simple queue as you need
use this script
{ 
:local RX [/interface wireless registration-table get 0 rx-rate ]; 
:local QS [:pick $RX 0 [:find $RX "M"]]; 
/queue simple set 0 max-limit=((($QS / 10)*8)."M")
} 
 
hengst
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Re: NV2 set cpe queue to 80% of wireless data rate

Tue Dec 05, 2017 2:01 pm

Your the best !, learning a lot here.
 
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Re: NV2 set cpe queue to 80% of wireless data rate

Tue Dec 05, 2017 7:48 pm

:wink:
 
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Re: NV2 set cpe queue to 80% of wireless data rate

Thu Dec 07, 2017 12:34 am

the key in AP (NV2) performance is always that

- the lowest signal client/data rate is in control of the total throughput.

so when a cpe maxes out on the connected datarate, it takes down the overall throughput of the AP
@hengst I am sorry but cannot agree with your statement " - the lowest signal client/data rate is in control of the total throughput." is just not accurate, It maybe accurate for 802.11 but certainly not for NV2 TDMA because I have had faulty CPE's using a data rate of 1Mbps and only the customer with that very low data rate was complaining while none of the rest of other clients registered to that AP complained ?

Can someone give the throughput calculation for 1Mbps data rates and this shared with 30 Clients ?

Please check ;
viewtopic.php?f=7&t=128415

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=126028
 
hengst
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Re: NV2 set cpe queue to 80% of wireless data rate

Thu Dec 07, 2017 9:05 am

Please check ;
viewtopic.php?f=7&t=128415

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=126028
These might have suffered from other problems, i dont think you should compare them to this topic/issue .
( also correct data rates are only showing when there is actual data using the connection )

My topic is based on the question "Why my Ap has low total throughput"

the statement of " - the lowest signal client/data rate is in control of the total throughput. " is based on a simple test.

put up an AP with NV2 as TDMA protocol.

connect 1 client with higher data rate , and 1 client with low data rates.


now do bandwidth test on both and you will see that the lowest data rate is in control of total throughput of the AP.

the total is then shared amongst the connected 2 clients because of the sfq interface queue.

when set an queue half the data rate on the client with lowest data rate you will see a big gain in total throughput on the AP,

thats why i want to try this 80% script.
 
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Re: NV2 set cpe queue to 80% of wireless data rate

Thu Dec 07, 2017 11:00 am

make your experiment and share result in the forum
Best Regards
 
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Re: NV2 set cpe queue to 80% of wireless data rate

Thu Dec 07, 2017 12:04 pm

I also will await your detailed result of the experiment and would certainly welcome any "tweak" that could improve NV2 throughput ?
 
hengst
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Re: NV2 set cpe queue to 80% of wireless data rate

Sat Dec 09, 2017 11:49 am

So i had some playing with the script,

besides the script is very basic at this point, it does work to set the queue for some data rates.

( as seen in the script it will set the queue if data rate is 54Mbps , but not if it is 6.5Mbps )

and i was able to play with it.

long story short :

- Setting queue on client wlan to half the connection data-rate will help total throughput of the AP.

( or if you like "it will prevent the low data-rate cpe to degrade the overall AP throughput" )

the script needs work for better automation the process.


even better would be if a protection like that was build into the NV2 protocol



Probably the biggest issues in AP throughput are the basic wifi limitations,
active connected data-rates seems to affect total AP throughput big time.
 
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Re: NV2 set cpe queue to 80% of wireless data rate

Sat Dec 09, 2017 2:50 pm

RouterOS doesn't support floating numbers, so you have to eliminate point
Last edited by ADahi on Mon Dec 11, 2017 9:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Re: NV2 set cpe queue to 80% of wireless data rate

Tue Dec 12, 2017 8:31 am

try this one
{ 
:local RX [/interface wireless registration-table get 0 rx-rate ];
:if ([:find $RX "."]>=1 ) do={:set $RX ( [:pick $RX 0 [:find $RX "."]]+1 )} else={:set $RX [:pick $RX 0 [:find $RX "M"]]}; 
/queue simple set 0 max-limit=((($RX * 8) / 10)."M"); 
}

for logging
:log warning ("queue set to " . ((($RX * 8) / 10)."M"));
 
hengst
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Re: NV2 set cpe queue to 80% of wireless data rate

Tue Dec 12, 2017 1:01 pm

Thnx ADahi , think you make magic happen here.

after some testing i found using ccq is a better approach
{
:local CX [/interface wireless registration-table get 0 rx-ccq ];
/queue simple set 0 max-limit=((($CX * 5) / 10)."M");
}
one can play with the factor "5" , ideal would be that its dynamic to the ccq.

so if ccq is 20%, , the divide number would be 1 for example, and if ccq is 100% divide would be 9.


i see big improvements in test setup.

such a simple solution that makes big difference by preventing a client with low ccq degrading AP overall throughput.

now the script need to be fine tuned and run with scheduler or should it be looped script and only change queue if needed ?

also it needs to set up and down limits according to ccq up/down rates.

but it is big improvement for sure to AP throughput.

@Mikrotik programmers. is it not possible to integrate this approach in NV2 ?
 
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Re: NV2 set cpe queue to 80% of wireless data rate

Tue Dec 12, 2017 1:31 pm

nice lets try remove all queue and try set only hardware queue
/queue interface
set wlan1 queue=only-hardware-queue 

let me know the results.
many thanks
 
hengst
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Re: NV2 set cpe queue to 80% of wireless data rate

Tue Dec 12, 2017 3:11 pm

nice lets try remove all queue and try set only hardware queue
/queue interface
set wlan1 queue=only-hardware-queue 

let me know the results.
many thanks
i played with that a lot.

when doing so its very hard to predict the behavior ,

bottom line is that the connection how is maxing out , is the bottleneck for all others.

when using the script as it is at this point makes it already prevent clients maxing out there connection for whatever reason.
 
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Re: NV2 set cpe queue to 80% of wireless data rate

Tue Dec 12, 2017 4:29 pm

Thnx ADahi , think you make magic happen here.

after some testing i found using ccq is a better approach
{
:local CX [/interface wireless registration-table get 0 rx-ccq ];
/queue simple set 0 max-limit=((($CX * 5) / 10)."M");
}
one can play with the factor "5" , ideal would be that its dynamic to the ccq.

so if ccq is 20%, , the divide number would be 1 for example, and if ccq is 100% divide would be 9.


i see big improvements in test setup.

such a simple solution that makes big difference by preventing a client with low ccq degrading AP overall throughput.

now the script need to be fine tuned and run with scheduler or should it be looped script and only change queue if needed ?

also it needs to set up and down limits according to ccq up/down rates.

but it is big improvement for sure to AP throughput.

@Mikrotik programmers. is it not possible to integrate this approach in NV2 ?
It is encouraging to read you state this approach makes a big difference, however
(1) As ROS is mostly software based any extra function(s) which require constant CPU cycles which will result in a drop in performance with misleading results?
(2) NV2 only calculates CCQ when traffic is flowing, so will you have a cut off (CCQ less than 20% - do not run script!)
 
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Re: NV2 set cpe queue to 80% of wireless data rate

Tue Dec 12, 2017 4:31 pm

nice lets try remove all queue and try set only hardware queue
/queue interface
set wlan1 queue=only-hardware-queue 

let me know the results.
many thanks
i played with that a lot.

when doing so its very hard to predict the behavior ,

bottom line is that the connection how is maxing out , is the bottleneck for all others.

when using the script as it is at this point makes it already prevent clients maxing out there connection for whatever reason.
Is it possible to post before and after results when using the script?
 
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Re: NV2 set cpe queue to 80% of wireless data rate

Tue Dec 12, 2017 4:35 pm

@ADahi
sorry to hijack the topic thread but I am looking for a script to detect when 1Mbps data rates are being used by a CPE and print to a file?
 
hengst
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Re: NV2 set cpe queue to 80% of wireless data rate

Tue Dec 12, 2017 5:29 pm

It is encouraging to read you state this approach makes a big difference, however
(1) As ROS is mostly software based any extra function(s) which require constant CPU cycles which will result in a drop in performance with misleading results?
(2) NV2 only calculates CCQ when traffic is flowing, so will you have a cut off (CCQ less than 20% - do not run script!)

1. i dont se big diff in CPU on cpe ( with bandw test ( udp ) 30% )
2. ideal the script / queue max-limit would act dynamic to the ccq.

the whole purpose of this basic script is to prevent a cpe from degrading performance of the AP.

performance of the AP degrades to the client how is maxing out the connection.

my idea is that if non client is maxing out his connection limits , overall Ap performance is better.

i do test/play this with a simple AP and 2 clients setup.

i am not going to post loads of pictures and test reports . only summary of what i found.

anybody can test this at home and find test by itself.


copy/past the script / add scheduler with interval 10 sec , and your good to go.
{ 
:local CX [/interface wireless registration-table get [/interface wireless registration-table find interface="wlan1"] rx-ccq ];
:log info [$CX];
/queue simple set 0 max-limit=((($CX * 8) / 13)."M"); 
}
 
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Re: NV2 set cpe queue to 80% of wireless data rate

Tue Dec 12, 2017 6:43 pm

:?:
@ADahi
sorry to hijack the topic thread but I am looking for a script to detect when 1Mbps data rates are being used by a CPE and print to a file?


really, you are "Forum Guru", I should learn from you
are you serious?
 
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Re: NV2 set cpe queue to 80% of wireless data rate

Wed Dec 13, 2017 1:47 pm

:?:
@ADahi
sorry to hijack the topic thread but I am looking for a script to detect when 1Mbps data rates are being used by a CPE and print to a file?


really, you are "Forum Guru", I should learn from you
are you serious?
FYI
“Forum Guru” is a user (not staff) who has been helpful to other users? I have tried to be helpful to other users and this forum,
You will discover there is “Guru’s” (helpful users) in different sections like - Wireless networking, Scripting, forwarding protocols, ...etc.
And you will usually get good practical advice from them in those sections,
For me my main area of interest and forum activity has been Wireless Networking as a WISP user, my business has had me jumping from one technical area to another but maybe my New Year Resolution should be learning scripting in depth? :?
 
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Re: NV2 set cpe queue to 80% of wireless data rate

Wed Dec 13, 2017 7:45 pm

:?:
@ADahi
sorry to hijack the topic thread but I am looking for a script to detect when 1Mbps data rates are being used by a CPE and print to a file?


really, you are "Forum Guru", I should learn from you
are you serious?
FYI
“Forum Guru” is a user (not staff) who has been helpful to other users? I have tried to be helpful to other users and this forum,
You will discover there is “Guru’s” (helpful users) in different sections like - Wireless networking, Scripting, forwarding protocols, ...etc.
And you will usually get good practical advice from them in those sections,
For me my main area of interest and forum activity has been Wireless Networking as a WISP user, my business has had me jumping from one technical area to another but maybe my New Year Resolution should be learning scripting in depth? :?


ok, how can I help
explain your plan
 
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Re: NV2 set cpe queue to 80% of wireless data rate

Wed Dec 13, 2017 9:03 pm

:?:
@ADahi
sorry to hijack the topic thread but I am looking for a script to detect when 1Mbps data rates are being used by a CPE and print to a file?


really, you are "Forum Guru", I should learn from you
are you serious?
FYI
“Forum Guru” is a user (not staff) who has been helpful to other users? I have tried to be helpful to other users and this forum,
You will discover there is “Guru’s” (helpful users) in different sections like - Wireless networking, Scripting, forwarding protocols, ...etc.
And you will usually get good practical advice from them in those sections,
For me my main area of interest and forum activity has been Wireless Networking as a WISP user, my business has had me jumping from one technical area to another but maybe my New Year Resolution should be learning scripting in depth? :?


ok, how can I help
explain your plan
Great - Rather than continue on this thread (once again sorry for hijacking) can you check my post viewtopic.php?f=7&t=126028 this details the issue?
 
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Re: NV2 set cpe queue to 80% of wireless data rate

Thu Dec 14, 2017 8:59 am

@hengst
did you use this before?
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
 
hengst
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Re: NV2 set cpe queue to 80% of wireless data rate

Thu Dec 14, 2017 10:17 am

did you use this before?
yes i played/ing a lot with those settings every day. fixed 80% would be my choice.

most testing i do with udp stream, tonight i am going to do some more tcp testing with extra cpu power behind mikrotik.

i am trying to get clear picture of script impact / settings.
 
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Re: NV2 set cpe queue to 80% of wireless data rate

Thu Dec 14, 2017 12:47 pm

Alright,

i am sure it works now for udp/tcp
tested it with udp/tcp and some more clients with good and low signals/ccq.
( @ ADahi , seems to work best with NV2 set to dynamic 50% and not as i thought , with static 80. )


the script prevents the low ccq client from degrading the AP overall throughput.

one problem with the how this script handles the queuse setting is that it takes some packets every time to activate the queue.
so after every change in queue , the problem is back for a split second till queue kicks in.

so we might work out a better script or Mikrotik programmes this into NV2
 
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Re: NV2 set cpe queue to 80% of wireless data rate

Thu Dec 14, 2017 6:25 pm

After some experiments i think the meganism to queue low ccq clients could be done on AP side as well and might even work better.

you can for example set in access list a AP-tx-limit for low ccq clients.

i am not much of a coder, but this might be coded in NV2 protocol or AP interface queue ?
probably cant be done at AP with script without disconnecting client.
 
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Re: NV2 set cpe queue to 80% of wireless data rate

Mon Jan 29, 2018 2:48 pm

All right ,

To continue the search of a more dynamic solution to prevent bad signal clients take down to much of the AP throughput i found the easy way to limit clients with a max available throughput regarding to there signal.

just create some access list rules, and that is it. tweak as required ,
 0   mac-address=00:00:00:00:00:00 interface=wlan1 signal-range=-60..120 
     authentication=yes forwarding=no ap-tx-limit=50000000 client-tx-limit=0 
     private-algo=none private-key="" private-pre-shared-key="" 
     management-protection-key="" vlan-mode=no-tag vlan-id=1 

 1   mac-address=00:00:00:00:00:00 interface=wlan1 signal-range=-75..-60 
     authentication=yes forwarding=no ap-tx-limit=10000000 
     client-tx-limit=10000000 private-algo=none private-key="" 
     private-pre-shared-key="" management-protection-key="" vlan-mode=no-tag 
     vlan-id=1 

 2   mac-address=00:00:00:00:00:00 interface=wlan1 signal-range=-85..-75 
     authentication=yes forwarding=no ap-tx-limit=1000000 
     client-tx-limit=1000000 private-algo=none private-key="" 
     private-pre-shared-key="" management-protection-key="" vlan-mode=no-tag 
     vlan-id=1 
this way a client with bad signal can never take down the overall throughput

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