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Roaming in Station Mode - set signal threshold?

Fri Apr 21, 2023 9:54 am

Hi guys,

I have RBD52G in Station Mode. Roaming enabled, it works.

Looks like the device is roaming when Signal-Strength is below approximately -70dBm.

Is there any way how to change this threshold?

I see nicely how Signal-Strength is decreasing as we move and something like -65dBm would work better.
-70dBm is simply too low (in my case) as I'm already getting high latency (I see a nice correlation between the latency of my messages and Signal-Strength).

Thanks!
 
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Re: Roaming in Station Mode - set signal threshold?

Sat May 06, 2023 6:24 pm

No answer after weeks of waiting?
 
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Ca6ko
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Re: Roaming in Station Mode - set signal threshold?

Mon May 08, 2023 8:47 am

You probably phrased your question poorly, since no one wants to answer you.
Look in the direction of the connection list
I don't think changing the signal level will help you much. The problem lies on another plane.
 
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Re: Roaming in Station Mode - set signal threshold?

Wed Jun 14, 2023 3:34 pm

I'm a commercial customer, buying 300-500 pieces annually.

I expect someone from MikroTik will answer my question here. Is it a bad expectation? Should I use a different approach?

+I think I described my problem very well. It's a simple question, even yes/no would help.
 
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Re: Roaming in Station Mode - set signal threshold?

Wed Jun 14, 2023 3:56 pm

As commercial customer you should really be asking things through MT dealer (that you're dealing with) which will then tell MT how valuable customer you are.

As to roaming thresholds: absolute value can not be universally set because exact signal strength at which you want client to connect to another AP depends on WiFi network layout. Some may have it even higher, some might have it lower (and for those setting absolute threshold would mean loosing coverage continuity).
The proper thing would be to instruct radio receiver to start scanning for eligible APs at certain threshold and move over almost immediately when signal strength of another AP, belonging to same ESSID, gets higher than signal strength of currently connected AP (and it doesn't matter if this happens at -45dBm or at -85dBm).
The problem is that receiver can only scan for signal of other APs during inactivity time, it takes some time to properly tune receiver to different frequency, it takes some time to receive and decode beacons (and some APs have long beacon interval), and then tune back to "serving" AP in order to resume with connectivity. Ideally station should do all of that during scheduled inactivity time so that AP doesn't freak out if it has something for station in its buffer while station is trying to find a better AP to roam to.

The paragraph above only outlines the challenges ... true mobile technologies (e.g. LTE or 5g) have all of those things built in into basic specifications, also base stations aide terminals when performing these procedures (and even sets the thresholds at which terminals should perform individual procedures so it's not really up to terminals, it's MNO network design that drives mobility). In WiFi, OTOH, mobility is a joke (and the "mobility" extensions 802.11 r,k,v (and the rest) are only poor patchwork), so true seamless mobility in WiFi is simply not possible.
 
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Re: Roaming in Station Mode - set signal threshold?

Wed Jun 14, 2023 10:51 pm

I expect someone from MikroTik will answer my question here.
This is a technical forum where ordinary people write in their spare time. No one is obliged to answer you on the forums.
+I think I described my problem very well. It's a simple question, even yes/no would help.
I also think I have answered your question fully and completely. But it turns out you do not understand me.
Look in the direction of the connection list
.https://wiki.mikrotik.com/wiki/Manual:I ... nnect_List
Screenshot_5.jpg
You can limit the signal level at which the station can connect to the access point, but you need to ensure that the wifi signal covers the entire necessary area. For example set the minimum signal level -65, the station receives the signal from AP1 with the level -66 and respectively disconnected. After disconnection the station is looking for another access point, scans the air and gets the level of AP2 -67 level of AP3 -71, respectively, the station will not be able to connect anywhere.
But even if there is AP4 which level is -55, all the same while the station is reconnected to another access point there will be no connection and the delay at this time will increase. That is why I wrote that the solution to your problem probably lies in another plane.
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Re: Roaming in Station Mode - set signal threshold?

Thu Jun 15, 2023 6:27 pm

I expect someone from MikroTik will answer my question here.
This is a technical forum where ordinary people write in their spare time. No one is obliged to answer you on the forums.
+I think I described my problem very well. It's a simple question, even yes/no would help.
I also think I have answered your question fully and completely. But it turns out you do not understand me.
Look in the direction of the connection list
.https://wiki.mikrotik.com/wiki/Manual:I ... nnect_List
Screenshot_5.jpg
You can limit the signal level at which the station can connect to the access point, but you need to ensure that the wifi signal covers the entire necessary area. For example set the minimum signal level -65, the station receives the signal from AP1 with the level -66 and respectively disconnected. After disconnection the station is looking for another access point, scans the air and gets the level of AP2 -67 level of AP3 -71, respectively, the station will not be able to connect anywhere.
But even if there is AP4 which level is -55, all the same while the station is reconnected to another access point there will be no connection and the delay at this time will increase. That is why I wrote that the solution to your problem probably lies in another plane.
Connection List is useless, as it would not gonna cause roaming but the disconnect than connect. That is going to take about 7 seconds. I ve explained this in one of my posts while searching for a way how to lower the time of roaming.

I agree with you that the solution to problem lies in another plane. Mikrotik missed the train. Their products are not meant to be clients for moving robots / automation. They are , and always were meant to be used in enviroment that will consist of not moving devices.

As for my part, i ve never found a way how to tell him to start roaming sooner. So this is quite dead end unless someone from mikrotik is going to add few option that we can fiddle with to increase / decrease the signal at which your device starts to roam. Or even better to support fast roaming / handover.
 
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Re: Roaming in Station Mode - set signal threshold?

Thu Jun 15, 2023 7:20 pm

Connection List is useless...
As you described the problem is solved exactly with the Connect list.
The principle of the Wifi station holds on to the access point until the signal drops to -68. At this signal the station begins to look for an access point with better parameters if there is one it switches, if not it continues to hold on to the old access point. The best parameters include not only the signal level, there are several criteria. And as a result the user thinks that the station must switch over, because the signal from the other AP is stronger, while the station thinks it gets better speed at the old one. In this case the connection list rules will make the station disconnect from the first access point. And then the radio engineer's task is to design the network, to arrange the access points so that at the moment of disconnection in this place there was a signal from another access point with better parameters.
But usually on microtic the problem of small seam roaming is solved with the help of capsman.
Using an AC2 with a circular irregularity antenna of more than 10-12 dB as a mobile station is inherently wrong. https://ypylypenko.livejournal.com/89450.html
For the mobile station you need to use a device which has a good circular antenna. Usually an external antenna is used for this purpose. In the case of the built-in antenna of the mikrotik it is the devices of the omnitik series, here the circular irregularity of the antenna does not exceed 6-8 dB

PS Somewhere on the forum met that the user configured the mesh network on mikrotik and then the client could be registered to two access points simultaneously, but I did not do so can not confirm. Wifi speed in the case of a mesh network is significantly reduced.
 
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Re: Roaming in Station Mode - set signal threshold?

Mon Jun 19, 2023 10:17 am

Connection List is useless...
As you described the problem is solved exactly with the Connect list.
The principle of the Wifi station holds on to the access point until the signal drops to -68. At this signal the station begins to look for an access point with better parameters if there is one it switches, if not it continues to hold on to the old access point. The best parameters include not only the signal level, there are several criteria. And as a result the user thinks that the station must switch over, because the signal from the other AP is stronger, while the station thinks it gets better speed at the old one. In this case the connection list rules will make the station disconnect from the first access point. And then the radio engineer's task is to design the network, to arrange the access points so that at the moment of disconnection in this place there was a signal from another access point with better parameters.
But usually on microtic the problem of small seam roaming is solved with the help of capsman.
Using an AC2 with a circular irregularity antenna of more than 10-12 dB as a mobile station is inherently wrong. https://ypylypenko.livejournal.com/89450.html
For the mobile station you need to use a device which has a good circular antenna. Usually an external antenna is used for this purpose. In the case of the built-in antenna of the mikrotik it is the devices of the omnitik series, here the circular irregularity of the antenna does not exceed 6-8 dB

PS Somewhere on the forum met that the user configured the mesh network on mikrotik and then the client could be registered to two access points simultaneously, but I did not do so can not confirm. Wifi speed in the case of a mesh network is significantly reduced.
hmm maybe i wasnt clear enough. connect list is USELESS and it makes problem WORSE.
cause , when it finds better AP in connect list , its not roaming , as you said, it disconnects and than is trying to connect. Which takes time in seconds. About 7 seconds according to the logs in mikrotik. Thats a hell of slow , therefore useless. Antenas does not matter at this point, there is always ap around with -50 in range (according to the mkt wirelss stats)
 
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Re: Roaming in Station Mode - set signal threshold?

Mon Jun 19, 2023 1:20 pm

its not roaming
You put some kind of meaning in the concept of wifi roaming.
From the station's point of view, it is roaming.
If the station is roaming disabled, then the station will be connected to one access point and will not look for another access point until the connection is broken, only then the station will try to start a new connection. Scans the air and connects to an AP with a given SSID.
If the station is roaming, the station will search for another AP in the background when the signal level from the connected AP drops to -68-70, if it finds another AP with a better signal then the station will disconnect from the old AP and start the procedure of connecting to the new AP.
Inclusion of roaming mode on the station increases the signal delay, since part of the airtime is spent on scanning the air, and the weaker the signal from the swap, the delay is greater, as the data transmission rate is lower. No other advantages are given by the inclusion of roaming mode at the station.
https://wiki.mikrotik.com/wiki/Manual:I ... on-Roaming
The time it takes for the station to connect to a new access point varies depending on the data transmission speed and workload of the access point and can take up to 30 seconds, and in some cases may be up to 2 minutes. No change in station settings can reduce this time. It can only be reduced by changing the access point settings.
Significantly reduces the time of transition of the station to a new access point (up to the loss of 0-10 packets) is the transfer of the network of access points under the control of Capsman.
PS There are extensions to the 802.11 standard for roaming, but Hap ac2 does not support them.
 
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Re: Roaming in Station Mode - set signal threshold?

Mon Jun 19, 2023 2:20 pm

its not roaming
You put some kind of meaning in the concept of wifi roaming.
From the station's point of view, it is roaming.
If the station is roaming disabled, then the station will be connected to one access point and will not look for another access point until the connection is broken, only then the station will try to start a new connection. Scans the air and connects to an AP with a given SSID.
If the station is roaming, the station will search for another AP in the background when the signal level from the connected AP drops to -68-70, if it finds another AP with a better signal then the station will disconnect from the old AP and start the procedure of connecting to the new AP.
Inclusion of roaming mode on the station increases the signal delay, since part of the airtime is spent on scanning the air, and the weaker the signal from the swap, the delay is greater, as the data transmission rate is lower. No other advantages are given by the inclusion of roaming mode at the station.
https://wiki.mikrotik.com/wiki/Manual:I ... on-Roaming
The time it takes for the station to connect to a new access point varies depending on the data transmission speed and workload of the access point and can take up to 30 seconds, and in some cases may be up to 2 minutes. No change in station settings can reduce this time. It can only be reduced by changing the access point settings.
Significantly reduces the time of transition of the station to a new access point (up to the loss of 0-10 packets) is the transfer of the network of access points under the control of Capsman.
PS There are extensions to the 802.11 standard for roaming, but Hap ac2 does not support them.
Nobody cares how it looks like from stations point of view. Pay attention to how this thread started (quite similar to mine). Applications do matter, cause without them there is no need to connect.

roaming in mikrotiks meaning means "reconnect" from the logs point of view mean its been doing this for about 1 second. And this process cannot be adjusted like with any other os where you can simply adjust it (i want it to start at -65) or even support seamless roaming.

If you add connect list (like you suggested), it will take 7 seconds, cause its not roaming , its disconnect and than connect.

the configuration of 3 aps (in my test enviroment) got nothing to do with how mikrotik station handles roaming, cause mikrotik is doing it on its own. Does not support (from aps side , if i setup start migrating at -65 clients to other aps) - for mikrotik that would be a disconnect and it takes seconds...
If we add windows client to this equation , he is doing it much better way, cause he know how to do the seamless roaming since , XP ? and aps will make an handover between them, which mikrotik does not.

hence its not suitable for such a application where its taking seconds and mikrotik does not have till this day a solution to this problem.
And as you pointed out it can take up to 30 seconds even 2 minutes, .... so good reason to dump them and move on. Mikrotik was never meant to be used in moving robots / automatization, etc...

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